nisaba
<grin> Which I think was my point, too.
suit and element
<grin> Which I think was my point, too.
Whatsawhosit
Please allow me to reiterate and condense, there are such divergent paths leading away from this suit question.
---------------------------------------
I have a feeling there are even more ways that suits and elements are approached.
- Suits modify the element, allowing for a more specific reading. A second layer of detail so to speak.
- Suits may change the elemental designation completely ( this would appear to be more akin to not taking the element into account at all if it does not jive with the rest of the reading)
- Suits are specific (signs) while elements are a more abstract (symbols) of like concepts.
- Suits are correspondences for elements that are no longer perceived by current society for their original meanings. An evolution of symbols through cultures.
- Suits and/or elements represent the mood/emotional content . If one uses just suits or elements they fulfill identical functions.
---------------------------------------
I have a feeling there are even more ways that suits and elements are approached.
Nemia
Suits and elements belong to a whole map of associations, correspondences and interactions that underlies Western culture - and other cultures have similar maps, too.
It's the rule of the Four: 4 elements, 4 humours (cold or warm, dry or moist, in their combinations), 4 temperaments, 4 seasons (climate and astrononmy, also mythology), 4 directions, 4 mental functions, 4 faces of Ezekiel's creatures, 4 evangelists, 4 basic qualities of colour (light or dark, warm or cold), 4 basic qualities of human life (male or female, young or old.... obviously, there are some more ;-) ), the 4 quarters of a Cartesian coordinate system, the 4 phases of the moon, the 4 as base line of the tetractys, the perfect square of the Vitruvian man, 4 kabbalistic worlds ... and many products of culture have been designed according to them, whether it's Hotels 4 Seasons, pizza 4 seaons, 4 houses of Hogwarts or Fabulous 4. And the 3x4=12 is the basis of our timekeeping (day and year).
All this is well known and it's good to be aware of it. Our tarot suits are flexible enough and clear enough to remind us of this whole system, well-balaned, sometimes inconsistent or opposed to modern sensibilities
if we want to have it playing in the back of our minds like an Aeolian harp...
It's the rule of the Four: 4 elements, 4 humours (cold or warm, dry or moist, in their combinations), 4 temperaments, 4 seasons (climate and astrononmy, also mythology), 4 directions, 4 mental functions, 4 faces of Ezekiel's creatures, 4 evangelists, 4 basic qualities of colour (light or dark, warm or cold), 4 basic qualities of human life (male or female, young or old.... obviously, there are some more ;-) ), the 4 quarters of a Cartesian coordinate system, the 4 phases of the moon, the 4 as base line of the tetractys, the perfect square of the Vitruvian man, 4 kabbalistic worlds ... and many products of culture have been designed according to them, whether it's Hotels 4 Seasons, pizza 4 seaons, 4 houses of Hogwarts or Fabulous 4. And the 3x4=12 is the basis of our timekeeping (day and year).
All this is well known and it's good to be aware of it. Our tarot suits are flexible enough and clear enough to remind us of this whole system, well-balaned, sometimes inconsistent or opposed to modern sensibilities
if we want to have it playing in the back of our minds like an Aeolian harp...Zephyros
Beautifully said Nemia! It is true, and I think Tarot works so well with so many forms of symbolism because of that "rule of four." A religious person might say that it all stems from the Tetragrammaton, but that's yet another symbol, after all.
Barleywine
Here's some interesting visual food for thought from J.E. Cirlot's Dictionary of Symbols, in the section titled "Graphics." Of these symbols, Cirlot said:
". . . in order to decide upon the significance of any graphic figure, we must bear in mind the following factors: (a) its resemblance to figures of cosmic beings; (b) its shape, whether open or closed, regular or irregular, geometric or biomorphic; (c) the number of component elements making up the shape, together with the significance of this number; (d) the dominant 'rhythms' as the expression of its elemental, dynamic potential and its movement; (e) the spatial arrangement, or the disposition of its different zones(f) its proportions; (g) its colours, if any."
The advice on "rhythms" and "spatial arrangement" is something I'm going to take to heart in my study of the TdM pip cards. Elemetal correspondences have some commonality with these ideas too.
