Rider-Waite vs. Thoth

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 19 Mar 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Temperance413	19 Mar 2002
Okay, I know you all have probably done this already, but humor me I'm new and would really like your advice. Which deck would you prefer to use if there were only these two to choose from, and why? What makes each one special, or too bizarre to use. Would really like your input from a traditional point of view! :) Thank you! Temperance413

Kaz	19 Mar 2002
i would definately go for the Thoth deck, as it's beautiful in art for starters. And it has other things in it as well, i don't really know if Waite has them, suppose not, qabalah, astrology etc... It's a magnetic deck, either you love it, or you just don't. Kaz

Lion-O	19 Mar 2002
I would definatly go for the Rider Waite deck, it simply appeals much more to me. The Thoth deck is too much 'off' for me to easily read it. But do note that this is a very personal thing.

Emily	19 Mar 2002
I use the Rider Waite but later on I want to get a Thoth deck, maybe not to use but because the art work intrigues me but I don't think the Thoth is one for a newbie (like me) lol :)

kayne	20 Mar 2002
I much prefer the art of Thoth but I think I would be able to use the RW more easerly... I don't actually own RW, however I have studied it in many books on tarot. I'm not really comfortable with my Thoth deck yet... I need to study it much more I think... I do love those illustrations though...

Kiama	20 Mar 2002
I would have to go for RW. I love the Thoth's artwork, but don't agree with some of Crowley's interpretation of the cards, let alone his view of their origin... *Kiama scowls* And I know the RW very well, so I would feel better reading from that one. Kiama

Jewel	20 Mar 2002
I have primarily worked with RW clones, but I must say now that I have increased my knowledge of Tarot I feel myself drawn not only to the Thoth, but Thoth based decks (something I did not think would happen). Both decks have much to contribute and believe it has been very helpful for me to learn about both. The combination of knowledge is very enriching. Both include the esoteric elements that drew me to Tarot and both have been major contributions. Knowing what I know now, I think I would have to say the Thoth deck.

Tarot Hermit	20 Mar 2002
I would opt for the Thoth deck. I have used it every since it was published for the general public in '68' or '69'. To me it is such a dynamic, alive deck, full of symbolism and *mystery*. Although the Rider-Waite evolved from the same or similiar origins it just seems to be much clearer in the Thoth. Even the way the symbols are arranged in the minor arcana has specific meaning and there is such a wealth of information in the astrological attributions. Tarot Hermit

Liliana	20 Mar 2002
Id go for Rider Waite (actually Universal Waite or Golden Rider), because Im a Christian andits a Christian deck, and I really dislike Crowley, he just others me hehe, also because I dont like pip cards and the thoth uses pips, tho detailed ones

Thirteen	20 Mar 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Temperance413 Which deck would you prefer to use if there were only these two to choose from, and why? Damn tough question. I honestly believe that beginners do better by way of RW (Crowley is a very "deep end" deck) and, personally, I like the art in that deck better. Crowley is too busy for me. On the other hand, if you want to get deeper into tarot, you really need Crowley. While Kiama might disagree, his interpetations are far deeper, more complex and more complete than RW. What makes Crowley bad for beginners is what makes him excellent for journeymen. Just to take one example: RW defines almost all the swords as signalling terrible problems, troubles and difficulties. The six of swords is basically defined as meaning: moving out of rough waters into smooth, one of the nicest swords you can find in that deck. RW, let's face it, can sometimes be secretive, gloomy and frustrating (the meaning of the Lovers for example--I really do hate that Garden of Eden! It's never sat well with me). But Crowley defines the 6 of swords as "rational thinking"--the "crossing the river" in RW coming to mean that one's mind can reach the other shore, find answers as well a relief--conclusions, ephiphanies. What Crowley does is bring in the intellectual and verbal aspect of the swords. So Swords are not just nasty, scary predictors of trouble and woe. So I guess, if I had to pick one, it would have to be Crowley. I may not like the over all art as well--though it is wonderful in its own way--but the meanings have more facets, and are strong and insightful.

Pedeka	20 Mar 2002
I would use a Waite deck any day of the week. I find that the Waite style of symbolism gives my mind the maximum ammount of "jumping off" points. When I started "collecting" decks I thought that I really wanted a Thoth deck and a friend gave me one. Its purely a personal thing, but I did not get along with that deck at all. It gave me the screaming willys to try and use it. I passed it along to one of my brothers friends. I really hadnt done any reading about things relating to tarot at that point in my life. When I started reading about Crowley, it kinda made sense to me why I just didnt want anything to do with his deck. But thats just me, I have found that many people just love this deck. It seems that there arent many people with neutral feelings about the Thoth deck though. Love it or hate it.

jmd	21 Mar 2002
If the only two decks available were the Waite and the Thoth, I would be quite sad! I personally would have to choose the Waite, even though I consider the pips 'cleaner' when only depicting the number of items, rather than scenic. I would also have to re-'correct' his numbering of the Major Arcana and write VIII at Justice and XI at Strength, and delete the zero on the Fool. I personally do not agree with Thirteen that 'if you want to get deeper into tarot, you really need Crowley'. Crowley may provide certain complexities and elucidations for the 'journeyman', but so does the Waite... and most other decks. From a 'traditional' perspective, neither really hit the mark, but it would be easier to get back to the essential from the Waite, hence my choice of this horrible conundrum!

