Tea and Crumpets with Crowley

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 07 May 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Thirteen	07 May 2002
In the "Having trouble with Thoth" thread, some folk mentioned their problems with Crowley. In some cases, folk don't like the Thoth deck and that's fine. The problem comes with people who really like the Thoth deck, then read up on Crowley and his doings and find that they can no longer use the deck. I thought we might discuss this if only because it seems a sad thing to give up a favorite deck because the creator is a not-so-nice person. But then, therein lies the problem, doesn't it? For the most part, creators of decks are annoyomous. Any one of my decks might have been created by someone who ran out on spouse and kids, was bigoted or just a jerk. But I don't know these people--all I see only their images, their interpetations of the cards. And the only reason I'd care about who they were is because I care about those images. So, let's start with this basic truth: We're interested in creators because we love what they create. But creators, all creators are human. We may want them to be heroes, saints, superhuman, because whatever truth they found and gave to the world was so moving, so amazing. We think they should be equally amazing. But they're not. In fact, a lot of them are egotistical jerks who think only of themselves and their passion (writing, painting, music--or, in Crowley's case, magic/religion). Truth is though, it's a good thing they're so flawed. Else we'd all feel that only saints could ever be writers, painters, builders, scientists. But Einstein had his marital problems, Mozart was obnoxious and childish, Picasso treated women dreadfully, Thomas Jefferson owned slaves, Billy Holiday was a drug addict. On and on. Margaret Atwood recently said the following (not an exact quote), "Meeting an author because you like their work is like meeting a duck because you like paté." Which is to say, when you're reading a book, or viewing a painting or hearing music you aren't meeting the person, the human being who cheats on their spouse, is distant from their children, or has frightening political convictions. What you're meeting is the CREATION. At this point I'd like to refer you all to three movies: Woody Allen's BULLETS OVER BROADWAY, AMADEUS and POLLACK. All deal with the problem of the "man" vs "creator"--the desire for the creator to be the best kind of man, and what if he's not? And they discuss loving the CREATION while disliking the "creator." Here's the final truth: The creation outlives the man, and becomes far more than he ever was. Because the viewer/reader bring their own insights to the creation. And they transform it, add to it, and make it something else entirely. It doesn't matter what was intended, or what a writer/painter/musician tells you they were trying to say--or never meant to say. What is seen is there, on an individual level. Put it another way: Once it's out in the world, it is the creation that you're meeting. Not the creator. Not the man. You aren't meeting Shakespeare when you read HAMLET. You're meeting HAMLET. To conclude: I'm not saying Crowley was a nice person, or one you'd like. I'm not saying that he didn't do awful things. But the only question you need to answer is this: Could you discuss tarot cards with him over tea? Because it's only his deck, his creation, that you have to like. Not him, personally. He's not alive any more, you're not going to have to marry or live with him or even judge him in court. He did what he did, and there's no changing that. But he also created what he created--it's out there, it has a life of its own. And when you use that deck, you create something that is not his, but yours. I'll get down off the soapbox now ;)

Phoenix	07 May 2002
And lets not forget that it was Lady Frieda Harris who actually did the drawings and paintings for the cards.

zorya	07 May 2002
*applaud* *applaud* *applaud* well said thirteen!

owen glendower	07 May 2002
Yeah! that's the stuff!

