ancient egyptian deck

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 22 May 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

truthsayer	22 May 2002
just thought i'd let those who need to know(addicts) that amazon contacted me that my pre-order for the clive barret ancient egyptian deck is now on the way! i'll keep y'all posted what my impressions are when it arrives. :)

faunabay	22 May 2002
Me too! Me too! Me too! Yea!!!!!! I got an email today telling me it was in the mail! :D

MystiqueMoonlight	23 May 2002
Great! I have placed a special order for this deck at my bookstore. So you guys will have it first of course. Please let us know what you think about it.

Violet Gargoyle	23 May 2002
let me know how it is, I have been looking at this deck for myself, actually a couple go Egyptian themed ones. I'm curious does anyone have a collection of tarot/oracle Egyptian themes? How do they measure up with each other?

Strange2	23 May 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Violet Gargoyle I'm curious does anyone have a collection of tarot/oracle Egyptian themes? How do they measure up with each other? For an excellent write-up on Egyptian themed tarot decks, check out Mark Filipas' article on "A History of Egyptian Tarot Decks", at: http://www.spiritone.com/~filipas/Masquerade/Reviews/historye.html I have several Egyptian themed decks in my collection, with my (current) favorites being the Ibis Tarot, Ancient Egyptian, Egipcios Kier, and the Book of Doors Divination Deck.

catlin	24 May 2002
I also got the notification from amazon.de for my Barrett deck. I hope it will turn out to be THE Egyptian deck in my collection.

Kiama	24 May 2002
What's the news with this deck? Is it OOP? If it is, then I know where I can get my copy from! Let us all know wat you think of it when you get it... Kiama

faunabay	24 May 2002
I got it in the mail today!!! The only word I have is... WOW WOW WOW This is one beautiful deck!!! It's so rich looking. I don't even know exactly what to say. I'm in awe! One of the reasons I wanted this deck was because although I love eqyptian symbology, none of the eqyptian decks really grabbed me. I mean I really like my book of doors, but I wanted a deck that was alittle bit more realistic looking. Not eqyptian artwork, but eqyptian life. And this deck has both!!! I can't wait to get into it more!! I definitely want to hear other's opinions when they get their decks! Truthsayer?????

faunabay	24 May 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama What's the news with this deck? Is it OOP? If it is, then I know where I can get my copy from! Let us all know wat you think of it when you get it... Kiama Kiama, I just noticed your question. It was OOP, but it was VERY recently re-issued. I had pre-ordered it on Amazon for when it was re-released and just got it today! So it should be in stores again pretty soon.

MystiqueMoonlight	25 May 2002
Faunabay, You're bad for my wallet's health. I can't wait to get my hands on this deck.....

truthsayer	25 May 2002
well, i'm a tad disappointed. :( all right, it's a beautiful deck--no complaint there. i do like the cross myth comparisons against the arthurian legends. my problem is that if this is truly an ancient egyptian deck why: 1. signs of being a ws clone? 6 of swords is always a dead ringer for this. could it be ws in egyptain clothes? 2. why all the cross referencing to astrology and the kabalah? i'm sure astrology was used then but not in the way shown in the book. isn't the kabalah jewish? what has that got to do w/ ancient egypt? 3. the author claims that it's been proven that the tarot began in egypt. i thought the strongest claims were for italy. 4. the ppl are a little too beautiful. kind of like ken and barbie dressed like egyptians. 5. yeah, there's egyptian symbols but i can see thinly disguised christian symbols. while barrett does a good attempt at explaining away the apples on the trees on the lovers as a reference to adam and eve, i still have a hard time accepting the explanation. 6. i wonder if they made clive barrett put pants on the hanged man? ;) 7. everything is explained away too smoothly and neatly. little is left to the imagination. i don't feel the mystery i usually feel w/ decks. hard to explain that one but there it is. sorry! but i think i've been spoiled by the appearance of the neferteri to tomb drawings and being aged. i think i'll do a comparison and get back to y'all. for some reason, i now feel grateful that neferteri doesn't have a good book to go by, that i do have to totally go by my intuition and that i don't understand all the symbols. i realize i like the mystery of not knowing the symbols. okay, umbrae! i'm ready to give on my hard line stance against burning LWB's. <<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>> it never pays to invest too much into being right. all my opinions all circumspect to being challenged on any given moment! LOL

faunabay	25 May 2002
Truthsayer, I'm kind of confused about some of the things you say???? I didn't have expectations for this to be a "true" egyptian deck in all aspects. I thought of it as a sort of theme deck, which let's face it, none (or very few) of the theme decks are true to form in ALL aspects. I may just be too easy to please though. ROFL But why is it a problem that it's a kind of RW clone???? Was it not supposed to be??? And I didn't read the book (just kind of scanned it) but I got the impression Barrett was saying that some people believe tarot started in Egypt but goes on to explain why, show why that's not right, and then continues on to say that Italy was more apt to be true in his opinion???? Yes, the people are kind of Ken and Barbieish - have to agree with you on that one. But it doesn't bother me at all! It has plenty of mystery to me, but I haven't read the whole book yet. :) Although even with the books I have for other decks, I don't read them very carefully. I just use them to explain things I notice that don't make sense. That way I can figure things out for myself. And I don't understand your comment about the Hanged Man? Did you want him to be naked??? ROFL When you compared this deck to the Neferteti and how it had tomb drawings and the aged look and how that's what you liked and were disappointed it didn't have it in this deck -- well that's exactly what I didn't want!!! I wanted a deck that showed more true to life/personal, not aged tomb drawings, artwork from that time (which I hadn't beable to find in any other egyptian deck). That's actually one of the big reasons (after seeing the scans) that I wanted this deck. It looked more true to life (as much as artwork can be anyway LOL) I still haven't had a chance to do anything else with it. I'll see if my opinions change as I work with it. But as of right now I love the artwork and feel I'll beable to work with it well. But as past experience shows me - I have to really work with a deck before I can tell for sure. Will get back to you then for true experience stories. :)

