Where are all the good Tarot decks?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 21 Jul 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

divinerguy	21 Jul 2002
It seems as though there is a lack of creativity in many Tarot decks that are on the market. Theme decks reflect the likes of the reader, and are relatively pointless for anyone who is not a devotee of the theme. You outgrow these decks pretty quickly I want quality artwork, not the comic book images that Lo Scarabeo is shoving down our throats. No collage decks, and no more primitive art which tries to hide a lack of artistic talent. If you can't draw, then use photos. I don't want people messing around with the majors, I like them where they are, and we have just the right number of them. I don't want them renaming the court cards or suits into kooky themes. (Step-father of Coffee Cups, Countess of Crows, etc.) I have great reservations about decks who use Dianic Wicca as an excuse to exclude males from decks. Unless they plan to repopulate the world asexually, I suggest they get over it. I hate Tarot decks that are too dark or too sugary. Decks should reflect life, not attempt to flee from it. And no more decks that are too big to big to hold in your hand. If I need a spatula to flip the cards, then its probably too big. Well, now that I've offended just about everyone's decks, let's hear what annoys you. (Probably me, but I'll get over it).

Jenny-Li	21 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy Well, now that I've offended just about everyone's decks, let's hear what annoys you. (Probably me, but I'll get over it). I love your attitude, but I'm not offended, and my decks can handle a bully...! ;):D;) I can see your point, what bothers me mostly is that practically every deck has a couple of rotten eggs in them. I mean no matter how beautiful, stunning, original and creative the deck is, there is always one or two that seem to not quite fit in there. It clashes with the rest of the artwork, the symbolism seems to come from a different planet or something and the card itself just sort of pushes you away! I do have this idea of getting my dad to make a deck, but before he does, he has to have some instructions, and... I'm just not there yet! SOME day though...! And THAT will be the Perfect Deck, I promise! ;) Jenny :)

RedWood	21 Jul 2002
I get what you are saying diviner guy...Even tho I have quite a few decks you mentioned..hehe....Take for instance the Mythic Tarot ..There are a couple cards I like..but all together, they look like crap..I think they are funny more then ticked cuz the art is crap..The magician..the book says he looks weary..I just think the artist couldn't draw worth crap..It is one of my favorite decks and Yes I do like the Greek Theme..I get tarot much better after reading the book tht came with it.. DivinerGuy--What are your favorite decks that you work with?? (i heard you mention cosmic a few times on other posts..I am patiently waiting for mine)

Lee	21 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by RedWood Take for instance the Mythic Tarot ..There The magician..the book says he looks weary..I just think the artist couldn't draw worth crap.. Hi, RedWood -- I've read the Mythic Tarot book several times, and I don't recall it saying that the Magician looks weary... are you sure about that? Maybe it's there and I just never noticed, but I really don't remember it. -- Lee :)

RedWood	21 Jul 2002
Lee--You are right...I don't know where I got that from...Now it is going to bug me...I think it might of been when i was showing my sister the card...I said he looked weary (for lack of a better reason his face looks a bit off..joking around with her)...Sorry for completely misquoting something that wasn't there. Wow where was my brain..lol

jema	21 Jul 2002
the next question is - how many new decks do we need? what kind of wonderful insight might we have missed in those we already have? (almost like blasphemy coming from a collector) i am seriously considering to cut down on my collection (have about 50 decks today) and concentrate it on a few (perhaps 20 decks) that i really like. i really do not need a wizard of oz deck, or a deck about buffy the vampire slayer, or yet another R-W clone. (ok, i lied - i do need the universal rider) perhaps i am just going through a phase right now. but has it been a really great tarot release this year?

midnightmerry	21 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy Theme decks reflect the likes of the reader, and are relatively pointless for anyone who is not a devotee of the theme. You outgrow these decks pretty quickly. I don't want people messing around with the majors, I like them where they are, and we have just the right number of them. And no more decks that are too big to big to hold in your hand. If I need a spatula to flip the cards, then its probably too big. Well, now that I've offended just about everyone's decks, let's hear what annoys you. (Probably me, but I'll get over it). Well, Divine you didn't offend me because as you know I included some of the same complaints in my tarot resolutions. I don't mind originality in creating decks, but when people start completely re-doing the majors (or minors!), please don't insist on calling it Tarot anymore. Call it an Oracle deck, but stop milking the word 'tarot' for all its worth. Thematic decks are ok with me- if I'm really interested in the theme! I'm looking at the Templar Deck right now- very nice. Also, I consider multi-cultural decks somewhat thematic & I like them, too. The only thing I have trouble with is when an artist has put such a personal twist to the artistic interpretation of the card, you'd have to know the artist personally to understand what was going on. How helpful is that? I agree with your 'if you can't draw, use pictures'. I don't mind 'primitive' art as long as it is truly artistic (Tarot of the Trance is a good example, imo), but some of these folks just plain can't draw! I know that art is subjective but still, sometimes a deck just screams with lack of talent. And I think I expressed myself elsewhere about the Lo Scarabeo decks I've tried so far. They don't work for me either.

