Vampire or Gothic Tarots

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 04 Jun 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Violet Gargoyle	04 Jun 2002
Just curious, does anyone use a vampire or gothic tarot for reading? For anyone else, do you like Vampire themed decks? Love the idea, hate it? I myself don't mind them, but I have yet to buy one since I feel that most vampire and gothic themes are kinda overdoing it in the genre. I have a couple of vampire folklore books and only in a few cultures do we get the neck biting, cross fearing, Brokerized kind of vampire culture, but it shows up in so many of the vampire stuff that you pretty much only have a choice between the Broker vampire style and symbolism, or Anne Rice's-which in of itself is a variation of the same theme though a pretty flushed out one. I would like to see an Eastern themed gothic or ghost story deck for variety. What about you folk?

Sam	04 Jun 2002
i have the vampire tarot, but don't like it that much. all i like is the major, and that's it. i like the idea though.

meatbox666	04 Jun 2002
I loveeeeeeeeeeeeeee the Vampire tarot deck. It is so amazing and when reading these cards wow, It seems to bring out alot of things about a person. The next deck I want is the Baphomet tarot deck and it goes for 60 bucks. Talk about creepy imagry. I want it NOW

Zhritza	05 Jun 2002
meatbox, was it you I was talking with about the rerelease of the Giger (previously Baphomet) deck? It's been reprinted, it's $15... still comes with the book and everything. The only difference, I believe, is that the rerelease does not come with the music CD that the Baphomet had.

truthsayer	05 Jun 2002
i don't like vampire decks as a solitary theme but i think a deck that's a much more serious version of the halloween deck would be interesting. instead of going by popular literature about supernatural beings like vampires or ghosts or banshees, doing a serious folklore based study and correlate cards. i know you aren't talking about gothic romances like jane eyre or victoria holt books but i think it would be an interesting theme. the governess is the fool. servants would comprise one suit. the courts would be the various lords and ladies involved in the story. i'm not sure who would play the widower w/ 3 children. death is the threat of death and danger surrounding the governess. i hadn't thought about it before but a gothic romance is like a cinderella tale.

catlin	05 Jun 2002
Well. if you count the Black Tarot by L. Rojo among Gothic themes ones, yes, I use this one for sexual related questions (although not many querents ask for that). I also use sometimes the Londa deck for myself. I am toying around with adding the Vampire deck to my collection but couldn't make my mind up.

Jewel	05 Jun 2002
I would love to see a really well done Vampire deck. White Wolf Publishing, who are the creators of the World of Darkness and various RPGs within that world have done a great job of creating the perfect place and context in which to do a Vampire deck. It goes away from the Bram Stoker and Anne Rice stereotypes into a different level of complexity. I do not get into playing RPGs, but I have enjoyed the novels White Wolf has published for its Vampire the Masquerade and Vampire Dark Ages series. They produced the Mage Assension deck for the Mage RPG, but I would really love to see them do a Vampire deck.

purplelady	05 Jun 2002
I Have used the halloween tarot for readings , if that counts here?! Violet Gargoyle, I've noticed a couple of your posts now about Broker and Anne Rice Vampires . I suppose I must be ignorant , but I've never heard of vampires that aren't by Anne Rice or ,I presume by "Broker" you mean Bram Stoker, the original author of "Dracula" both of which I have read. So if these aren't "real" vampires or are overdone , then what is a "real" vampire? Just curious.

