thoth

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 09 Sep 2001, and now archived in the Forum Library.

faunabay	09 Sep 2001
I have never liked this deck (too dark and intense) or Crowley. Whenever I had a chance to be around or flip through it I was always turned off. I still don't like it but lately it's been drawing me. Almost hitting me between the eyes - "pay attention to me!" Has anyone had this experience with the thoth deck or any others?

deso	09 Sep 2001
Unfortunately, I have the same reaction. I also have the deck but hardly use it. I bought it years ago when I was under the illusion (or glamour) of becoming a great Qabalist (LOL). But I just don't resonate with it - but I notice it no longer gives me the creeps. I just feel indifferent to it.

Dee 04	09 Sep 2001
Interestinggly, I never felt that this deck gave me the creeps. I have heard a lot of people mention that but I never knew what all the "creepy" stuff was about... (i know, i know.... some say b/c of Crowley's reputation,etc) However, this did not influence me. At first I wondered "what is wrong with me? why does this deck not scare me?" but then I realized that there was nothing wrong about feeling this way. People react differently to different things and these symbols speak to all of us differently. I agree that this deck kinda draws you in ....I guess that is why I like it so much. I agree that it is powerful! I am still curious about why people are turned off by it... I hear "too powerful and overwhelming" but I do not know in what sense. If any one wants to share.... :)

truthsayer	09 Sep 2001
i've never found the thoth overpowering or intimidating but some of my querents who knew its history didn't want me to give them a reading w/ it. my feeling has always been that it's a great deck. whether the deck is used in the present by its owner for good or evil is what's imp. i had one friend who had such bad feelings about aleister crowley, she tried in vain to talk me out of using it. evidently, it changed how she felt about me as a person for a while until she could come to some kind of internal acceptance that the cards aren't evil and something wasn't wrong w/ me b/c i was drawn to them. at the time i knew very little about crowley and the golden dawn. i just thought the cards were beautiful and i wanted to read w/ them. that was 15 years ago. i stopped reading w/ them 2 years ago b/c i was uncomfortable w/ what i read about crowley. that feeling is passing tho and i will prob be reading w/ it again soon.

faunabay	10 Sep 2001
I know people usually have very definite opinions on this deck. What I was really curious about though was - how can a deck I dislike quite a bit draw me at the same time? I've never had a deck do this. Oh I've had that happen with certain cards which I didn't like but I realized they were trying to tell me something I didn't want to hear. But a whole deck??

nexyjo	13 Sep 2001
i think there is either a thread about this, or was... anyway, i too found myself drawn to this deck. i finally bought it several months ago. when i started looking through it, the energy of the deck overwhelmed me. the power of the images was intense. so much so, that the cards begun to feel hot in my hands. i put it down, and haven't looked through it since. i've read a little of crowley, and while i appriciate his contributions, some of his stuff is just not me. yet, i guess i'm a bit ambivilent about him. certainly, he was heavily involved with the creation of his deck, but i don't think that's my issue with the deck. it's just too overpowering to me, and perhaps that has to do more with the artist than with him. i wouldn't say this deck doesn't resonate with me - in fact, it might be that it resonates too well. but for now, i don't know that i could read with it - it's like the images cause too much emotion to interpret into words. and to be perfectly honest, feeling the cards actually heat up was a bit unsettling... luv and light, nexy

joya250	14 Sep 2001
when I first became interested in tarot (around Dec. of this year), I went to my Dad and asked to borrow one of my mother's or his old decks. He gave me my choice out of the three he had - The Thoth, Rider Waite, and another, I think it was perhaps Marsalles, though I'm not sure. (I just remember it was small, with primary-type coloring.) I pawed through them all. When I opened the Thoth pack and flipped through the cards, I immediately felt a strong sense of "dislike." Later, I told my father that I didn't like the Thoth cards, at all. He responded that he wasn't surprized and pulled out a book about Crowley (think it may have been an autobiography, if one does exist) and told me a few things about Crowley that disturbed me. >> fast foward to current day... approx. 9 months later... I purchased the Thoth deck last week. I was intrigued by some of the remarks about it on the forums - but, more importantly, I have forgotten what I heard about Crowley! I know it wasn't good, but I can't remember what it was. ....something about his lifestyle... Upon opening the deck and inspecting the cards, I felt none of the previously experienced negativity. In fact, quite the reverese. I felt each card was expertly designed and their symbolism and patterns (esp. the minors) seeming almost hypnotic! I haven't worked with them yet. I am debating whether I should get a book - or allow them to impress their attributes onto me naturally. Does anyone have any reccommendations about this? I am also not consciously seeking any information on Crowley, as I do not want this information to taint the deck. I am also interested in hearing more of others' experiences with this deck.....

