Traditional European Tarot packs - rebels

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 08 Nov 2001, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Freddie	08 Nov 2001
I'm wondering if there are many here who use tarot decks like "Swiss 1JJ", "Ancient Italian tarots", "Tarot Classic", etc? You know the old fashioned decks with "no picture" pip cards. I like the idea of being a "rebel" and using different decks than my peers are currently using, but I admit I'm kind of sad that most of the newer tarot books don't deal with these types of decks at all. The Myers "Art Nouveu" is the only newer deck I can read with. All my books are old as the hills too. LOL...... The old fashioned decks are more mysterious looking in my humble opinion, but very hard to memorize. I studied the Rider-Waite deck (I've tried but can't read with it) and that helped me along the way. It has been a long hard climb for me to be able to easily read with these decks, but it has been worth every mintue of it. I'm sure those that have been there know what I'm talking about. Anybody else (rebels ?) here found a spiritual home with any of these "old style" decks? God Bless, Freddie

jmd	09 Nov 2001
Ah! You're not a rebel, sorry to disappoint you! There are MANY people who use those 'traditional European' decks, including myself... With regards to using them, the 'trick' is NOT to remember them, but to UNDERSTAND the cards as a whole and as they speak. It is also worth remembering that the modern plethora of decks ultimately derive from these decks, and are only truly Tarot when they follow the Marseilles type decks, with or without modifications (eg, swapping of VIII & XI, adding Hebrew letters, adding a zero to the Fool, duplication of some cards, etc): they have 22 Major Arcanas following a specific pattern, 16 courts and 40 pips... If you have already used Tarot for a while, then working with a woodcut series (Classic or Marseilles) should progressively become a breeze. I have taught numerous Tarot courses over the past 10 years, and I always bring a wide range of decks with me... but always relate them to either the Classic or a Marseilles (the 1JJ has some other cards changed, such as II, III, IIII and V). S. Kaplan (of US Games) has written a great little book to accompany the swiss based Tarot Classic (book by the same name). Very worth while reading. Depending on where you're coming from, there is also a deeply reverential book on Tarot written by a professed Catholic called 'Meditations on the Tarot: A Journey into Christian Hermeticism'. The author is anonymous (it was written in 1967 in French by the Russian born V. Tomberg), and published by Elements. If you're interested in such decks, then definitely get yourself a Marseilles deck!

EveAnna	09 Nov 2001
I also use the 1JJ Swiss deck, in the original french lol, but I didn't like the book by S Kaplan. My favourite deck is the Rider Waite and R/W clones, the Diamond deck for one. So when I use the 1JJ I tend to use R/W interpretations for the cards - seems to be working, I'm finding the 1JJ now to be as honest to work with as the R/W and the pips cards don't bother me at all. :)

Freddie	10 Nov 2001
I suppose I should have used the word "classic" instead of "traditional". I have been teased over using these types of decks. They are considered an out- moded collectable by some. I have been to many psychic shops and fairs around the midwest and I've never came across a "serious" reader using any of these decks. If "R/W-Thoth" (or one based on it)does it for some people the way "Soprafino" or "Tarot classic" does it for me, I think that's great. The "Swiss 1JJ" gets disrespected all the time and maybe Eve Annna (Hi) and myself are the only fans of the deck on this forum.. LOL ... I still love this deck after many years of use and it doesn't bother me that the majors are numbered out of order. I do relate to the idea of keeping the majors traditional, why fix it if it isn't broken. I plan to heed your advice and get a "Marceille" deck. I located a reconstructed deck by Camoin that I like. Do you recommend that one or another? Honestly I don't care much for the cards (the devil's nude parts really upset me for example) and I wonder if "Tarot Classic" is a good stand in for this deck? I just perfer the Kaplan deck, am I wrong in that? I am a fan of the "Tarot Classic" book and deck. It is in my top three decks (Soprafino, Swiss 1JJ too) of all time and I study the book at least once a week. I just got a hardcover edition, because I wore the paperback out. That book sounds great to me. Freddie