Violet Gargoyle	05 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by purplelady I presume by "Broker" you mean Bram Stoker, the original author of "Dracula" both of which I have read. I did mean Bram Stoker, I got carried away with mental merging there. Don't get me wrong, I am a huge fan of Anne Rice and of Dracula, I have done research papers on the latter, theorizing the connection between Broker's version of the vampire with the symptoms of turberculosis in Victorian times. I am being picky because it is an area of folklore that I like exploring. How universal fears are transformed in different cultures. I am looking for representations of others in the genre, and griping there are only scraps of stories that don't fall in the same catagory. This carries over into tarot cards as well. As far as other kinds to explore: You have the Nosferatu- somewhat more familiar, there's the Eastern versions of Vampires-Gaki (Eastern Orient) that steal life essance, not blood. There is also stories about the Lamias (a Roman version), Cat of Nabeshima (Japan), Pey (India), Stirges (Italian), Colo-Colo (Chili), Pontianak (a vampiric flying head in Malaysia), Namorodo (Austrailian origin according to one source) Leanansidhe (Celtic), Upir (one Russian version) and a few Native American versions. Some versions of the vampire are very loosely related. (Knowing me, possibly mispelled as well) Some are indeed the same kind of vampire we are familiar with in stories, just different culture. None are necessarily more authentic, but I am dissapointed that there isn't more out there focusing on them. It could also be said that Stoker himself stole tricks from "Carmilla", a story written by Sheridan Le Fanu 20 plus years before Dracula (put down alot in Victorian times because of its lesbian undertones- shocking in the 1870's). It is an interesting read if you are looking for a gothic novel. The Jane Eyre Gothic deck is actually a pretty cool idea by the way. I've mentioned elsewhere that I have had to concede a point to White Wolf (I can get very harsh on them sometimes) but they are taking a different tack with the Kindred of the East line. I would really like to see a tarot of Vampiric Monsters from around the world. That would make an interesting read.

purplelady	05 Jun 2002
That was very informative, thanks violet g ! I think I get it. I may have heard vague mention of a few of those, most I've never heard about at all. Maybe you should create a gothic vampiric tarot from around the world!

Zhritza	05 Jun 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Violet Gargoyle It could also be said that Stoker himself stole tricks from "Carmilla", a story written by Sheridan Le Fanu 20 plus years before Dracula (put down alot in Victorian times because of its lesbian undertones- shocking in the 1870's). It is an interesting read if you are looking for a gothic novel. This sounds like something I should read... I wonder how many of the countless B-movie directors who put lesbian subtext into their vampire films had read that?

catlin	06 Jun 2002
Quite a lot I'd guess. I wonder why nobody mentioned the Tim Holland vampire stuff (it got good reviews here in Germany but I still haven't read it myself). W. Hohlbein seems also to be into vampires but I still haven't read his "Chronik der Untoten". There is also an interesting story related with a Hungarian Baroness Nadasch who was said that she had killed several of her maiden-servants (preferably virgins) and bathed in their blood to gain youth and beauty. Besides, it is said that she ripped out a bit of flesh to devour it from one of this poor girls.

Violet Gargoyle	06 Jun 2002
I know that one, too. Actually more as the "Blood Countess" Elizabeth Bathory. She was also supposed to have built a Iron Maiden with her victims hair so that it would look more like a real woman (with spikey inners). One book I read once even mentions that this iron maiden with women's hair had the name of "Encarnadine" (meaning covered in red). Qolus- I am not sure about B movies as I would be of a take off in the NP-17 area. There are at least 2 "sequels" written by modern authors, but the one I saw comes off focusing less on vampirism and more on......the NP-17 area. Purplelady- I would love to write a tarot of vampires and/or monsters (among other things-something to make this folklore degree useful), although I will have to say that my artistic ability is more in line with stick figures, hello kitty and the powerpuff girls, in other words not very sophisticated. Maybe I can rope in a better artist to help me if I make it a serious endeavor later.

Jewel	07 Jun 2002
Hi Violet Gargoyle, I think you may be on to something here ... perhaps you can partner with someone who can draw or is good at digital technology to create the deck ... your ideas and guidance, their artistic talents ... just a thought for you to ponder.

Violet Gargoyle	07 Jun 2002
Perhaps so. I love the research end of these sort of things, any excuse to get my hands on more books and put them to use.

napaea	16 Sep 2002
looking up ghosty stuff due to halloween ensuing! by the way, vg, did we ever talk about "porphyria"? that is a medical condition where i think the person actually needs the protein of the blood - or the heme i guess. someone suggested at one point that perhaps people with this disease in times past would actually drink blood, thus the idea of vampires. it has not been proven that drinking blood actually helps people with this disease, but it was a discussion for a while. on another note, i love the vampire deck by Nathalie Hertz (see my review!) though i find the cups suit difficult (which i typically love!) i enjoy the deck overall. i haven't had luck reading with it, i just haven't done readings much. i guess i'm assuming i won't have luck. but i am starting to pick my daily card from this deck. and i can't wait to get the halloween tarot. but i suspect you are right, there probably isn't a very accurate deck on vampires. i'd love to hear more about your research on this...