Dee 04	15 Sep 2001
"Almost Hypnotic" is the way I would also describe my experience with the Thoth. I really like this deck b/c it taps into my unconscious. It does so in a VERY different way than other cards such as my Soul Cards would, but ever nevertheless I feel it has this ability. Of and on I worry about that though. Crowley's reputation did not prevent me from getting the cards, but like Joya, I purposely stay away from reading stuff about Crowley b/c I do not want that to change my view on the cards.

deso	15 Sep 2001
I think the media and fundies made Crowley out to be far worse/demented than he was in truth. He was decidedly different! True to himself - and that takes a lot of guts! I've read Israel Regardie's book he wrote about him - he actually knew him - and it was a real eye-opener - intitled "The Third Eye". Still, if Crowley were alive today - I know I wouldn't want to associate with him. He was too intense - I really like "Light" people - full of joy and true contentment.

Strange2	16 Sep 2001
I got the Crowley-Harris Thoth deck in the late 70's, when I first started to explore magick. I'll admit to reading a *lot* of Crowley's works back then, and although on a personal level he appeared to be extreme, intense and egotistical, on a magickal level his works show an incredible depth of exploration and an unyielding dedication to live and learn and promote the mystical path. However, I also was a bit uncomfortable with the Crowley-Harris Thoth Tarot deck, and Tarot in general, so that deck sat unused on my shelf for over 20 years. This year I was looking for ways to jump-start my creative endeavours, and finally reached for the Thoth deck. I found that the images resonated very strongly and positively with me, and none of the negative "Crowley" connotations surfaced at all. I now use the Thoth deck as my primary reading deck, and spring-board from it to several other decks for comparative readings. The Thoth deck was a collaboration by both Aleister Crowley and Lady Frieda Harris, the artist. I find that Harris' evocative artwork on the Thoth deck is equally enticing and inspiring as is the depth of the insights that Crowley has given in the cards. For more info, discussion, and book reviews on the Crowley-Harris Thoth deck, check out the Tarot Inspiration site, at: http://www.geocities.com/Paris/2110/

orczy	17 Sep 2001
The best info on the Crowley deck is his own book, The Book of Thoth. This is certainly the best book on the kabbalistic tarot. Thye main problem with Crowley deck is you have to believe in other Crowleyien stuff, like The Book of the Law. That was a hard leap for me, so eventually I left the deck in it's box. When I used to use it, I found it great for readings of a spiritual nature, but useless if about something in everday life. I found the people I read for who wanted to use the deck were people who were more intense and emotional I guess.

Thirteen	19 Sep 2001
On the one hand, I think you're making far too much of Crowley's reputation. Compared to certain rock stars with their drugs and sexual exploits, he was a piker. Crowley got his rep, in part, thanks to the conservativism of his time when just about everything he did was bound to be shocking. He also got it thanks to his own desire to play the "bad boy" (calling himself "the Beast"). Not to say he was a nice guy or that you'd want to hang with him, but really, what is the very worst thing he did? Why does he scare you? Know why he doesn't scare me? I heard a recording of him chanting. It was done in his later years of course. Know what he sounded like? A little old Scottish grandmother. And there he was on the cover in his silly red robes, looking like a little Scowling Scotsman. Please! He's like one of those old men who scare little kids and then smirk about it. If you stand up to him, however, you find out that he's really pretty fascinating. Brilliant mind; you can learn a lot from him. But don't let him pull his tricks on you. He was never *that* bad or *that* scary. Now, on the other hand, I won't argue that he wasn't an intense, charismatic and very powerful mage, and I'm sure that comes through in the cards. It's what makes them scary when the art, NOT DONE BY CROWLEY, is lovely. The colors are bright, the images, in some cases, gentle. Have you thought that as much as Crowley is in that deck, so is the artist? Why don't you think she's calling to you as much as Crowley? One thing no one can argue, Crowley is the next step up in learning the tarot. RW is basic. But Crowley is graduate. Using his deck and reading his book on Tarot is like going through an intense graduate course on the subject. You never look at tarot the same, and you go to the next level up as a reader, at least, that was my experience--of course, the truely scary thing about learning more about the Tarot is that you begin to realize how little you know ;) Understand, I don't use the deck, I never did. But I learned from it, I still do. My thoughts on this deck calling to you--it's a challenge. You can let it scare you, or you can say, "Stop it grandpa! I'm here to learn, teach me!" I can attest that the lessons are well worth learning if you decide to go in that direction.

