Help me pick a deck

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 21 Jan 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Geenius at Wrok	21 Jan 2002
I'm looking for a new deck for my own personal use. I want a deck that meets the following criteria: [unorder=disc][#]complete (not majors-only) [#]uses Rider-Waite imagery, or at least adaptations of it [#]integrates titling/typography well [#]doesn't look dated [#]doesn't alter traditional names of cards [#]isn't cutesy/faerie/goddessy, isn't childish (pastel, poorly proportioned, hokey or prurient imagery), isn't sloppy (like too many digitally rendered decks) [/unorder] With all due respect to Solandia and the hard work she puts into this site, I can't rely on her star ratings, because they seem to be given out in direct proportion to a deck's resemblance to the work of Susan Seddon Boulet. And of all the "Top 10" decks, the only one I like at all is the World Spirit deck. (I particularly dislike the Robin Wood, which I find dated and juvenile.) Decks I do like very much (based on their artistic style, not necessarily their content) include: [unorder=disc][#]Amber Tarot [#]Basic Tarot [#]Chinese Tarot [#]Mage: The Ascension (especially the typography) [#]Old English [#]Renaissance (Brian Williams', not the other one) [#]Royal Fez [#]Tarot of the Saints [#]TarotNova (my favorite of the Aeclectic decks, hands-down . . . too bad it's not available yet) [#]Tarocchi Storico [#]Tempest [#]Ukiyoe (I actually own this one, love it and would have no need of another if its minors weren't just spot cards . . . I want the scenes) [#]Vertigo [#]World Spirit [#]. . . and, ummm, Stick Figure :) [/unorder] All these are blown away, though, by the Dovilio Brero and the Tarocchi Romantici, which are displayed at Tarot Garden . . . too bad they're both out-of-print majors-only decks! The Tarocchi Guttuso and Tarot de la Réa, also at Tarot Garden, are really nice as well. Finally, the Aquarian Tarot, while dated in its artwork and typography, is very much the kind of thing I'm interested in. And I really like the concept of the Rock & Roll Tarot, but the execution is too choppy for me. OK, experts, lend me your wisdom. Do any of the decks that appeal to me (I haven't seen any of them firsthand, only through this site) meet all my criteria? Are there any other decks I should be checking out, based on my tastes?

fairyhedgehog	21 Jan 2002
Hi GaW, I have the feeling that, like many of us, you are searching for that perfect deck. You have quite a long list of possibles and I'm thinking maybe that you will just have to take the plunge and try one of them. All the decks I like fail at your 'not cutesy not childish' hurdle (although I wouldn't have put 'prurient images' under childish ;) ) as I tend to like the Hanson Roberts style decks. By the way, I think you're being rather hard on Solandia. Have you tried looking at decks with 4 or more stars? I thought they were a pretty varied bunch. (Not that I looked at all of them, I admit.) If any of us thinks a review or summary doesn't reflect our view of a deck we are always free to review the deck ourselves. Hope you find what you are looking for :) All the best, FH

Jewel	21 Jan 2002
I read your previous post about the element correspondences so I guess I have a couple of questions for you before opening my mouth with any suggestions. My questions are: 1) Which elemental correspondence are you more comfortable with ... air/swords - wands/fire? or vice versa? 2) Do you have a preference regarding Justice and Strength correspondences? These two questions alone will get you different suggestions as to which decks you might want to check into. Also, several of the decks you noted have pip cards for the minor arcana (not pictures like the Raider-Waite). Another site you might wish to check out is www.wicce.com. There you will find full reviews of the decks as well as pictures. All we can do is provide you with suggestions in regards to decks we know of. The bottom line is that you are the only EXPERT on you ... not us. If you liked the Aquarian you might want to check out the New Palladini ... same author, nice colors.

