The Lovers or 2 of cups?

[Tiggy-cat]

I define the Lovers as: "At least one person here is powerfully attracted to the other, and will have to make a choice to be with that person or not; being with them will be difficult, but they will probably feel it is worth it in the long run."

I've never quite understood the use of the word "choice" in reference to the Lovers, until reading through this discussion, and now I see what people mean. I wonder though, if "decision" is a more descriptive term for the phenomenon being described?

 

[Thirteen]

Good word!

I've never quite understood the use of the word "choice" in reference to the Lovers, until reading through this discussion, and now I see what people mean. I wonder though, if "decision" is a more descriptive term for the phenomenon being described?

I think you're right! That's going in my notes!

As I said, some words we use for cards give readers the wrong idea. Like "wish card" for 9/Cups, and people think "hoo-ray! my fairy godmother is going to send me to the ball!" The card really should be labeled "satisfaction" which *can* come from getting what you wish (going to the ball), but can also come if you get something that's close enough (a chance to talk to the prince).

Likewise, I think that word "choice" for the Lovers really confuses people, because it has that either-or quality, as if you're dithering over what to have for lunch. I was thinking "making up your mind" but "decision" is much more concise. It gives the feeling that the choice has weight and matters to you. Which isn't to say that it might seem all that important to anyone else, but it it might to you. In fact, I wonder if the card might sometimes mean that we should give certain decisions *more* weight and thought and consideration.

For example, if we ask about picking someone off a dating site, and get the Lovers card, maybe it doesn't mean "you'll find true love in your pick" (which everyone excitedly hopes and wants it to mean), but rather, "Think some more before you decide." It's easy, in this day and age of such sites, to view picking someone with a "what the hell, he/she looks nice," attitude. I think the Lovers might be the deck's way of saying, in such situations, "This needs more thought. Don't decide until you can give it that."

Maybe?

 

[SweetSiren]

So, marriage is always about true love, and affairs are *always* about temptation, never true love? Lovers Card Story (in my view, at least): John Lennon met his first wife, Cynthia, when he was young and unknown. In spite of light affairs with other girls while on the road, he always returned to her. This romance I'd say was very 6/Cups. She was his "known joy." Liverpool born like him, his girlfriend from way back. A comfort zone. When she got pregnant, he married her, as that's what Liverpool lads did in those days when their girls got pregnant. Had his career in music fizzled, he probably would have lived out his life with her and their son in Liverpool, perfectly happy. But John became a global phenomenon. Now, he had plenty of quick affairs as the Beatles went from city to city. YOU would say that these affairs were the Lovers card, as they involved back staircases and service elevators. I'd argue that these were The Lovers rx only. Why? Because John never thought of leaving his wife. He had affair after affair and was never willing to change his status with Cynthia for any of them.

On meeting Yoko Ono, however, he was willing to do just about anything: divorce his wife, and bring the Beatle's break-up to a head. Yoko wasn't known or comfortable like Cynthia, quite the opposite. She was, however, an inspiration, an equal partner, his other half. She transformed him. He was so attached, that Yoko insisted they have a year off from each other so that they could create individually for a while. He was miserable the whole time. He begged her to come back to him, and gave up everything that he hadn't even considered giving up for Cynthia in order to get her to stay...including other women. That's right. No more affairs, he was faithful to her and only her from then on. This story, to me, is a prime example of "The Lovers" card.

So. I will totally agree that the Lovers can indicate an affair--and that's pretty alarming if you're Cynthia and it comes up in a reading about your husband. But why, exactly, do you think that "affair" can't mean "true love"? Men and women should marry for true love, but often they don't. And if they don't, then when they DO find true love...well, there's your affair. The Lovers, however is NOT about marriage or affairs (I can give you a personal, true Lovers story, my own, that was not an affair and did end in marriage--roughest time of my life, but I made the right choice; I bring this up so that no one thinks the Lovers is always about affairs, as you seem to be implying). The status of the Lovers doesn't matter to the card. All it's about for sure (IMHO) is that there will be true love, and that it won't be easy. Which is why, I think, we can all agree on that the Lovers choice is always a tough one, and we'd rather see the 2/Cups instead.

Applause!!

I see how people can get a little frantic with the lovers card. I know I do- because for me it's always indicated someone else. To put into your metaphor, I've always been the Cynthia, so I personally do not like this card. There was only once that it represented what you're talking about here, but it was surrounded by really wonderful and happy cards. I've yet to see such a lovely reading since!

So, when I think of my experiences, I can't blame people for having the affair association with this card. When I think of the few times the Lovers has shown up for me, odds are when it shows up, some bad news is headed for me. That's never been the case with 2 of cups.

 

[AzulParadiso]

With the Lovers there's always more than one person involved unlike with the 2 of Cups. That has always been my entire point, which is why when I make predictions it turns out correct. There are several major arcana cards much more positive to see when it comes to a strong and stable partnership.

 

[Thirteen]

With the Lovers there's always more than one person involved unlike with the 2 of Cups. That has always been my entire point, which is why when I make predictions it turns out correct. There are several major arcana cards much more positive to see when it comes to a strong and stable partnership.

Shrug. I don't see how being about two people makes the prediction inherently more correct, but, if we're talking correct predictions, I can claim exactly the same in regards to the Lovers card. I've predicted a strong and stable relationship in readings where the Lovers card appeared, and each time, it was spot on correct. I've predicted, in readings where the 2/Cups appeared, that this initial, emotional connection would be put to the test and might not survive those tests. These, too, were spot on correct.