faunabay	20 Sep 2001
"Stop it Grandpa!"??? LOL Thirteen, that's great. After I stopped laughing I had to admit to myself you made a pretty good point. Alot of Crowley's "badness" was the time he lived in. I do agree he was probably pretty powerful, but in today's standards I don't think he'd be thought of as being terrible. I have used the deck a couple of times and gotten a pretty negative reading once and a positive one the next time. I do still believe it's trying to pass on some sort of knowledge, so will continue to use them as I can. But now whenever I get nervous I'll just think about ol' grandpa trying to scare the kiddies, get over it, and just concentrate on the knowledge being passed on, not the old "scarys". :) Thanks, Thirteen

ammegand	03 Oct 2001
This was the second deck I ever owned. I think that a lot of people tend to think that the deck is negative, or scary. Honestly, I think it is a balanced deck. or tries to be. meaning that there are both good and evil, but more importantly truthful cards. I was surprised to find a bit of support for this theory from the Tarot of the Spirit, by Joyce and Pamela Eakins. The TOS is heavily influenced by the Crowley-Harris deck, to the point where if you lay out all of the cards side by side you will perhaps see just 2 or 3 that are different in a major way. Anyway, the TOS is a good point for those that are a little uncomfortable with the Thoth. Another small point is that the imagery is presented in a fashion that is not to 'get a happy vibe' meaning that its not a light hearted tarot deck like some are, Osho Zen comes to mind (my most used deck BTW). Another thing is that the color on the US GAMES version is still horrid, though not as bad as it used to be, but still not as good as the Swiss version, which believe me makes so much difference that I could hardly believe that it was the same deck. The swiss version for those who do not know has real grey borders, not the greenish tinged borders the us games decks have. *this is really a major difference* Please try TOS if you have not, it will open Crowleys deck up to you, and open the Book of Thoth (book) up to you also. The Deck can be purchased through B+N for 5.00 right now, and the Book through discountnewage books.com for $7.00! which is about 1/2 price. The book I found to be very thought provoking, and well worth it, especially to those whom are beginning tarot who want a honest approach to how the Tarot works, scientifically, spiritually, psychologically. peace

truthsayer	03 Oct 2001
thirteen mentioned hearing a recording of crowley chanting. after i read that i remembered thinking how much i wanted to hear such a recording. well, i got my wish! on this show that's called the world's scariest places w/ host linda blair. they showed pictures of him at varous ages and times plus played the recording. it showed what some of his old hangouts look like today. one is in italy i believe. ppl are really scared of the place but apparently some ppl go there to do rituals still. it was interesting to hear and see these things but i wasn't bowled over by a sense of evil about him. i think he prob created that rep to keep curious ppl away. but i do feel even weirder reading w/ the thoth deck after seeing that show. i think that show helped me feel more in tune w/ what kind of person he was. if i were to meet him today i believe i wouldn't feel attracted to his spiritual methods at all. his beliefs and behaviors just don't fit in w/ who i am. perhaps this means i am most comfortable w/ decks and their creaters that reflect most accurately who and what i perceive myself to be. for example, i think i would enjoy meeting mary hanson-roberts or caitlin matthews b/c i relate to their decks so well.

Greenman	20 Oct 2001
hello, i'm the new guy. i have been working with the tarot seriously for about nine years now, and i own quite a few decks. many of them are interesting, but i work almost exclusively with the Thoth deck. alot of people have issues with Crowley, and understandably so. the man was an egotist, a womanizer, and an all around pr*ck. but he was also a genius, and if nothing else he did was worth a damn, his work with the tarot was, in my opinion, landmark. the Book of Thoth, one of his last writings, was the culmination of over thirty years of study. and again in my opinion, the Thoth deck is far and away the most remarkable work in the field. one must simply get past the unpleasant baggage that follows the man. but this deck is not entirely Crowley's triumph. we must not forget that Lady Frieda Harris was a very interesting character too. just to have been able to work in close quarters with AC for five years makes her a an amazing story! but her meeting with Crowley was not entirely accidental. she had been working with a number of fringe occult groups dealing in transcendental math, and this shows up quite intensely in the Thoth tarot. for more info on her and her interest in 'projective synthetic geometry' see; http://hungry.piranho.de/claas/olive_e.html you may see the Thoth tarot in a whole new light! it is so much more than just another system of divination.

truthsayer	20 Oct 2001
greenman, i really appreciate you posting the addy for that article. you are so right! it does throw an entirely different light on the thoth deck. i find myself curious to find out more about the life of lady frieda harris and the creation of the thoth deck. do you have any more websites you can share? i can't believe that i never noticed the use of geometry mixed in w/ the art of the thoth deck. the similarities b/t lady frieda's paintings and olive's geometry is astounding. it's good to know that frieda wasn't completely dominated by crowley in her creation of the thoth deck paintings. i think it's mary k. greer who wrote a book about the women of the golden dawn. i'm really burning to get the book and learn more about them! all i've ever read is about the men. it's interesting to note that the artist behind the rider waite deck is also a woman-pamela coleman smith. i realize it was a sign of the times that harris and smith didn't get the credit they were due for the tarot decks they helped create. it still bothers me. they had to of been remarkable women!!!!!

faunabay	21 Oct 2001
Fascinating Greenman. Thanks so much. I'm with truthsayer - please pass on other such articles if known. :) You know I'm going to be playing and laying out my cards now. lol

The thoth thread was originally posted on 09 Sep 2001 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.