Geenius at Wrok	21 Jan 2002
Quote: fairyhedgehog (22 Jan, 2002 06:26): I have the feeling that, like many of us, you are searching for that perfect deck. Bingo! :) Or at any rate an attractive deck that meets my basic criteria. As for "taking the plunge," I've posted my query so that I can at least take an informed plunge. Quote: Jewel (22 Jan, 2002 06:31): 1) Which elemental correspondence are you more comfortable with ... air/swords - wands/fire? or vice versa? 2) Do you have a preference regarding Justice and Strength correspondences? I don't really care which way the elemental correspondences go. I was surprised to discover that the current consensus is rods = fire, coins = earth, swords = air, but it's not something I'm going to get intensely hung up over. Similarly, I don't care whether Justice is VIII and Strength is XI or vice versa, just as long as they're called "Justice" and "Strength." Quote: Also, several of the decks you noted have pip cards for the minor arcana (not pictures like the Raider-Waite). Yeah, I figured that, and I don't know which are which except based on the image clips. That's one of the data I'd hoped folks here could provide. Quote: If you liked the Aquarian you might want to check out the New Palladini ... same author, nice colors. I'm familiar with the New Palladini already, and I actually don't like it as much as the Aquarian. While it is less dated, I think the labeling of the cards isn't especially attractive, the composition of the images is weaker, and the figures in the images are poorly proportioned. Give me the old Palladini over the new!

Liliana	21 Jan 2002
I know of a back and white one you may like, its limited edition, only available from the artist, and he only has 40 copies left. I need to order one yet. His majors are more thoth influenced, but his minors are definately rider waite. I plan on getting it to color, which im sure destroys collectors value. But it is inexpensive, cant say that about many limited editions. Anyway, it's at http://www.crossroads.wild.net.au/tarot.htm , even if you don't like it, everyones got to check out the tower and the wheel cards, oh theres a `review at www.tarotpassages.com that shows the hermit. i was drawn in by the queen of cups myself, i often associate with her and she looks alot like me

divinerguy	21 Jan 2002
Try the Cosmic Tarot by Norbert Losche. Decent artwork, not a theme deck, not cutesy, reasonably mainstream. Gary

faunabay	21 Jan 2002
Ok first let's go through the decks you listed as possiblities that I know..... Chinese - very cool deck. I don't have it, but have flipped through it. If I remember right some of the titles have been changed. If someone else knows for sure, please correct me. I think the minors are not wands, cups, etc. They are black turtles, green dragons, etc. Mage: the ascension - Again I don't have but have flipped through. It's not a true tarot deck. It was made to be used in a role playing game. But I agree the cards are very interesting. Renaissance - Has pips instead of illustrated minors Old English - Has pips instead of illustrated minors. Tarocchi Storico - Is out of print as far as I know. I looked it up as I LOVED it too. As for some suggestions.... Alchemical Tarot Arcus Arcanum (I know I spelled that wrong) Voyager (collage deck?) Cosmic Tribe (thoth based, but very cool) Cosmic Tarot

Geenius at Wrok	22 Jan 2002
Thanks for the feedback so far. My responses: Quote: faunabay (22 Jan, 2002 12:28): Chinese - very cool deck. I don't have it, but have flipped through it. If I remember right some of the titles have been changed. If someone else knows for sure, please correct me. I think the minors are not wands, cups, etc. They are black turtles, green dragons, etc. Ahhh, that's a bummer. I'm a big Asiaphile, and I'd have been very interested in that deck. The Renaissance and Old English having pip minors, also a bummer. Quote: Tarocchi Storico - Is out of print as far as I know. I looked it up as I LOVED it too. The same artist has another "Storico" deck available through Tarot Garden, but it's $90, and the minors are pip cards. :-( Still, the style is dazzling. Quote: As for some suggestions.... Alchemical Tarot Arcus Arcanum (I know I spelled that wrong) Voyager (collage deck?) Cosmic Tribe (thoth based, but very cool) Cosmic Tarot You know, I was leaning toward the Alchemical—I love Robert Place's style in the Tarot of the Saints deck—but then I saw the Star card, with the woman shooting milk out of one breast and blood out of the other, and it creeped me out. I know the Star is sort of a "bad news" card, but jeez. Arcus Arcanum (you spelled it right!): The style looks a little funny to me, like the illustrations were originally done for a D&D module. Voyager futzes with card names in ways I don't like. Cosmic Tribe: Burning Man meets Photoshop. Ew. ;-) Cosmic Tarot, which divinerguy also recommended: Mixed feelings. I like the Death and Wheel of Fortune cards a lot, the others not so much. Can't quite put my finger on why, though. I also like the way the cards are labeled. If you've got any other suggestions, faunabay, I'd love to hear them. As for Liliana's Book ov Chaos deck, it's the diametric opposite of everything I'm looking for. Sketch-pad quality, chock-full of badly proportioned naked people, with no Rider-Waite connection at all. This is why reading comprehension is so important. ;-)

faunabay	22 Jan 2002
This is why reading comprehension is so important. Geenius - nobody will give you any more suggestions if you don't play nice. :) Just another suggestion. :*