blue_fusion	16 Sep 2002
hi. by gothic tarot, do you mean the one published by westgate? :)

Violet Gargoyle	16 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by napaea looking up ghosty stuff due to halloween ensuing! by the way, vg, did we ever talk about "porphyria"? that is a medical condition where i think the person actually needs the protein of the blood - or the heme i guess. someone suggested at one point that perhaps people with this disease in times past would actually drink blood, thus the idea of vampires. it has not been proven that drinking blood actually helps people with this disease, but it was a discussion for a while. I have had some passing research on porphyria, but I did focus more of my attention on the Consumption and the Hemophilia connections. Mainly because of the fiction literature that I was reading for this class at the time (In the paper, I was comparing Dracula to Shakespeare's Titus Andronicus) Hemophlia being the secret "curse" of the royal families in Europe, most notably in Queen Victoria's lines (she was a carrier) and the Russian Royal family (whre her Granddaughter passed it to her son) but the symptoms displayed themselves by royals to the public had to be the stuff of rumor mills. I mean, when the disease is "secret" yet the symptoms are obvious, what else can you think? I just picked up a book last week that is a Encyclopedia of Vampires. It covers a few things that I didn't have info on before. (There is a small sort of sequel on the Werewolf- my next subject to tackle, actually Lycanthropy in general). Other folklore on vampires, as well as TV shows, movies, books, and societies.

truthsayer	16 Sep 2002
violet gargoyle, have you read the anita the vampire slayer series by laurell k. hill? i would be surprized if you haven't but if you haven't you are in for a real treat. it's totally addicting! i'm on my 5th book in around a monthes time. i never read this fast. hill adds interesting stuff about vampires, werewolves and other "mythical" creatures in the series. i don't know if it's made up or well researched but a deck based on her series would be absolutely fabulous!!!!!!

Jewel	17 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer a deck based on her series would be absolutely fabulous!!!!!! So what are you waiting for? get to work Truthsayer! *ROFLMAO* :P ... I'll help you once I read the books if you want!

truthsayer	17 Sep 2002
i have about 4 or 5 books to go before i'll know enough to accurately do the anita blake deck. so :p }) to you, miss jewel smarty pants!!!! ;) LOL i've got to take the time to clear the tarot decorations from the floor before i can take on anymore projects...

Jewel	17 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer i've got to take the time to clear the tarot decorations from the floor before i can take on anymore projects... Well I'll be here ready to help :*) .... ahhhh see what I learned to do?

Ladyhawke	17 Sep 2002
Hmm.....Anita as the Fool? Jean-Claude as the Devil? Gaaa, it's been too long since I read them. I can't remember any of the other characters. *sigh* Ladyhawke

truthsayer	17 Sep 2002
i was actually thinking of larry as the fool and anita as the high priestess. she is a necromancer after all. edward as death--what else? dolph as justice. jean claude would work as the devil. }) bert would be the hierophant. richard as either the hanged man or strength. maybe the lovers could be anita, richard and jean claude w/ her puzzling which lover to choose. the wheel of fortune would be the ferris wheel from circus of the damned. i'm sure i'll think of more as i delve further into her world. wands would be stakes. guns-swords... the moon would depict vampires rising and werewolves howling. the sun--the sun! hhmmmmm...such goodies w/ this series!

Violet Gargoyle	18 Sep 2002
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer violet gargoyle, have you read the anita the vampire slayer series by laurell k. hill? i would be surprized if you haven't but if you haven't you are in for a real treat. it's totally addicting! i'm on my 5th book in around a monthes time. i never read this fast. hill adds interesting stuff about vampires, werewolves and other "mythical" creatures in the series. i don't know if it's made up or well researched but a deck based on her series would be absolutely fabulous!!!!!! I have only read one, I'm afraid. Same with her Faerie Based series. Not that I didn't like it, I think I have this thing against sequels sometimes.....

