Tough Times with the Thoth...

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 07 May 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Andryh	07 May 2002
Recently I purchased the Thoth deck...This would be no big deal, except this deck and I have a history. A few years back, I had the Thoth. I really loved it. I found the art beautiful and the readings were so good. I had some really profound experiences with the deck. I became interested in the life of the creator, so I started reading about the deck's history and Aleister Crowley's life. I was really appaled. His life seemed so sad and destructive, and he often spoke unkindly about my faith (Christianity). After that, I sort of had bad vibes from the deck. It gradually got worse, and I ended up pitching this deck in the trash. I felt like I couldn't sleep with it in my house one more night. Although part of me missed it, I was glad to have it gone too. But, as I mentioned above, I purchased this deck again. Just a day browsing at the book store, and WHAM! I saw this deck, and had an immediate "I HAVE to have this deck TODAY" reaction. Before I knew it, I was out in my car ripping off the celophane and flipping through these cards. It was like seeing a long lost friend. I almost felt like crying. Happy at last I thought...I have finally gotten over my ambivilent, irrational feelings toward this deck. My joy was short lived. It all started a few days later with the Lust card. I started meditating on this card...studying its symbolism, and then it hit me. The lion has seven heads, and above it are ten horns, and the woman on his back is drunk. I realized this card is based on biblical scripture in the book of Revelation (the whore of Babylon). I know all of the Pagan folk out there probably think its silly, but as a Christian this was an unsettling realization reagarding this card. I am a very liberal Christian, but the glorification in this card of something that my faith deems evil, is more than a bit unsettling to me. I really love this deck, but frankly, this card frightens me. I was hoping to hear from others who have perhaps struggled with this deck, or perhaps people more experienced with the Thoth who can shed some light on the motivation behind Crowley's sometimes anti-Christian themes. I'd love to hear from you.

AmounrA	07 May 2002
Hello, To understand crowleys attitude towards christians, you have to look at his childhood..........his parents were plymoth brethren, fanatically anal in attidude. Crowley rebeled...big time. You must also understand that there are a lot of myths about crowley..so be careful what you read, also Crowley himself had a bizzare sense of humour, and often people take what he says literally......without seeing his joke.[he also played up to his enemies...making it worse] I have to be honest and say I am no fan of christianity.....but its a personal choice, Crowley may seem to some to be morally corupt, but he was not really so bad.........the person he hurt most was perhaps himself. :-)

Andryh	07 May 2002
Thanks AmounrA- Thanks for the input. I have read that Crowley was emotionally abused by his religious fanatic mother. It is heartbreaking to me that my faith has been twisted into such a monstrosity that it destroys lives. I can't say I blame you for not being a fan of Christianity. We Christians have failed miserably as a whole on giving Jesus' love to the world. Sometimes I get so upset with what we call Christianity, that I don't even want to be associated with it. However, I love Jesus, and therefore will continue to reluctantly call myself Christian. Thanks again for your insights.

Marie	07 May 2002
For me it sometimes helps to think that I can love the art without loving the artist. It's the same for music or literature or fine art or tarot decks. Sometimes brilliant creations come from people who have had extreme lives and are themselves extreme, eccentric or even mentally ill. The same mechanism that allows a person to be able to view the world in such a novel new way that the rest of us would never imagine is the same mechanism that makes the person not mesh so well with society and have a distasteful personality. I'm sure you can think of many artists, actors, musicians, writers who have done incredibly sensitive soulful work but they themselves seem not to resemble it, they are like nails on a chalkboard. It's the way of art! Also keep in mind that Lady Frieda Harris had no small part in it. Whatever the directions or limitations placed on her the art moved through HER. But believe me, you are not alone in your struggles with this deck. Marie