Geenius at Wrok	22 Jan 2002
Quote: faunabay (23 Jan, 2002 03:27): Geenius - nobody will give you any more suggestions if you don't play nice. Ummm . . . it's tough love! That's it! :) Seriously, even though I'm picking all these suggestions apart, I am sincerely grateful for them. What can I say? Like fairyhedgehog said, I'm looking for the Perfect Deck. Keep 'em coming, please.

Liliana	22 Jan 2002
I said the MINORS are rider waite, the MAJORS are thoth like, im sure you didnt even scroll to the bottom to see the minors, yes, that is why reading, period, is important. Some people

Jewel	22 Jan 2002
GaW, You do seem abbrasive in your responses and if you keep that up I think you will start to experience "tough love" as you put it vs. dishing it out. With that said here is some additional information for you based on previous posts: 1) Amber Tarot - pips for minors $150 - Definetly on my wish list. 2) World Spirit - I believe there is a thread on this deck you may want to dig out of the archives and read. If I am not mistaken that deck is getting rave reviews by people here that are using it. 3) Mage - This was created for an RPG, but you can read its review at www.wicce.com. I have this deck and it is very nice, but the suits are not traditional and if you do not know much or anything about the RPG Mage I think this deck would be of little use to you. It is also very "dark" in nature as it is set in the World of Darkness. It is also incorporates other RPGs from White Wolf. If you are White Wolf fan you would probably enjoy adding it to your collection (if you decide to have one). 4) The Arcus Arcanum I believe is out of print. Decks that you may want to check out: - Ancestral Path - Hudes Tarot - Ancient Minchiati Eturia (by same artist as the Alchemical Tarot) - Morgan-Greer - Spiral Tarot And FYI ... the Star card is usually considered a very positive card, not a negative one ;)

Jewel	22 Jan 2002
- Ancient Minchiati Eturia (by same artist as the Alchemical Tarot) [/quote] Sorry my mistake - the deck I meant was The Minchiate Tarot and it is by Brian Williams.

Geenius at Wrok	22 Jan 2002
Quote: Jewel (23 Jan, 2002 05:52): - Ancestral Path - Hudes Tarot - Ancient Minchiati Eturia (by same artist as the Alchemical Tarot) - Morgan-Greer - Spiral Tarot I'm not real taken with the style of art on the Ancestral or the Hudes, or the Ancestral's use of "Sacred Circles" (I'd prefer plain ol' discs/pentacles). The Morgan-Greer is very dated, and the typography is rather weak; if I wanted a deck in that style, I'd get the Aquarian, which I think is executed more cleanly. The Spiral is closer to the mark, but the Aeclectic images are very fuzzy—are the cards themselves that fuzzy, or is it just a low-res scan? Minchiate: Now you're talking! I like the style of this deck a lot. Unfortunately, it's got very nonstandard majors and pip minors. I might get it just for my own enjoyment, but not as my "default" deck. We're definitely getting warmer, though! Quote: And FYI ... the Star card is usually considered a very positive card, not a negative one ;) Really? I was given to understand otherwise. That makes the picture even creepier, then, doesn't it?

