I am designing a new tarot deck

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 13 Jul 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

GoserGosarian	13 Jul 2002
I am designing a new tarot deck. It is BEAUTIFUL. It is all photoshop made, lots of eye candy, really gorgeous. It does incorporate other peoples artwork here and there, like Royo, Boris, but all artistically redone. This just means I cant make money off it, but so F'ing what, thats not my intention. Im really excited about this. My question is this.... does anyone have any advice about getting this printed??? (Not due for a bit...) I have no quams about people downloading all my photoshop images or text files (free for all to enjoy) but I would really like to get a bunch of decks made up for myself, friends etc.. to use and enjoy. Any insights into this?? Kinkos is $$$, although I expect to spend a grand or two in this. Anyone with experience in this matter? Companies that specialize in cards? Im throwing this out into the waters as I could use advice. Ill put up a website in the next few days to showcase some cards I guess.... like I said this is not a profit-project, and when done Ill post all the images in a pack for download... but I would love to have these in deck form, and I suppose quantity would cut the cost. Im hip on trading I suppose... but this is all speculative talk... anyway thanks for the input.

Lee	13 Jul 2002
Welcome to Aeclectic! :) You might want to check out the Tarot Deck Creation Forum in the Study Group section (scroll down at the main Forums page to see it). There are several posts in that forum which relate to your queries. -- Lee

GoserGosarian	13 Jul 2002
Thanks for the redirection, Lee. Most likely, after doing some internet research, I will be printing out 2-5 decks on the inkjet printer at home, glueing the back/front, then laminating. I seem to have a unique position in that this is a non-profit project. I can honestly say that this is one of the better looking decks that I have seen, and need to tweak the colors myself to assure the best outcome in printing. I have some good friends here, and will set up a website upon completion to let anyone download the deck in .psd form and/or JPEG/Targa form. OK...how does this idea strike you. Using DVD Studio Pro, I make an interactive DVD where one "shuffles" then "deals" the cards, in a choice of layouts, the cards in small/thumbnail form. As the reader selects the cards using the arrow buttons (highlighting appropriate cards) he/she can select them, enlarging that card to full size/resolution. The reader can then give the reading based on position. Hmmm... Im thinking as I write... this is a good idea. Sound effects..ambient music... this is a good project. Anyway Im rambling...thanks for the avice.

Lee	13 Jul 2002
You know, you might want to check out Orphalese Tarot, which is a software program which allows you to shuffle and deal the cards. You can scan in any deck (or your own) for the program to use, so that might provide a lot of what you have in mind. The program is shareware, so it's free (but it's worth it to register for $12.95). You can read a review of it here. -- Lee

RedWood	13 Jul 2002
I really like the swords one I saw!

Rhiannon	13 Jul 2002
Very nice 2 of Swords. Very pretty with the butterfly wings! BTW, I love your name! Do you look like the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man? LOL ;) Rhiannon :)

Geenius at Wrok	13 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by GoserGosarian I am designing a new tarot deck. It is BEAUTIFUL. It is all photoshop made, lots of eye candy, really gorgeous. It does incorporate other peoples artwork here and there, like Royo, Boris, but all artistically redone. This just means I cant make money off it . . . No, actually, it doesn't. It's probable that no one will sue you for appropriating the images, but that doesn't mean no one can. There have been many not-for-profit TV show fan sites on the Web, for example, that have been shut down by television production companies for using images without permission. You should brush up on your copyright law. On an aesthetic note, there's eye candy, and then there's enough eye candy to give someone ocular diabetes. Ever heard the motto "less is more"?

Liliana	13 Jul 2002
Wel Id be interested in barter in some far distant future time, I love that 2 of swords :) Many people publisher decks in limited amounts on their printer like your thinking of, it sounds like itll be a fun project :THP

GoserGosarian	13 Jul 2002
Im glad Im getting positive responses... I'll post a few more card images. Theyre a little skewed because of having to resize for this post...

GoserGosarian	13 Jul 2002
Heres the Emperor...

GoserGosarian	13 Jul 2002
..and, heres the ace of wands...