Melvis	10 Nov 2001
One deck that I really like that is more traditional is the Medieval Scapini Deck. It has that 'gold-plated' look that the very old Euro decks had, but it has illustrated minors that are depicted differently from the RW designs. While it has a 'medieval' look to it, some of the designs have a more modern feel to them. For example, the Seven of Wands shows people arguing over a tennis match! You can find a review of the deck at http://www.tarotpassages.com/scapini.htm My first deck had pip cards on it, which I didn't like, so I went out and found this deck at a local bookstore. I stopped using it for a while after I'd purchased a few more decks because it was a little difficult associating some of the imagery with the cards' meanings. But now, when I look at a post in the "Your Readings" Forum and see a list of cards there, guess which deck's images are the first to pop into my head? ;) I'd absorbed the meanings without realizing it at the time...trying too hard I guess! :D Peace, Melvis

Lee	10 Nov 2001
Hi, Freddie -- One deck I really like is the Fournier Marseilles. It has the traditional Marseilles images but with bright, vivid colors, and the faces look more natural. Fournier is a Spanish company, and the deck is unfortunately not available in the U.S. If you live in Europe, it might be easier to get. Wherever you live, you could probably order it from Alida or Somerville. Here's the website for Alida (I don't know the one for Somerville): http://alidastore.com You can see pictures of it here: http://www.tarotpassages.com/marsf.jpg -- Lee

jmd	11 Nov 2001
I agree that the Fournier Marseilles is excellent. Personally I am much taken by the re-vamped 1998 Camoin deck, though there are some minor details I would have prefered to not see. Probably the most common Marseilles is the one 'designed' by Marteau, generally referred to as the Grimaud Marseilles (Grimaud is the publisher) Another incredibly worthwhile deck is the reprint of the one found in the National Library in Paris, designed by Nicolas Conver in 1761. It is published by Heron (located in Bordeaux)... the details contained therein are absolutely sublime from an esoteric perspective (this is my opinion, which others may not share!) The Medieval Scapini IS a beautiful, and modern, non-traditional, deck (I have a copy of it, and truly like it... but... we're here talking of traditional decks) The 1JJ has the cards in the 'correct' order (let's not forget that in the earliest nearly complete deck, the cards were not in any obvious way assigned any numerical value). I too like, and occasionally have used, this deck which was, not so long ago, the most popular deck in use! II, III and others have the name and depiction of the card changed, for what can 'only' be assumed to be politically correct (at the time) reasons. If you can get the Fournier, Grimaud, Camoin and Heron Marseilles decks, get them all! If not, I would first get the oldest (the one published by Heron), then the Camoin, then either of the other two. I'm certain that interest in these traditional type decks will soon make a resurgence!

Greenman	11 Nov 2001
i'm surprised, no mention here yet of the Visconti Sforza deck. this is the most complete of all the 'classic' decks, with 76 of the original 78 cards extant. i love this deck, and use it more than any other when reading (something i don't do very often). however, i recommend getting the large Swiss version. there is a smaller version with the gold 'foil' printing, but the two reproduced cards (Devil and Death) are just weird, and don't match the original art style at all (especially the Devil).

jmd	11 Nov 2001
The Visconti Sforza is the deck I implied when I wrote, in brackets above, 'let's not forget that in the earliest nearly complete deck, the cards were not in any obvious way assigned any numerical value'... I should also have actually specified that I was referring to the Major arcana. They ARE beautiful, and I agree with Greenman about the style of the re-created cards not quite getting the same feel as the originals... The only 'problem' is, that the cards re-created were, I thought, XV the Devil and XVI the Tower (not XIII Death)... I could have a failing memory here. Also, the largest extant deck consisted of, again I thought, 74 out of the 78 cards... I'll have to either be corrected or correct myself later if I'm mistaken here. Greenman, is the Swiss printed version you are referring to published by US Games? I believe mine is... Again I'll check and correct this if I'm incorrect. It's also a very interesting deck as is was probably individually painted with Visconti and or Sforza individuals in mind, and possibly at the marriage of those two families. For this and other reasons, I don't personally consider it a traditional deck... though it is the earliest extant one! A wonderful deck to add to one's collection, but ultimately one painted probably not (in my opinion) for its internal esoteric minutia of detail... unlike the Marseilles versions. Incidently, some of the most wonderfully revealing Tarot meditations I have had, apart from the Marseilles decks, has been with this one... a reflection of myself as well as the deck, no doubt (many may prefer and hence have better results with other decks, the BOTA as an example). ...great thread...