truthsayer	25 May 2002
faunabay, i think i was probably too hard on it. i'm sorry i sounded so critical. it's no reflection on anyone who likes it. haven't had a good night's sleep in days. if i ever catch up on my sleep then i'll prbably like it better. the reference to the hanged man was based on the thread on the rohrig. the publishers made rohrig draw pants on him. when i saw the HM i thought about the rohrig. :D i was making a bad joke. well, i think my statement of expecting AE to be more reminiscent of something truly ancient egyptian is my main problem w/ the deck. yes, it's more life like instead of a tomblike and that's good. i've read a lot on egyptian mythology and archetypes. i've devoured everything the media has come up w/ on ancient egypt since i was a child. i do need to study it more but i was expecting to see something based more on authentic egyptian mythology, archeology, and how it really was then. this isn't on the same kind archetypes as i was expecting. this is based more on ancient egyptian life and the myth of isis and osiris. this is a story that would prob be agree more w/ western myths. it's more optimistic. what i wrote was based on a first impression. not wanting to see another ws clone was wishful thinking. maybe i'm becoming too much of a stodgy deck connoisser? what i see here is a westernized view of ancient egypt. so i'll lower my expectations to a more realistic viewpoint and study it some more later. it's a beautiful deck but i wrongly expected more actual egyptian authenticity. i really didn't mean to sound insulting. just the way i came off. sorry! :( it's hard to explain why it doesn't have the same sense of mystery to me but it think that's b/c of being a ws spin-off.

truthsayer	25 May 2002
faunabay, don't forget this is the same person that had a bad experience w/ world spirit but now i'm in a study group and tarot role playing game for it. also remember how much i've said about not liking the cosmic tribe? well, it came in the mail yesterday. my first impression of it was favorable!!!!! LOL i loved it's originality and freeness. imagine that! :p it takes me a while to warm up to some decks and others i take an immediate liking to. give me some time w/ this one. i still stand by my original negative first impressions of world spirit and cosmic tribe but they grew on me and i changed. input from ppl here also led to me questioning myself. so question! it's good for my mind to be changed about decks.

MystiqueMoonlight	25 May 2002
[quote]Originally posted by truthsayer [b]well, i'm a tad disappointed. :( all right, it's a beautiful deck--no complaint there. i do like the cross myth comparisons against the arthurian legends. my problem is that if this is truly an ancient egyptian deck why: 2. why all the cross referencing to astrology and the kabalah? i'm sure astrology was used then but not in the way shown in the book. isn't the kabalah jewish? what has that got to do w/ ancient egypt? (Moses was an Egyptian and one theory is that he received the Kabalah at the same time as the Ten Commandments) 3. the author claims that it's been proven that the tarot began in egypt. i thought the strongest claims were for italy. (From what I read over the years it has not really been proven where the origins of the Tarot are. I think the association to Egypt is a spin off from the connection to the Cabalah and Moses because he was an Egyptian) 5. yeah, there's egyptian symbols but i can see thinly disguised christian symbols. while barrett does a good attempt at explaining away the apples on the trees on the lovers as a reference to adam and eve, i still have a hard time accepting the explanation. (Don't forget, despite the Christian belief that it was an Apple Adam and Eve bit into, the theory is that it is more likely to have been a fig as that is a native plant to that region of the world and fig leaves are what they covered their 'privates' with when they realised they were naked) I am waiting for this deck to arrive to me, so I am most interested in seeing what it can offer.... Blessed be

faunabay	25 May 2002
truth, Please don't worry. I was in NO WAY offended! Just kind of curious as to why you had some of those reactions. Oh and by the way, I usually react exactly the opposite to decks than you. I absolutely love them......until I start working with them. LOL For example I loved the Wild Spirit deck until I really got into it - now I don't like it at all! :( So we'll see how things work out as I start getting into this deck. :) But so far I really do love it!!!! :D

SharonElizabeth	25 May 2002
...and I can't find it. You are getting it on Amazon? I can't even find it used on amazon. According to Amazon it's out of print. The only option is to preorder it used. I even tried to find it on the usgames site but they are having server problems. Am I missing somethng? Could somebody possibly send a link to the product description from amazon or point me in the right direction. I saw this deck reviewed on www.wicce.com and loved it the minute I saw the images from it. Especially the three of swords. It really spells out the meaning of the card. The Moon really attracted me too.

truthsayer	26 May 2002
i can consider the argument of moses being egyptian and that's where kabalah etc. comes in as being legit. it still doesn't mesh in my mind as true egyptian.i guess what i'm trying to say is i want a pagan egyptian tarot!!!! LOL i'm not comfortable w/ what feels like christian references to me. it's bad enough that celtic/arthurian decks are tainted w/ it, too. nefertari really spoiled me. in fact, i think the original nongold foiled version, tarot of the sphynx is back in print. at least that's what i saw at amazon. i ordered a copy! what else could i do? ;) i think i just love the rustic art on those 2 decks. i've long been a fan of tomb art. i remember the ectasy i felt when i saw true egyptian art and a mummy at the smithsonian for the first time! it's strange to me that egyptian ken and barbies would bother me considering how much i like the mat myers art nouveau. however, if i can work thru not liking cosmic tribe and world spirit after working w/ them, i think i can deal w/ this.