VmprGokuboi69	25 Sep 2002
GO VAMPIRE DECKS!!!!!!!!!!!!! I love my vampire deck, it speaks to me... no i mean it really speaks to me.... hehe.... my friends don't like some of the cards cause they look "scary" but i luv them

Jeannette	01 Feb 2003
This seemed like an appropriate thread to post this information: We just received a new Gothic-themed tarot at Tarot Garden entitled, appropriately enough, the Gothic Tarot. It is not the same as the Westgate Press deck of the same name. It is a fully-illustrated 78 card deck, featuring illustrations by Joseph Vargo. You can see samples in our online database here: http://www.tarotgarden.com/database/dbsearchengine.php?view_title=gothic+vargo We won't be "officially" announcing the availability of this item on our website until later this month, but if anyone wants a copy now, it is available for purchase. It's priced at a very reasonable US$ 15. -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

RiccardoLS	02 Feb 2003
I'm working right now at a "vampire deck" for LS. The artist is gonna be Emiliano Mammucari. For myself I am a fan of White Wolf Vampire the Masquerade. Never read the novels but I played for years the Rpg :) Independently on the folklore one wants to use, I find charming the immortality of the vampire. To me he is like a creature that cannot see anymore the "Maya shroud". He has only blood and his own long life to care for. He has seen the thread of society. What meaning could have for him a new car, a better job, a Nike sneaker... absolutely nothing. He is forced to give meaning to his existence and to any of his action through a spiritual and not a material contast. That, and the continuous pull of his darker side, makes the vampire a perfect symbol for the human condition. And then it makes it a perfect subject theme for a Tarot deck. Ric

baba-prague	02 Feb 2003
Just to add to this conversation, you may like to read a very spooky (if slightly sceptical) article published in Prague Post. Most people think that vampire myths of the European variety originated in Transylvania, but actually, there is a lot of evidence that these myths first arose in Bohemia. http://www.praguepost.cz/feat032900a.html -extract: " The most famous of all such graves was discovered in 1966 in Celakovice, 10 kilometers (six miles) northeast of Prague. There, archeologists uncovered 14 skeletons dating from the 10th century. The mouths were filled with stones and sand; the heads were removed from the bodies. Stories began circulating that the skeletons had fangs. The archeologists denied this. " I think I'll give a visit to Celakovice a miss!

Jeannette	02 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by RiccardoLS I'm working right now at a "vampire deck" for LS. The artist is gonna be Emiliano Mammucari. I remember seeing your samples of the "vampire" deck at the ITS conference last year... for anyone who likes the dark/gothic themes, and especially vampires, this one looks like a real winner!!! (Are publicity samples from the deck available yet, BTW, Riccardo? I'd love to post some on the Tarot Garden website.) On a separate note, when it comes to classic "Gothic" themes, how could I have forgotten this one?: http://www.tarotgarden.com/database/dbsearchengine.php?view_title=lovecraft Although the first edition of the Lovecraft is probably more "valuable" from a collectors' standpoint, I much prefer the new edition, as the illustrations are much "cleaner" and easier to see, and the structure has been reworked so that it is more in line with that of a "standard" tarot. Anyone who enjoys Lovecraft's work should definitely check it out. -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

Violet Gargoyle	02 Feb 2003
The Gothic Tarot has got a Gargoyle! RiccardoLS said: Independently on the folklore one wants to use, I find charming the immortality of the vampire. To me he is like a creature that cannot see anymore the "Maya shroud". He has only blood and his own long life to care for. He has seen the thread of society. What meaning could have for him a new car, a better job, a Nike sneaker... absolutely nothing. He is forced to give meaning to his existence and to any of his action through a spiritual and not a material contast. That, and the continuous pull of his darker side, makes the vampire a perfect symbol for the human condition. And then it makes it a perfect subject theme for a Tarot deck. It is a fascinating topic, thats why I tear it down a lot. The idea of vampirism is age old (ps- thanks Baba-Prague for the article) but its neat to me to see how a particular culture reacts to the ideas and evolves the myth in their area. Some area simply borrow the folklore from another area that they have access to and simply make it fit in their own culture. In other areas, particularly islands, you begin to see interesting folklore that could still be chalked down to vampirism, but since it not evolved as much from other cultures, the "rules" of what a vampire is are different. (sucking chi, lifeforce, or breath from a victim instead of blood, transformations into animals, spells from medicine men) Resulting customs are interesting too, one culture may have tons of methods to protect a vampire from being created in the first place, another assumes that the is no way to stop that and so they come up with methods to protect themselves instead, and other places romanticize the idea of living for thousands of years, and so don't find the need to protect themselves much at all.