Thirteen	07 May 2002
There is a lot of struggle with this deck. That's the "beauty" of it, if you will, and perhaps the reason you're drawn to it. You could easily get Connolly, a deck that will issue you no challenges on your faith. In fact, Connolly doesn't even have a Death or Devil card. It's a lovely, stained glass deck, very quiet and church-like. And very faith affirming. But, IMHO, faith worth having is one that can not only face challenges, but hold strong even while being able to see the another's point of view. I think you're capable of doing that. You just have to be willing to go beneath the surface mischief of the deck. Trust me, Crowley is deliberately trying to shock you. Don't let him get away with it. Here's a couple of other points: I think every collector of tarot decks on this forum will tell you that there isn't one deck where we LOVE every card. We all find decks we adore--but with one card that we just don't like, or that even annoys us. So long as it's not our favorite card, it really doesn't matter that much. Few decks, under scrutiny, are going to be the "perfect" deck with ever card exactly as we'd want it. Second, getting to that Lust card--Here's what Robert Wang (the Qabalistic Tarot) has to say about it: "Although the image is somewhat shocking in this context, Crowley has used the Whore of Babylon to represent the epitome of virginity....The principle is...that of the greatest evil concealing the greatest good...The woman is...virgo intacto and it is only as such that she can, with complete safety, deal with the Lion." Now, what does the "greatest evil concealing the greatest good" mean? It returns to that essential Christian question--if God made all, then didn't he make evil, too? He made the garden and everything in it, then isn't the snake in the garden his doing as well? So perhaps the snake has a purpose other than just being "evil"? After all, if the evil snake hadn't tempted Adam and Eve to fall, there would have been no Christ to save the world--no Greatest Good. So Greatest Evil (the serpent/the Fall) conceals the Greatest Good (the coming of Christ/Salvation). Bill Butler (Dictionary of the Tarot) further points out that Crowley changed this card's name from Strength to Lust in order to point out that there is "rapture" in vigour, "joy in strength exercised." What Crowley is pointing out is that when you find that inner strength, that great power inside yourself, if can be "rapturous." Like Lust. In this, a person of great power and strength, or even great faith, could feel the same energy, the same "rapturous lust" as the Whore of Bablyon riding and commanding that great beast. And so Crowley, mischeviously I'm sure, points out that what the "virgin" feels doing Great Good (excersizing her strength, control, faith, power over the beast) might not be so different as what the "whore" feels doing Great Evil. A rush, an energy, a high. It's up to you, the reader, of course, whether to interpet the card, in any given reading, is a warning (don't do good just to get that rapturous feeling), or just a reminder (good and evil are intertwined--if there is no evil, how can you do good?). I don't know if this makes you feel any better about the card or the deck. But understand, as AmourA pointed out, that Crowley was a rebel--and a mischeviously one at that. Think of him as the little old man who likes to open the door at Halloween wearing a scary mask and go "BOO!" to the trick-or-treaters. The thing you have to remember with Crowley is, it's only the kid who *doesn't* run away, who stands firm on his doorstep and challenges him and his interpetations of things who gets invited into his neat old house to enjoy tea and sweets and very interesting, if challenging conversations ;)

AmounrA	07 May 2002
I also have respect for Jesus, he was[from what i gather] a genuinely magick person. The church however always confuses me................how did it go so wrong? I think it was hi-jacked early and used for corrupt means by corrupt weak men. I like your point about Freda Harris, Marie, she deserves a special medal for putting up with the demands of Crowley.....demands that I think were valid, as the Thoth deck is un-rivaled [for me] in sheer brilliance. I think Crowley was a genius, and geniuses often leave a lot of sore heads in there wake.......... thirteen..lol :-)

owen glendower	07 May 2002
To A. I really would not worry overmuch about Mr. Crowley,he was in his own words "just another fat englishman". He did have profound insights , but they are often lost because of his penchant for self promotion. I would offer you the advice to forget Mr. C. and to concentrate on the inherent beauty and mysticism of the deck.I use the Thoth quite a lot, and find it to be very adaptable to a variety of needs. The best tool I have found to put the Thoth in a positive light is a book by Gerd Ziegler "Mirror Of The Soul " a handbook for the Aleister Crowley Tarot. While this is not a christian interpretation of the deck it has no sinister connotations that would hinder one from using the Thoth deck. The cards are just a tool . Your intentions are really all that matter. Hope this is of some help.

truthsayer	07 May 2002
andryh, i don't know if you read the thread i posted about how a card in the world spirit deck really distressed me. i was all ready to trade or return the deck but the ppl here really helped me see others sides of this deck and that card. it was then i realized that not all decks that are sent us are sent to be cherished and read. some of them ask of to look deep into the heart of our shadow and explore why i am having such a negative reaction to this deck. i've never had this kind of reaction w/ a deck before. so it's b/t me and WS like your prob is b/t you and thoth. i've decided that WS has asked me to use it as a guide to face things from my past that frighten me. few have the reaction i have to that card so it's my challenge to face whatever this card is asking me to accept. ask yourself, what is it that the lust card is asking you to face? perhaps a book like christine jette's "shadow tarot" could help you work thru this. that's what i'm planning to do. maybe we could help each other face these inner demons represented by cards. i doubt crowley is haunting his deck making you feel this way. lady frieda was a good person i think and had to be a saint to tolerate crowley. there is a lot of mathematics/geometry behind the thoth deck in addition to any insights crowley might have given. i think the story you came up w/ about the lust card is only a superficial part of what is going on w/ this deck. http://hungry.piranho.de/claas/olive._e.html this site is about a woman named olive whicher who met lady frieda and knew something about the creation of the thoth. perhaps this will help you. feel free to pm me. i'd like to help. i read the thoth for 15 years then i found out about it's history w/ aleister crowley and i couldn't use the deck anymore. his life disturbed me and i'm not a christian even tho i do have a deep respect for the true teachings of jesus. i'd like to recover from my discomfort w/ crowley.