VGimlet	21 Mar 2002
I have both decks, but I would have to choose the Smith - Waite right now. Not only because I am right in the middle of an in-depth study of all the cards, but the symbolism in that deck works better for me, it's more clear, and even though some of the symbols in it irritate me, at least I understand them. At the moment, the Thoth says nothing much to me, and the imagery seems too dark, although in some ways I find it a more interesting deck.

Geenius at Wrok	21 Mar 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Pedeka It seems that there arent many people with neutral feelings about the Thoth deck though. Love it or hate it. You can certainly put me in the "strong dislike" camp. Weird cubist art aside, the fact that a grown man picked up a deck of tarot cards and said, "You know, this isn't bad, but you know what would make it even better? A 'Lust' card! Yes, there must be Lust! This is so important to me, I will remove one of these other perfectly good major arcana to make room for it"—and voilà, we've just created the official occult device of the Playboy Mansion. Totally adolescent. Whatever else you might say about the Rider-Waite, at least it's a mature, well-thought-out piece of work.

Greenman	21 Mar 2002
it's apparent that you've never taken the time to study this deck then, or you'd realize why Crowley changed that (and other) card, and it has NOTHING to do with any adolescent Playboy fantasies. anyway, for me the choice is easy. Thoth. period. while RW may be better for the beginner, if you intend to get deeper into the tarot system, then you must advance beyond this deck eventually, and that road will lead to the Thoth deck. it's like Dr. Suess vs. Plato. a third grader would have no way to comprehend 'The Republic', and a scholar would absolutely want more than 'Let's Hop On Pop'. so i have to agree with Thirteen here. magick and deeper, esoteric knowledge are NOT easy things to know. if they were then they wouldn't be as treasured. Crowley's deck requires work, but the rewards are amazing! PS- Rider Waite a Christian deck?

Liliana	21 Mar 2002
RW is full of Christian symbols, Ive seen a number of Pagans complain about it. Aceof Cups shows the Holy Spirit descending on communion, the Lovers are Adam and Eve in the garden, pillars of the High Priestess are from the temple of Solomon, The Devil is a Christian creation (as Pagans point out), there's way more. There is a lot of symbolism in the Waite deck, I dont think it necessarily ever needs to be out grown as some people suggest, you just have to figure out what to study.

rubikon	21 Mar 2002
I prefer the Rider Waite over the Thoth on the basis of artwork. The Rider Waite art is more interesting with figures being depicted in the Minor Arcana. Tarot would be less without cards such as the Seven of Cups to ponder. The Major Arcana symbolism is more basic and closer to the Marseille. While the Thoth is full of symbolism, it doesn't appeal to me on an art basis. I like a few of the Majors (the Lovers is okay). The Minors are basically pip cards. While I haven't read the Book of Thoth, I would guess that it would help to understand the tarot. So between the two, I'd use the RiderWaite deck and the Book of Thoth as well as Waite's book.

Kiama	22 Mar 2002
He he... Just realised how much Good Ole Beastie Boy would be turning in his grave if her realised what we were discussing, given his avid hate of the RW deck! Geenius: I liked your mini Thoth-bash, it made me giggle. Even though I quite like the deck! Greenman: I wouldn't go so far as to say that RW is Dr Suess compared to Thoth's Platonic quality. The RW deck is quite obviously different, but then again, that's cuz it comes from a different viewpoint and way of living. Don't remember Mr AE Waite doing what Crowley did, or being an Egypt fanatic, or experiencing what Crowley did, so its understandable that his deck is different. In this case, I think we have Plato, and... Neitzsche! Or, Plato and Kierkegaarde. But RW is still choc-full of deepness and symbolism, so doesn't deserve the Dr Suess comaprison. And anyway, what use is a deck if only a few people out of 100 can use it and understand it?! Crowley's form of Tarot is often very occult and Golden Dawn, which some people wouldn't understand. There are so many Tarot students and readres out there who aren't occult scientists, Pagan, whatever. Whilst the RW deck still adheres to the Golden Dawn trad slightly, it certainly doesn't flaunt it as much as Crowley did. Kiama *Imagining what a mixture of Plato and Dr Seuss would be like...*

Geenius at Wrok	22 Mar 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Greenman while RW may be better for the beginner, if you intend to get deeper into the tarot system, then you must advance beyond this deck eventually . . . Why? Quote: . . . and that road will lead to the Thoth deck. Why? That first "why" is an inquisitive "why"; the second is an extremely skeptical "why."

Jewel	22 Mar 2002
This has really been an interesting thread to read. Although my vote lies with the Thoth deck, I am fascinated by everyones opinions. If found Thirteen and Greenman's commentary very fitting for me. In my learning curve I feel as though I have "evolved" into being trully interested in and fascinated by the Thoth deck. It want more knowledge, more information on the occult, more symbolism ... and voila there is the Thoth deck smiling at me. I do not dislike the RW deck (the Universal Waite that is), but something tells me that once I get into the Thoth deck I will not be turning back ... just a hunch.

