The Moon: Association with Pisces?

[Yygdrasilian]

Dance of the Luminaries

It's very nice of you to hand me all these clues, but is there some reason you can't just say what you're trying to show me with them? I'm not a member of the Thoth club and haven't the scholarship to get what you're telling me without some help

So far as I can see, these references (1) tell me little to nothing about the beetle except that it might resemble the "fish bladder" shape. (2) Indicate that the relationship between the moon and Pisces is even more convoluted and requires way more knowledge than most beginners have, and so will continue to confuse. (3) Doesn't explain why the deck creators went for moon-related iconography more in tune with Cancer/Scorpio instead of Pisces. (4) Does suggest that the Moon card is the moon in eclipse (fish bladder shape) which is interesting and might help with the beetle connection. (5) And thank you very much. I now get the World card much better! I didn't know that Yoni was a Free Mason symbol.

Crowley’s thesis, as I understand it, was that Tarot serves as a pictorial key to Qabalah – matching the sequence of Hebrew’s 22 letters to the 0-XXI cards of the major arcana. Likewise, attributes derived from the Sepher Yetzirah’s partition of the alphabet into 3 mother, 7 double and 12 simple letters gave further correspondence to the 22 cards, assigning each to either an element (Fire, Air, Water), a “planet” (Moon, Mercury, Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn), or zodiacal house (Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Leo, Virgo, Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius, Capricorn, Aquarius, Pisces).

Yet, when applying this scheme to the “standard pattern” of Tarot, several noticeable inconsistencies stand out: “The Moon” card LA LUNA, which one would expect to correlate with one of the 7 double letters, is attributed the last simple letter instead: QOPH (Pisces). Elsewhere, the iconography of the Strength and Justice cards appear transposed, placing the Libra scales of LAMED where TETH’s lion of Leo ought to be, and vice-versa.

Thus, if there were any merit to Crowley’s thesis, these apparent inconsistencies between Tarot’s major arcana and the Hebrew letters would have been intended to serve some intentional, if ‘occult’, purpose. What, then, might it have been? One possibility resides in the occultation of Sun or Moon that occurs at an Eclipse – the cyclical aspects of which may be read in these seemingly ‘out-of-place’ cards. Here the assignation of “The Moon” to QOPH/Pisces may literally be seen in the emblem of that zodiacal house: Two Fish, as they relate both geometrically and numerologically to the Draconic Year.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year#Astronomical_years

Named for the Sun’s cyclical relationship to Earth’s lunar nodes (caput draconis ☊ Dragon Head and cauda draconis ☋ Dragon Tail), the Draconic Year is period of time it takes for the Sun’s relative position to ‘return’ to the same lunar node (☊:☊) = 346 days. As a lunar or solar eclipse may only occur when each is aligned with one of these nodes, there two eclipse seasons (each 173 days apart) during this Draconic (or Eclipse) Year when the Sun is either at the dragon’s head or its tail. Being the first three digits of the square root of three (1.73…), one might feasibly envision the number of days elapsed between eclipse seasons as a vesica piscis, or ‘fish vessel’ delineated by the overlap between 2 circles sharing a common radius. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesica_piscis

By this logic, two such ‘Fish’ may therefore be seen as a pictorial rendition of the Sun’s journey from Dragon Head to Tail, and from Tail back to Head again: 173 + 173 = 346

[Crowley’s elaboration with respect to The Emperor and The Star, transposing TZADDI (a fishhook) with HEH (a window), may therefore allude to an opening of one’s view to this means of ‘catching’ fish.]