Thirteen	07 May 2002
One last thing I'd like to add about interpeting the Lust card.... This might sound a little silly, but have you seen SPIDERMAN yet (the movie)? Thinking about this card rather reminded me of it. Here's why: When Spiderman first gets his powers, he immediately uses them for self-gradificaton. He sees them only as a way to gain fame, money, happiness. He revels in them. It's only after personal tragedy results from this selfish persuit that he realizes that "With great power comes great responsibility." I think Crowley's Lust card explores this problem and might rightly be called not Strength, nor Lust but "POWER." When you realize your own true strength, and see, for the first time, what you can do with it, it is exhilierating. And it's tempting to use that Power for self-gradification--like our Whore of Bablyon. But true strength is in recognizing and taking on the responsibilities that comes with Power. In self-denial for a greater good. In remaining the "virgin" and using the power for other things, better things, than self-gratification. This card, with it's Whore of Bablyon imagry doesn't just inform the querent they have inner strength and great power, or even that such strength must be found to solve the problem, but that that the hardest part is deciding how to use the power once it is found. When the problem is solved, what then? It warns the querent that it's all too use new found power for self-gratification rather than for the greater good. At last, that's how I see it.

MystiqueMoonlight	07 May 2002
Andryh... You may use an iron to smooth out the wrinkles in your clothes or you may strike someone with it with intent to harm. Who is the evil one.... The iron? The inventor of the iron? The person who holds the iron? If a flame goes out was it because the flame was weak against the wind or because the wind was strong against the flame? Blessed be.....

Kaz	07 May 2002
if you put the lust card on the tree of life its between chesed and gevurah if i am not mistaken. hmm, this story is gonna be longer than i have time to post here. maybe amounra or somebody else posts about this aspect before i get to it, if not, i will tomorrow. lust is a beautiful card if you look at it from that point of view, thirteen already said some about it, but there is more. kaz

Geenius at Wrok	07 May 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen But understand, as AmourA pointed out, that Crowley was a rebel--and a mischeviously one at that. Think of him as the little old man who likes to open the door at Halloween wearing a scary mask and go "BOO!" to the trick-or-treaters. The thing you have to remember with Crowley is, it's only the kid who *doesn't* run away, who stands firm on his doorstep and challenges him and his interpetations of things who gets invited into his neat old house to enjoy tea and sweets and very interesting, if challenging conversations ;) Yeah, well, there's running away, and then there's deciding that this obnoxious old coot isn't worth your time and walking away. I'm suddenly reminded of that Onion story, "Marilyn Manson Going Door-to-Door Trying to Shock People."

AmounrA	07 May 2002
The lust card, or whore of babylon, the scarlet lady is one of my favorite cards. It depicts the universal lust, a lust which has resulted in lifeforms. Unlike the civilized expression of creation, marrage shown in 'the lovers' card, this card is full of energy, movement, combined forces. She rides upon a seven headed beast,[ heads of.angel,saint,poet,adultrus woman,man of valour,satyr and lion serpent]. The scarlet woman collects children for the new aeon, she distroys and recreates the world, she is there to bring the true glory into the hearts of seekers.The grail is ablaze with the energy of the/in the universe, she rides this beast full on. You could see her as the beakon of evolution. Naked ,unashamed she fully explores and experiments with possibility. She was feared in ancient times as a bringer of the apocalpse, and in many ways she is......she tears down the wall, the vails.............she hides not from the pure brillant power, lust of the universe....she is a complete partner to the universal 'father', and with lust and relesh she serves the great work. She holds the reigns and her power/strength comes directly from above, a pure un-infected link. The cards postion on the tree of life, bridging geburah and chessed, is spot on, as to venture into the abyss you need to go through this card, indeed the crossing..[lust , emperess and high priestess]. This card is hungrey, and has found a well that keeps feeding delights..........[just take the apple :-)]

Spasticgirlie	07 May 2002
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I have no idea how i missed this thread before! I have had the same occurances with this deck except my religion is not christianity. It just so happens that I too loved this deck though I did not use it much it was just so beautiful. Then one day not too long ago I mentioned that I had it to some of my friends. They told me straight away about aleister crowly and from that point i got horrible vibes. I didnt want to be around either. There was some pretty scary readings off of it the day that i gave it to my friend to get it away from me. In fact that guy should feel that he is lucky that he didnt believe in tarot readings and stuf.........well I do not have this deck anymore. In fact I burned it.....I know some of you would be appalled by this. But I was comforted by the fact that it was burning. Yeah it turned into wasted money...................but it led me to my faery oracle and I love them! I am sorry if I offend anyone who really loves this deck.......but after the deck there was other weird things and yeah....its just better that it is gone.........

Angel Star	07 May 2002
I am sorry to say that I am saddened that some get such negativity from this beautiful deck. I have never had any problems with this deck at all. Alot of the post I have read seems that whatever anyone has read about Crowley is what has affected the deck in a negative way had you not read anything about the maker nothing probably would have happened. Sorry to say Sgirl I have had some negative experiences with the Fairy Oracle myself but that didn't make me want to burn it nor get rid of it. The tarot or any oracle for that matter is a mixture of the good and bad in our lives and is used to help us grow and learn. There is alot being written about Crowley that is negative and positive he was a rebel in his time. The Toth deck was the last of his work so I have read before he died it wasn't even published until years later. He never got to see the deck finished. Alot is written about Crowley who knows exactly what is true or not since it was like 100 years ago but I hope others will keep thier Toth decks and not let Crowleys mistakes get rid of it. Anyways since he never lived to see this deck their are so many wonderful books written that do not have Crowley's odd sence of humor about the cards. Yes he did write a book about the deck but from I have read he never saw the final making of the deck he died before it was finished. I would get the Tarot Handbook by Angeles Arrien this book will definitely shed some new light on this deck.