Liliana	22 Mar 2002
Well I think with the Rider to truly get all the symbolism you haveto go beyond basic tarot books. Golden Dawn books, symbolism books or various cultures (egyptian symbolism was mentioned onthe thread about the snail elsewhere), qabala books, christian mysticism books, astrology books, and im sure countless other types of books can all be studied to get more from the Rider deck, whereas you have to read Crowleys work to get his deck, and not liking Crowley much Id prefer not.

Thirteen	23 Mar 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Geenius at Wrok Why? Why? That first "why" is an inquisitive "why"; the second is an extremely skeptical "why." No need to be skeptical--though I understand perfectly. I was a skeptic myself the first time someone told me that Crowley's deck and interpetations could completely change the way I read tarot. Actually, the answer is fairly simple. Waite was part of the Golden Dawn, a magical order, like Crowley. But he was an older, respected member and took his secrecy vows seriously. Robert Wang points out that Waite was cautious about putting some esoteric knowledge into print, or, for that matter, on the cards. He knew the cards would be public. And his thought, as I understand it, was that those who did not know certain Golden Dawn secrets should not know them, and those who did would undertand the deeper symbolism on the cards and so not need them spelled out. So Waite's cards, though not simplistic by any means, are still "beginner" cards. They deliberately leave things out, obscure meanings, etc. And his explainations of the cards are often truncated, incomplete or even misleading--or so I've been told. Wang's book, Qabalistic Tarot, often points this out as it compares and contrasts four different decks and interpetations, Waites and Crowley's among them. Crowley, on the other hand, was not only a Golden Dawn member but a Rosicrucian, member of a coven, student of Enochian magic, writer, drug addict and blabber-mouth. He kept nothing a secret. And this is why he's good for Tarot readers who want to go for their graduate degree. Crowley was an insatiable devourer of esoteric knowledge. He researched everything in every direction, absorbed it and went looking for more. And tried to put it all on those cards. Reading what Crowley has to say about the cards is an education in all those things Liliana mentions--only Crowley's done all the research for you. He was a competitive magician who traveled widely studying Eastern mysticism, buddhism, Tantric Yoga, the i-ching, the Qabala, paganism. He lived in Scotland, the U.S., Sicily, France, Tunisia, Germany and, in his youth, climbed the highest peaks of the Himalayas. He studied the history and mythology of Sumerian, Egypt, Greece, Britian, Rome and Germany among others. Crowley, in short, has done research into things most of us wouldn't even think of doing and put it all in one place. I'll show you what I mean. Here's what Waite has to say about The Empress (quoted from _Dictionary of the Tarot_ by Bill Butler): "The fruitful mother of thousands. Fruitfulness, action, initiative, length of days, the unknown, clandestine, difficulty, doubt, ignorance, light, turth, the unravellling of involved matters, public rejoicings, vacillation." Pretty complete, yes? Here's Crowley: "Illuminating intelligence. Emerald Green. Hathor. Freya and Aphrodite. Venus. The sparrow, the dove, the swan. Myrtle, rose and clover. Emerald or turquise. Her weapon is the girdle. her perfumes are sandlewood, myrtel, all soft voluptuous odours. her drugs are all aphodisiacs. her magical powers are those governing love philtres. Her name is The Daughter of the Mighty Ones. Implies that fundamental law of the univers is love. In alchemical terms she is salt, the inactive principle of nature which must be energized by sulphur to maintain the whirling equilibrium of the universe. Lineal figure, the heptagram. Lover, beauty, happiness, pleasure, success, completion, good fortune, graciousness, elegance, luxury, idleness, dissipation, debauchery, friendship, gentleness, delight." This is what Greenman and I are talking about. Waite is Newtonian physics. He's complex and covers just about everything you'll need. Crowley is Einstein, he's very complex, overly so some might rightly argue, but he can take you all the places Newtonian physics don't go--if those are the places you want physics to take you.

jmd	23 Mar 2002
That Waite's explanations leaves many things out does not mean that he instructed Colman-Smith to leave depictions out of the cards. He would only have been too familiar with Christ's statements about those who have eyes to see... no need to hide things! Waite's cards are thus definitely not just 'beginner' cards. Perhaps it should also be remembered that when Harris painted the Thoth cards in the 1930s, there was already a substantial amount of development that had gone on in the esoteric Tarot world. Also, Waite was more likely to 'sit within' and draw out a tradition (hence their similarity to decks from Wirth, Marseilles, Flemish, and indications by E. Levi), whereas Crowley undoubtedly felt such traditions somewhat constraining. So what were some of the other differences between these two men? certainly they were both writers, and were both translators (they even each translated a book from E. Levi, without the need for one of them to assume he was his re-incarnation). They were also both GD initiates, and hence (?) both at least claimed to also be Rosicrucians (some would of course claim that neither, or only one or the other, were such). As GD members, they also both studied Enochian Magic... but there is no doubt that Waite was not a drug user, nor a member of what may be claimed to be a coven... of any shade or colour. Certainly, the deck or decks chosen can and do change not only how and what one reads, but possibly also our own relationship to the spiritual world. A question which each user possibly needs to attempt to answer is 'What was working through the creators of this deck?' (any deck, whether it be, for example, the Visconti-Sforza, Marseilles, Wirth, Waite, Thoth, or Motherpeace). The answer to that question, no matter whether it can be fully articulated, or only an impression is received, can certainly tell us quite a bit about the deck and who the beings behind it are. I certainly view neither Waite nor Crowley as either a Newton nor an Einstein (though the former certainly had far more interests with areas esoteric). To claim that the Waite somehow falls short of the Crowley deck on matters esoteric cannot, in my view, hold ground intrinsically. Nonetheless, I do agree that each can lead a person towards a transformed sense of understanding and towards the spiritual. For some, the intricacies of the Thoth will make it seem more profound, for others, the apparent simplicity of the Waite will do likewise... For myself, the Marseilles maintains the spiritual depth and elevation I strive to work towards.