All Is One	07 May 2002
Thirteen- your well-written and thoughtful statement is beyond argument or even additions. . .I can only agree completely, and share that my relationship with the Thoth as a deck is different from my rel. with the writing and theories of C- which I know little of apart from using Tarot dictionarie (J. Riley's is my favorite) which give 13 or more different writers/ deck designers statements for each card, their number and symbol systems, suites, and etc. So my way is to take some of the things I hear about C and file them as "human interest " stories. I have no interest in reading any of his non-tarot writing, and the book written for the Thoth was not useful, I was so deeply fascinated by the power of the deck as a totally perfect **YES*** work of art. It works on every level, it has multiple and even contradictory themes that are carried out in many ways I can't actually "know" or explain- it is just as you put it: it is very similar to the work of a favorite artist. . . Aubrey Beardsley's dark and even cruel black and white lithographs (late 1800's) are frightening, fascinating, confusing, and almost terrible to look at: So at 13, finding a book of his illus. to the Wilde play 'Salome' I felt as if I'd been struck by lightning. I read the play, only to try and figure out the illustrations- and it didn't help, it sort of diminished the art in a sense. I didn't know for years that Salome was a bible tale- but the drawings have always expressed themselves, as the Thoth deck does for me, as an articulation of the intense beauty in the human condition. I think the intensity of this kind of art stems from it's refusal to resolve the contradictions in being a human being- feeling both the raptures of divine and spiritual presence within our selves, and struggling with the ID, and our nightmare darkest desires and drives- and the repression of either side of our nature leads to a stunted soul; a flatness. Anyway, I have never had any other deck jump out of control, toss cards, dictate new layouts as I'm in mid-spread, and actually thump and tap (it's a perception- not an actual kick in the hand-) as well as gently lead me to drop the plans I had and march over to pick it up and try a reading. I don't want to hear that this is the demonic power of Crowley working on my mind +/or soul through the cards. I have used tarot in other forms for years and years, and it is based, for me, on our nature's need to experience and express our connection to the divine and enormous forces beyond our grasp. It is a primal way of connecting the daily experience of eating, working out, etc, with the soul's need for more. . . which is where my sense of art comes from, and why I write poetry, sculpt or doodle. . .the art is the result of my need to express the things I cannot explain or dismiss- and yes, the poetry ( and other media) artwork aren't expressions of my personality, or even representative of my belief structure, or my morals. . .it comes through me and does not lose too much, hopefully, in my efforts to translate- There is universal art and personal art. . .I strive for a balance and aspire to the first. The Thoth deck and the correspondences that it uses so intricately found , as Phoenix said, an incredibly powerful expression in Lady Frieda Harris's work. This deck is hard to work with for the beginner, I would think- but every deck is a cosmos in it's own right- this deck is my most mystical and important deck, and the Magickal Tarot by Anthony Clark (C. based and very cerebral. . .) is a completely different experience. (Subject for new thread is buried in there- ) Ohhh not again!!! I tried to cut myself off- better force it to a close- thanks for giving me a chance to express myself on one of my most mysterious decks, As per contradictions- the basic will do: *Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law *Love is the Law: Love under Will Hopefully, these two can be resolved by the aspiration of seeing the two dictums as "all is one" ~*~ }) ~ :SL ~ })

Thirteen	07 May 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Phoenix And lets not forget that it was Lady Frieda Harris who actually did the drawings and paintings for the cards. Thanks for adding that! Mea Culpa. I honestly, honestly, honestly meant to put her in, but had to post and run before I could re-edit. I'm thoroughly ashamed as I feel she should NEVER be left out when discussing Thoth. It does bother me that when folk burn or toss out the Thoth deck they THINK they're just tossing out Crowley--but in reality, they're tossing out Lady Frieda as well. And she really doesn't deserve that. She's a wonderful artist. Which is another thing to consider. How much of Crowley is in the deck if Lady Frieda weilded the paintbrush? And if you found out she was a saintly person, as wonderful a woman as Crowley was "bad," would that change your feelings about the deck? The deck should be seen on its own merits, not on the merits of its creators. If you do that, you might as well toss Picasso on the fire because of how he treated his mistresses, toss the Declaration of Independence on the fire because it's authors owned slaves, wouldn't give women the vote, and stole all their land from the natives. Either the Thoth deck transends its creators, or it doesn't. If it does, then what those creators were or did doesn't matter. If it doesn't then it shouldn't need burning because you wouldn't have gotten it in the first place. It would not have spoken to you at all. Ooops. Sorry. Getting down off the soapbox again--and taking my humble opinion along ;)

Zhritza	08 May 2002
Does this mean I can feel okay about not learning a damn thing about Crowley's life and work? Because this is really an exemplary deck obviously, one of the greatest, and I don't want that ruined for me.