Andryh	07 May 2002
Thanks to everyone for their thought-provoking and eloquent input...And bravo. This is the stuff that makes Aeclectic the best Tarot site on the web. These posts have given me much to think about...I do hope they keep coming! I have made a decision regarding this deck. I'm not going to run away from it. Rather, I'm going to try to study it indepth...Starting by sticking my nose in some of the books suggested. Also, I am going to try to accept the fact that I am never going to be "comfortable" with all the cards in this deck. I think I have been trying to find ways to make this deck palatable. But perhaps being comfortable with this deck is not what I truly want or need. Perhaps a little stroll out of my comfort zone is just what the doctor ordered. I know this deck intrigues me like no other. I am going to try to allow myself learn whatever it is that this deck has to teach. BUT, I am going to trust my instincts too, and treat this deck with great respect and a bit of caution. Thanks again to everyone.

MystiqueMoonlight	08 May 2002
This deck will always be provocative, inspiring, intriguing and well maybe a little scary (for those of you who still believe half of what you read about the creator). However I want to just quote something written by Isreal Regardie in the Forward of a book called 777 and Other Qabalistic Writings of Alester Crowley ISBN 0-87728-670-1 "...anyway he was not a dull bluffer like Arthur Edward Waite who pretended to all sorts of linguistic and scholastic skills he in fact never had. Take his book The Secret Doctrine in Israel, which is a lengthy analysis of the Zohar, this book was not written until after a French translation of the Zohar had been made - and of course long before the English one had appeared. Even his Latin translations of many alchemical texts were merely good editing jobs, the translators having been, amongst others, some elderly Anglican priests, preferring to remain if not anonymous then in obscurity, who had got mixed up in not only the Golden Dawn but the occult arts in general. They did all the "donkey work" of translating difficult material, but Waite got all the glory and the swollen head..." We are all human and we are allowed to act like humans. Whether we create a set of Tarot or fly to the Moon we all make bad judgements. Many stories of Alester Crowley were smear campaigns issued by a disgruntled membership of the Golden Dawn when he decided to depart from their ego inflated membership. Did Alester Crowley have a big ego? Possibly. Did AE Waite have just as big an ego? Certainly. Yet the Waite cards and clones seem to be unblemished in both reputation and conotation. It is interesting to note though that the Thoth type decks (aka Rohrig, Haindl etc) remain unblemished and quite popular. What about Lady Frieda Harris the painter of the Thoth deck? If it wasn't for her years of tireless and intuitive artistic ability these cards may never have come to pass. In my opinion Alester Crowley was a genius at his craft, perhaps even a little before his time. Then again so was Mae West, Albert Einstein, Carl Jung, Michael Jackson and so on. They all had some social stigma presented to the naive public from their peers. Blessed be

truthsayer	08 May 2002
bravo, andryh! i think you have a wonderful idea! don't run from thoth or else there'll always be other things in your life you'll avoid when they become uncomfortable. we only learn by facing our fears.

Angel Star	08 May 2002
MysticMoonlight I Loved your post on Crowley,Waite and the Golden Dawn and the Toth deck. Your post was great. :)

Riversea	09 May 2002
I don't know many (try any!) specifics about Crowley, just that ever since I was a child, it seemed just saying the man's name caused people to shudder. With this deeply ingrained in my noggin, I'd decided that I was going to avoid the Thoth and its clones, if only for the fact that I felt I would always be holding Crowley against the deck. And I even consider myself a pagan! One does not let go of years of Christianity so easily... Even reading these threads on the Thoth and Crowley yesterday afternoon, made me re-affirm to myself that, "I don't want a Thoth deck." My husband, who is out-of-town tonight in the big city with lots of bookstores, calls me and tells me he just bought a deck there that he is really enjoying. It is (drum roll, please...) the Thoth! So, it seems that the Thoth and I WILL be seeing each other... I wonder how we'll get on. Though right now, I'm just a novice, trying to get to know the RW (UW, really). And I just got the Victoria Regina deck late yesterday afternoon. After that, I want to get know the Vertigo deck better. It's been waiting seven years for some attention. I doubt that I'll have much time for more than just a look at the Thoth for a good long while. My husband is pretty much a beginner, too. I'm a bit worried about him learning on the Thoth, not for any metaphysical reasons, it just seems more difficult than RW. Any pointers?