GoserGosarian	13 Jul 2002
Well, Geenius, I would hope that nobody would sue, but I should look into copyright restrictions as they apply to recreating or redistributing artists work. The reason behind this project is that this deck is to be a present for my better half (girlfriend), to be handed to heras a gift upon completion. Its actually turning out better than I had planned, and because of the positive responses from friends, etc... I am looking to have them printed. I guess "published" is the wrong word... as I may have to print them myself. Also, it occurred to me over several ****tails and a reading that the little tiny book that comes with the tarot decks is an annoyance. My girlfriends Goddess deck's booklet is so used and tattered... I am starting a layout for a magazine sized book to accompany the deck, with a page-per-card description with artwork, insights etc... This will be easy to print. Anyway thanks for the input and Ill keep all interested informed. p.s. While I appreciate the suggestion about overuse of eye candy, and understand that some like a more conservative layout, thats just not my style.... more is more!!! muhahaha

Liliana	14 Jul 2002
I think its really pretty Its not like you've gone Voyager on us ;) http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/voyager/index.html :THP

Starfish	14 Jul 2002
I love the use of the butterfly wings on several of your cards and your wand symbol (with the black opal-looking stone on the end) is stunning. Thanks for sharing your pics; I know I'd like this deck (from what I've seen) in my collection. :T7W Starfish

GoserGosarian	14 Jul 2002
hehe WHOA...that voyager deck is nuts! Either tricky to read or a really long reading..hehe...

HudsonGray	14 Jul 2002
I know Kinkos here has a problem with reproducing other's copyright material--I'd done up some paper dolls & had to haul out my drivers license to prove it was ME before they'd make me 50 copies of them. It might depend on which state you're in & which Kinkos, but they implied it was across the board, they don't want to be caught in a legal battle for doing unacknowledged reproductions. The various artists work...I don't know if Boris follows up on use of his stuff, but Disney definately does, as does Wendy &Richard Pini & David Cherry. It IS their work and their livlihood, & some do defend it to the teeth. Better keep it very low profile. You're using other people's creations and the work is not copyright free.

AmounrA	14 Jul 2002
I think what you have done to there images is very beautiful.....however, if you published them in any way you would be sued. The thing is if they don't see them then fine, but if in anyway it looks like you are making money from them...they would certainly sue and would win [there agents would insist:-)]...if its stictly a private project there is no harm in it. If you wanted to do a more 'visible' deck, with your clear to see talent....then perhaps taking photographs of people and settings yourself would be a wise move.

GoserGosarian	15 Jul 2002
As I previously stated, I have NO intention of making any money at all on this project. Kinkos will not print anything remotely resembling a copyright infringement, and the art of others that I have used is referenced. This deck is a gift, and right now I have no intention of handmaking more than 2. Actually, I may have already violated some infringement somewhere by reposting an image or two without the original authors permission. Now I have to write a post like a disclaimer. My question, again, is if anyone has had any experience making a deck of this nature, if they have any tips on printing/assembling techniques, and if there is a way to print say, 100 proffesionally. I am contacting several artists and asking them similar questions, if/when I hear back Ill share the results. In reality, regardless of response I will finish this deck for myself, but it would be a shame not to be able to share it. On a lighter note, I cant wait to finish this project and do readings as I feel artistically and spiritually connected to this deck. Boris, Royo... their art touches me on a very deep level, and each image that is not mine has been very carefully and meticulously chosen to match the card and its meaning. This will be an interesting journey... Ill be sure to post anything I learn...positive or negative.

Sullanciri2002	15 Jul 2002
I personally really like the art you used for the Emperor, so if you don't mind telling me who did that piece and where it came from (L5R ???)

GoserGosarian	15 Jul 2002
Sure. BTW, after re-reading my posts, they seem to come off a little arrogant.... I guess mixing a delerious cold, medicine, & rum and cokes results in clouded typing...hehehe... Anyway, the emperor image is the artwork from the game "Throne of Darkness". Its actually two wallpapers combined, with some text. With photoshop, all internet images are "crunched" (CTRL+L), and the arrows on each end are squeezed together a little. This makes the darks darker and the brights brighter (like all-temperature cheer). Then, I usually use CTRL+U, and kick up the saturation a little. I would suggest that anyone with scanned photos or art on their computer do this. More copyright news... Ive tread a sort-of thin line by posting reproduced artwork. Ive written letters to each artist, explaining my intentions and asking advice. I explained that out of respect and religious-like admiration for their artwork, their work incorporates perfectly into a project like this. Im not going to put up a site yet, nor post any images that incorporate non-original artwork until I get some clarity about copyright issues. Of course, I could just do it and not make an issue out of it, but Tarot, and every card in this deck are connected to me spiritually and artistically in some way.... and of course who wouldnt want to see ones own deck proffesionally printed, or not share this with others. Anyway, any photoshop tips Im glad to explain (I work for Fox Sports Net) oops... plugins are a huge part of this deck, as is the Photoshop 6 WOW! book. Its all about layer styles. The CD in that book is invaluable, and I believe that the Photoshop 7 WOW! layer styles CD is available, look it up. Im rambling...goodnight folks. WTF does the "DM" in Robotussin stand for anyway...good lord.....