MystiqueMoonlight	26 May 2002
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer i can consider the argument of moses being egyptian and that's where kabalah etc. comes in as being legit. it still doesn't mesh in my mind as true egyptian.i guess what i'm trying to say is i want a pagan egyptian tarot!!!! LOL i'm not comfortable w/ what feels like christian references to me. it's bad enough that celtic/arthurian decks are tainted w/ it, too. I understand EXACTLY what you mean Truthsayer. I am never really comfortable with Christian references because for me I always get that feeling that with some how the Tarot has been manipulated to be not quite what it should be and to have only one specific purpose Quote: Originally posted by Truthsayer nefertari really spoiled me. in fact, i think the original nongold foiled version, tarot of the sphynx is back in print. at least that's what i saw at amazon. i ordered a copy! what else could i do? ;) i think i just love the rustic art on those 2 decks. i've long been a fan of tomb art. i remember the ectasy i felt when i saw true egyptian art and a mummy at the smithsonian for the first time! There is definetly something in that Egyptian art that gives a clear message to me as well. I don't know anything about Egyptian history apart from what I learnt in school. My Neferatari's Tarot will be reserved for spellworking and the occassional divination. I have ordered the Ancient Egyptian Tarot and because we seem to see things in a similar fashion I suspect that my initial reaction to it will be much the same as yours. I haven't been sitting on the edge of my sit waiting for it since I special ordered it from my bookstore a couple of months ago, but I am interested in having it. Maybe when I do get it you and I should do a comparitive read with it and compare our thoughts again?? blessed be

Lee	26 May 2002
Quote: Originally posted by SharonElizabeth ...and I can't find it. You are getting it on Amazon? I can't even find it used on amazon. According to Amazon it's out of print. Hi, SharonElizabeth -- The problem is that the original edition of this deck is out of print, and there is now a new edition. But Amazon has *both* versions listed, which does lead to confusion. Here is a link to the one on Amazon which is in print (this is an Aeclectic link, so if you buy it from this link, it will help to support Aeclectic). -- Lee :)

truthsayer	26 May 2002
Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight I have ordered the Ancient Egyptian Tarot and because we seem to see things in a similar fashion I suspect that my initial reaction to it will be much the same as yours. I haven't been sitting on the edge of my sit waiting for it since I special ordered it from my bookstore a couple of months ago, but I am interested in having it. Maybe when I do get it you and I should do a comparitive read with it and compare our thoughts again?? blessed be yes, i think that would be an enjoyable experience. in the meantime, i will be adjusting my views on AE. in the "all is one" thread, there are a couple of posts questiong moses' role w/ the tarot. catboxer indicated that this is based on false info started by french occultists in the 18th century. could clive barrett have taken this story about moses seriously? of course, we'd have to ask him to know for sure. ;)

Zhritza	26 May 2002
Quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by truthsayer i can consider the argument of moses being egyptian and that's where kabalah etc. comes in as being legit. it still doesn't mesh in my mind as true egyptian.i guess what i'm trying to say is i want a pagan egyptian tarot!!!! LOL i'm not comfortable w/ what feels like christian references to me. it's bad enough that celtic/arthurian decks are tainted w/ it, too. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight I understand EXACTLY what you mean Truthsayer. I am never really comfortable with Christian references because for me I always get that feeling that with some how the Tarot has been manipulated to be not quite what it should be and to have only one specific purpose Guys, I don't know if it's really accurate to see the Kabbalah and references to it as Christian-flavored. Of course I understand that Judaism birthed Christianity, which is why we have the term "Judeo-Christian" to refer to traditional ideas and imagery that many of us feel we are breaking from. But I think that this lumping together of all things Jewish and Christian, even when talking about gut reactions we have to things, is potentially sloppy. Kabbalah has very little to do with Christianity, except in the sense that it came to full fruition in the Middle Ages, during which period the followers of Jesus were persecuting the Jews (not that that's Jesus' fault). It developed among the Jews at a time when Jews were vastly isolated form Christians in terms of idea exchanges. I also frequently hear people blur Judaism and Christianity together (say "Judeo-Christian" when they mean "Christian" really) when talking about the negative repercussions of beliefs about hell, fire and brimstone, all that -- which from a practical standpoint is not at all relevant to the beliefs of most Jews today. Yes, the orthodoxy buys into that stuff, but they're a tiny minority of Jewry. I don't believe in hell, or in the intense divisions between sinner and innocent that characterizes much of Christianity, and none of the other Jews I know do either. Also, much of the dysfunction that people usually are referencing about Christianity in this context is about Christianity only. Let's not blur the compared characteristics of the two religions to the point of inaccuracy.

truthsayer	26 May 2002
qolus, i have always seen the kabalah as connected to judeo-christianity. i appreciate you explaining the difference. you're right that it's often lumped together-even in world religion classes i've taken where you'd think the instructor would know better. i've studied the kabalah only a little. for some reason i can't get into it and have never believed it to be a vital part of tarot. is it true that the kabalah is like jewish mysticism? i know some about the tree of life and have tried the spread. i'm usually drawn to abstract concepts but books using the qabalah like the witches qabalah by ellen cannon reed or eileen conally's books leave me flat. do you think that it's an important part of tarot? my understanding is that the golden dawn introduced kabalah to the tarot. the golden dawn namely crowley added egyptian elements in the book of thoth and the deck. there are too many myths about how certain elements came to tarot and from where. i really prefer to just use my intuition and forget the systems. i'm drawn more to imagery intuition than abstract tools to divine tarot. i'm also coming to decide the less i know about certain authors the better. just take the deck at the value you perceive it at and let it go at that. different strokes for different folks.

MeeWah	26 May 2002
Truthsayer, Faunabay, Lee, etc: I have the original version of Ancient Egyptian, & I love it! It remains one of my favorite reading decks. I have long been drawn to ancient Egypt. This deck was the only one amongst the very few Egyptian-themed decks some years ago that appealed. While I love the traditional artwork, I also love the artwork on this deck because it is more life-like. I used to hang out at the Museum of Natural History in New York City, which had a section devoted to ancient Egypt. The artifacts give a glimpse of the life of that time, although the common person of that time likely did not possess much of the items gleaned from royal tombs. I also saw the Egyptian wing at the British Museum in London--now that one is mag! Qolus: Thank you very much for the clarification. You are correct about the sloppy associations, which only lead to more confusion.