Sally Gardens	21 Jul 2002
"Long time pa-a-ssing...." (Sorry.) Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy It seems as though there is a lack of creativity in many Tarot decks that are on the market. I don't know. Given the variety of approaches you've gone on to list, I'd say there's plenty of creativity. ;) It's just that a lot of what's being created apparently doesn't appeal to you. Quote: Theme decks reflect the likes of the reader, and are relatively pointless for anyone who is not a devotee of the theme. You outgrow these decks pretty quickly But on the positive side, they can shed new light on the cards and their archetypes, as can any viewing of the familiar from a different angle. Even if they don't suit you as a long-term reading deck, thematic decks serve their purpose in sparking the imagination and (if they're good) triggering new insights. Quote: I want quality artwork, not the comic book images that Lo Scarabeo is shoving down our throats. No collage decks, and no more primitive art which tries to hide a lack of artistic talent. If you can't draw, then use photos. One person's crap is another person's creativity. :D Quote: I don't want people messing around with the majors, I like them where they are, and we have just the right number of them. Yeah! With Justice as VIII and Strength as XI .... or was that Strength as VIII and Justice as XI....??? }) }) }) Buhwahahaha! }) }) }) Quote: I don't want them renaming the court cards or suits into kooky themes. (Step-father of Coffee Cups, Countess of Crows, etc.) But think of all the caffeine-fueled corporate drones for whom the Step-father of Coffee Cups provides profound spiritual connection. And some people like count-ing crows... (Dodging rotten tomatoes.) Quote: I have great reservations about decks who use Dianic Wicca as an excuse to exclude males from decks. Unless they plan to repopulate the world asexually, I suggest they get over it. Woman-centered decks work for woman/Goddess-centered spirituality. If you don't want a woman-centered deck, don't use it. *shrug* I don't get Dianic-bashing. Preferring female imagery for the divine, and preferring to see oneself reflected in all facets of the Tarot, is a far cry from saying women have no use for men at all. (Yeah, I know that Ffiona Morgan's book and deck push that envelope, but I don't think the same is true of other woman-centered decks. And hey, to each her own.) And I wouldn't get too worried about repopulating the world ;)what with the current count being 6 billion and still increasing. Quote: And no more decks that are too big to big to hold in your hand. If I need a spatula to flip the cards, then its probably too big. OTOH, I like being able to see the artwork without squinting or having to use a magnifying glass. Large cards can be shuffled by shmearing them around on the tabletop/cloth/other surface till they're good and mixed. Quote: Well, now that I've offended just about everyone's decks, let's hear what annoys you. (Probably me, but I'll get over it). Nah. How could I be offended when you've given me good material for a fun lazy-Sunday-afternoon reply? :D Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to work on my Ultimate Dianic Spatula Collage Comic Book Coffee Cup Crow Bar deck....

Lee	21 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Sally Gardens I don't get Dianic-bashing. Preferring female imagery for the divine, and preferring to see oneself reflected in all facets of the Tarot, is a far cry from saying women have no use for men at all. Hey, does that mean us men will soon be getting an all-male deck? I've been waiting a long time for that one... :D -- Lee

Jenny-Li	21 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by jema the next question is - how many new decks do we need? what kind of wonderful insight might we have missed in those we already have? Is that the point of collecting? Now, I have a rather modest collection, only 6 decks so far, but in my mind it is waaaay :D bigger than that. But that has nothing to do with "needing" more decks to read with - it's more of an art collection, seeing other ways to express a well known theme. In my case the search for the perfect reading deck will probably have me stumble on many collecting decks, decks that may have only a few cards that I like and can relate to, but for those few cards it's worth having anyway. Sometimes a certain artistic concept of a card can add to the way you understand the whole idea behind that card/archetype. If the rest of the cards are meaningless to you that one card still has had something to tell you... Just thinking out loud here, these thought popped up when reading your post, Jema, but it doesn't mean I don't see where you're coming from with it! I understand, but want to argue the different relations we form with different decks! Light and love, Jenny :)

WolfSpirit	21 Jul 2002
divinerguy- has it occurred to you you may be suffering from deck fatigue ? Maybe it's time to donate some of your decks ;) and start afresh !