GoserGosarian	15 Jul 2002
oh...about the emperor...check out www.gamewallpapers.com AMAZING work there...

Mateo06	15 Jul 2002
I just love these cards, I think this is the deck i have been looking for. I want it!!! too bad u can't publish it!

GoserGosarian	15 Jul 2002
Well, we'll see what happens.... if worse comes to worse and I cant get it printed ANYWHERE, I can always send the images.

GoserGosarian	15 Jul 2002
Heres the ten of swords.... Boy, the "bad" cards sure are fun!

AmounrA	15 Jul 2002
If its only a couple of artists whose work you are playing with, I think it would certainly worth contacting them and seeing if you could come to an arrangement......your work is certainly worthy of publication..I really like your moon card....your head is certainly plugged in:-) I have photoshop 5.5 with loads of pluggins....although I do my main work on paper, it is certainly fun, manipulating the images..I can only imagine how good photoshop 7 is:-)

HudsonGray	15 Jul 2002
Goser--try e-mailing Robin Wood or Mary Hanson Roberts, they both have sites & e-mails that they can be reached at. Both have popular decks & have gone through the publisher/printing process. Oh, and what about the Julia Cuccia-Watts site? I think they self published the second deck of theirs (not sure though, the first was through US Games). They may be able to give you basic info.

GoserGosarian	16 Jul 2002
Thanks for the leads... Ill look into it. Hopefully everything will go smoothly. BTW, photoshop 7, while some features are improved, has problems with free transformation/rotating and such. The jump from 5.5 to 6 is amazing though... worth getting. Im sure theyll patch 7 though soon.

GoserGosarian	16 Jul 2002
The following email response is from the rep from Boris Vallejo and Julie Bell's site, regarding my question regarding copyright infringement. I asked specifically about using their images in a personal tarot deck with no intent to sell or distribute. Thank you for your e-mail. While we do appreciate your enjoyment of Boris Vallejo and Julie Bells's art, there is indeed a copyright issue. Because of legal contractual obligations we cannot allow the use of their images for the purpose that you mentioned. In addition Boris and Julie are currently working on a set of Tarot cards of their own. We hope you will understand our legal limitation and continue youre enjoyment of their work. Cordially, Myrna Johnson borisjulie.com I will not comment on how my personal decks will look.... but if I do distrubute them, obviously I need to make a few changes. Freakin' lawyers.... hehe

Sally Gardens	16 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by GoserGosarian The following email response is from the rep from Boris Vallejo and Julie Bell's site, regarding my question regarding copyright infringement. I asked specifically about using their images in a personal tarot deck with no intent to sell or distribute. Thank you for your e-mail. While we do appreciate your enjoyment of Boris Vallejo and Julie Bells's art, there is indeed a copyright issue. Because of legal contractual obligations we cannot allow the use of their images for the purpose that you mentioned. In addition Boris and Julie are currently working on a set of Tarot cards of their own. We hope you will understand our legal limitation and continue youre enjoyment of their work. Cordially, Myrna Johnson borisjulie.com I will not comment on how my personal decks will look.... but if I do distrubute them, obviously I need to make a few changes. Freakin' lawyers.... hehe Well, realistically, they're not likely to do anything about something you create in the privacy of your home "for personal use with no intent to sell or distribute," and I think it's a bit ridiculous to attempt to control you at this level. They're probably just heading you off at the pass to make sure you don't attempt to distribute any such work. I don't think the lawyers can prevent you from playing around with Photoshop for personal amusement, even if it does involve copyrighted work. They'd have to demonstrate that said activity caused economic or reputational harm to the artist, and that'd be a pretty slim thing to prove if what you did was confined to your home. Now, if you start (keep) posting these on the web, or otherwise start distributing them (beyond maybe a copy for your friend), then I can see where they might build a case - if they deemed it worth their time. Again, depends upon the extent of the potential "damage," and how much time and money they have to pursue that particular lawsuit. Bottom line: If you want to show off your creations beyond a private circle of friends offline, you'll need to either use public domain (generally old) art or work on creating your own - or get a talented artist friend to collaborate with you.