Thirteen	23 Mar 2002
You make a good argument, JMD--and I'm not trying to undermine anyone here about their choices or reasons for that choice, but spirituality is personal, so I wouldn't venture to discuss Waite/Crowley on that level (if I did, then, like you, neither would serve). I answered the question as asked--that's the original and the one asked by Geenius. Both asked for reasons for my feelings and beliefs, not just personal preference based on spiritual connections. And I still hold to my position in as objective a way as one can on a subject that's rather akin to asking preference in movie directors or favorite novelist. My point is that Crowley explored various kinds of mysticism that Waite did not (Eastern, far Eastern, Pagan). What this means is that his cards have a consilience of information that's wider than Waite carrying it beyond, as YOU, yourself, point out, the solid traditions it's based on. In that, the Newtonian vs Einsteinian comparison, I think, holds up just fine. Crowley tried to go beyond those traditions. As I said, I don't think Waite is a simplistic deck, only that it's much better for beginners. And I mean that in its art as well as in Waite's clarity of interpetation. I also think readers can do with just Waite, and perhaps that undermines any previous argument I had on this subject. But I still hold that Crowley can take readers to another level that Waite cannot. If you don't believe that's true, fine. But I certainly would never argue that this other level has anything to do with spirituality. Only knowledge.

Greenman	24 Mar 2002
thank you Thirteen. i have had difficulty logging in the last few days, but i could never had worded it as succinctly as you have. i never meant to suggest that Waite's interpretation was invalid, only not as in depth. it seems to me that Waite reiterated the same line that had been espoused on the tarot ever since Court de Gebelin (a hit or miss proposition at best), whereas Crowley took the approach of rechanneling the esoteric knowledge of the ancients. the result of this was that he came up with some interpretations that may have been missed by the traditionalists. perhaps you have heard the story of S.L MacGregor-Mathers going into a back room and coming out two hours later with the ENTIRE GD tarot? this then became the GD standard, and Waite merely expanded on this. this by no means belittles Pamela Coleman-Smith's achievement. but Crowley started with a deeper, more cerebral approach. and it shows (imo). as far as the art goes, that is only a matter of opinion. i happen to prefer Lady Harris' take. and i think that the minors a very expressive. oh well.

Kiama	24 Mar 2002
After reading Crowley's interpretation of the cards, I found that I already knew most of it. I don't think Crowley's apparent blabber-mouthing the Golden Dawn secrets is at all necessary to read the cards in a more esotric or whatever way, cuz lots of it people will already know, if they've spent enought time with the cards. All you need is to use those wonderful (Ugh) spider-diagrams, and just free-assocaite the words that come to you about each card. Eventually, you'll get to what Crowley did through years of Occult research... And thus, Thoth deck remains seldom used in the bottom of my Tarot deck drawer, feeling dejected, whilst a spider-gram reigns supreme... *Giggle* Kiama

Zhritza	02 Apr 2002
I vote for the Thoth, and it's worth pointing out that I dislike Crowley too. I know very little about him. But I once read his own descriptions of the major arcana, and he stated in no uncertain terms that the Moon was the most negative and sinister card in the entire deck. To me this is just infantile. First, it implies a problem with femaleness - but even if that wasn't the case with him (was it? I don't know), I feel that the Moon is about scary but very necessary aspects of life: navigating murky waters, discerning truth from falseness in the people around you... some of the core issues we all must wrangle with. So in that moment I decided he was kind of an idiot. But, he didn't do the artwork; a very talented artist did (I forget her name, I'm embarrassed to say), and the artwork, while very busy, has a lot of merit. The Rider-Waite is like reading a pack of playing cards, which of course can be done, but why would you want to?

Aerin	02 Apr 2002
At the moment, the Rider Waite. I have both decks, and for some reason the Thoth one leaves me cold. Or more than that, it gives me the shivers and I can't quite put my finger on why that should be. I didn't know anything about Crowley when I first had it, so had no preconceptions of the deck. I cannot bring myself to read with it, and given that I trust my intuition I feel that the deck is just not for me at the moment. This may of course change in the future: my deck isn't going anywhere. The RW deck is the one I started learning on. It isn't my favourite deck, I do find it relatively easy to work out what is going on with each card though and it does feel like a friend. Aerin