But this would account for only the Sun’s cyclical contribution to the calculation of eclipses. For the Moon’s role in this dance of luminaries we may look to another artifice of numerology through combining all three of these seemingly inconsistent major arcana (XVIII, XI, VIII) and perhaps recognize something in common with the Saros cycle – a long-known recurrence of eclipses taking place every 18 years + 11 days + 8 hours (occurring 120˚longitude west from its previous occurrence).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saros_(astronomy)

Giving the beat period of Sun & Moon with respect to our “Dragon”. One may envision them as interweaving frequencies (akin to those depicted in the Crowley-Harris Moon card) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_(acoustics) or, similarly, by moving the astrological glyph for Cancer ️ ‘crabwise’ (as if Sun and Moon were orbiting an axis perpendicular to one’s line-of-sight), emerging from the ‘Water’ like the crustacean emblem of our Moon’s Realm seen in the Tarot de Marsailles’ LA LUNA – in effect reflecting below the syzygy taking place above. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/crabwise

Another way of reading the transposition of Leo & Libra I’ve considered plays off their essential dignities in astrology – that by ‘correcting’ them one sets a kind of alchemical puzzle into motion (akin to a game of mousetrap) where, by restoring the Realm of the Sun (“Gold”) and the Exaltation of Saturn (“Lead”) to their proper places, one may distill the ‘hidden stone’ by goading an ‘Ox’ into revealing the word of “God” (EL) whilst simultaneous balancing a double-helix of ‘Serpents’. But I digress…

Perhaps this interplay of dignities alludes to the measure of Saturn’s Greek counterpart Kronos (or ‘Time’ – specifically in its measurable sense, as opposed to Kairos, or Timing in its more opportune, fortunate sense) applied punningly to the marking out of certain cyclical durations between the Sun and this World – a weighing of numbers, so-to-speak, where the balance of luminaries serves to calibrate our calendrical understanding. In this respect, just as XVIII+XI+VIII may be reckoned as 1 Saros cycle, XIX may likewise be reckoned as the number of years comprising 1 Metonic cycle. Both are useful gauges for estimating the length of shorter, more useful units of Time’s measure.

1 Metonic cycle = 235 lunar synodic months = 254 lunar sidereal months = 255 lunar draconic months.
(19x 365.25) / 235 = 29.53 = 1 Lunar Synodic Month (Moon returns to Sun)
(19x 365.25) / 254 = 27.32 = 1 Lunar Sidereal Month (Moon returns to Stars)
(19x 365.25) / 255 = 27.21 = 1 Lunar Draconic Month (Moon returns to Node)

The Metonic cycle is also related to 2 less accurate subcycles:
8 Years (Octaeteris) ≈ 99 Lunar Synodic Months
11 Years ≈ 136 Lunar Synodic Months

1 Saros cycle = 223 lunar synodic months = 239 lunar anomalistic months = 242 lunar draconic months.
[(18x 365.25) + 11.3] / 223 = 29.53 = 1 Lunar Synodic Month (Moon returns to Sun)
[(18x 365.25) + 11.3] / 239 = 27.55 = 1 Lunar Anomalistic Month (Moon returns to Apogee)
[(18x 365.25) + 11.3] / 242 = 27.21 = 1 Lunar Draconic Month (Moon returns to Node)

231 = 0+1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13+14+15+16+17+18+19+20+21
223 = 231 – 8
239 = 231 + 8
242 = 231 + 11

Pisces and Cancer are also associated with the essential dignities of Jupiter, being respectively its Realm and Exaltation – which may allude to the assignation of KAPH/Jupiter to the Rota Fortuna insofar as 3 Saros cycles compose an Exeligmos, or ‘Turning-of-the-Wheel” whereby an eclipse would recur at the same longitude of the Earth as 3 Saroi earlier. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exeligmos

As regards the Twins beneath The Sun, one is encouraged to explore how combining the astrological glyphs for the Realms & Exiles of Jupiter & Mercury may fashion a diagram for finding the Golden Mean with a vesica piscis. Or, more exoterically, how one may use the cross between father and son to find their mutual ‘holy spirit’ through a certain miracle of fishes. Selah

☉ = ½ + (√5)/2
http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/DP03.jpg

 

[Thirteen]

Why is that crawdad going out creeping tonight ? Its not the phase of the moon its its position. Whether it can be seen or not the Moon regulates animal life and nature . But its the stations of the Moon; 0, 90, 180 .... Moonrise, Moon midheaven (IC) , Moonset, Moon 'underfoot' IC or Moon midnight. Fish feed at Moon midnight ... even in my indoor tank.