Violet Gargoyle	21 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Lee Hey, does that mean us men will soon be getting an all-male deck? I've been waiting a long time for that one... :D -- Lee Yeah, I can see it. Ladies and Gentlemen- The MAN Deck. Or the He-Man deck. Or the Deck of Bob. Suits could be Oil Cans, Poker Chips, Chainsaws, and PVC Piping. The knights are all on Harleys and the Kings all have their own flatbed trucks (Sorry Divinerguy!) On a more serious note. I like deviation from the normal patterns. I have no use to collect decks unless I see variety or can think about a certain card in a diiferent way. This includes all the different art mediums that are currently used. Sure there are crappy looking decks, they make me appreciate the beautiful ones more. I can't say I can draw any better, so who am I to complain? Divinerguy- Is it possible for you to create your own deck that might fulfill your preferances? Maybe if you feel that something is missing from current decks, then it may be a hint that you can go a different route and create your own deck? Or do you have an artist friend that can help you?

Sally Gardens	21 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Lee Hey, does that mean us men will soon be getting an all-male deck? I've been waiting a long time for that one... :D You know what to do: Get your scissors and glue and your back issues of GQ, and start collaging! :D Quote: Violet Gargoyle: Ladies and Gentlemen- The MAN Deck. Oh, GAWD. I just had the most horrible vision of a deck designed by Adam Kerola and what's-his-face the sidekick of the Man Show.... Kinda makes ya wish for another RWS clone, now, doesn't it?

Lee	21 Jul 2002
But seriously, folks, I honestly think that an all-woman deck is just as ridiculous as an all-man deck. -- Lee

Sally Gardens	21 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Lee But seriously, folks, I honestly think that an all-woman deck is just as ridiculous as an all-man deck. Eh, maybe if viewed within the "micro" perspective of a single deck, but within the "macro" perspective of five millenia of male-centrism, it balances out. ;)

divinerguy	21 Jul 2002
Redwood - My current reading decks are the Mini-motherpeace, the pocket-sized Rider-Waite, and the Cosmic Tarot. Less often, I'll read with the Rohrig, the Daughters of the Moon (which is on its way to you), and the Voyager. Soon, I'll be doing a few readings with the Haindl and the Cloisters.

wavebreaker	22 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Sally Gardens Eh, maybe if viewed within the "micro" perspective of a single deck, but within the "macro" perspective of five millenia of male-centrism, it balances out. ;) Exactly! ;) Why do men feel so threatened anyway whenever something is "women-only"? Afraid to feel left out? Well, that's what women have felt like for centuries... ;) But, back to tarot decks ;): if you don't like an all-women deck, you just don't buy it. Just because someone thinks it's ridiculous, does that mean it shouldn't be made?? Different decks for different tastes...

Liliana	22 Jul 2002
Well in my mind all the good tarot decks are being released by Lo Scarabo next year, but not to yours since they are mostly theme decks ;) And my deck can stand your bullying, only category at all that you complained about that I feel my deck fits in is the too big complaint. But any smaller and you couldnt see all the amazing detail in the art, including the amazing art on the back of the cards. Of course Im talking of my Rohrig deck. And I believe it reflects modern life better than a majority of those Reinassance ones :THP

divinerguy	22 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by tarotlady Exactly! ;) Why do men feel so threatened anyway whenever something is "women-only"? Afraid to feel left out? Well, that's what women have felt like for centuries... ;) But, back to tarot decks ;): if you don't like an all-women deck, you just don't buy it. Just because someone thinks it's ridiculous, does that mean it shouldn't be made?? Different decks for different tastes... Got a question for you. Do you think women should be allowed a "grace period" during which they are permitted to be sexist and unfair towards men? That's what you're suggesting. Your question about men feeling threatened is rhetorical, and I won't jump at the bait. Its not that some decks are "all women" that bothers me. Its the fact that these decks are openly hostile to men. They go so far as to avoid using any words which include the masculine. "Women" becomes "wimmin" and "woman" becomes "womyn." One of the guidebooks assigns nothing but malevolent characteristics to the few male figures portrayed in the deck. Another talks about the discomfort of childbirth as being the fault of males. Sorry, but I won't accept the blame. If someone is a bigot (DOTM creator Ffiona Morgan), I'll say so. If she's on this board, I'll debate her on the subject. In friendly disagreement,