MystiqueMoonlight	26 May 2002
I wasn't for a moment suggesting that the Cabbalah had any Christian connection. It is an old Jewish system which today even some modern Jews reject. By Christian connections in the Tarot I am referring to those decks which use the Papal ordering systems (like some of the Italian decks), images of the Hangedman which don't look to dissimilar to those images of Christ, etc. IMO the theory that the Tarot originated in Italy is merely a rumour perpetuated by The Church after it's approval of the use of the Tarot and only after it's heavy 'editing' of the cards to fit within a christian system. (and that's my opinion). The Cabbalah has nothing to do with this. My mention of the Cabbalah is in relation to the connection to Moses, who let's face it, could not have been 'Christian' because he was around at a time long before Christ was. The Jewish system follows the Old Testament and whilst some Jews don't deny that Christ may have existed they certainly do not believe that he was the Messiah. They believe that the Messiah is yet to come. The Christians follow both the Old and the New Testament. My point was that Moses was Jewish and he was Egyptian. It is said that he received the Cabbalah at the same time as the Ten Commandments. Here. I suppose, lies the confusion and the cross over of the Jewish/Christian/Egyptian argument within the Tarot system. I don't fully understand the Cabbalah to be honest as I have only just begun to study it. So with that and the Tree of Life I am not at liberty to add to much scholastic comment.

truthsayer	26 May 2002
is there a good light reading book on the history of tarot? light b/c i know i won't read anything heavy right now-it getting to be summer and nothing dry for any season. not that i want to read a "national enquirer" style book but at least entertaining and not too scholarly. i feel so ignorant but i can see how a better understanding of tarot's history could benefit me. i know i've resisted b/c i get so angry when i read about how the church messed w/ the cards and paganism to maipulate things to their liking. i have no doubt this has to do w/ present and ancient wounds. it's probably just time to bite the bullet and just do it. if i remember correctly, it was from brian williams' writings that i got the idea that tarot had been proven to have begun in florence, italy. that's why i questioned the egyptian roots of tarot. i've been really into brian's works lately. i've never heard that moses received the 10 commandments and kabalah at the same time. if you don't mind my asking, mystiquemoonlight, how are you going about studying the kabalah? i've tried several ways-books, pictures, and even an internet group. books bored me. i only understood pictures superficially and the kabalah group couldn't stop arguing about various points about the kabalah! i gave up. is there a kabalah study group here? i'd like to find some way to garner a better understand of it.

MystiqueMoonlight	26 May 2002
Hi Truthsayer, To be frank I am reading books on the Cabbalah. A few different types to be honest as I tend to be open to a lot of ideas rather than resrict myself to just one authors or one belief system. A good starting point is Ellen Cannon Reed's The Witches Qabala The Pagan Path and The Tree of Life ISBN 0-87728-880-1 It is easy reading and has many illustrations. I am also plowing through Israel Regardie's A Garden of Pomegranets but it is very heavy going. Some of Crowley's works are good material also. Maybe we should start a study group or something. I'm not too good at study groups though becuase I have a very hectic lifestyle....it's my job (an artist) so I could only contribute to that once in a while. Alternatively we could study together on this if you like, we could switch ideas via email or on the forum and anyone who would like to be involved could do so (that's a study group isn't it?? LOL) I understand what you're saying though. The Qabala is very confusing.... :confused:

Lee	26 May 2002
I've tried to learn/read about the Cabala, but like many who have posted, I can't seem to really absorb it. However, I would like to mention that at the Tarot conference in Chicago two years ago, I heard Rachel Pollack talk about the Cabala and its influence on the Tarot, and she pointed out that although Cabala itself is indeed a form of Jewish mysticism which isn't related to Christianity, the fact is that the way the members of the Order of the Golden Dawn (including Waite and Crowley) used the Cabala was very Christian-oriented and is really a different animal from strictly Jewish Cabala. Probably all of the Cabala as we read about it now in relation to the Tarot, including Eileen Cannon Reed, is derived from the Golden Dawn-style Cabala. I've seen this myself when I go to the bookstore and look in the Judaica section. If you look through the books on Cabala there, they really don't seem very much related at all to the Tarot-related Cabala materials. Also, people who are into Jewish Cabala nowadays don't know anything about the Tarot and couldn't care less about it. The Christian-oriented Golden Dawn members basically appropriated concepts they found in the Jewish Cabala and used it for their own ends. I'm no history expert and I'm sure I'm wrong in at least some particulars, but I think what I've written is for the most part accurate. -- Lee

Strange2	26 May 2002
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer is there a kabalah study group here? i'd like to find some way to garner a better understand of it. Yes indeed, there is a study group on Qabalah and Tarot that has just started up here on Aeclectic. It's in the Study Group forum, under the General section. Here's the link to the messages... http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3601

truthsayer	26 May 2002
thanks, lee. i appreciate knowing that i'm not the only person that finds the kabalah mystifying. what your saying about what the golden dawn makes sense b/c to me the way the kabalah is used in tarot does have a christian influence instead of jewish. at least not jewish the way i understand judaism. when i tried to be in a jewish kabalah group, nothing they posted made any sense in relation to what i know about tarot. i think i have a point of reference to work w/ here. i'm going to delve into my rachel pollack books. i think she'll help resolve my confusion. on back to the cards. i looked at the book and the cards again. i read clive barrett's explanation of that he was trying to create an egyptian deck w/ a rider waite influence so anyone could read it quickly w/o having to learning a lot about ancient egypt. okay, that makes sense. i understand how others want to see egyptians the way they lived. that's good. it's the same w/ a lot of other deck based on other ancient civilizations. i appreciate the sentiment but i'm so in love w/ reproductions of tomb art and egyptians magick spells to the afterlife that in the case of ancient egypt, it's just what i prefer. i feel more connected to nefertari for this reason.