Sorceress_Jade	18 Apr 2002
I had my Rider-Waite deck for a long time, promising myself that I would learn to use them. Never did, never got close to my deck. My best friend came to visit and told me to read for her with her cards. Told her I couldn't, but she made me anyway. She had a Thoth deck. I did it, just off of the images, and realized I'd been going about the whole thing wrong from the beginning. I tried to use my Rider deck in the same fashion I'd used her Thoth, but it felt like the people were getting in my way. So I went and bout my own Thoth deck. I used that deck, sucessfully for a while, and but came across some places where I couldn't get a clear answere. So, on a whim, I pulled out my Rider. Finally, I was able to use that deck, the Rider deck, the one that's supposed to be for newbies, the way it was supposed to be used. I love my decks equally, and they are equally as powerful, but in different ways. I often hear that Thoth is not a good newbie deck, but it worked very well for me. The imagery is incredibly powerful, and that's the key. Finding imagery that you can deal with, I suggest looking at the sample cards and seeing which you feel is most meaningful to you

owen glendower	18 Apr 2002
RW vs Thoth sort of apples and oranges, don`t you think? I now use the Thoth almost exclusively, but the RW is thefirst deck I used and I find it invaluable for the first time user. In short, the Thoth is far too esoteric for the novice while the RW is essential for the beginner. The RW is the winner.

MystiqueMoonlight	18 Apr 2002
OUCH!! This has always and will always be a sensitive topic to discuss. I have the Thoth Deck and have never used the RW. My sister was always a RW fan. However I would like to perhaps clear up 2 viewpoints. Thirteen, you "quoted" the interpretations of the Empress from RW and Thoth. I can't speak for the RW definition, but certainly the quotation you used for Crowley was not quite accurate. In fact you just used the correspondences relating to that card and those come from a book written by Akron.Hajo Banzhof NOT Crowley. In fact the author of this book actually has 2 and a half pages of definition for the Empress. Firstly describing the esoteric meanings of each symbol in the card and then providing the interpretation. Crowley actually defines it as:- " ... This card is, on the face of it, the complement of the Emperor, but her attributions are much more universal.....she combines the highest spiritual with the lowest material qualtities..." He then goes on to describe the card and the meanings of the symbols on it and their realationship to the meaning of the Empress. I am sure that the RW Empress would basically mean the same thing? Qolus, I don't believe that you really caught the essence of Crowley's interpretation of the Moon at the time of reading it, but you certainly hit the nail on the head when you provided your own interpretation of it and that is exactly the point Crowley makes in his description. Having said that though your implication of him is that his viewpoint is sexist, perhaps your consequent response to him is just a sexist as well? There really is no arena for that in the Tarot whichever system is used be it RW, Thoth or whatever. For me I prefer the Thoth and the Thoth clones (eg: Haindl, Rohrig). I have used some of the RW clones and they are "nice". They never really lead me into anything else though, but reading the cards and giving answers to questions. The Thoth deck provides me with a real in depth meaning of a reading and has urged me to go forward in my spiritual studies. I love the Thoth deck and I respect the readers of the RW deck for their decision as well. Blessed be...

Zhritza	18 Apr 2002
...Yes, I read that a long time ago and I probably misinterpreted it and/or jumped to conclusions without really letting it sink in. No, I don't think I am being sexist; do you mean sexist as in expecting him to be anti-female because he's male? That doesn't describe me at all. However, I did used to be a lot more like that in certain ways, so... Suffice it to say, in the future, I don't think I'll give my versions of tarot-related things here as I remember them from years ago. That "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" thing, though... I've been on this forum for two weeks and my posts from that long ago seem ancient. How could I possibly not have remembered Lady Frieda Harris' name instantly, as I do now? :| I work in a bookstore, for cripes' sake. I should probably just take a look at Crowley's books -- what an idea! I think I'm avoiding it because he seems like he was so focused on being a personality, and that rubs me the wrong way.

MystiqueMoonlight	18 Apr 2002
Hi Qolus, I didn't mean to offend and I certainly hope I didn't. What I mean is that in defense of your assumption that Crowley's interpretation of the Moon was sexist your view point came across as sexist in the reverse. Please don't stop adding your view point to any of these forums. It is the opinions of the many that makes the world a place to live rather than the opinions of the few which makes it a place to survive. Blessed be.....

Greenman	19 Apr 2002
MystiqueMoonlight, speaking of 'Thoth clones', do you know the "Magickal Tarot" with the Tony Willis book?

MystiqueMoonlight	19 Apr 2002
Hi Greenman, I took a look at this deck on another site. Very interesting! Apparently it is out of print... you wouldn't happen to know where I could get my hands on this deck and book set per chance?

Greenman	19 Apr 2002
it might still be available in the UK. and i've seen it a couple of times at Amazon.com

purplelady	19 Apr 2002
I Learned on Both . So it would be a really hard decision if I had to chose between the decks. I think it would also depend on what mood I was in. If I wanted "comfort" or maybe a more straightfoward simple answer , I might chose rider-waite (not that I find this deck particularly comforting , but maybe a tad bit more than Thoth!) . But I think if really pressed to chose , I would have to chose Thoth. Maybe because I'm not really that interested in the rider-waite at the time. And I'm becoming interested in the Thoth again. Plus, I kind-of like the key words that Crowley chose.