Ah! That helps. I mean, at least in making the connection between the Moon and fish as compared to the moon belonging to Cancer the Crab.

"That's ridiculous ... you old romantic .... shove over ... I'm hittin' it post-modern , "
< plays Vlastimir Trajković's Piano concerto in C-sharp major >
and what would that be ( Post modern you say ? < leans forward and lifts his listenin' horn to his ear > ) ?

LOL! I'm going to have to learn how to play the piano.

Well, not entirely - there are the twin children, which astrologically one would associate with Gemini

Fair enough. But unlike the Moon card, the Sun card isn't called "The Twins" and there are a lot of Sun-centric symbols surrounding the twins, emphasizing the point that the card is "the Sun" and not the twins.

I mentioned this before ..... if we make the Moon the Moon.
What do we do with Pisces and the HPS ?

Well, my argument wouldn't be to switch any astrological signs. That way leads to lunar madness But I do wonder about the name of the card and the central image being the moon. Couldn't it be called "Fish feeding time"

 

[Thirteen]

One possibility resides in the occultation of Sun or Moon that occurs at an Eclipse – the cyclical aspects of which may be read in these seemingly ‘out-of-place’ cards. Here the assignation of “The Moon” to QOPH/Pisces may literally be seen in the emblem of that zodiacal house: Two Fish, as they relate both geometrically and numerologically to the Draconic Year.

Ah. I see. It seems that a reoccurring theme of this card is that it's there for, as you say, the "out of place" things. The irregular moments when things are neither black nor white, but could be both or either.

[Crowley’s elaboration with respect to The Emperor and The Star, transposing TZADDI (a fishhook) with HEH (a window), may therefore allude to an opening of one’s view to this means of ‘catching’ fish.]

Nice point. I had forgotten about the fishhook and that certainly would relate to Pisces.

I'm very impressed by all the research and information. Thank you for your extensive explanations. They're very helpful.

 

[kwaw]

A
Fair enough. But unlike the Moon card, the Sun card isn't called "The Twins" and there are a lot of Sun-centric symbols surrounding the twins, emphasizing the point that the card is "the Sun" and not the twins.

And the Moon is called the Moon, not the fish, and includes a lot of Lunar-centric symbols. And the only reason the Sun is attributed to the Sun is because the GD re-attributed the single letters to make it fit according to their own ideas - they did not feel so comfortable about making up their own attributions for the double letters, so re-ordered the Strength and Justice trumps (which Crowey made changes to in the Thoth), but stopped short of applying the same reasoning to other seemingly mismatched trumps, such as the Moon. If they had followed the original (or least oldest) attributions of the single letters in the SY, then the sun would be attributed to the WoF and jupiter would be attributed to the Sun trump.

In Jewish kabbalistic Hebrew letter symbolism although Qoph is attributed to Pisces, it is also a Lunar letter, as it is the 19th letter, and relates to the 19 year cycle upon which the lunar calendar is based. It is also the basis for the calculation of Easter in the Christian calendar. Pisces (the fish as a symbol of Christ) as the end of the Solar cycle is analagous to the dark of the Moon as the end of the Lunar. The dark of the Moon lasts three days, which in Easter terms relates to the three days between Christ's death and resurrection. The Moon in Cancer in the GD relates to the Sun being in Pisces in the GD as related above, and this relates to Christ's three days in the tomb. In the Sun card the sun is depicted with the sign Gemini, and as this relates to the twins Romulus and Remus, one human and one divine, so it relates to the dual nature of Christ, as both human and divine, as witnessed by his death (the Moon, crucifixion, three days in the tomb), and resurrection (the Sun). Christ is the Son/Sun behind the Sun, the true light of the world.