Zhritza	26 May 2002
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer i've studied the kabalah only a little. for some reason i can't get into it and have never believed it to be a vital part of tarot. is it true that the kabalah is like jewish mysticism? That's how it's usually characterized... An important distinction to make is that between kabbalah as it pertains to the "occult," including tarot, and kabbalah as it is studied by Orthodox (primarily) Jews today and has been for hundreds of years. In terms of its actual content I know about as much as you do, truth, because my interest in it is primarily tarot-related: the parts of it that talk about Tree of Life numerology and its associations are what we've learned about. But the Kabbalah is also a scripture, or group of scriptures, that according to tradition only men who are 40 or older are supposed to study. I've read some overview-type material about the kabbalah in this sense, and it seems to largely be more numerology, including a convoluted system for getting closer to God through ten different levels of heaven that apparently exist. I have next to no interest in it at this point, although this may change when I know more about it. (If anyone has studied it in any depth, by all means, correct me.) ----------------- posted by MystiqueMoonlight My point was that Moses was Jewish and he was Egyptian. It is said that he received the Cabbalah at the same time as the Ten Commandments. ----------------- Yes, his Egyptianness in the Old Testament is an excellent point, I have no problem with that comment; I hadn't thought about its repercussions in tarot actually, so thank you, I'm glad you brought it up. :)

catlin	27 May 2002
I got my ancient egyptian deck on Saturday. I still have had no time to check it out properly, just flipped it through twice and had a scan at the book. The deck is very beautiful but I am not so sure if I will read with it. Frankly speaking I expected to get a RSW variation with beauties on it but as I primerily ordered it for collector's reason I do not mind that. I was a bit disappointed by the book. I expected more but as I get more and more hard to please with decks (ok, I am a typical Virgo in that!), I even accept that. I still have had no time to check Mr. Barrett's point of view with tarot history.

MystiqueMoonlight	27 May 2002
AAaaarrrrgggg! My bookstore told me today I will have to wait another 4 weeks. I would order it through Aeclectic to Amazon but the exchange rate as it is makes it difficult. My keyboard finger is getting itchy and my credit card is getting edgy though....

Kiama	27 May 2002
*Sigh* You guys have convinced me... If this deck is still in the shop next time I go there, I will buy it... But I don't think I'll go out of my way to get it... Kiama

Maan	27 May 2002
Is there any difference between the first edition and the new one? I have the old edition and i'm really curious if there are any changes

SharonElizabeth	27 May 2002
Let me tell you, I've been having dreams about this deck. So using the link Lee so kindly supplied, I purchased the deck. I'm pretty eager to take a look at it. :D

Lee	27 May 2002
I just used that same link and ordered it too! :rolleyes: -- Lee

purplelady	30 May 2002
This is one of those" I sort-of want it and am especially curious to check it out but not sure I really want it " decks on my wish list! ;) ! I've waffled back and forth on it for years now and suspect I Will get it at some point , Especially since it's been reprinted. Overall , most of the reviews I've read have lots of praise for this deck and some are kind-of negative about "nefertiti" deck . So that's interesting that you prefer that deck truthsayer. It just goes to prove once again, that tarot decks really are personal choice and everyone will have a different opinion.

faunabay	31 May 2002
OK, I've worked with it a few times now. I love, love, love the artwork. It's sooo beautiful, but I'm not getting much out of the one reading I've tried so far. It may be because this is the first egyptian deck I've ever worked with. And because I love the pretty pictures sooo much I'm going to work with it some more. Even if I can't read with it I'll keep it though because.....have I told you yet how much I love the artwork?? ROFL

Jewel	31 May 2002
I "HAD" to have this deck as I did not own an Egyptian deck and I have heard (and read) that it is the most accurate in terms of period clothing, weapons used in cards, etc. It arrived last week, but I have not been home long enough to even open the package from Amazon!!!! ... well at least I know I have a pleasant surprise waiting for me :) ... Faunabay you and I love the same decks and artwork pretty much so now that I have heard your opinion I am really dying to go home and open my deck!!!! P.S. Kiama, if your goal is to own EVERY tarot deck then of course you have to buy it!!!

SharonElizabeth	01 Jun 2002
Well, I just got my deck in the mail today. I'm pretty impressed with it, but not as in love with it as I thought I would be. There are some cards that really amaze me in the way Barrett has chosen to depict the meanings, the the three of swords, ten of swords, and death. There are some cards that seem very similar to rider waite. I can see why the deck only comes available with the book. There is so much symbology that unless you were an egyptology expert, you'd miss out on it. It is a very beautiful deck though, and I'm looking forward to getting to know it better.

Lee	08 Jun 2002
I received mine... I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned this, but it strikes me that the Ancient Egyptian is very Thoth-influenced (although not art-wise). There are several pictorial elements that are reminiscent of Thoth (two examples: the camel on the Priestess card, and the way the World dancer's foot rests on the head of a snake); the book contains titles for the Minor cards which match the Thoth titles; and although the Court cards are named Princess, Prince, Queen and King, pictorially they match the Thoth Courts, with the Princes drawn by chariots and the Kings on horseback. This might be a good deck for someone who would like an illustrated-Minor deck which is Thoth-influenced. It's certainly one of the most beautiful decks in my collection. The art reminds me in some ways of the Universal Tarot by Maxwell Miller. The fact that some of the figures are bald, and they way they are posed, makes me think of the Navigators of the Mystic Sea deck. I think the cards are very atmospheric, and for me they read great. -- Lee

truthsayer	08 Jun 2002
you know, lee, your idea that AE has a strong thoth influence makes perfect sense. it explains away my previous complaints about this deck. i can see the thoth correlations and i think i can be happy w/ this deck now. i just couldn't wrap my mind around it being a rws clone w/ all those kaballah and astrology influences. something just didn't fit. now i'm scratching my head and thinking,"DUH!" i can accept it being influenced by both. well, i'll give it another shot! ;)

MystiqueMoonlight	08 Jun 2002
Gee guys! I am still waiting for my bookstore to get this deck in for me. I have it on a special order. Reading your posts I am getting quite anxious about this deck. The fact that you are now saying that it seems to be a blend of both AE and Thoth has me on the edge of my seat. Can you use an example of a particular card that you see as having influences of AE & Thoth and scan it for those of us who don't yet have this deck, with an explanation as to how you see this card having both influences in it? Thanks :)