Freddie	12 Nov 2001
The Visconti sforza has been on my "I want" list for a long time. They cost $40.00 here and that's alot of $$$ for a deck of cards. I have no doubt they are worth the price paid for them. I'm getting to the point where I'm done collecting decks, so maybe it's time to go out in style with this one. Freddie

catlin	12 Nov 2001
Hi, My second deck was the Marseilles and I learned a great deal with this deck but then I turned to the R/W deck just to descover that a lot of the recent decks which are published here in Germany return to the traditional style of the Visconti-Sforza et all. Personally I cling to the Sacred Circle deck at the moment but this may change in a few years.

Rusty Neon	13 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jmd Depending on where you're coming from, there is also a deeply reverential book on Tarot written by a professed Catholic called 'Meditations on the Tarot: A Journey into Christian Hermeticism'. The author is anonymous (it was written in 1967 in French by the Russian born V. Tomberg), and published by Elements. [/b] JMD ... Thanks for resolving something I've be curious about for a while. In _Meditations_, Tomberg references a Russian tarot-esoteric book by Shmakov that apparently has never been translated from Russian into another European language and I was wondering how Tomberg (who I thought was Francophone because _Meditations_ was originally written in French) would have been fluent enough in Russian to have waded through that 500 page tome. Alas, Shmakov's book sits on my bookshelf unread.

ihcoyc	13 Mar 2003
My first deck was the Swiss 1JJ. I learned to read by studying the Waite-Smith images in Eden Gray's book, and learning to relate those images to the cards I actually had. This was perhaps the best way to work it, since I got the visual cues provided by the Smith imagery without being tied down to it or becoming dependent on it. There is a small but persistent faction that insists on these decks. I prefer them myself, finding illustrated pips too forcing. Having human figures on every card diminishes the impact of the trumps and the court cards. My all time favourite deck, I would have to say, is the Tarot de Paris reproduction from the Bibliothève Nationale. It diverges substantially from the Marseilles tradition, and may relate more closely to the painted card tradition, but it has a unique strangeness I like. I also frequently use the Ancient Italian Tarot, which is basically the Marseilles redone in the Swiss 1JJ engraved style.

Rusty Neon	13 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by ihcoyc There is a small but persistent faction that insists on these decks. I prefer them myself, finding illustrated pips too forcing. Having human figures on every card diminishes the impact of the trumps and the court cards. Ironically, the illustrated Small Cards (2 to 10 of each suit) of the RWS strike and affect me so much, in terms of their individual images and archetypes, that I end up relating more to them than, and at the expense of, the major arcana and the courts. I often think of using the deck using just the Small Cards. Also, I find that with illustrated Small Cards, I usually don't relate to them as having a suit, and instead perceive them as being more or less like 36 non-suited cards. Only with the Aces and courts do I begin again to "see" the suits. With the TdM, I begin to see the Small Cards as being part of a given suit and I begin to see the courts as junior versions of the major arcana and as being related to the major arcana pictorially and in terms of archetype. With the TdM, you can really appreciate the drawing of a major arcana card in a spread as a more important and influential cards. Conversely, with the RWS, I tend to think of the major and minor arcanas as being of equal significance.

Cerulean	13 Mar 2003
Once, long ago, I've read posts by a reader who liked the IJJ Swiss for a long time---she was French and had Marseilles decks, she was just was used to reading with the IJJ Swiss. There's many versions of the Visconti out there...if I go look at TarotGarden.com or Alidastore.com, there's a European version...I'm not certain what their recreated cards might look like at all. Not Lo Scarabeo's version, it was one that looks old style. I believe you can see all the cards of the U.S. Games Cary Yale and Visconti Sforza versions at Tarot.com. Before you invest, you might want to see if their recreated cards work for you, if you are sensitive to wanting the style to be the same. Hope you have a good store nearby that might have a deck to look at, as well...does Amazon or an online vendor offer discounts or a used version in good condition that might assist in the cost? Best wishes, Mari...who won almost new (it seems unused) 1971 RW for $9.00 on E-Bay...

The Traditional European Tarot packs - rebels thread was originally posted on 08 Nov 2001 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.