AmounrA	09 May 2002
I would advise your husband to buy, 'the book of thoth', its an excellent accompliment to the deck. I am surprized that you consider yourself a pagan and don't like [or get bad vibes?] from thoth, in a funny way, I have the same feelings towards rider-waite....for me its the christian nonsense in them that puts me off:-)...[in particular waites judgement card]. Crowley had an incident in Italy, which led to him being deported from there....the press back home in Britain, went to town...this is where he got the reputation as 'most evil man in the world'.......it was all nonsense, but the press then was christian , and Crowley 'just wasn't playing the game'. Most of there revolution came from Crowleys sexual experimentation. I guess today we would just say he was Bi-sexual.......but back then his was ' a dirty sex fiend' Crowley was openly playing with the occult, even today the occult is still viewed as 'evil'.......the incident in italy involved 'death my mis-adventure of a young man', of course the press practically accused him of mass murder and eating babies!!!..........forget the hype about Crowley, [ most people who have written books about him exzagerate , and sensationalize (sp?) crowley]......a book I would advise is 'the eye in the triangel, by Israel Regarde . [regarde can be a bit of a tight ass, but the book is wonderful] There is also the myth that crowley died a broken man....they wish!, he did die in relative povety in bournemouth, but he was not broken, if any thing he was enjoying the peace, If you read his book 'magick without tears' you will see this, its a series of letters he was writing to corrospondants about all angles of magick........not the work of a broken man. Forget the spin about Thoth and see them for what they are........fantastic tatot cards:-)

Riversea	09 May 2002
Actually, I don't think I've been around a Thoth deck, other than seeing a box of them for sale in bookstores. So, it's never really been a case of getting "bad vibes" from the deck. I just wasn't sure that I could put all the years of people shuddering at the very mention Crowley behind me, and just enjoy the cards. I really don't know anything about what Crowley supposedly did, he's a name tied to response. Does that make sense? It's getting pretty late (or early!), and my mind is beginning to fog up. :) On the other hand, Sybil Leek seemed regard him quite affectionately, if I recall. It's been several years since I read "Diary of a Witch", so maybe I'm way off on this, but it seems as though she was rather surprised that he was regarded as the most evil man in the world. That's not the Crowley she experienced. As far as the Christian images on the RW, for some reason, they don't bother me, though I can easily see how they could. I was a Christian for many more years than I've been a pagan. And I didn't leave Christianity upset, it was more of a drifting away. It no longer met my needs, I guess. At first, I tried to be upset with Christianity, because it seemed like the thing to do. LOL But then I realised I was feigning it. So, I let it go. Not that a Christian fundamentalist can't work me into a good wrath... I think what saves the RW Judgement card for me, is no one seems very fearful or worried. Granted, I still need to sit down and study this card in more depth. I may very well change my opinion on it. And the Christian imagery is familar, so even though I might not believe in the myth of it anymore, I still understand it. Thus, it is pretty easy for me to read and apply. Thanks for reminding me about the distortion of the media. It may help me approach the deck with less mis-givings, though it is really my husband's deck. He might decide he doesn't want me fooling with it! :) And his birthday is coming right up, maybe he'd like "The Book of Thoth" as a gift...

Angel Star	09 May 2002
Hi Amournra I hope I spelled that right I thought I was the only one who thought Isralie Regardie has such an uptight attitude from some of the books I own by him. I guess it was not my imagination after all lol! :)

AmounrA	09 May 2002
Regarde took it all very seriously, I love the introduction to 'eye in the triangle', regarde uses it to rubbish one by one every one whose crossed him, quoting them with great bitterness, you have to laugh, he certainly had a chip on his shoulder, and it shows clearly all the silly infighting going on with the golden dawn......basically bitchiness. Riversea, I know what you mean, I have used the Thoth deck for so long now, I had forgotten just how infamous the deck is....and the types of feelings it brings in people...a lot of.......ooowww voodoo.......vexed, the feeling that if you have the deck in your house, evil will come visiting :-)

Angel Star	09 May 2002
I just do not "get" that people have such a problem with the Toth deck because of Crowley. Thats like thinking of every deck we buy do we know every dirty dead the makers have done in their lives? I think not! Yet I doubt we will be throwing the decks out LOL! Oh Regardie yes I have read some of his Golden Dawn geez he was an uptighty for his time I am glad the Cicero's have redone alot of his books cause they are so much easier to understand. Yes in the Golden Dawn at least when I picked up the 2 books on the Golden Dawn Initiation I sense that bitchiness from the text and always wondered why the books affected me in that way now I know. :)

AmounrA	09 May 2002
I think it is quite sad, the golden dawn really did have a first class system, it really was progressive. Its a great early system to get into, as it gives an excellent framework in which to develop.....a good initiation into the tarot and tree of life. I guess the way of modern magickal seekers is to raid from where ever and build there own reality systems.......and of course... 'universe' meets us halfway ;-) Its like that saying." whatever book you are reading when initiated...the initiators put there!".....I have had many things that I have left on the shelf [sometimes for years], which I have picked up studied/read and in will come a whole wave of synchronicites, connected to it from completely different places/angles......you feel like your being sucked through a door/window.