Lee	08 Jun 2002
Hi, Mystique -- Whenever I try to attach scans, it doesn't seem to work for me. However, if you click here, that will take you to Clive Barrett's website, and if you click on the left on "Sample Cards," and then click on Wheel of Fortune, you will see that although the style is different, there are similarities to the same card in the Thoth deck. Also, you can click on the Moon, and you'll see that the card is set up basically the same as in the Thoth deck. The Hierophant card, although he doesn't have it there, has an elephant and a bull on it, as in Thoth. But the biggest similarity, as I wrote above, is the Court cards. They really are obviously modeled on the Thoth ones, with the Princesses of Wands and Swords standing next to small stone columns or whatever they're called, the Princes riding in chariots, the Queens seated on thrones (the Queen of Swords even holds a sword in one hand and a head in the other, as in the Thoth), and the Kings on horseback. I was a little confused, Mystique, when you say "influences of AE and Thoth." It's the AE (Ancient Egyptian) deck that we're talking about, no? Did you mean RWS and Thoth? The RWS influences are mostly in the Minors 1-10, which have pictures mostly based upon the RWS, although they are given the Thoth titles in the book (they're untitled on the cards). In the 7 of Disks, the picture is more Thoth than RWS -- it shows a woman staring at arid ground ("Failure"), rather than the more ambiguous RWS picture. Hope this helps... :) -- Lee

MystiqueMoonlight	09 Jun 2002
Thanks Lee, Yes of I did mean RW not AE....and now that you mention it I see what you mean about those similarities. I hadn't really digested the cards from the site.... Well I ordered the deck set from Amazon via Aeclectic because I can't wait for my bookshop, and because it will go towards this site and because it should arrive around my birthday... and I can't wait to get my hands around this deck! :)

truthsayer	10 Jun 2002
it took at least a couple of hours but i did a comparison study of both decks. my verdict? it has to be more than a coincidence that there are so many thoth symbols in this deck. sometimes its a bit abstract like the thoth card is a certain planet in a certain astrological sign and a word like futility. then the AE will show an image of futility or use a symbol for the sign or something else. in the major arcana, i found at least one direct symbol no matter how small on all the cards but the star. i could see similarities but nothing as direct as in other majors. the court cards had even more amazing parallels. if you have these 2 decks then please do a comparison. it's not the rws clone like i originally said. in my defense, the thoth deck symbols in AE are subtler. someone who took hours to study thoth and i do mean hours to find a way to work those symbols into AE in a natural way. as usual there are weaker and stronger cards. didn't i say in some post that whatever negative i think about a deck that in some point of time i will eat my words? well, CHOMP!! CHOMP!! :D LOL for those of you who don't have both decks, i'll try to do some comparison scans to demonstrate tomorrow. it does help to have some background in astrology. there are probably some kabalah references but i didn't look for those. i can see other comparison projects i want to do w/ the AE. for example, compare rws w/ it. i am gaining more respect for clive barrett by the minute. i think in the future, i'll try to keep my opinion to myself a bit longer! ;) LOL w/ all this work, i guess the next step is a deck review.

Jewel	10 Jun 2002
Well I finally got the chance to look through the deck and all I can say is WOW! It is breathtaking. The artwork is stunning, and if it pans out that I cannot read with it so be it, the deck is worth having simply for the artwork. Lee and Truthsayer, thanks for the bit about the comparisons of this deck to the Thoth, perhaps that is part of the reason why I have been so drawn to it lately. It seems that I keep moving more and more in the direction of Thoth type decks (including the Thoth of course). This is the only Egyptian deck I have, and what a treasure it appears to be!

Lee	10 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer w/ all this work, i guess the next step is a deck review. I vote in favor of a new review by Truthsayer! :) -- Lee

MystiqueMoonlight	10 Jun 2002
Just to let ya'll know I have secured Clive Barrett as our newest member to Aeclectic Tarot Forum. He has read through this thread and this is what he had to say:- "....I am impressed by the thoroughness of the Aeclectic web site, and amazed by the degree of interest in the AET." I am doing an interview with him for everyone, however due to his busy schedule it will take a few weeks to post. Blessed be .....

truthsayer	10 Jun 2002
mystiquemoonlight, i want you to know i nearly went into coronary arrest when i came to aeclectic this afternoon and saw clive barrett's name. i thought,"oh, NO! what's he going to do when he sees all the "evaluation" i've done of this deck?" i just had a sinking feeling he wasn't going to take it well. i was even afraid to check my pms and email! LOL so when i saw your post i decided i feel a little better when he didn't say anything nasty. what a relief! ROFL! :D sorry i haven't done those scans yet. the weather was nice and i felt really good so i've been out in the sunshine all day and loving it! :)

faunabay	11 Jun 2002
I'm with you truth, just not for the same reason. LOL When I clicked onto aeclectic and saw Clive Barrett's name listed as the newest member I just about had a heart attack too - from excitment!!! How cool is this! But it does kind of make me think back to how many other deck creators could have read what we've written just not signed on to the forum?!?!! Oh Uh!! ROFLMAO :D

MystiqueMoonlight	11 Jun 2002
Well guys the majority of you have constructive comments to say. Personally I enjoyed corresponding with all of you and I have no doubt that if any of the artists have read any of your comments the would probably be as pleased and impressed as Clive Barrett and the rest of the forum members. Remember it is always the experience of the reader that counts more over than the artist. Blessed be

catlin	11 Jun 2002
Hi Mystique, Ok, you were quicker to mention this so I can only add that a reprint of Mr Barrett's Norse tarot is also taken in consideration.

Jewel	11 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Lee I vote in favor of a new review by Truthsayer! :) -- Lee I am voting with Lee here! Hey Mystique, very cool about Clive Barrett. I look forward to it!

truthsayer	11 Jun 2002
btw, has anyone read my first review about the mountain dream yet? solandia posted it this weekend. i feel so proud! thanks for the encouragement everyone has given me to do deck reviews. i'm not sure i'd have the courage otherwise.

Jewel	11 Jun 2002
Does that mean you will do the Nefertari AET comparison review? ~looks hopefully at Truthsayer~

truthsayer	11 Jun 2002
yes, it's all in the works.

Kaz	11 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer btw, has anyone read my first review about the mountain dream yet? truthsayer, good of you to tell us it's there ! i didn't know and went of to read it, great review, i like reading what this time and location meant to you in combo with the deck and the images. i don't like the deck though :( go here and read peeps, http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/mountain-dream/review.html kaz

Scorpion	11 Jun 2002
OK guys, I give in - I have to have this one too! I was debating it as it tried to throw itself off a bookshelf at me on Monday but I bore in mind the mixed reviews at that point and managed to resist - how can I now, when everyone else has got it?! And particularly now that I've looked at Clive Barrett's website: it was love from the moment I saw the Fool! Oh well, more studying..............!