midnightmerry	22 Jul 2002
Quote: Ladies and Gentlemen- The MAN Deck. Or the He-Man deck. Or the Deck of Bob. Suits could be Oil Cans, Poker Chips, Chainsaws, and PVC Piping. The knights are all on Harleys and the Kings all have their own flatbed trucks [/b] [/quote]Exactly! Why do men feel so threatened anyway whenever something is "women-only"? Afraid to feel left out? Well, that's what women have felt like for centuries.[/quote] Ok, I'll be the dissenting female here. This will be long, but it touched on a subject I feel strongly about. This is wondering away from Tarot, but the subject has come up. I can only imagine if a man had made the above statements, some women would be foaming at the mouth at his chauvinism and crudity. There was an immediate jump at the idea of a "Man Deck" portraying men in all stereotypical glory, all the way down to pvc piping. That's the equivalent of suggesting a "Woman Deck" with hair rollers, lipstick, aprons, and frying pans. When I think of an all-male deck, I think of the dignity & power of male archetypes and the myriad ways men make our lives easier. Yes, I know the "Man Deck" was meant as a joke, but women can't stand it when jokes are made at their expense; why should we be allowed to behave differently? If you want equality, give equal respect. Besides, I suspect the imagery suggested doesn't fit nearly as many males as we'd like to think. Ex: The suggested "Man Deck" wouldn't fit my husband at all: he's an intellectual, doesn't own a flatbed and doesn't want to, and engages in mental pursuits rather than sports/labor, so the chain saw is out. However, books, literature, philosophy, and spiritual themes would fit him to a T; it's not too far out of bounds to say please stop indirectly dissing my husband (and others like him) by lumping him together with your preconceived ideas of manhood. How chauvinistic. As far as men being 'threatened' by women-only activities, I've noticed that women seem to feel that being equal and liberated means that we should have an automatic entrance to every aspect of the male-world, including men's dressing's rooms. Can you imagine the response from women if men demanded the same right? Thank goodness *they* seem to have retained some taste and discretion! And we can't seem to tolerate ANY all-male group, from private men's clubs to all-male schools, so when men protest about the exclusitivity of Dianic groups, please remember than we are doing the exact same thing in reverse. Again, equality needs to go both ways. I think men are quite correct to demand that they be allowed access to ALL areas of our life, since we are demanding the same thing from them, including invading what is usually considered private areas of life, like dressing rooms. There is absolutely no doubt that redress needed to be made for abuses that women have endured through history & are still enduring now. But you don't correct a problem by becoming what you objected to in the first place.

wavebreaker	22 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy Got a question for you. Do you think women should be allowed a "grace period" during which they are permitted to be sexist and unfair towards men? That's what you're suggesting. No, that's NOT what I suggested, you are putting words into my mouth now. I only said something about all-women decks, nothing about anti-men decks. FYI, I don't think that's the same thing. Maybe you noticed the smilie after my remark about men feeling threatened by being left out? I used that to indicate that it was meant as a teasing remark, but now I'm being "sexist" and "unfair"?? Oh, please, where's your sense of humour...

Marion	22 Jul 2002
To go back to divinerguy's original post about what he wants or does not want to see when he actually puts down money for a deck. There have certainly been some comments already made that I agree with. When I actually pay money for a deck, I want it to be different enough that when I get it home it doesn't seem like just another minor variation on the theme. I like to see a coherent artistic vision. That is one of my few quarrels with the Osho Zen.. it looks as if it were done by three or four different artists. At least one of whom is a frustrated anime artist. But, how different? I know lots of folks here love the Rohrig, but it just makes me reel back. Too much! Too many images, too loud!! It is a given that I have to like the art or colour scheme, and like most people it has to attach itself to something already in my psyche or it won't 'work'. I can live with re-naming the suits, though I find myself saying internally, 'stones, right that's pentacles'. So I suspect the artists' vision in that regard is lost on me. How's that for totally contradictory? Different but not way out there. Coherent vision but I still love the OZ. Just call me human.

midnightmerry	22 Jul 2002
Hi All. I started a topic called "Liberated Behavior" under ATForums>Non-Tarot>Chat, if anyone feels compelled to continue the discussion about men/women & behavior. I realize my post was OT and I apologize.

Kellinator	22 Jul 2002
While I'm not a fan of Daughters of the Moon precisely because it strikes me as anti-male, I don't see what makes an all-female tarot any worse than, say, a tarot in which all the images are of members of a certain ethnic or cultural group. If we were taking out all the male images in the entire tarot everywhere and making them female, then that would be oppressive, but I think female-themed decks are just as worthy as other themed decks. Some work, some don't, but they're an alternative, not a tool of oppression. Kellinator

WolfSpirit	22 Jul 2002
Quote: I understand very well what you're saying. Still, I have two loScarabeo decks on my wish list (the art nouveau and the not yet published Mermaids) but I don't have any LS decks yet. I guess neither will become a favourite deck for reading, I just want them for the pretty pictures. I'd like to have two decks like that-but not twenty. I suppose you get more particular when you have more decks.