Angel Star	10 May 2002
Yep my Golden Dawn books have been sitting their for quite sometime cause the teaching were just a little too uptight for me. I like the one the Circero's did better than the one Israel Regardie did man that book has been reprinted so many times. I do need to pick it up again I am sure the synchronisities will start happening as you stated in your post. I just wrapped my Toth deck in a dragon cloth cause the box was falling apart drew a few cards such a beautiful deck. I always get such insightful readings for myself when I use this deck. Take care :)

truthsayer	10 May 2002
i've had my thoth deck and book of thoth since around 1986. the book got put in storage b/c i have so many books. i really thought i had thrown the original box and LWB out many years ago during many moves. today i found both. i think this is a positive sign that i'm going to get back in touch w/ my thoth. for some reason finding those things that give me positive memories of thoth when i first got it is really helpful. i did have a positive relationship w/ thoth for many years. not continuing to trust thoth after all those years is like believing strangers about a trusted friend's dark past and betraying the relationship. so i will work w/ thoth some more. i feel some issues have been put into a better perspective. interestingly, it is the deck itself that is convincing me--not anything anyone here has said in defense of thoth. so if you have questions about the deck, listen to what it has to say to you. the answers will be different than what the rumors are. it's a sign of growth when you can look inside yourself and resolve an relationship issue w/ a deck you've loved.

Riversea	10 May 2002
Well, the Thoth came home yesterday, and I got my first real look at it. The artwork is quite lovely, and I wasn't picking up any bad vibes or anything from it. :) I'm not sure I'll work with it, but I might be feeling that way just because I've got a couple of decks that I want to get to know ahead of it. Also, it will always be my husband's deck more than mine probably. My husband, on the other hand, seems to be taking to it like a duck to water. He keeps pulling cards out to show me, saying " I love this one!" He seems to be reading it just fine, too. He took it to school today (he teaches middle school) and pulled a card before each class to see how best to approach it. He said it did quite well at that! He did loose the box though, maybe that's the box you found Truthsayer! And maybe the deck is telling us it wants a bag... A SILK one! I might have insulted it when I mentioned to my husband that the Ace of Wands reminded me alittle of squirrels hiding in a tree with their tails poking out. But my husband promptly came to its defense with "It's a torch! I love that card!" :) He really likes the deck!

Aerin	11 May 2002
Embarrasingly enough, I have just realised that a lot of my problems with the Thoth deck may be because I have the wrong version. I have thought of it as cold, unfeeling, boring colouring, etc. And guess who has just discovered she has the US Games large cards, which come in sickly green I thought it was meant to look as if someone had poured a whole bottle of discoloured, decayed Fairy Liquid over it. (Shudders.) Which is the best version to get then? I want a non-green one. Aerin

Kaz	11 May 2002
i have a normal colored standard sized thoth deck, but it's in dutch, so those words at the bottom are dutch. that's probably no use for you, as these decks are about the only one (and the waite/smith) that you can get here. the publisher of my deck is AG Muller kaz

Andryh	11 May 2002
Hi everyone- I don't know about everyone else, but I sure am enjoying this thread. I thought it worth mentioning that the Thoth utilizes quite a lot of Christian symbolism, which is part of the reason I am so attracted to it. The Lust card, depicting a scene right out of the book of Revelation is the most potent example, but consider these too: The Emperor card features the Paschal Lamb. The Tower card features an image of a dove that most would identify as the symbol of the Holy Spirit. The Chariot card features a knight holding the Holy Grail. On both the Hierophant and Universe cards, four creatures are depicted in the four corners. These animals are identified with the four gospels and they are the same creatures seen by Ezekial in the old testament. Certainly Crowley didn't find Christianity totally befeft of meaning, no matter what he might have said.

fairyhedgehog	11 May 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Aerin I thought it was meant to look as if someone had poured a whole bottle of discoloured, decayed Fairy Liquid over it. (Shudders.) Me too. I finally found some online pictures of the grey bordered version - and now I understand what all the fuss is about. They're stunning! I thought I hated Thoth cos of the 'Fairy Liquid' effect. US Games ought to have their knuckles rapped for that one.

Liliana	11 May 2002
Ive noticed something Seems like its popular for husbands to use the Thoth lol I bought by husband the smaller version with the 3 magus cards last year. He used to use a big Thoth as his primary deck. When I et him we were at a role playing game convention and he was doing areading for someone using the big Thoth deck. Whats more sexy than a man with Tarot cards, especially a large deck with a bad reputation? ;) hehe Anyway, I personally dont like the deck, its not my art style, i dont like the minors kind of pip like nature, the court cards cofuse me, etc etc. My husband doesnt even really like it anymore either lol, but it has memories (he doesnt like Lust instead of Strength) I never really knew it had Christian symbols, thanks for telling me that, tho there is a fair share of upside down pentagrams too lol Ive always hated the Rider Waite art too, dont have one in my collection yet, but the Universal Waite and Golden Rider are pretty, so eventually Ill get one lol. The Christian symbolis in the Waite deck is something I like, asI follow an eclectic pathcombined of primarily of Christianity and Wicca :THP

Angel Star	11 May 2002
I have to agree with an earlier post this thread is quite interesting. The thing that makes me wonder is that most who have wrote about "bad vibes" got them after they read stuff about Crowley! I once read in a book if anything "evil" comes out of deck its not the deck but most likely what your putting into the deck. If the deck worked fine for you then you read something negative about it or the maker its most likely your reaction to what you think and that is why "bad vibes" get into the deck. I agree really listen to what a deck is telling you and not what you may haver read about a deck or who created the deck. "Like attacts Like"