Jewel	12 Jun 2002
Last night I spent a little time with the AET, no readings just time together. The more I look at this deck the more I love the art. Now this may sound very silly, but I know nothing of Egyptology, so those with knowledge help me out here please (or Clive if you are out here) ... it is in regards to the dresses of the women in this deck ... I noticed that most dresses leave the breasts free, not covered. Was this the way they dressed during these times? I am simply curious and trying to educate myself (and no I have not read the book yet). I am really looking forward to working more with this deck, particularly looking at it side by side with the Thoth to look more into Lee's observations.

purplelady	12 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Jewel Now this may sound very silly, but I know nothing of Egyptology, so those with knowledge help me out here please (or Clive if you are out here) ... it is in regards to the dresses of the women in this deck ... I noticed that most dresses leave the breasts free, not covered. Was this the way they dressed during these times? I am simply curious and trying to educate myself (and no I have not read the book yet). I also wonder whether the average egyptian woman went about her day in one of these dresses also? LOL But if you look at aeclectic's front page, the featured deck "Tarot of the master" is of a totally different time and culture, but the woman still wears this same style dress! Perhaps both decks' artists were male?

Clive Barrett	12 Jun 2002
Hello, I'd like to say thank you to everyone, for your interest and comments regarding the Ancient Egyptian Tarot. It always interesting to hear the views of others regarding the AET, as generally it is difficult for an author or illustrator to access feedback for their work. It is to be hoped that, now my interest in this forum is known, the frankness of contributors will not be affected. I have learned much reading this and other threads. It was mentioned earlier that I have been approached about an interview and, as I have no knowledge of the questions I will be asked, I am hesitant of entering too fully into this discussion. However, Maan asked if there is any difference between the original and the new printing - apart from the cover - there is no difference. I believe that the publisher still had several thousand unpacked decks remaining from the first printing, additional decks have been printed along with copies of the book. So, if you have the original, there is no need to buy the reprint. Regarding egyptian costume shown in the deck - as a practising archaeologist I made a conscious decision, early on in the planning of the deck, that the clothing (as with everything else) should be depicted as accurately as possible. Unlike Hollywood film makers, I was, thankfully, free from the pressure of censors, and so was able to ensure that the clothing reflected that found in egyptian art of the period. Also, a number of posts commented on the book supplied with the deck. This was in the end a compromise, the book I originally wrote was much longer and offered more in-depth explanations of the cards, unfortunately the size and number of pages was dictated by the publisher, so it had to be edited quite heavily. (There are those who say this may not have been a bad thing, arguing that knowledge gained through endeavour is valued much more than knowledge freely given.) I have considered proposing ‘The Complete Ancient Egyptian Tarot’ to my publisher but as time goes on I continue to make discoveries about the deck which I was not aware during it’s creation. It may be more appropriate to include the ‘lost’ sections on my web site http://www.mythographica.com at present I am undecided. Thanks once again. Clive

truthsayer	13 Jun 2002
hi! thanks for responding to our discussion. i found your comments insightful and helpful. knowing that your publisher had you edit out large portions of the book helps me a lot. imho they erred by not publishing the complete book. i'm sure information essential for really understand AE was stripped away for purpose of simplication. simplication isn't always a good thing. i know there's always going to be pros and cons for anything. i for one would find it really helpful to have a complete edition of the book. i've studied egyptian archeology intellectually for years. seeing AE from the viewpoint of a practicing archeologist would give wonderful insights not available elsewhere to this deck. i've been searching the net and bookstores for information to fill the gaps of my knowledge of ancient egypt to help me better understand your deck and my neferteri deck. if nothing else, additional information at your website or recommended reading would be nice. thanks again for your interest in us!

MystiqueMoonlight	13 Jun 2002
Just to let you know I have emailed the interview to Clive Barrett today and it will be posted shortly :)

catlin	13 Jun 2002
Ok, I was one who was not so pleased with the book but it never occured to me that the publisher insited on shortening it. What a pity, I'd love to learn more about the deeper meaning of the cards, especially there is a lot of crap available about Egyptian life.

Jewel	13 Jun 2002
Thank you so much for joining our discussion. As for honest feedback, I do not believe you will have to worry about us curtailing our comments, answers and opinions around here, and we are glad to be able to provide you with direct feedback. We all want to see wonderful new Tarot decks (as well as reprints from old favorites), and would love to contribute to them being meaningful. Thank you for answering my question about the costumes. I figured as much as I have heard that the AET is the most accurate deck in terms of period costuming, weapons, etc., but it is always nice to hear it from the source. I also would love to see a second book on the AET that goes more in depth ... shame the publisher didn't agree the first time to publish it all. I think there is a difference between too much info to spoil a deck, and getting necessary knowledge to understand the symbols in the cards, and the other background that helps you really sink your teeth into to it as most of us are not archeologists, and many of us have limited knowledge of Egyptology. Personally I am a fan of "workbooks" where one can apply the knowledge while gaining it ... just another idea ... Please continue to contribute to our forum, now that you are a member here this is your forum too! :) ... if you want any specific type of feedback from us, just ask us. Thanks again.

purplelady	13 Jun 2002
I agree, it's a shame the publisher didn't want the more complete book of ancient egypt. I am not particularly knowledgable about ancient egypt , and would have enjoyed reading a more comprehensive book about it from an archaeologist, along with the deck to use and look at. Since I collect tarot decks , sometimes the companion books have led me to study and learn about subjects I would not have otherwise read about. (For instance ancient alchemy, all the myths and stories surrounding the king arthur legends, american indian culture etc).

Jewel	14 Jun 2002
Same here Purplelady.