Zhritza	19 Apr 2002
MystiqueM, I'm not offended. I'm sort of surprised at myself in hindsight, that's all; I really don't know jack squat about Crowley on the whole and I shouldn't have relied on one old memory I had to judge him by. Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight What I mean is that in defense of your assumption that Crowley's interpretation of the Moon was sexist your view point came across as sexist in the reverse. I still don't know what you mean by this... I don't want to get off subject, but could you clarify? Thanks :)

MystiqueMoonlight	20 Apr 2002
Gee Qolus I hope next time I'm in the States you're inviting me over for dinner.... It doesn't really matter what we were talking about at this stage *smile*...I think we both have learnt something here. Blessed be...

Zhritza	21 Apr 2002
Dinner, eh? I suppose you'll be wanting redneck food :D So, uh, back on track... How does everyone feel about the keywords on the minors in the Thoth? Would those of you who like the Thoth still like reading it without them, do you think? I am reading Rachel Pollack's "Illustrated Guide to the Tarot" (which may have been a mistake because it's introduced me to MORE decks that I want :rolleyes: ) and she claims many people cut the keywords off. Has anyone done that?

Tarot Hermit	21 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Qolus How does everyone feel about the keywords on the minors in the Thoth? Would those of you who like the Thoth still like reading it without them, do you think? I am reading Rachel Pollack's "Illustrated Guide to the Tarot" (which may have been a mistake because it's introduced me to MORE decks that I want :rolleyes: ) and she claims many people cut the keywords off. Has anyone done that? I have used the Thoth deck for over thirty years and most of the time don't even pay attention to the key words. Only if during a professional consultation should the client ask about it do I talk about the key word. Which I feel is good for me as it keeps me on my toes and constantly learning. It is amazing how new realizations can become clear at moment like that. So I have no real attachment to the words being printed on the cards. Of course if they were removed I might feel differently. An interesting thing does occur with me quite often. As I look at the Thoth cards I will also see the same card as portrayed in the Waite deck and several others that I have studied. So I guess the effect of this would be as if I were reading with several decks at one time. Tarot Hermit

wolfen045	17 Mar 2003
I use both decks depending on my mood or who I am doing a reading for. I have read the Wang book mentioned in a previous Post (s0rry, I don"t remeber who brought It up) as well as Crowley's book of Thoth and Waite's Pictorial key to the Tarot. Having said all that I don't fimd one decks Interpretation deeper /better than the others. Instead I find that each deck is better in some areas and weaker in others. As for the artwork on the cards< I personally respond more to Lady Harris's style than Miss Coleman-Smith's. As for the keywords on the Thoth deck, I generally don't even see them when i am using them for a reading. I f I use them for meditation, I find that the key word can start a chain of association that can help me find greater depths of meaning in the cards. I own the Giant version of Waite which is also very good for both study and meditation . I really would have a hard time picking just one of these decks, but based on my response to the art work I would have to choose Crowley.

Aerin	18 Mar 2003
I've just re-read this thread, since it has floated up to the top again. The only thing that has changed for me is that I am now confident enough to say 'I'll use the RW since it gives me what I need' and not feel guilty that I'm not 'brave' or 'deep' enough or whatever to get into it or like it. Each to their own. I have now traded away both my Thoths. I do however still have my Vision Quest which is allegedly a Thoth related deck (I haven't spent much time with it, but that's just time constraints and not the deck.) Aerin ps the keywords were the least of my issues with the deck. We just respect, and cordially ignore each other.

Sulis	18 Mar 2003
I`ve only been studying Thoth for a few weeks, no book, I`m trying to get a feel for the cards 1st. For a while now I`ve been drawn to Thoth style decks so thought I`d better learn the real thing. Wow, am I glad that I got these cards. The minors are so wonderful, they`ve made me see why I`ve been so drawn to other decks without fully illustrated minors. I think I can even see now why Diana, JMD and all of the other Marseilles fans like pips: You see what you want to see, what you need to see, instead of some other artists interpretation of what they see. IMO these minors seem to lend themselves to so many more meanings than is first obvious, I can see now why some say that there is more depth in moody or non-illustrated minors - Hope that`s made sense, I sometimes have a bit of a blockage between my brain and my typing fingers *lol*. Back to my studies. Love and light Crystamynx

Richard	19 Mar 2003
Personally, I use both, and I find that I end up using them almost simultaneously, especially with the minors...when I use the Thoth (which is my primary deck), I usually end up envisioning the Waite-Smith pictures in my head, and vice-versa. It makes me worry a bit that so many people have adverse reactions to Thoth...I'd been using the Vertigo deck, and I wanted something a little more traditional. The Waite-Smith took quite a while to grow on me, but Thoth was immediately attractive. Does that mean there's something wrong with me? And personally, I think the Waite-Smith made a lot more sense (and I appreciated it much more) once I started seeing all the Kabbalistic and astrological "clues" in the deck. I don't think of it as a beginner's deck (and I think Waite is probably doing cartwheels in his grave over THAT one), but a deeply esoteric deck; it's just that the symbols are not obvious, and people can use the deck their whole lives without seeing that, for example, the dog on the Fool card looks like an aleph. Just on an artistic level, I like the Thoth MUCH better...no slag on Pixie, but I think Lady Harris was a much more interesting artist (I wish they had put the Harpo marx Fool into the deck, though; that might help some people who are scared off by the cards). I don't think the Thoth is sexist, but I do think it's a very masculine deck (especially the Devil...hee hee). That said, having Princesses instead of Pages evens out the court cards at least. But overall, yeah, I agree with the previous post that it's apples and oranges...now Waite-Smith vs. B.O.T.A. would be interesting...