Violet Gargoyle	22 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Violet Gargoyle Yeah, I can see it. Ladies and Gentlemen- The MAN Deck. Or the He-Man deck. Or the Deck of Bob. Suits could be Oil Cans, Poker Chips, Chainsaws, and PVC Piping. The knights are all on Harleys and the Kings all have their own flatbed trucks (Sorry Divinerguy!) I just wanted to add a PS: The suits suggested for the MAN deck were actually suggestions by my husband, who was reading the post with me. He is now seriously thinking about creating such a thing..... ....And for all intents and purposes, I do find a deck with hair rollers, lipstick, aprons, and frying pans a rather funny idea... kinda like Tim Allen vs. Rosanne Barr between the two. I am still interested in this topic. Divinerguy, are you able to create your own deck with your preferances?

divinerguy	22 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Violet Gargoyle I am still interested in this topic. Divinerguy, are you able to create your own deck with your preferances? Someday, maybe. But for now, there are other windmills in need of tilting.

Sally Gardens	23 Jul 2002
First, I want to make clear - in case the humor of my replies obscured my serious point - that I do not think an all-male deck would be self-evidently "ridiculous." And, as one who uses a female-oriented deck and sees no need to include so-called "gender polarity" (dichotomy, dualism, the belief in some things being "masculine" and some things being "feminine") in either her spirituality or worldview, I definitely don't consider my women/Goddess-centered deck, or the spirituality it reflects, to be "ridiculous." What's interesting is to observe the difference between existing woman-centered decks and the concepts of "man" decks that were tossed out - with tongue firmly in cheek, admittedly - on this board. The woman/Goddess decks strive to go beyond gender stereotypes. (I say "strive" because Motherpeace, for example, does get a wee bit Utopian at times - but then, it's a strongly mythic deck, and mythology will do that.) Their purpose is to depict the full range of HUMAN experience through images of women, human and divine. The "Man Show" type of deck, on the other hand, would reinforce gender stereotypes - not necessarily at their worst ("honor" killings and similar brutalities have to take first place, here), but certainly at their most ludicrous. (I've often said that the "Man Show" is probably more offensive to most men than it is to women - "juggies" notwithstanding. :rolleyes: ) Instead of going beyond "masculine" and "feminine" to show that men, too, potentially encompass the full spectrum of HUMAN, it reinforces the limited-palatte, "men and women are opposites" notion of sexual identity. To have a healthy man/God-centered deck, it would have to act similarly to woman/Goddess-decks and spirituality: Just as women-centered decks broaden the depiction of women beyond nurturing, intuitive, etc., to include strength, intelligence, force of will, leadership, etc., so a good man-centered deck would broaden the depiction of men beyond strength, intelligence, force of will, leadership, etc. to include nurturing, intuitive, etc. If anyone is inspired to create such a deck, it would not be "ridiculous" but a welcome contribution to going beyond gender dualism and toward nurturing whole human beings. (P.S. - On a personal note, my Inner Idiot is sulking because nobody noticed my lame pun on "Where have all the flowers gone." Maybe I'm just getting old.)

midnightmerry	23 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Sally Gardens What's interesting is to observe the difference between existing woman-centered decks and the concepts of "man" decks that were tossed out - with tongue firmly in cheek, admittedly - on this board. The "Man Show" type of deck, on the other hand, would reinforce gender stereotypes ...it reinforces the limited-palatte, "men and women are opposites" notion of sexual identity... To have a healthy man/God-centered deck, it would have to act similarly to woman/Goddess-decks and spirituality. (P.S. - On a personal note, my Inner Idiot is sulking because nobody noticed my lame pun on "Where have all the flowers gone." Maybe I'm just getting old.) Well, I was trying to keep this on topic! You've said much more eloquently some of what I was trying to point out. And yes, I did notice your pun, but got so busy pontificating I overlooked remarking on it. Sorry! :|

Lee	23 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Sally Gardens To have a healthy man/God-centered deck, it would have to act similarly to woman/Goddess-decks and spirituality: Just as women-centered decks broaden the depiction of women beyond nurturing, intuitive, etc., to include strength, intelligence, force of will, leadership, etc., so a good man-centered deck would broaden the depiction of men beyond strength, intelligence, force of will, leadership, etc. to include nurturing, intuitive, etc. Let me clarify my previous post -- I don't actually think an all-woman deck is ridiculous. The point I was trying (and failing!) to make was that *if* the concept of an all-male deck is ridiculous, which several people here seemed to be suggesting (with some humor that came across as rather harsh, IMO), then I felt the concept of an all-female deck would be just as ridiculous, or not, as an all-male deck. I don't really think either one is ridiculous. I think Sally Garden has put it very well. I would welcome such an all-male deck as she describes. Actually, I would welcome such a deck even if it was gender-balanced. The problem (and I think Divinerguy might agree) is that the decks out there which contain these qualities are specifically female-oriented. The implication on the part of the decks' creators seems to be that men wouldn't be interested in such things, but I would love to have such a deck, either male-oriented or gender-balanced. -- Lee