Scorpion	15 Jun 2002
I'VE GOT IT! I'VE GOT IT! I'VE GOT IT!!! And there's only one word to describe it - WOW! OK - I'll stop dribbling (soon - I promise!) but it's just exquisite. Clive - if you're still checking in on this - I would like to add my voice to the others requesting the full detailed book. I have always been an avid fan of Egyptian art and want to know all about the imagery you've chosen. I just feel there's so much available in this deck and I want to know every last tiny detail (although I apprecitate that that isn't possible). I would just like to add that very few decks I acquire rate this sort of praise (and I have quite a few) - I also have the Nefertari, but am not particularly excited about it. Are we allowed to ask questions? If so, I just wanted to ask if I'm missing something. In most Majors I can find the correlation between the Hebrew letter and the artwork, but certain ones have stumped me - in particular, I can't find the ox in the Fool. Many thanks!

Marion	16 Jun 2002
I saw this in my favourite occult bookstore and bought it immediately. The lady there thinks I am really 'special' because everytime I buy one of their new decks, it proves to be a best-seller. Little does she know I get all of my 'inside' information on good decks right here. I like this deck a lot, it acted 'friendly' to me right away. In fact my very first reading, after I had shuffled for a while I asked, "Well, are you ready?" and turned over the Hierophant card, which looks very wise. Good reading too. I like the general colour tones of the cards, and am very pleased to hear that the costumes and setting are historical. Clive, I really enjoyed your post and look forward to reading the interview.

Clive Barrett	16 Jun 2002
I have received a number of emails, about the ox and the Fool card, and several suggestions have been made to me. One correspondent found the head of an ox in the shadows of the egg. Another saw the cosmic egg as the head of the ox and the arms of the spiral - the horns. A third view is that as aleph also means plough then this may be seen at the tip of the fools staff. I would be happy to accept any of these suggestions, the actual ox should be on the upper gold panel hanging from his belt. While clearly visible on the original painting it was, unfortunately, lost when the image was reduced in size. This is not a mistake I’d like to make again. Best wishes, Clive

Maan	23 Jun 2002
Hi Clive Thank you for your response, it really special to have an author on the forum BTW the deck i really learned tarot with was the Norse tarot! So thank you for opening my eyes to tarot :) Love and light Maan

Scorpion	24 Jun 2002
Yes, thanks for that Clive - found it now! It just helps make it feel "complete".

Logiatrix	08 Dec 2003
I just recently acquired this deck... Does anybody here still use it? :)

Emily	08 Dec 2003
Hi Tauni, I've not seen this thread before - I can't remember when I bought my Ancient Egyptian but the bare breast's issue on the women has always bothered me - but not so much after reading through this thread. Also I didn't think of the Thoth influences in it - I just thought it was a straight Rider Waite clone. Its a deck I don't use much but I feel like getting it out and going through it again, its been a long time since its been out of the box. I remember I wanted it because I wanted an Egyptian themed deck with illustrated minors and this fitted the bill. It's still the only Egyptian deck in my collection. :)

Scorpion	08 Dec 2003
Yup - I'm doing a reading with it right now: apparently hitting the nail on the head.....

Logiatrix	09 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Scorpion Yup - I'm doing a reading with it right now: apparently hitting the nail on the head..... That's exactly the same experience I've been having with this deck! It is amazingly accurate and clear; I've had spot-on readings from right out of the box--not something I'm typically able to do! I'm not usually drawn to things Egyptian, so this connection has me somewhat suprised. A while back, I did make a brief study of Egyptian-themed decks, deciding that I needed to know a bit about this area of symbolism; I examined a few of the hyroglyphic-styled decks, but did not look closely at this one. I picked this set up on a whim, expecting only to examine the cards, read the book (I'd heard that it is very good), and eventually trade it. I found myself more attracted to the cards than I expected to be, and soon ventured forth into readings... I'm now thinking that this will make a very good general reading deck; I will be pleased to share it with my querents. Strange how I was sure that this deck was "not my thing"; but as it is now, I don't forsee parting with the AE anytime soon! ;)

Logiatrix	09 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Emily ...I've not seen this thread before - I can't remember when I bought my Ancient Egyptian but the bare breast's issue on the women has always bothered me - but not so much after reading through this thread... Emily, I encourage you to take another look at your AE Tarot. ;) The nudity in it is, IMO, tastefully presented, with the purpose of reflecting the era and culture (rather than superfluously and exploitively riddling the cards with body parts :rolleyes: ). To be honest, I was initially concerned about this in regards to reading for others, but I am finding that people are seeing the nudity in context of the Ancient Egyptian theme and have no problem with it--so far! I will still be mindful of those who might be embarassed by bare breasts. :)

Emily	09 Dec 2003
Hi Tauni, I'm sitting here with the AE out in front of me looking through them, my little boy has just come in and started to look at them - the Strength card is on top. He's just looked at it and said that there is a naked lion, he's just gone on his merry way laughing lol. I must admit this deck is starting to grow on me, I don't think I've been fair with it - I've not noticed before just how pretty and detailed it is. :)

Lee	09 Dec 2003
I think the art on this deck is incredible. The bare breasts did put me off a little. Emily, I think I need to learn to look at it the way your little boy does. :) -- Lee

MeeWah	09 Dec 2003
Tauni: I stumbled across the AET at a local headshop many years ago, & was immediately drawn to it. Its theme alone attracted me, but its magnificent artwork, symbolism & consistency throughout the deck's cards are what captured my interest. It remains the only ancient Egyptian themed deck which resonates. AET is the perfect deck to express the personal fascination with ancient Egypt & older civilizations. The nudity is natural given the cultural basis. Although I was not at all familiar with its qabalistic influences, the book that accompanies it is excellent. It has been inspirational in leading me to look into the Qabala & the Thoth deck. It also is one of my premier reading decks.

Logiatrix	09 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by MeeWah ...Its theme alone attracted me, but its magnificent artwork, symbolism & consistency throughout the deck's cards are what captured my interest... Hi, MeeWah! Yes, it must be the highly detailed artwork that delivers so intuitively for me, too. I hope more people give this deck another look, if they haven't already; I consider myself lucky to have done so. My ease in reading with it still pleasantly astounds me. :)

The ancient egyptian deck thread was originally posted on 22 May 2002 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.