Thoth Court Cards

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 05 May 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Zhritza	05 May 2002
I've had the Thoth for a long time but have never used it much. I must have known at some point in the distant past that it had Knights, Queens, Princes and Princesses (no kings), but I have only just been reminded of this again. My understanding is that this comes from the Golden Dawn idea of the Knight being a quester type who courts the Queen and becomes her consort, in contrast to the more common (these days anyway) tarot tradition of the King at the top of the court cards hierarchy. I find this alternative hierarchy really enthralling. So, those of you who use the Thoth regularly -- how does this different court setup affect your relationship with the Thoth as compared to other decks? Does it directly affect the entire deck for you, or is it merely a pain in the butt/bum, or what?

Liliana	05 May 2002
I dont use Thoth, but I just got Rohrig which was definately based on Thoth and uses this system. Im not exactly sure what to think about it. Im presuming these are unmarried queens, I hoping these queens arent out having affairs with the knights, but of course that is what happened in Arthurian legend. But I believe in general I like it, it adds more youth to the deck having princes and princesses, and also makes the Queen sound more powerful and in control. I havent done readings with the Rohrig yet so I cant say anything aout that aspect. :THP

MystiqueMoonlight	06 May 2002
I like to understand (perhaps a little less from a feminist point of view) the Thoth Court Cards as being more active. The Knights do seem to indicate "movement" over the RW syndrome of a stagnant King who just sits at the top on his throne. I don't necessarily see the Queen as being more powerful (or any less so for that matter) than the Knight. I mean if you were to equate the King back to Arthurian times he was a rather stale type of character who basically governed over his people whilst waiting to be toppled by his successor (the Knight). The court cards in the Thoth Deck for me do tend to involve some "action" for each of it's representatives and I think the Knight is a far more affirmative card than the RW King. Blessed be

AmounrA	06 May 2002
I have used the crowley thoth deck for many years. The court cards represent the formula YHVH I think Crowley saw this formula as highly dynamic, as mystic moonlight says, knights do indicate 'movement', rather than the rather 'emperor' like kings. The Thoth deck is totally cabbalistic, and crowley postioned the court cards thus- Knights in .......[c]Hockmah..........yod Queens in ........Binah...................he Princes in .........tipharet[h]..........vau Princesses in ....malkuth...............he To quote Crowley[from book of thoth].......... Knights........."sublime, original, active part of the energy of the element;for this reason they are represented on horseback and clad in complete armour.Their action is swift and violent,but transient" QUEENS....."they are the complements of the knights. They recieve,ferment, and transmit the original energy of there knight.Quick to recieve that energy, they are also fitted to endure for the period of their function; but they are not the final product.They represent the second stage in the process of creation whose fourth and last state is material realization,They arew seated upon thrones. This emphasizes the fact that they are appointed to exercise definative functions" Princes....."The prince is the son of the queen, by the knight who has won her; he is therefore represented as in a chariot,going forth to carry out the combined energy of his parents.He is the active issue of there union, and its manifestation. He is the intellectual image of their union.His action is consequently more enduring than that of his forebears.In one respect ,indeed, he aquires a relative permanence, because he is thr published record what has been done in secret." Princesses...."They represent the ultimate issue of the original energy in its completion, its crystallization,its materialization. They also represent the counter-balancing, the re-absorption of the energy.They represent the silence into which all things return.They are thus at the same time permanent and non-existant.......the princesses have no zodiacal attribution. Yet evidently they represent four types of human being......"

Kaz	07 May 2002
hey amounra, great to see you back :) kaz

AmounrA	07 May 2002
Thanks kaz :-)......I've been extremely buzy lately :-(

Zhritza	07 May 2002
I appreciate your reply a lot, amounra :) :) Thanks to Liliana and MysMoon too. I also think I really prefer the idea of the Knight replacing the King, because in most decks the Queen and Page/Princess are already sort of in a state of being, and the Knight/Prince is in a state of doing. So this seems to add balance to the court cards. In Clive Barrett's Norse Tarot, the Princesses replace the traditional RWS Knights and the Princes replace the Pages, which also is an adjustment that seems to put something to rights, because the deck therefore has active and receptive male and female figures for each suit. One of these days I'm gonna break down and start reading some Golden Dawn books or something...

The Thoth Court Cards thread was originally posted on 05 May 2002 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.