truthsayer	09 May 2002
the points here are well taken and valid. however, please don't overlook that no matter how rational you arguments are, it's up to the individual thoth owner to decide whether or not a connection can be made w/ the deck. no valid point can change a factor that is often based on emotion not reason. i connect w/ my decks on an emotional/intuitive level not logical/rational. only i can change my inner block w/ thoth. i do appreciate your observations and will keep them in mind. you are right about how ppl like carl jung really did get a bad rap from colleagues who didn't agree w/ his theories. jung's work is brilliant and should be held as credibly as other psychiatric/psychological pioneers. so i can accept that crowley got a bad rap from ppl from the golden dawn b/c i've never heard of ae waite ever getting the criticism crowley does. but it's still up to me to reconnect to the thoth and no rational point can make that connection for me. it is something that i am working on b/c i don't believe in giving up on decks. i believe in looking inside and assessing what's going on inside me to trigger this reaction. this may not have come out clearly in past posts from me but i don't believe ppl should destroy the thoth b/c they feel uncomfortable w/ it. it is a more brilliant deck than the rws. if you can't get along w/ thoth and can't come to an acceptable compromise, it's better to trade it and give it another chance. by itself, the deck isn't evil. it's printed cardboard far removed from crowley. it's frieda harris' art work and she put a lot into it that had nothing to do w/ crowley. don't read the book of thoth if crowley worries you. hajo banzhof has done some wonderful books on the thoth deck. try those! i've been reading banzhof's work to help me get back into using thoth. i did use it for 15 years w/o a problem or hint of evil mischief. it's what YOU put into that deck that matters most! wherever crowley's spirit is, i'm sure he's got better things to do than haunt every thoth deck in publication. as far as having tea and crumpets w/ crowley, i'd only consider going if i wasn't going to be alone w/ him. then i'd make my mind up based on what my intuition told me about him. what more could you ask for?

Thirteen	09 May 2002
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer as far as having tea and crumpets w/ crowley, i'd only consider going if i wasn't going to be alone w/ him. then i'd make my mind up based on what my intuition told me about him. what more could you ask for? I'm not asking for anything more. If the Thoth deck has been emotionally spoiled for you by reading what other folk and/or Crowley himself said that he did, then there's nothing to be done about it. Certain things push people's buttons, and there's no saying when or if anyone can get past that or even if they should try to. I started up this thread for two reasons. First, because in the Thoth thread some folk mentioned destroying the Crowley deck because they felt it was "evil" thanks to what Crowley did. I think this does a diservice to Lady Freida, especially, and to the deck as well. It makes beautiful artwork and fascinating imagry pay for the sometimes alleged or sometimes real misdeeds of it's creator--and yet these same people would never think of making other works of art, writing or philosophy pay the same price for the equally disquieting and often much worse misdeeds of their creators. On the other hand, I do understand how magic works, and if burning the deck actually made someone feel that they'd exorsized whatever personal demons Crowley's biography called up, more power to them. They paid for the deck and can do what they like with it. The second, more important reason I started this thread was because some folk, you among them, have asked, "How can I be comfortable with the Thoth deck again?" Implying that you wanted some way to like it again. Now if that isn't true, if you really don't like it, or don't want to like it, or don't want to get past your distaste of Crowley, then that's fine. Sell the deck, get rid of it, forget about it. It can't do its job for you. But if you honestly *want* to like the deck, if you want to rid yourself of the association between bad Crowley and pretty Thoth Deck, then perhaps a discussion about the separation of creation from creator will help. Or not. I figured it was worth a try.

MeeWah	09 May 2002
Thirteen: Your "soap box" on Crowley & the creation of the Thoth deck with Lady Frieda's amazing artwork is well-conceived & a stirring argument. Bravo!! The most important point is that the creation or work needs to be viewed/judged on its own merits; what it represents & offers. The creator's personal life should not be equated with any achievement; or, if at all, that such beauty & order can result from apparent personal chaos. None of the geniuses--from the artists to the statemen in human history have been perfect. The human condition is far from perfection & for anyone to be able to make a lasting contribution to mankind, that in itself is a testament to the human spirit & beyond. In my younger years, I went through a period of reading biographies of those artists, writers & statesmen, including the wives behind the past presidents whose accomplishments I admired. I was stunned to learn that their personal lives were not merely complex as our lives are, but even far more convoluted than "ordinary". Intellectual or artistic ability does not protect one from human foibles. Years ago, I had the disquieting experience of being bluntly discouraged from the Thoth deck by a Tarot instructor whom I knew favored the deck personally. She did not explain her recommendation. At that time, the Smith-Waite deck was the only one I owned & I was looking for another deck to broaden my Tarot view. I went on to acquire other decks, including Thoth, without bothering to investigate it or its creators. I used the Smith-Waite deck successfully without reading any book or knowing about its creators. I cannot say I understand the Thoth as well, but that is not denigrating to the deck as it is a fascinating deck for its artwork & symbolism.

jema	09 May 2002
well, how would you do if you really really wanted a thoth deck but it always slipped through your fingers. this is my thoth story: i love the artwork, i don't mind the man behind it, he is good and well dead by now. i have tried to trade for the thoth at least three times. all trades failed. (not any of the times on this board though - never had a failed trade here) i tried to buy it three times. the first time - the story closed down the second time it was out of print, sent to the printers, came out with a wrong print and after several months of hazzle i just demanded my money back. the thrid time was in january - i still have not a single word on the deck. it's like my order never went though, they had it in stock, i recieved other decks from them (like the lovely kazanlar deck) but the Thoth is nowhere to be seen. it is quite obvious that i am not supposed to trade for it or buy it. perhaps one day i will just find one:-) i have high hopes still i will get that deck!!!