Aerin	13 May 2002
kaz, thanks for the AG Muller heads up. I have ordered the small version of their deck via R Somerville (who interestingly don't even stock the US Games version in either oversize or normal size). I read a review on Tarot Passages which said that the normal US Games is similar in colouring to the AG Muller verion, but after the Green disaster I don't want another Thoth from them. AG Muller do the deck in German and French and English (one at a time!) according to the R Somerville site. And they do it in large, small and pocket versions. Aerin

Liliana	13 May 2002
Mine i believe is US games smaller size and is colored fine, ad i really enjoy having the extra magus cards, even if I dont like the deck much ;) :THP

Jewel	13 May 2002
Aerin, I have the large AGMuller version and the regular sized US Games (the one with the 3 magician cards), both have beautiful and brilliant colors. I figured I could use the large one to study and meditate and the smaller one for spreads. You will be surprised when you get to hold the actual cards in your hands and directly compare it to the deck you had to realize what a huge injustice US Games did to the deck.

Riversea	13 May 2002
Jewel, What does the Thoth box look like for the larger AGMuller cards? I've seen couple of different boxes for them (ones that look the same as the smaller U.S. Games deck, a fairly plain white box with black and red lettering.) I'd like to get the larger deck for my husband for his birthday. He got the smaller version which he really likes, but I think he was a bit disappointed that he didn't find the large-size (I mentioned that Liliana said that it was sexy for a man to use a large Thoth deck! LOL! Liliana, it played a part in him selecting the Thoth for himself, really!) He LOVES the artwork, so I think he'd enjoy seeing it on the larger cards, but I really want to avoid that dreaded "green" Thoth! :) Thanks!

Angel Star	14 May 2002
So the bigger Toth deck which I have considered purchasing is tinted greenish? Whatever for? If this is an oversight let me know as that is what i picked up from a post that it has a greenish tint to it. I own the smaller deck and love it but I like bigger cards sometimes but if the color is jacked up I won't bother. Why did they mess the bigger version up?

truthsayer	14 May 2002
i used the green thoth that everyone thinks is so yucky for 15 years. it didn't bother me but then ignorance is bliss. i like the blue deck that i learned of in the past year. i can't say i prefer one over the other but i'm getting a blue deck to see if it is better on the eyes. i wouldn't want to miss the right tarot experiences!

MystiqueMoonlight	14 May 2002
I got the smaller Thoth deck, only because I prefer a normal size deck. When I first saw the Thoth cards it was the bigger deck and I didn't really like it. To me the colours seemed muted... but now that you guys mention it it was a greenish tint. The normal sized deck is beautiful and attached to it right off the bat. I love this deck. It is the one with the 3 Magus cards.

Zhritza	15 May 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Jewel Aerin, I have the large AGMuller version and the regular sized US Games (the one with the 3 magician cards), both have beautiful and brilliant colors. !!! What the heck are the extra two magician cards for? (My version of this deck is very old...)

Liliana	15 May 2002
I believe they are 2 other designs considered for the Magician card. They are pretty cool, nicer than the Universal Hexagram card included with some of the larger decks :) :THP

aeonx	15 May 2002
I would love (!) to have a deck with the three Magicians in it. A scenario (if you use all three in a reading): Past, Present, Future spread and you get ... *BOMB* all three! :P That would have been cool ... and a bit scary. :D ~aeonx~

truthsayer	15 May 2002
when i found my original thoth box last week, it contained the infamous universal hexagram. it's funny to me that i simply stuck it in the box and forgot about it. that hexagram has been the subject of numerous discussions here. i must be strange b/c that green color doesn't bother me. that color has been a hot topic here, too. i've always liked green. to me it's a soft minty green. \o/ i am looking forward to getting the smaller thoth b/c it'll be easier to shuffle and i want to examine those 3 magicians closer.

aeonx	15 May 2002
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer when i found my original thoth box last week, it contained the infamous universal hexagram. it's funny to me that i simply stuck it in the box and forgot about it. :D I did the exact same thing! I took it out again after the discussions here. I didn't even think about it until then. *s* ~aeonx~

Jewel	15 May 2002
Riversea, I will examine my box tonight and post the description for you tomorrow, what is key is that it is the AGMuller version of the large Thoth not US Games. Off the top of my head I cannot remember. Angelstar, it is only the US Games large Thoth that has the Greenish tint. the AGMuller is beautiful.

Zhritza	15 May 2002
What does this "universal hexagram" look like? My box has the same design that is on the back of the cards (the design is not reversible :mad: ). It has a five-colored cross with a rose design in its middle and a starburst behind it, on a field that is patterned with little swords, pentacles, wands and cups. It was published by Llewellyn in the '60s or early '70s. Is this cross thing on the current cards too?

Liliana	16 May 2002
Yes the Rosy Cross is on the current ones too, the Universal Hexagram is a magickal symbol, heres a necklace of what one looks like, only without the circle http://store.yahoo.com/capricornslair/wovsilunhexp.html It comes as an extra card in large Thoth decks, i believe its red on black :THP

Jewel	16 May 2002
The box is a dark blue with the depiction of the Magus on the front. The title on the box reads Alister Crowley Thoth Tarot (above the Magus) and AGM (in green) AGMULLER (in white below the green acronym)below. The ISBN is 3-905021-60-9. This deck contains the "universal hexagram", but the LWB that comes with the deck sais nothing about it that I could spot at a glimpse. It is used in magic, more than that I do not know. I believe this is the only one of the Thoth decks that comes with this card. The deck comes with one Magus card. Hope this info helps.