Demonesse	15 Mar 2003
Eastern versions of Vampires-Gaki (Eastern Orient) that steal life essance, not blood. There is also stories about the Lamias (a Roman version), Cat of Nabeshima (Japan), Pey (India), Stirges (Italian), Colo-Colo (Chili), Pontianak (a vampiric flying head in Malaysia), Namorodo (Austrailian origin according to one source) Leanansidhe (Celtic), Upir (one Russian version) and a few Native American versions. ---Violet Gargoyle Which culture precisely is the Gaki supposed to be from? The Chinese commonly depict vampires as being from the last dynasty - they wear court clothing and hop about with their arms outstretched :) I will have to check up on the Pey. (Sounds remarkably like another Indian word which does not mean the same at all). The Pontianak is not a flying head. (There's another word for that one - a woman rubs a certain type of oil around her neck, making her head (and all the adjoined entrails!) to detach from her body and fly around in search of blood). The Pontianak is a female vampire who has died in childbirth - usually attired in white gown, she has long flowing black hair and long nails, and can sometimes shapeshift. It prefers babies and women who are with child or are in the midst of giving birth. Heheh, I just love these topics. Anyone want to trade their spooky decks for a jar of blood and some souls? })

Violet Gargoyle	15 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Demonesse Which culture precisely is the Gaki supposed to be from? The Chinese commonly depict vampires as being from the last dynasty - they wear court clothing and hop about with their arms outstretched :) I will have to check up on the Pey. (Sounds remarkably like another Indian word which does not mean the same at all). The Pontianak is not a flying head. (There's another word for that one - a woman rubs a certain type of oil around her neck, making her head (and all the adjoined entrails!) to detach from her body and fly around in search of blood). The Pontianak is a female vampire who has died in childbirth - usually attired in white gown, she has long flowing black hair and long nails, and can sometimes shapeshift. It prefers babies and women who are with child or are in the midst of giving birth. Heheh, I just love these topics. Anyone want to trade their spooky decks for a jar of blood and some souls? }) I love this stuff too! Gaki has been put as Japanese in origin. Human looking, green or red bodies, head of a horse or Ox, horns and talons. The are more of a vigilante sort, they take the souls of the wicked to the Japanese version of Hell. Most of my original list are vampiric in tendancies, and may not reflect an actual catagory of vampire as we know it or rather, if you ask someone from that culture it is not the word vampire that they would use. Sort of like faerie lore in places not familiar with faeries. Thats where the radically different descriptions also come from, and heck, some of them could be flat out wrong. The thing that could also catagorize these as vampires is the scavenger form of feeding in order to revitalize or live. The Pey is technically more of a ghoul or demon that some of my lore books say drinks blood and cannabalized the flesh of victims. Here is the direct entry I have for Pontianak: "This is the name of a terrifying being in the folk beliefs of the Malay people of West Malaysia. The Pontianak is described as appearing in the form of a hideous head with entrails attached and dangling down from it and able to fly through the forests into houses. The Pontianak is a type of vampire that sucks the blood of babies and infants, ensuring that they weaken and die" Carol Rose- Giants, Monsters, and Dragons. Now, supporting your input above- I found this entry: "The Pontianak was a type of vampire found in Malaysia, Java, and throughout much of Indonesia. In Malaysia is was paired with the langsuyar, another Malaysian vampire with whom it shared a common origin. The mayalsian langsuyar was originally a woman who gave birth to a stillborn child. The Pontianak was that stillborn child.....In Java and throughout the rest of Indonesia the langsuyar and the Pontianak changed places, and the Pontianak referred to the female night flying vampire...." J Gordan Melton- The Vampire Book So, in a way, we are both right...nothing saying what they looked like if they werent in the "mother" form. Hey- where are your sources from, if there is a vamp folklore book I dont have- I would love to find it. No need for the blood and souls....although I have to say I am short (because I am particular about how they are done, in case you havent noticed) on spooky decks to trade. Whats on your wish list?

The Vampire or Gothic Tarots thread was originally posted on 04 Jun 2002 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.