Rusty Neon	19 Mar 2003
I use the Thoth deck as a study deck, especially as a way of gaining more insight into, and different viewpoints on, the GD's tarot and the RWS deck. From this perspective, I find Crowley's added symbolism (i.e., his personal philosophy -- The Beast, The Scarlet Woman --, the Egyptian symbolism, and the Thelemic aspects) a distraction that I try to filter out.

spunch	23 Mar 2003
Well, the first deck I have ever bought (and so far, this has been my only one, as well) was the Thoth tarot. I was drawn by it; just coulnd't help it. But then came the dissapointment. I've always thought I should read books on the subject, prior to actually doing some readings. All the books I found on Thoth tarot were too 'mystical' for me. A lot of Caballah involved, some daunting interpretations, a lot of symbols I got lost in... On the other hand, RW gave me some clearer pictures on interpreting the minor arcana, although I don't like the images very much (these are, in contrast with Thoth too simple), but this deck helps me learn the basics. The other two decks that I liked very much are newly-found Cosmic tribe (being involved with computer graphic I can really appreciate the effort Steeve Postman put in creating the images) and the other is Cashmir (Kashmir?) tarot - I like the colours and the simplicity, although there's no minor arcana.

Amythist	24 Mar 2003
I have never seen the Thoth Tarot but i must say i can not stand the ryder waite as i have got it. So i must go for the Thoth

rota	24 Mar 2003
Put me down as in favor of RWS. +++++++ (Is anyone keeping track here? I'm guessing there must be an ongoing poll somewhere on Aeclectic that I just haven't found yet. It would be interesting to know what the proportion of RWS-ies to Thoth-ites, not to mention Marseilles-ists, is among this group. Surely the reason there are different decks is because different people need them. Same as with world religions: the same truths presented different ways for different mindsets.) .

Khatruman	24 Mar 2003
I get a difference in aura between the two decks. To me, the Rider Waite is more formal and detatched. I feel it working more on my left brain, esoteric and studied, full of symbology that must be looked up an puzzled out. The Thoth deck, on the other hand, is more mystic and sensual. I find it to work on my right brain: I feel impressions about the pictures, atmospheres in the colors and shapes, swirls, darkness or lightness. I like having the two so that I can choose a deck based on my goals for the particular reading. Also, when I showed these two decks to my adult high school students, I had more acceptance of the RWS deck than the Thoth. These were students who had a conception of the tarot that those who know only what they hear in society in general have: un-Christian and possibly devil worship. My students took one glance at the Thoth cards and didn't want to touch them. They felt and evil force. The RWS though, they were turned off by because they didn't understand it. I think they sensed the esoterica and were puzzled by the pictures. So I guess my answer is not to choose, but to understand an essential feel of the decks and use them accordingly. Peace

wolfen045	24 Mar 2003
Khatruman, I use both decks and I do a lot of selecting between them based upon my mood. Also I often do readings for people who do not really know anything about tarot, and I give them a choice between a few decks. If I just have the RW and Thoth decks with me most people chose the RW. I think they feel instinctivly safer/ more comfortable with the RW.Blessings and Joy to all, Wolfen

Aerin	24 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Khatruman I get a difference in aura between the two decks. To me, the Rider Waite is more formal and detatched. I feel it working more on my left brain, esoteric and studied, full of symbology that must be looked up an puzzled out. The Thoth deck, on the other hand, is more mystic and sensual. I find it to work on my right brain: I feel impressions about the pictures, atmospheres in the colors and shapes, swirls, darkness or lightness. I get the exact opposite effect! :D The Thoth, for me, is reminiscent of my maths and physics training, for whatever reason. It trips my left brain responses. The RWS enables me to cut loose and use my imagination. Interesting. Aerin

Rose	24 Mar 2003
I'm definitely a Rider-Waite-Smith Fan. I bought both the Thoth and the RWS decks at the same time, about 12 years ago. They were my first decks. At that time it was difficult,at least for me, to find books or other sources (like the internet) of information. It was frankly easier to relate to the pictures on the RWS deck. Somewhere down the line I started a notebook. Over the years what started out as a sentence or two for each card turned into pages of notes for each card. I am constantly surprised at the new insights the RWS deck can give me. Choosing a deck is a highly personal choice. I believe it is equally valid to use the Rider-Waite, Thoth, or Marseille. I don't think one is deeper than the other. I've noticed that some people have stated that they see the Rider-Waite image as they are using the Thoth. Thirteen said that Crowley's definition of the 6 of swords as "rational thinking" can be applied to the RW 6 of swords -"coming to mean that one's mind can reach the other shore, find answers as well a relief--conclusions, ephiphanies." I often see the RWS 6 of swords as a boat full of swords (thoughts) being ferried across a river-meaning the way is clear,-you are reaching a state of clarity, a higher level of awareness and understanding-a passage from one level of understanding to another. If I want to use a meaning based on number and elemental association-because for a particular reading that makes sense to me-the RWS minor cards are associated with a number and element just like an unillustrated pip. The Ministry for the Misuse of Magical Items will not knock on my door with an arrest warrant if I ignore the picture on the cards. They are my cards and it's my reading. Studying different systems can bring greater understanding to tarot cards in general. Between the internet, with forums like this one, and a good choice of available books you don't even necessarily have to use a particular deck to get insights from it. Lastly, I have to put in a plug for Carol Herzer's Illuminated Tarot-a vivid repainting of Pamela Coleman-Smith's drawings. The handmade deck is expensive (I have the large size with irridescent colors) but it is beautiful and probably much easier to connect to than other RWS decks. The images are the same but it's like reading with a new deck. Note: The scans on the internet, even on the artist's site, distort the colors on the cards. Rose