Kaz	16 May 2002
i have the normal sized AGMuller Thoth deck and it has one magus, and the universal hexagram. the other extra card is something with info on it of the publisher. kaz

Jewel	16 May 2002
Thanks Kaz. Then for those interested in the Thoth with 3 Magus cards that would be the regular sized US Games version. The colors on that one are great!.

Zhritza	16 May 2002
oh yes, I have seen that hexagram before... is it sort of an "as above , so below" symbol? So, which deck is the green slime one that we must all avoid?

Strange2	16 May 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Qolus So, which deck is the green slime one that we must all avoid? Here's some info on the Thoth decks: - The older US Games Thoth deck that comes in a green or white box may have a greenish tinge to the cards, and the colors are somewhat muted. Thusly referred to as the "Green" Thoth. - US Games came out with a new edition in 2000, which has brighter colors and does not have a greenish tinge. They are available in a large version (3.75 x 5.5 inches, ISBN 0913866156 ), and a small version (2.75 x 4.35 inches, ISBN 0880793082). The small version comes with 3 Magus cards (see http://www.astroamerica.com/t-3mage.html ). The small 3 Magus version I purchased came in a purple box. - The Swiss Thoth deck by AGMuller is renowned for its brighter colors. It is available in a large version (ISBN 0880794690), and a mini version (2.25 x 3.5 inches, ISBN 3905219069), both in blue boxes. I recently got the mini version, very nice! I have an older US Games deck (white box) which I purchased around 1978, and indeed when compared to the US Games deck which I purchased in 2001 you can notice the greenish tinge and somewhat subdued colors as compared to the brighter colors of the new US Games or Swiss decks. Apparently the Swiss AGMuller versions used new Ektachrome shots of the paintings and recolor separated them, to achieve the brighter colors. However, the Swiss decks have been said to have some of the images on the cards a little bit cropped off, but I could not notice this in the mini version. Check this page for samples from 4 different Thoth decks: http://artoftarot.com/tcolor.jpg Top left: Llewellyn version, 1970, printed in Hong Kong Top right: Samuel Weiser version, printed in US Bottom left: US Games version, large white box, "Green" Thoth Bottom right: Swiss AGMuller version, blue box, brighter colors Hope this helps more than confuses!

Strange2	16 May 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Qolus oh yes, I have seen that hexagram before... is it sort of an "as above , so below" symbol? Here's some info about the Unicursal Hexagram that I cobbled together from various sources: The Unicursal Hexagram is a solution to the problem of drawing a six-pointed figure in a single pass, as can be done with a traditional pentagram. A unicursal design is anything that can be drawn in one move, i.e., without lifting pen from paper. The Unicursal Hexagram first appears in "Polygrams and Polygons", an article that was issued to members of the Golden Dawn. In that document, it was said to represent the Sun (top point), the Moon (bottom point), and the four elements. When Regardie published his book "The Golden Dawn", he did not have access to the document, and it was first published by Crowley, which lead to the general misconception that Crowley originated the Unicursal Hexagram. This one-pass version is easier to trace in the air during rituals than the several Star of David variants, consisting of superimposed separate triangles. In addition to this utilitarian virtue, it has some symbolic advantages as well, such as its inclusion of the center point in the figure, and its radial asymmetry. Combined with the Marian Rose, the Unicursal Hexagram becomes Crowley's personal sigil, which is the magical union of 5 and 6 giving 11, the number of magick and new beginnings. The large US Games Thoth deck had a red Unicursal Hexagram card on a black background. The pocket-sized AGMuller Thoth came with a rainbow colored Unicursal Hexagram on a black background.

Zhritza	17 May 2002
Strange2, thanks for all the info, this is all turning out to be pretty fascinating for me. :) In the image of the four Fools, the one on the top right looks the most like mine. I have a Llewellyn deck that could very well have been printed in 1970; if not, it was right around that time. But it clearly says "Printed in USA" on the box, so I don't know what's up with that. At the bookstore where I work, I have seen three Thoth decks for sale: the smaller US Games one in a lavender box (I guess this has the 3 Magi), the large AGMuller in the blue box, and another large one (same size as the AGMuller) in a green box that I guess must be the Jenny Greenteeth one. I'm glad mine has blue borders...

Angel Star	17 May 2002
I bought my deck in i think 1999 and it came in a white box and it was the smaller version. They have really been making alot of changes with all these different colored boxes and tints to this deck. I have never seen this deck come in a lavendar box ever. They have a bunch at the Barnes where I live and its a grey box I think. I saw the different colored tint on the site that Strange2 left on the post. I don't care for that greenish look. I like the regular colored Toth. :)

The Tough Times with the Thoth... thread was originally posted on 07 May 2002 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.