My point being that a reader's experience of correct predictions is only evidence of how their deck caters to their biases in order to help them give more accurate readings. It's not evidence that any given card meaning is the most accurate way to read it. In fact, I can cast my mind back to readings where I got the 2/Cups, and if I'd predicted a lasting/stable relationship based on just that card, I'd have been flat-out wrong nearly 75% of the time. Where as, defining it as I did ("a potential relationship if...") was almost always right.

As for "positive...." The tarot isn't about right/wrong/positive/negative. It's about life. As we've both said, if you're Cynthia Lennon, asking the outcome of your husband's affair with Yoko, then the Lovers isn't "positive." It would accurately predict a stable and lasting relationship. Just not for you. And stable/lasting relationships aren't always a positive even if the card you get means that. If the 2/Cups turned up for a girl asking about her romantic and mutual attraction to a terrible criminal...would your response be: "You're going to be in a lasting, stable relationship with this crazy psychopath...how positive!"? The Lovers card, to me, says "we love who/what we love." And the 2/Cups says, to me, "there is a strong potential for a relationship between us, maybe we should pursue it." Whether those messages are positive/negative (and to whom) depends entirely, in my experience, on the situation.

 

[AzulParadiso]

As for "positive...." The tarot isn't about right/wrong/positive/negative. It's about life.

We'll have to agree to disagree. The Lovers has always come up to involve more than one person in my readings, from other readers (the same guy I was obsessed with, but I was in a long-term serious relationship with the father of my children) they too would also get Lovers repeatedly for me (but they would tell me how great this was and how we would end up together..yea ok!). I see the Tarot as being about right/wrong/positive or negative - just like in life there are negative and positive events.

It would accurately predict a stable and lasting relationship. Just not for you.

So we both agree the Lovers include third parties and it's linked to affairs. The 2 of Cups is about an emotional connection with just 2 people, not 3 or multiples. Again, way more positive outcomes and experiences with the 2 of Cups than the Lovers, sorry.

Realistically speaking if I get the 2 of Cups for a girl that has a mutual attraction to the criminal then I'll tell her the feelings are mutual. Unlike if the Lovers would show up..I'd have to break it to her that his heart doesn't belong to just her.

And stable/lasting relationships aren't always a positive even if the card you get means that.

I never stated this, or meant this - every relationship has problems and its ups and downs - that's common sense. I said there are BETTER (yes, positive) cards to predict a long-term stable partnership. The Lovers is sadly not one of them. The Lovers involves more than one person - a third party.

If I read for Cynthia Lennon and the Lovers shows up without her asking whether her husband is having an affair or not, I will bring this information up quickly without her telling me a word. I will already know that when the Lovers (and other cards - depends) shows up her husband isn't being faithful or exclusive to her.

The same when a client comes who is married. I instantly know without them telling me that they're married..how else would I know this without the interpretations of the cards being correct? It's why I see the Lovers as I do. It's not a positive card for an exclusive 1 on 1 relationship.

 

[yannie]

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[Tiggy-cat]

I think you're right! That's going in my notes!

As I said, some words we use for cards give readers the wrong idea. Like "wish card" for 9/Cups, and people think "hoo-ray! my fairy godmother is going to send me to the ball!" The card really should be labeled "satisfaction" which *can* come from getting what you wish (going to the ball), but can also come if you get something that's close enough (a chance to talk to the prince).

Likewise, I think that word "choice" for the Lovers really confuses people, because it has that either-or quality, as if you're dithering over what to have for lunch. I was thinking "making up your mind" but "decision" is much more concise. It gives the feeling that the choice has weight and matters to you. Which isn't to say that it might seem all that important to anyone else, but it it might to you. In fact, I wonder if the card might sometimes mean that we should give certain decisions *more* weight and thought and consideration.

For example, if we ask about picking someone off a dating site, and get the Lovers card, maybe it doesn't mean "you'll find true love in your pick" (which everyone excitedly hopes and wants it to mean), but rather, "Think some more before you decide." It's easy, in this day and age of such sites, to view picking someone with a "what the hell, he/she looks nice," attitude. I think the Lovers might be the deck's way of saying, in such situations, "This needs more thought. Don't decide until you can give it that."

Maybe?

Wow, thank you so much for the excellent clarification in this thread and these are some very helpful new interpretations for these that I had never thought of before. Very interesting.

 

[NatKat]

Lovers is a connection that affects your soul. You have no control over the fate of meeting this person. It was destined.

2 of Cups can be taken as "just a little romance." It's not a profound. It's something you have control over ... <snip>
)

Funny, I read these cards almost the opposite from what you describe.

For me, 2 cups has been a card of profound and committed love. It routinely appears in my spreads referencing my relationship with my life-mate. For me, it is a card of marriage or a marriage-type commitment.

Lovers I do NOT necessarily relate to committed love relationship. I see it more as a card of how polarity expresses through relationship. I often have it show-up when deciding to either deepen or abandon a relationship ... and often a friendship or business relationship at that!

Just goes to show ... we each develop our own Tarot "language".

 

[WondererW]

The Lovers card

This is such a great discussion!

For me, the Lovers shows up when I am deeply, irrevocably attracted to someone. I use the Mythic Tarot- and in this, Jason has to choose between 3 women who each have their own unique skills/ beauty.

Once, it showed up at a time in my life when I was deeply unhappy in my life and marriage due to work. I wasn't looking for a relationship. When I saw the card, I thought I would have to make a decision between work and family.

A week later, a new guy at work shows up who is exactly my 'type'. We were instantly attracted to each other but decided not to do anything about it although I'm sure we both thought about it lots.