Jewel	22 Jan 2002
Quote: Geenius at Wrok (23 Jan, 2002 07:44): Quote: Jewel (23 Jan, 2002 05:52): The Spiral is closer to the mark, but the Aeclectic images are very fuzzy—are the cards themselves that fuzzy, or is it just a low-res scan? check out www.wicce.com - also read the review. Minchiate: Now you're talking! I like the style of this deck a lot. Unfortunately, it's got very nonstandard majors and pip minors. I might get it just for my own enjoyment, but not as my "default" deck. We're definitely getting warmer, though![/quote] You could always take out the zodiacal and elemental cards. The Minchiate by Williams has pips and scenes. Please read the review at www.wicce.com it is very very good. Quote: Really? I was given to understand otherwise. That makes the picture even creepier, then, doesn't it? Depending on which context you use. It is symbolic of fertility, the mother's milk and life blood. Personally I go not find it either creepy. What type of symbolism are you looking for in a deck? or is the art more important? The decks that have been recommended to you thus far by everyone are of good symbolism ... if you are more interested in art decks please advise.

Geenius at Wrok	22 Jan 2002
Quote: Jewel (23 Jan, 2002 08:17): Quote: Geenius at Wrok (23 Jan, 2002 07:44): The Spiral is closer to the mark, but the Aeclectic images are very fuzzy—are the cards themselves that fuzzy, or is it just a low-res scan? check out www.wicce.com - also read the review. Thanks for the alternate link. Yes, the cards themselves are that fuzzy. :( Quote: Quote: Minchiate: Now you're talking! I like the style of this deck a lot. Unfortunately, it's got very nonstandard majors and pip minors. I might get it just for my own enjoyment, but not as my "default" deck. We're definitely getting warmer, though! You could always take out the zodiacal and elemental cards. The Minchiate by Williams has pips and scenes. Please read the review at www.wicce.com it is very very good. I could take out those cards, but it would disrupt the numbering. As the Wicce site says, it's not a "true" tarot deck. Quote: What type of symbolism are you looking for in a deck? or is the art more important? The decks that have been recommended to you thus far by everyone are of good symbolism ... if you are more interested in art decks please advise. They're both very important, but the art is make-or-break—if I don't love the art, I won't buy the deck. That's why I posted my initial list of decks whose styles appealed to me. I like the how the Mage or World Spirit or Saints deck look, for example, even though I don't necessarily want the altered suits or the Christian imagery. The symbolism is secondary to the art, but I'd prefer a deck with images that are either traditional or twists on the traditional. I like both the metaphorical function and the sense of familiarity. (From what I've seen, the TarotNova would be perfect if only it existed yet! But it doesn't.) If I couldn't have traditional or tradition-inspired images, I'd settle for other evocative images, but I really don't want to settle for pip cards, because I've already got that in the Ukiyoe deck. Basically, I guess, what I want is a very traditional deck—except for the art, which can be traditional or modern or anything in between, as long as it's top-notch.

Geenius at Wrok	22 Jan 2002
As if this weren't all confusing enough, I've just discovered that there's a TarotNova and a Tarot Nova. The first one is the one I really love, though the second is pretty cute.

faunabay	23 Jan 2002
I've got the Alchemical and really like it, but I've got to agree with you on the star card. It's kind of creepy to me also! I understand and see the reasoning behind the picture - it's still creeps me out though. :) But I like the rest of the deck so much I still use it. :P

Jewel	23 Jan 2002
Quote: [b] Geenius at Wrok (23 Jan, 2002 They're both very important, but the art is make-or-break—if I don't love the art, I won't buy the deck. That's why I posted my initial list of decks whose styles appealed to me. I like the how the Mage or World Spirit or Saints deck look, for example, even though I don't necessarily want the altered suits or the Christian imagery. The symbolism is secondary to the art, but I'd prefer a deck with images that are either traditional or twists on the traditional. I like both the metaphorical function and the sense of familiarity. (From what I've seen, the TarotNova would be perfect if only it existed yet! But it doesn't.) If I couldn't have traditional or tradition-inspired images, I'd settle for other evocative images, but I really don't want to settle for pip cards, because I've already got that in the Ukiyoe deck. Basically, I guess, what I want is a very traditional deck— except for the art, which can be traditional or modern or anything in between, as long as it's top-notch. GaW, the Winged Sprit Tarot has received good reviews (is that the one you meant by "World Spirit"?). Just because it has angels does not make it a Christian deck ... Another deck that came to mind that you might want to check out is the Medieval Scampini. The minors are called pips but there is quite a bit of imagery on them so in my opionion they are not really pips. Good luck in your search and let us know what deck you opted to purchase when you decide.