 

[smw]

It is also the basis for the calculation of Easter in the Christian calendar. Pisces (the fish as a symbol of Christ) as the end of the Solar cycle is analagous to the dark of the Moon as the end of the Lunar. The dark of the Moon lasts three days, which in Easter terms relates to the three days between Christ's death and resurrection. The Moon in Cancer in the GD relates to the Sun being in Pisces in the GD as related above, and this relates to Christ's three days in the tomb. In the Sun card the sun is depicted with the sign Gemini, and as this relates to the twins Romulus and Remus, one human and one divine, so it relates to the dual nature of Christ, as both human and divine, as witnessed by his death (the Moon, crucifixion, three days in the tomb), and resurrection (the Sun). Christ is the Son/Sun behind the Sun, the true light of the world.

That is interesting and helpful. I was wondering why this bit in Liber777 reminded me of the crucifixion where Christ called out to the Father 'why have you forsaken' me at his darkest hour. (The solar disc carried by the beetle then might represent light and hope coming even though you might feel abandoned when at your lowest point).

The beetle is Kephra the Sun at mightnight who is shown travelling through the pool of night in Atu xviii (The Moon). Pisces moreover, is that greatest darkness before the dawn of the year in the parallel symbolism.There is also mystery in the fact that the beetle rolls up a ball of dung, thus constructing the Sun from the excrement of putrefaction. As it is written “it is from the rubbish heap of Chorozon that one selects the material for a God”. The Jackal also feeds on excrement.The sign Pisces represents the apparent stagnation of the Work, its final decomposition. And it is at this moment that it is brought by the Redeemer, who has descended into the lowest hell for the purpose- across the threshold in to the higher sphere. Note that it is because the condition of the experiment that the Work necessarily lends itself to every form of glamour and illusion

Pisces referred to as the final decomposition also brings to mind Death (Scorpio) for the necessary process of transformation. Crowley attributes the beetle to Scorpio for its colour as well as its associations for change through putrefaction.

 

[Babalon Jones]

http://https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pXiGzwhmCug

 

[Thirteen]

And the Moon is called the Moon, not the fish, and includes a lot of Lunar-centric symbols.

Yes. That's my point exactly.Everyone is talking about it being about midnight, and nighttime journeys, eclipses, wild creatures, etc. I don't have any issue with that being related to the Moon, myself, BUT all too many new readers say to me: "I don't read the moon card that way at all, because the moon is all bright and pretty and I don't understand why it should be about that stuff. And besides, it's astrologically Cancer not Pisces."

THAT is what I'm dealing with. The "moon" name and "moon centric" elements give readers a wrong idea. UNLIKE the Sun card and it's sun-centric elements which are, pretty much, what you see is what you get. Bright, sunny, clear, etc.

If the card was called "Midnight" I would likely have less explaining to do. As it is, I need to explain, and I'm trying to find ways to do that. I can't change the name (though Crowley seems to have been happen enough to do so with cards of his choosing), and I can't/won't alter the astrological assignment or typical meanings. But that doesn't mean I can't complain a little about how "deceptive" the card image/name is vs. what it's all really about. Maybe if readers lived villages where they'd be attacked by tigers or wolves or criminals if they went on moon-lit walks. But they don't, and as such Moon = pretty and magical and romantic.

So. It is, to them, at odds with its meaning—both name-wise and image wise. I'm here, asking all these questions, in hopes of finding way to meld the card's name and images with it's given meanings—meanings that once-upon-a-time everyone probably got and took for granted, as they held moonlit nights were dangerous and scary. But now, no so much. Yes?