lawguy51	24 Mar 2003
I love this debate. I'm a recent Thoth convert. Those of you who know me or have had readings from me know that I have most often used the Victoria Regina or Universal Waite decks for readings. However, over Christmas I became intrigued by the Haindl deck and read Rachel Pollacks's two books on the major and minor arcana. And I tried and tried to read with the Haindl deck with mixed success. The court cards just didn't connect with me for one, and I sometimes needed my reading glasses to notice the subtleties of the pips. Then I think it was Mystique Moonlight who suggested I look at the Thoth...go to the source so to speak. And eureka, I immediatley connected with the deck. I bought the large one and the small one. For those of you who haven't used the Thoth deck, it has the best court cards of any deck, cards that evoke meaning instead of leaving you staring at a guy on a throne. Now, I love the RWS deck too. In fact, I find when I'm reading the Thoth deck, my mind treats it like it's a second language and often, when I draw say, the 5 of cups, I see the figure standing before the three overturned cups, as if Thoth was French and I'm translating the card into English. But the pips are so evocative, that I am slowly learning the language and refer mentally to the RWS meanings less and less. Where I am conflicted is where cards in the Thoth and RWS decks have such divergent meaning. Like the 7 of Disks for instance. And there are many RWS meanings that I can't let go of, like the 8 of Cups, so I don't. I've only burned one book in my life...it was Gems From The Equinox by Israel Regardie. This was years ago after a friend of mine totally freaked me out one day with stories about Jimmy Page who lives in Crowley's house and who had apparently put a curse on her because of her relationship with a friend of his. It was so scary that I went home and tossed the book in the fire. It had always spooked me and I don't know why I ever bought it. So I'm no Crowley fan. (Wish I still had the book though, red leather bound, looked nice :) ). But the Thoth deck is amazing. I've only been at this Tarot thing for less than a year but I feel like I've graduated. Almost every day I do a 3 card spread with the Thoth deck and every day the cards tell me like it is. An amazing deck. But I love the RWS deck too. I guess it's now more of my study deck. And I'm happiest when the meanings of the two decks integrate. Lawguy51 p.s. I must confess that the two cards I designed for the Aeclectic Tarot Deck II were totally RWS!

Emily	26 Mar 2003
I first posted in this thread months ago, not sure when, but I said that I didn't think I was ready to move beyond Rider Waite symbolism, and not ready for the Thoth or thoth based deck. Well that was then lol. My first Thoth based deck was the Crow's Magick, a nice deck but not so easy to use, there's not alot to go on when looking at the cards but my next was the Rohrig, very nice cards, easy to read with but very different to the Rider Waite I was used to. Then it ocurred to me, if I like Thoth symbolism why didn't I use the Thoth deck so I've bought a new standard sized none-green version of the Thoth and its really opened my eyes up, whatever hang-up I had with the large green version of this deck has gone. I'm using these cards daily, and when I look at them I don't have to think what the corresponding card looks like in the Rider Waite, because the symbolism is there on the Thoth. The cards are visually powerful, much like the Rider Waite the only drawback is most of my books are Rider Waite and I now feel the need to really get to know the symbolism and meaning behind the Thoth cards. But the Thoth study group here is becoming one of my favourite places lol (Even if I haven't posted much yet, I'm too busy reading ) :) Edited to add :- Just checked and I posted in this thread first around a year ago lol

paradoxx	21 Apr 2003
I have just recently purchased the "green" Thoth variant. I am pleased with it, depending on teh lighting in my room a single spread can give multiple interpretations. The deck i purchased before that was the universal waite, nice, i like this coloring. I prefer this court system for generalized terms but Crowley can grow on me for all intents and purposes. The first deck i purchased was actually the Egyptain Tarot as realized on Papyrus style. If there was a choice to be made, some kind of rw clone (not the rw itself). Probably the Cosmic Tarot, its riderwaite symbolisim is mixed with Golden Dawn ideas blending with celebrity faces makes this deck ideal (that and several cards look like me and my friends, who needs photos?). Thats my two dollars (two cents doesn't get anything any more)

C.N.	06 May 2003
RWS gets my vote. However, I guess that I'm not really fair against the Thoth deck, because I did the mistake of readling Crowley's book, while I haven't done the mistake of reading Waite's book. I have a great dislike for the esoteric, I consider all talk and hints about hidden mystic knowledge to be waste of time. If I'm not getting the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth, I'm not intrested. As it is now I associate RWS with the images on the cards only, while I associate Thoth with halfmad nonsense ramblings.

The Rider-Waite vs. Thoth thread was originally posted on 19 Mar 2002 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.