Kiama	23 Jan 2002
My advice to you, Geenius, is to simply BUY THEM ALL!!!!! :-D I was searching for the perfect deck for me ever since I was about 9, and spent the next 6 years looking. I found the Robin Wood, but also developed a taste for collecting decks I like or think I might like. I've bought nearly all the decks that I've wanted for a long time, and I have been surprised: Some aren't as nice as I thought, others are better. Go on... Make yourself poor... Buy them all! ;p Kiama

Geenius at Wrok	24 Jan 2002
Quote: Kiama (24 Jan, 2002 10:36): My advice to you, Geenius, is to simply BUY THEM ALL!!!!! I already do that with board games. Can't be doing it with tarot cards too! Jewel, I looked at the Medieval Scapini and Winged Spirit decks. I like the layout of the Scapini, but the art itself is too unrefined for my tastes. I do like the illustrations on the Winged Spirit, but they look odd to me with the flat backgrounds, and anyway I'm not into the whole angel thing either. Yesterday I discovered Alida and Trigono, which stock a lot of decks by Lo Scarabeo. Some very nice ones coming out of that company! I've kinda got my eye on the Castelli Tarot Art Nouveau. (I really like the U.S. Games Art Nouveau deck for the most part, but I don't know whether I can get over the Ken hair on the King of Staves. Ugh!)

Geenius at Wrok	25 Jan 2002
Quote: Diana (26 Jan, 2002 02:20): But seriously, you could perhaps find the perfect deck, and who knows, perhaps it's not been published yet. So in the meantime, and if you can't buy all the decks (board games do tend to get expensive and take up space - I'm just looking at the size of the Axis and Allies box on the bookshelf next to me), why don't you buy three of the best you've found? Honestly, because it's more important to me here and now to get the right working deck, when I finally get one, than to have a working deck at all. And my money is tight enough that I don't want to spend it on anything that I'm not going to be completely satisfied with. Quote: So, when are you going to take the leap? I was thinking of going to a local new-age bookstore tomorrow and seeing whether it had any opened decks I could look at firsthand. No guarantee that I'll buy anything, but I will keep you all posted, don't worry. :)

faunabay	25 Jan 2002
That's a great idea Geenius. Try to find a place where you can flip through the decks. No matter how perfect the cards look on the internet, I can't really tell how I"ll like them until I have them in my hands and can work with them a bit. Suggestion: I've gotten to the point when I'm where I can flip through them I do a small one card draw asking how we would work together. It has helped immensely to make my choices.

Geenius at Wrok	26 Jan 2002
Boy, you're not kidding, faunabay. Went to a store today that had a "sampler book"—couldn't handle the samples but could look at them up-close, and some of them certainly do look quite different in person than they do in the online scans. A few worse, a few better—the better ones mostly cases in which the typography works better when you're looking at the cards in isolation. So based on my little field trip, I narrowed my selection down to three: the Nigel Jackson, the Tarot of Secrets (Nizzoli) and the Universal New Waite (de Angelis). And the winner is . . . Vertigo! Would you believe that after all that Sturm und Drang, I actually found second-edition Vertigo decks on eBay for just 30 bucks? Who could say no to that? I snapped up one of those, and it should be on its way any day now. Oh, and about those other three: I think I'll probably get the Nigel Jackson too. So we'll call that one my "official" winner. :)

faunabay	26 Jan 2002
See now that's why it's hard to help someone else find "their" deck!!!! :) The Nigel Jackson is my favorite deck and I thought about suggesting it, but believed it to be too dated from what you said you wanted. :) Anyway, it really does make a difference to actually see them in person, doesn't it? And just so you know, I've got the Universal Tarot by De Angelis up for sale right now - cheap! hint hint hint LOL

Geenius at Wrok	27 Jan 2002
Quote: faunabay (27 Jan, 2002 12:37): See now that's why it's hard to help someone else find "their" deck!!!! :) The Nigel Jackson is my favorite deck and I thought about suggesting it, but believed it to be too dated from what you said you wanted. :) Really? Dated? I wish a few of the figures (in particular, the knights) were proportioned a little better, but that's my only criticism; "dated" is one that wouldn't ever have occurred to me. Am I maybe dating myself? :) (I did end up buying this deck too, BTW.)

faunabay	28 Jan 2002
I'm so glad you got the Nigel Jackson! I love mine and it works so well for me too. I'm also with you though - the only slight criticism I have is the body proportions, but all the positives far outweigh that little snag. Have fun with your new deck!