". . . in order to decide upon the significance of any graphic figure, we must bear in mind the following factors: (a) its resemblance to figures of cosmic beings; (b) its shape, whether open or closed, regular or irregular, geometric or biomorphic; (c) the number of component elements making up the shape, together with the significance of this number; (d) the dominant 'rhythms' as the expression of its elemental, dynamic potential and its movement; (e) the spatial arrangement, or the disposition of its different zones(f) its proportions; (g) its colours, if any."
The advice on "rhythms" and "spatial arrangement" is something I'm going to take to heart in my study of the TdM pip cards. Elemetal correspondences have some commonality with these ideas too.
Attachments
Whatsawhosit
a sword, a pentacle, a staff, a cup
From place to place and time to time the emotional response to these is going to vary to a great degree. As has been pointed out already there are near endless debates as to how playing card suits correspond to tarot suits, suits correspond to elements, suits correspond to the decans and quadrants of astrology.
It makes me wonder. A sword to one person can trigger concepts of war, anger, and the strife that life entails. A sword to another appeals to ones sense of valor, comradery, and other higher level emotional states. Another person with no experience with swords in warfare may view that image as a tool for profit.
The same goes for the other suits. For the sake of simplicity I am ignoring the fact that a saber, a sword, a knife, any one from a different origin or time would compound the variability of our responses to these images.
a circle with a cross through it represents the quarternery. This doesn't really appear to change, phoenecians, hebrews, greeks, persians, etc the list goes on all the way up to now if I show that to a person on the street after a few minutes of thought they will most likely ponder "four in one." this is a true symbol so archetypal in it's nature that it will strike a resonant thought in just about everyone.
the spatiality and rhythms of the pip cards is a most interesting topic. these criteria can be fulfilled with pictures of dots, or trees, chunks of rocks, just about anything. Perhaps rhythms within rhythms as one places minor cards in various orders describing different levels of spatiality and frequencies of rhythms?
From place to place and time to time the emotional response to these is going to vary to a great degree. As has been pointed out already there are near endless debates as to how playing card suits correspond to tarot suits, suits correspond to elements, suits correspond to the decans and quadrants of astrology.
It makes me wonder. A sword to one person can trigger concepts of war, anger, and the strife that life entails. A sword to another appeals to ones sense of valor, comradery, and other higher level emotional states. Another person with no experience with swords in warfare may view that image as a tool for profit.
The same goes for the other suits. For the sake of simplicity I am ignoring the fact that a saber, a sword, a knife, any one from a different origin or time would compound the variability of our responses to these images.
a circle with a cross through it represents the quarternery. This doesn't really appear to change, phoenecians, hebrews, greeks, persians, etc the list goes on all the way up to now if I show that to a person on the street after a few minutes of thought they will most likely ponder "four in one." this is a true symbol so archetypal in it's nature that it will strike a resonant thought in just about everyone.
the spatiality and rhythms of the pip cards is a most interesting topic. these criteria can be fulfilled with pictures of dots, or trees, chunks of rocks, just about anything. Perhaps rhythms within rhythms as one places minor cards in various orders describing different levels of spatiality and frequencies of rhythms?
Barleywine
I started working with these ideas today while considering the "odd number/even number" dichotomy in the TdM pip cards. I began weaving Cirlot's observations into my original elemental, astrological and numerical interpretations. It's getting interesting; I'll post my progress in the pip-card thread I started in the Marseille sub-forum earlier today.
Oh, and using chunks of rock to discern spatiality and rhythms seems to parallel the idea of casting stones in lithomancy. I've also seen it begin to emerge when I arrange the cards in various sub-categories as suggested by JMD in his TdM course-book and consider their visible and previously hidden interactions.
ETA: This thread is wandering OT. I'm going to stop helping to derail it.
Ace
I have always seen the suits as "Mood". The wands are business, the cups emotions, the Pentacles are money or power, the Swords are fears and sometimes actions.
So I don't see the elements in them really at all.
barb
So I don't see the elements in them really at all.
barb
Barleywine
I sometimes think of the suits (and the numbers) like the "play-by-play" commentary at a televised sporting event, and the elements (and other astrological correspondences) as the "color" commentary. But the elements are also much more ancient than the suit symbols, so maybe the elements should be considered as the root of the system and the suits as their outward expression. As an astrologer, I tend to see things that way anyway when I read the cards, especially when considering preponderences and deficiencies of particular energies in a spread.