catboxer	23 Jul 2002
Do we really need any new decks? Or any of the ones that have been produced in the last 40 years? Probably not. Do we need more Bibles? A feminist Bible? A socialist Bible? The Environmentalists' Bible? A disabilities-sensitive Bible? The Dyslexic Left-Handed Vertically-Challenged Government Clerical Workers' Bible? That's the worst new idea of the last 15 minutes. Want the essence of tarot and a historical overview? You'd probably have all you need with just: *The Visconti-Sforza (Lo Scarabeo's is passable; Luigi Scapini did the four missing cards); *A Marseilles deck (Camoin 1760 version); *The Soprafino (1835 -- Alida Store); *Universal Waite; *The Thoth *If one really must have an up-to-date modern deck, the Robin Wood. While the world may not need new decks, those of us who are deep into this subject do. Nothing helps an appreciation of tarot like rolling your own, so I've produced my own deck, and it's full of idiosyncracies that are ahistorical, and that I'm sure other people wouldn't like. The world doesn't need it, but I do.

Liliana	23 Jul 2002
Universal Waite was definately within the last 40 years ;) Just being an instigator hehe :THP

catboxer	23 Jul 2002
Yeah, ok, it's an EDIT of a 1910 product. I stand corrected.

Liliana	23 Jul 2002
I was just kidding with you :) Truthfully tho, why do I need a new deck? Because I dont live in the times of people all those years ago. I live ina modern world with tvs and cars and guns, doing things they never dreamed of. Sure, Tarot is a timeless symbol, but I often just dont connect with people dressed in Reinassance garb, doing things of that time. Its not who I am, its not what I do. I have discovered I truly understand decks with a modern feel, such as the Rohrig, that speaks of what Im going through now. I think I feel the same about the Tarot as the Bible, they were written for the people of their time and sometimes an update can be a good thing (not that I dont believe in the Bible, just certain things Fundalmentalists toss about, like Leviticus, were laws for the time and just dont apply today) :THP

Cerulean	24 Jul 2002
Hello DivinerGuy...my question is which Visconti. Lo Scarabeo's Gold version is done by Assiminov and his Tower/Devil isn't from Scapini. I think it's the Pierpont Morgan Visconti published by U.S. Games that you like? Scapini did the missing cards. Thanks, just want to know which classic you are recommending. Mari H.

catboxer	25 Jul 2002
Mari: You're right. There have been several modern restored versions of the Visconti-Sforza. Scapini did the four replacement pictures for a 1986 edition. I haven't seen that deck, but the replacement pictures are in Kaplan's "Encyclopedia" Vol. II. The restoration work for the Lo Scarabeo Gold 1997 edition was indeed done by A.A. Atanassov, and I assume it is he who painted the four replacements. I very much like his Death and Tower cards because he used a historical model for them rather than improvising off the top of his head. His source is rather obscure, but very appropriate. The Edmond de Rothschild collection, now in the Louvre, contains an uncut sheet of six Italian tarot trumps of the late 15th or early 16th century, found in the binding of an old book. The six cards include a very scary Devil and a very unusual Tower, in that it appears to be a palace and not a tower at all. These six cards also appear to be mates of another uncut sheet of six trumps now housed in the Biblioteque de L'Ecole Nationale Superieure des Beaux-Arts, also in Paris. All twelve are pictured on pps. 128-129 of Kaplan, Vol. I. The Rothschild Tower and Devil are appended. Dave B

catboxer	25 Jul 2002
Here also are Atanassov's treatments of the same subjects, as they appear in the Lo Scarabeo Gold edition of the Visconti-Sforza Deck. CB

purplelady	27 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Sally Gardens Instead of going beyond "masculine" and "feminine" to show that men, too, potentially encompass the full spectrum of HUMAN To have a healthy man/God-centered deck, it would have to act similarly to woman/Goddess-decks and spirituality: Just as women-centered decks broaden the depiction of women beyond nurturing, intuitive, etc., to include strength, intelligence, force of will, leadership, etc., so a good man-centered deck would broaden the depiction of men beyond strength, intelligence, force of will, leadership, etc. to include nurturing, intuitive, etc. Sally Gardens, I used to read mainly with the motherpeace and Love that deck. Now I Love the daughters of the moon. But I don't hate men! I have 2 sons (no daughters) and a husband and am surrounded by men! I think you hit the nail on the head in the above quote. There is one called Tarot of the Crone that I liked A Lot, I'll bet you'd love it too. It's a whole tarot based on the crone , but it's only an online deck , not published yet. Wouldn't it be great if she published this? I fell in love with it when I saw it! http://www.northcoast.com/~ellen/index.html Divinerguy, your original post immediately made me think of the Sacred Circle deck. I Love the way the deck looks and feels- it Bothers me that they just HAD to really change some of the majors. It isn't Just a new Name for a major that basically stays with the same meaning, it is Really a whole new card with a changed meaning . THEN some of the cards stay the same with the same name but are numerically changed! For instance the card titled "The Tower" (and it Is the tower!) is major #15 (normally the devil). As much as I Adore the look of this deck , I haven't really worked with it and Am not sure I even want to Try to re-train my brain to accept these numerically changed majors! If I had to chose something different from the norm, I would actually prefer card # 15 to be something totally new, than a recognizable major numerically out of place along with a few others . ( This doesn't count for strength and justice reversed, at least there you Know that these are the 2 that are reversed, depending on what system you are used to. ) In Sacred Circle I had A LOT of difficulty trying to "place" and figure out exactly what was going on with the majors, and it still doesn't gel! Sorry to go on a rant over this deck. Perhaps if I didn't Love the art and look of the deck so much , I wouldn't feel the need to rant or care about it!