Kyrielle	19 Jun 2002
The Chinese Tarot I have (by Jui Guoliang) has swords, cups, staves, and disks as the suits. The art is beautiful and very Chinese. Most (but not all) of the majors have traditional Rider-Waite titles, although this is no R-W clone as far as the symbolism goes. It's based on Chinese mythology. Lovely, detailed, and sometimes humorous art (love the 7 of Cups!). It's well worth considering if you're still interested in a Chinese deck. --Kyrielle

mondk	19 Jun 2002
Ever tried the Witches' Tarot (Ellen Cannon Reed)? It is definitely NOT pastel or cutesy or dated...at least, in my opinion. Another deck I don't have but have heard good things about is the Vampiric deck. Blessings, Michelle

Violet Gargoyle	19 Jun 2002
Heya Geenius, I have started to become a fan of Robert Place, and I have both the Tarot of the Saints and the Alchemical Tarot. The alchemical tarot is prefered more by myself, Star not withstanding, but I rarely pull the Star in any of my readings so maybe I just haven't been bothered by it as much as I thought I was going to be when I first saw it. One thing about the Tarot of the Saints is that some of the cards are renamed, mainly the Pope and Papess. If you don't mind that and things like "St. Catherine and the Wheel" you might really like the deck. Along the same lines is the Tarot of the Tsar coming out soon (on my wishlist) that is supposed to focus on the Russian side of the same theme. I also have the Vertigo deck, its in a lot of the same format as the Rock and Roll Tarot. If you like collage work, you might like that. I have it more for decorative purpose because I have collected a lot of those comics. Also have the World spirit, I like it but I have not become attached to it yet. I think I am more attracted to the richness of the colors more than what I get from them, but its my opinion. I like the chinese tarot, a bit more masculine while still being beautiful, another good decorative deck. I have said it before that it has one of the most haggard looking fools, give you an idea about how the chinese culture views my totem card. Where can one find a stick figure tarot, I thought it was OOP? If you find one of these, I'd like to have a copy in my hot little hands myself.

napaea	19 Jun 2002
I love that after all that banter you had Tarot of Secrets at least in your top 3! I was scrambling to find my information on this deck, as I don't yet have it but absolutely fell in love with it. I, too, have been looking for the perfect deck, and this one seemed close to the Rider-Waite artistically but with much more sass. I do recommend going to the New Age bookstores to check out what they have. Many stores have display copies to pilfer through. You can always milk the system and order a deck through Barnes & Noble, and return it if you hate it, but you didn't hear that from me! Anyway, glad you got what you wanted! Maybe you'd be willing to try out your new deck on some of us (me!) in the reading exchange? ;-) napaea

Geenius at Wrok	20 Jun 2002
Hardly new anymore—I've had it for, what, three or four months? :) I don't do the Reading Exchange because of my personal belief (call it a superstition if you like) that magic and technology are incompatible, so any reading I were to do for someone I'd had contact with only through the Internet would be garbage.

Zhritza	23 Jun 2002
I have the Tarot of Secrets, and based on your criteria I do recommend it, with the caveat that it has a fair amount of seemingly pointless nudity in it (only of women - gee, there's a surprise ;) ). I'm glad you got the Vertigo! You'll have to tell us what you think. Also I really think you should get the Alchemical eventually. At first glance the Star does look like she's squirting milk and blood, but if you read the book that's with it, you find that this is really a representation of gender balance; evidently, in alchemy, red symbolizes the masculine and white the feminine. And this is really the only even remotely tricky image in the deck. It's proportional, classy, and vivid. My only complaint is that everyone in it is white, but that's nothing new...

The Help me pick a deck thread was originally posted on 21 Jan 2002 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.