Which Came First, Thoth or Rider Waite?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 26 Dec 2001, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Kiama	26 Dec 2001
I was wondering, which deck ws created (Not publishe) first, Rider Waite, or Crowley Thoth? Y'see, what confused me was the fact that the Thoth deck was published about 15 years after Crowley and Frieda died, so I don't know when it was created. Kiama

Lee	26 Dec 2001
Hi, Kiama -- The Rider-Waite was created in 1909. The Thoth deck was created in the early 1940's, I believe. Both Waite and Crowley were members of the Golden Dawn at the same time, I think, but Crowley was a lot younger. The Golden Dawn actually has a fascinating history, they were quite a bunch of characters who got involved in all sorts of scandals. There are a few books out there which maybe you can find in the library about the history of the Golden Dawn. Make sure it's an objective book, not one written to glorify the Golden Dawn, and you can read about the whole juicy story! :) -- Lee

Greenman	26 Dec 2001
i'm just finishing a book i received for Yule called "Aleister Crowley - The Beast Demystified". it's a rather objective biography, and contains some really wonderful anecdotes about his involvement with the Golden Dawn.

divinerguy	27 Dec 2001
According to the LWB which accompanies my Rider-Waite deck, the Rider-Waite deck took its present form in 1910. The intellectual property is that of Dr. Arthur Edward Waite (1857-1942). It is presumed by many that Waite and Crowley were contemporaries, and both members of the Order of The Golden Dawn. The artwork was by Pamela Colman Smith, a young American stage designer and illustrator, who is reported to have been also been a member of the Golden Dawn. Aleister Crowley published his Book of Thoth in 1944. Lady Freida Harris created the art work from 1938 through 1943. The most commonly used correspondences are from Lady Harris, who edited two different interpretations of the deck, based upon her familiarity with Crowley's writings. The deck itself was not published until 1969, when Major Grady McMurtry of the Ordo Templi Orientis arranged for photography and publication. The quality of the original publication, however, was poor. I imagine these original decks would be quite a collector's item. In 1977, the original Harris paintings were again photographed. Most of the modern Thoth decks are based upon color separations prepared in 1986. Hope this answers your question. Gary

Kiama	27 Dec 2001
Thankyou all very much: That certainly clears it all up. But here's another question... How far was Crowley influenced by the Rider Waite deck, if at all? Kiama

Lee	27 Dec 2001
I don't think Crowley was influenced by Waite at all, except perhaps very indirectly. Crowley hated both Waite and Waite's deck, thinking them simplistic and silly. Needless to say, I don't necessarily agree with Crowley about that! :) -- Lee

The Which Came First, Thoth or Rider Waite? thread was originally posted on 26 Dec 2001 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.