divinerguy	27 Jul 2002
When you mess around with majors, the reader must jump through a lot of hoops. The books that are out there to assist readers assume a certain set of facts. When you remove those underlying facts, it makes that book of little value. The reader is required to know more than one system. Its sort of like learning to play the clarinet. If you change the position of the keys, you have no frame of reference, and must start at the beginning.

purplelady	27 Jul 2002
divinerguy, I played the clarinet when I was in the 5 th grade, and I wasn't very good at It either! ;) .

divinerguy	27 Jul 2002
Purplelady - Both you and Ferris Bueller.

Sally Gardens	27 Jul 2002
Quote: Originally posted by purplelady Sally Gardens, I used to read mainly with the motherpeace and Love that deck. Now I Love the daughters of the moon. But I don't hate men! I have 2 sons (no daughters) and a husband and am surrounded by men! I think you hit the nail on the head in the above quote. There is one called Tarot of the Crone that I liked A Lot, I'll bet you'd love it too. It's a whole tarot based on the crone , but it's only an online deck , not published yet. Wouldn't it be great if she published this? I fell in love with it when I saw it! http://www.northcoast.com/~ellen/index.html Wow, I just skimmed it, but that is cool. Some of the cards are really powerful. Thanks.

LeoLady	05 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy I want quality artwork, not the comic book images that Lo Scarabeo is shoving down our throats. No collage decks, and no more primitive art which tries to hide a lack of artistic talent. If you can't draw, then use photos. Hi Dg, Have to say, I kinda liked the Lo Scarabeo decks, it's different, yes, but I think everyone has something that 'calls' to them when they're interested in Tarot. However I do agree that some publishers and artists do jump on the bandwagon with some pretty awful artwork/decks. I beleive tho, that there is something for everyone, and I for one am very glad that there is such a large range of decks........my bank balance isn't glad tho :D :D :D :D P.S have just ahd a peek at the Crone deck, and It's not my kinda thing, but the little script at the side if the cards are very inspiring and touching..

Jewel	05 Aug 2002
Well I must admit that I gender balance is one of the most important things to me in a deck. Nothing against Goddess centered decks, they just don't work for me at all. As a good taro-holic I like that there are sorts of decks to choose from. If I get one I am not pleased with I simply trade or sell it *shrugs*. Just because I don't personally care for a deck does not mean that someone else won't just love it. Case in point when I got the Victoria Regina from the moment I looked through the cards I knew I would never connect with this deck ... Truthsayer had the same experience with the Pythagorean. Now I have her Pythagorean, she has Victoria Regina and we are both very happy! I have over 80 decks, most traditional in nature so now I like getting some of those with strange arrangements and court titles - I like comparing decks and yes most often I say "now why did they call this tarot?" *LOL*, but hey I am addicted so that is my excuse. Divinerguy, I do understand what you are saying though. It has been a while since a good traditional type deck has come out IMHO. A ton of themed decks, comic book art and collage decks seem to have flooded the market. Personally my favorite deck to read with is the Cosmic Tribe as I can relate to the 21st century concepts, and I like the gender equality and flexibility (3 lovers cards) that it carries. Plus I like Justice at VIII and Strength at XI, but that is me. I think that what is most important is to be honest with oneself in ones own tastes and indulge in the purchasing/trading/acquiring of decks accordingly (whether that be 1 deck or 80). We each have different tarot wants and needs, and that is great! It sure would be boring if we all felt the same way about things. I love the discussions that come out of our differences in opinion. I am by no way offended by your post Divenerguy, you are simply expressing what is important to you and what bugs you. I would also like to see an all male deck that was really well thought out, and completly explored the male archetype. I probably would not buy it as I prefer gender balanced decks, but I would love to browse through it and read the book to gain some new perspectives. Well I am done rambling now.