HudsonGray	16 Jul 2002
Well.........you never know. Back in 1989 I made 5 Hobbes tigers out of fake fur, one for me, 3 for friends & 1 that went to the sf convention with me that I sold for $10 to a SF fan who walked up. In 2 months I got a letter out of Missouri from the lawyer of the artist--stating that while they had no intent of issuing a stuffed toy at this time they had become aware that I'd made one & I needed to destroy the pattern & cease & decist plus tell them how many had been made......... I really have NO idea how they got my address or name from it, but they did follow up. I sent them a letter back explaining the circumstances & promising on my death bed I'd never do another one. They DO follow up on stuff, don't assume that just because you're small time they'll ignore you. Be right up front.

Laurel	16 Jul 2002
I'd suggest starting over, working with copy-right free artwork, or purchasing licensing rights to specific images from the artist's themselves. That way, you'll know that you are okay. Here's two related sites I use all the time for personal/commercial projects. I find them ~very~ affordable for what I get. I've literally saved thousands of dollars in art costs and have a clear conscience to boot. :) http://www.arttoday.com/ http://www.rebelartist.com/ The chances are that there would be no legal repercussions for making the deck the way you are, for personal use, but that letter you got was pretty straight-forward. If I was one of the artists involved, I'd want my wishes respected. I'm sure you'll make the decision that is right for you, though. Laurel

Sally Gardens	16 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by HudsonGray Well.........you never know. Back in 1989 I made 5 Hobbes tigers out of fake fur, one for me, 3 for friends & 1 that went to the sf convention with me that I sold for $10 to a SF fan who walked up. In 2 months I got a letter out of Missouri from the lawyer of the artist--stating that while they had no intent of issuing a stuffed toy at this time they had become aware that I'd made one & I needed to destroy the pattern & cease & decist plus tell them how many had been made......... I really have NO idea how they got my address or name from it, but they did follow up. I sent them a letter back explaining the circumstances & promising on my death bed I'd never do another one. They DO follow up on stuff, don't assume that just because you're small time they'll ignore you. Be right up front. I suspect that was because you brought your Hobbes to a big convention AND sold it to someone that they found out and followed up. They sniffed a hint of unauthorized merchandizing. If you had only made the things at home and shown them to a few friends in the privacy of your home, I doubt you'd have heard a word. Then again, lawyers aren't necessarily reasonable or rational, especially if they sniff a potentially lucrative lawsuit. ;) You'd think that they wouldn't be so draconian, if there's no demonstrable harm to the "intellectual property" in question, but they're driven by money - or maybe as much by the ego boost of issuing intimidating "cease and desist" decrees :D - not by giving the little fans a break.

faunabay	16 Jul 2002
Has nobody latched onto the thought that Boris is working on a tarot deck??? I'd absolutely love to see a Boris Villejo tarot deck!!! And Goser my thoughts are that you'd have no problems if you just kept your deck to your friends, but posting them on this site is pushing it (even thought I LOVE them :) ). As much as I want to see more, I'd suggest not posting anymore here after the "no nonsense" attitude of the response you got.