Thirteen	11 May 2002
Jema, wow. Think you're right. You're either suppose to inherit that deck or be given it as a gift. Can't wait to find out how you finally get your hands on it. I'm sure that will be a story in itself.

Phoenix	11 May 2002
Wow. What a story Jema. I hope that one day you are able to find a Thoth deck on your own. I was fortunate enough to get one given to me by someone here on Aeclectic(lilmystic) whom I have becoome great friends with. This is one of my favorite decks. I just love to shuffle it, even if I have no qiestion for it. I just like to keep my hands on it.

All Is One	27 May 2002
Jema ~*~ You can get a really reasonable Thoth (I am hooked on the biggest version-but it it all available ) on Amazon in the U.S. I will order it and send it to you if you need me to, because I have heard about the discrepancies betwn the Amzon US and Amzon UK before on this site. . . Cool part is- of all the decks the Thoth is best card stock, etc..... and OLD enough to be very reasonable! my e-mail is love is the Law (let it be...)

jema	27 May 2002
update on the Thoth situation: The generous Kaz kindly offered to send me one as a gift and i have high hopes it will arrive at my house sometime this week. i will of course let you all know the minute it gets here:) it will after all be the end of a three year old quest for that elusive and wicked(?) deck of cards...

All Is One	27 May 2002
Jema: Congratulations- to be gifted w/ the Thoth is to be three times blessed!!! I hope you fall in love w/your Thoth as I did w/mine Hope you will keep us posted on it~~~

jema	29 May 2002
oh today i got a Thoth!!! it is a mini deck gifted to me from the kindest Kaz. it's in dutch:) lovely language and i actually understand it more then i thought. ok, so there are probably several Thoth threads on this forum but i picked this one so i stick to it. here are my first impression of the Thoth deck: ohh aahhh. it took me at least half an hour to just glance at the cards cause i had to go back and oogle some of them many many times. (i can hardly tear my eyes of the hermit and the star and some of the pips. oh my! and the courts are just great! they actually make sense... the queen of wands, knight of pentacles, princess of wands. i could go on. i also love that i somehow already "know" these cards. i worked with them before - or at least their "followers" in this deck i see other decks. i see the tarot of the Spirit in many of the pips, i see cosmic tribe and i see Gill. i borrowed the book of thoth from the library and will most likely buy it myself later. and now that i got a Thoth - perhaps the "curse" is gone and if it is - i want a BIG deck:) oh and we don't have a Thoth study group?? **** jema utterly in love with Thoth

All Is One	29 May 2002
Jema: Your enthusiastic and mind-altering experience w/finally getting the Thoth reminded me of the feelings I had when I first brought home a small ( and later) a large version of Thoth... You obviously needed this deck~ how cool of Kaz to gift you with such

Kaz	29 May 2002
:) happy to see another thoth lover :) kaz

truthsayer	29 May 2002
the generosity and kindness of ppl in this forum never ceases to impress me. another beautiful story of a random act of tarot. ;) glad you finally got your deck, jema. i got my small thoth deck yesterday. i do like it and the size is much easier to shuffle. i like having copies of the 3 magicians. imo, the lavender border color is still no better or worse than the green color on my large thoth. i think the biggest value of another thoth is that this deck is free of the negative feelings towards crowley i connotate to the large thoth. i can start fresh w/ this one.

Phoenix	03 Jun 2002
Glad you like it Truth!!!

Zhritza	04 Jun 2002
Today I saw a used copy of the larger U. S. Games version, the green-algae one. It doesn't even come with Crowley's interpretations of the cards... both the smaller USG one in the lavender box and the largish AGMuller at least have the Crowley LWB, if I remember right. What's more, this one says on the box, "Designed by Aleister Crowley; Printed by Lady Frieda Harris." Not!!

The Tea and Crumpets with Crowley thread was originally posted on 07 May 2002 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.