 

[ravenest]

Yes. That's my point exactly.Everyone is talking about it being about midnight, and nighttime journeys, eclipses, wild creatures, etc. I don't have any issue with that being related to the Moon, myself, BUT all too many new readers say to me: "I don't read the moon card that way at all, because the moon is all bright and pretty and I don't understand why it should be about that stuff. And besides, it's astrologically Cancer not Pisces."

For 'Thoth Hermetics' , if I was asked what symbol best represents , , night, cycles of the Moon, fish. Pisces, dark Moon, Midnight, Moon IC ( 'underfoot' ), Kephra, darkness, reception ( or feminine ) , night time journey 'soul journey', the underworld .... Ummmm ... Moon ?

For not GD / Thoth Hermetics Tarot, I would be happy to have the card as Just 'Moon' and relate it to whatever I thought that meant ( dont forget , in general Tarot - outside of Thoth , like in UTC, a card can mean whatever one thinks it to means or wants it to mean

In another aspect, that is why, I suppose people make different decks , with different symbol sets and images and titles ... even changing the title of the Moon card .

THAT is what I'm dealing with. The "moon" name and "moon centric" elements give readers a wrong idea. UNLIKE the Sun card and it's sun-centric elements which are, pretty much, what you see is what you get. Bright, sunny, clear, etc.

But there isnt a wrong idea remember . Unless you use one of the systems, then you should stay in that. When one can understand it and navigate with it, then one might want to adapt to individual specifics or make one owns system . But like ;one's magical view of the Universe' it needs to be internally consistent, 'work' and meet certain tests.

That might sound complex, bu it is a very similar process to what we do when we develop and construct our own (usually unconsciously ) our 'psychological mazeways' - negative and positive .

https://books.google.com.au/books/about/Culture_and_personality.html?id=90zuAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y

If the card was called "Midnight" I would likely have less explaining to do. As it is, I need to explain, and I'm trying to find ways to do that. I can't change the name (though Crowley seems to have been happen enough to do so with cards of his choosing), and I can't/won't alter the astrological assignment or typical meanings. But that doesn't mean I can't complain a little about how "deceptive" the card image/name is vs. what it's all really about. Maybe if readers lived villages where they'd be attacked by tigers or wolves or criminals if they went on moon-lit walks. But they don't, and as such Moon = pretty and magical and romantic.

So. It is, to them, at odds with its meaning—both name-wise and image wise. I'm here, asking all these questions, in hopes of finding way to meld the card's name and images with it's given meanings—meanings that once-upon-a-time everyone probably got and took for granted, as they held moonlit nights were dangerous and scary. But now, no so much. Yes?

Tell them its a full solar eclipse .

Oh right ... they aint gonna get that .... tell them it is a full solar eclipse with the MOON obscuring the Sun, the dogs are going nuts and howling, a strange darkness is descending, people are running around confused and panicking, crayfish are half pooping out the water ; "What up ? " tis that time when .... " This is the time of night when witches come out, when graveyards yawn open and the stench of hell seeps out and breathes contagion into the world ..... I could drink hot blood and do such terrible deeds that people would tremble even in the daylight......

But I’ve got to go see my mother. ... "


(Wow ! Hamlet can really suddenly change the subject ! )

..... then the Moon passes and the Sun comes out ( next card )


My take is, you either accept a valid hermetic system and run with it .... or you dont. Make it "Moon". If people want to know why about some meanings in books, tell them they are based on the hermetic meaning, they can use that or not.

Sorry, but I just dont see the frustrating problem here ... if that is what it is ?

 

[foolMoon]

According to The Picatrix, The Moon's quality and influence changes depending on what phase she is in, and also her elongation from the Sun.

 

[Babalon Jones]

No one liked my fish joke? (You know Fred Rogers was a double Pisces, Sun and Moon in Pisces. Just sayin.)


How about this one: Two fish walk into a bar...


I like Ravenest's eclipse description, the part about the crayfish pops half up to ask "what up?" and the dogs go nuts and the wolves howl...