GoserGosarian	16 Jul 2002
Like I said... hehe.. no comment on my PERSONAL deck... but its no big deal to change out a few offending cards. The copyright notice for Boris/Julie's site clearly stated that I couldnt even scan and/or copy their work for PERSONAL use from any source. Im not going to start a debate about the rights of an artist, but these folks are pretty anal. I fully realize the intent of copyright, and the protection of the artist, but regulating digital images on the net is RIDICULOUS. Personally, I would want all the exposure I could get, and anyone with enough class to BUY the artwork, much less frame it and/or mount it, isnt going to opt for a printed picture from the net. It just bugs me seeing a 5 page disclaimer associated with art... it really sucks the magic out of the whole experience. Unless, of course, youre selling schlocky paint-by-numbers crap like Thomas Kinkade. Anyways, Im sure eventually Ill print a professional style deck with 100% original art... but not yet. Ive only got 30 cards left to do out of 78. Here's a little thought... does anyone here make CD's? Or has anyone here ever made a compilation tape for yourself or for someone you love? I mean sure, I could learn to play guitar (better) and write a song, but will it ever sound as good as Pink Floyd? Will your songs have the same sentimental value or pull on the same emotions? Well, then... I guess my compilation was meant only for me and the one I love.

GoserGosarian	16 Jul 2002
p.s. to repeat myself AGAIN.... I stated that I would not be posting any un-original artwork, and havent for days now. Check out the Wands-VIII or the MOON card that I posted... that is 100% original. Actually, with the exception of my girlfriends face appearing in the moon card and a couple of wolves, these cards are 100% computer generated by photoshop plugins. Take this one... the sun. The sun is a lens flare from KPT6, the sky is a radial gradient, the water is Flaming Pear's "Flood" plugin, and all card borders are layer styles. Then, a photo is yanked from the album and scanned in and blurred about the hair. This card took about 15 minutes to make.

AmounrA	16 Jul 2002
GoserGosarian, A diversion onto your pink floyd, I have made up 2 c.d from downloaded rare floyd tracks from there ummagumma--meddle period.....untouchable magikal soundology.. Have you ever played the track echoes off the meddle album, with the final sequence from 2001 a space odessy?.the instant the words 'Jupiter.beyond the infinite' appear, press play on the full echoes version......and sit back and enjoy one of the spookiest sychronicities ever.....they not only allign, they complement each other so well, that a third enity is born[ feels like contact]..they are both 23 minutes long..it is truley bizzare. [ kpt6 lenseflare........you can do some smart effects with that...and the goo....]

GoserGosarian	17 Jul 2002
Wow... I havent listened to echoes for a while... the last thing I mixed with the album Meddle was acid....

Marie	18 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by GoserGosarian In addition Boris and Julie are currently working on a set of Tarot cards of their own. Wow, Boris is making a tarot deck?? That should be interesting! Marie mary-el tarot

GoserGosarian	18 Jul 2002
Yeah Im way stoked on Boris/Julie doing a deck....plenty of images to scan..lol JUST KIDDING!!! I own a lot of their work...actually I decided to start collecting decks today ofter a moving bonus came in.... I know of a store here with decks, and Barnes and Noble...but Im raiding San Jose today... wish me luck.

Ravenswing	19 Jul 2002
speaking of floyd. have you tried the wizard of oz trip? take the video of 'wizard of oz', turn down the volume, and start it up. as soon as the mgm lion roars for the thrid time, start up 'dark side of the moon' really wild... ravenswing ps-- back to the thread. i wouldn't put any images up 'cept the totally original ones-- they're beautiful enough. then, for those you wish to send a deck, zip it up and e-mail. no sale, no swap, just a gift. ### this one just occurred to me-- what if you consider this project as a demonstration of the power of photoshop and not primarily as a tarot deck? i think self publishing would be a way to go-- check out the deck section for those that have been self-published. i'm sure the creators would be happy to give you methods. and maybe some of the creators of collage decks. some of them may have run into the same or similar problems.

Lee	19 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by stevepolsz check out the deck section for those that have been self-published. i'm sure the creators would be happy to give you methods. Also check out the Tarot Deck Creation section under Study Groups. :) -- Lee

purplelady	27 Jul 2002
gg- I Really like some of the cards you posted. I know it's a drag always having to worry about copyright. It probubly is a good idea to use only your own material. And why Not sell it for profit? I cannot stop Wondering just how the rock and roll tarot guy gets away with selling all those decks! (great deck!) I find it hard to believe all of those bands gave permission? I am seriously curious about this??????? I Love Boris's work!

divinerguy	27 Jul 2002
I suspect that the licensing of the images came from the music publishers. that way, there would be far fewer licensing issues. I think the big problem in publishing decks is the actual printing of the decks.

The I am designing a new tarot deck thread was originally posted on 13 Jul 2002 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.