DarkElectric	05 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Lee Hey, does that mean us men will soon be getting an all-male deck? I've been waiting a long time for that one... :D -- Lee What about the baseball tarot? Isn't that mainly men? And I personally wouldn't mind a Chippendales tarot. The Queens could be represented by drag queens...

truthsayer	06 Aug 2002
i'd also like to see an all male deck. i'd probably buy it for my husband. he often complains to me of the reverse discrimination women treat him with. it really angers him and i don't blame him. discrimination is discrimination. women are now doing to men what men did to women for many years. notice how condescending women are to men even on tv commercials. i remember when it was the opposite. my husband has gotten so sensitive to gender issues that if i ask him to do certain things he wants to know if i'm asking it b/c i need his help or do i expect him to do it b/c he is a man. i'm actually better at home repair than he is. he is much better at housework than i am. even tho he considers himself a part of the male generation that wanted their wives at home, i find that he is far less sexist about housework than younger men i've known. the most important thing is that we respect each others strengths and limitations and thus we don't need to play out traditional male/female roles. i do cook a lot so that a fairly common female role. the difference is he's never pushed it on me. i chose to cook nearly daily. i don't resent it. it's my job. i used to enjoy telling male bashing jokes but when i realized how it hurt my husband i stopped. if it hurts him then i know it demoralizes and hurts other men, too. i don't know if any of you have read robert bly's book "iron john" but it's a wonderful book on the male archetype. a wonderful tarot book for men could be created w/ the inspiration from bly. another book that's might good resource material for a tarot for men is jean shinada bolen's,"the god in everyman". she explores the male archetype thru greek mythology. i have the baseball tarot and tarot of baseball. both have women in it. in the baseball tarot, women are playing the game. .

Minderwiz	06 Aug 2002
I'm not sure I would like an all male deck. I think for the same reason that I wouldn't like an all female deck. I feel that the life force, spirit, or what ever name you give it reflects both male and female and that to ignore or subordinate one is to weaken one's link to that force. We all have some element of the opposite sex in us as well, the big problem with men and paternalism is the failure to connect to our feminine sides (and it can work in the other way for women). We need to balance our masculine and feminine traits to be a 'well rounded person'. The Yin Yang is perhaps a symbol of this. Minderwiz

divinerguy	26 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Violet Gargoyle Divinerguy- Is it possible for you to create your own deck that might fulfill your preferances? Maybe if you feel that something is missing from current decks, then it may be a hint that you can go a different route and create your own deck? Or do you have an artist friend that can help you? Like Salieri to Mozart, I feel that I can see and appreciate greatness, while at the same time, being quite impotent when it comes to doing so of my own accord.

isthmus nekoi	26 Sep 2003
I'll take a male version of the Manara. I'd get both, shuffle the two together and see what sort of readings are produced ^_~

CompassRose	26 Sep 2003
Hey, divinerguy, I could very nearly have written your original post m'self. How nice -- a Crotchety Tarot Corner. As for all-male or all-female decks... perhaps so-called traditional decks include images of women, but I respectfully submit that they are portrayed, for the most part, from a masculine, stereotypically patriarchal viewpoint. Thus almost any of those decks is a "man's" deck, come right down to it. In any case, I've never seen a really "inclusive" deck, and any attempts at same have struck me as silly, self-conscious and trying too hard. I mean, once you get the gender balance, then you need to include all the visible racial minorities, the physically challenged, the fat and the thin, all ages....

divinerguy	26 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by CompassRose Hey, divinerguy, I could very nearly have written your original post m'self. How nice -- a Crotchety Tarot Corner. As for all-male or all-female decks... perhaps so-called traditional decks include images of women, but I respectfully submit that they are portrayed, for the most part, from a masculine, stereotypically patriarchal viewpoint. Thus almost any of those decks is a "man's" deck, come right down to it. I can see your point. However, I don't think that's a majority view. Unlike other human endeavors, Tarot deck creation is well populated by authors of the fairer sex. If feminine centered decks were desired, we'd see far more decks with women portaryed differently and more sales of them. I see the overall portrayal of women in most decks as respectful, albeit within traditionally defined roles. (With obvious exceptions, of course). This begs the question of whether those defined roles in Tarot cards are a bad thing. On that subject, having no experience as a woman, I defer to your superior reasoning.

truthsayer	26 Sep 2003
i don't think think women depicted in traditional roles in decks is a bad thing. imho, all these feminist decks are actually a unconscious movement to explore what and who women are now that we've been freed from traditional roles. if this wasn't a possibility then why else would there be so many of those decks? i don't think as a developed civilization and/or world culture that we've completely worked out what woman's role is now that she has been emancipated in some parts of the world. we must keep in mind that some women are still in traditional roles elsewhere in the world b/c homemaking is required so that one family member can go out to provide for the family. good food for thought.

The Where are all the good Tarot decks? thread was originally posted on 21 Jul 2002 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.