OOP deck Mailing List

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 16 Aug 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Kiama	16 Aug 2002
I've had an inspiration... I was really annoyed tonight, in a good way, because I found out that a specific deck that I have been ignoring for months on end is actually OOP.. I'm gonna go buy it tomorrow! The reason I was annoyed ina a good way, is cuz I realised tat ther are so many of us collectors who miss out on buying OOP/rare decks because we don't realise thy are OOP at all... Then we go back to get that deck when we do realise, and, inevitably, to punish us for our lack of observation, the deck is gone... :( So, I was trying to work out a way that we could all be informed henever a deck goes OOP, and thought about a mailing list, wherby every time a deck goes OOP a message is sent to all members of that mailing list to let them know! I don't know quite how its would work, cuz I am no ech wizard, but tell me guys, would it be useful, and would it work at all? Kiama

wavebreaker	16 Aug 2002
There was a previous thread about OOP decks.

Jeannette	16 Aug 2002
Tarotlady: Thanks for posting the link to the previous thread on the subject of decks going OOP. I made a couple of lengthier posts on the subjects, so I won't spend a lot of time here repeating what I said there. However, I would like to reiterate what is perhaps my primary concern about the reporting of OOP decks, which is: avoiding the "rumor mill" effect. Kiama: While I think your idea is great in principle, and I support it, the biggest problem I see is trying to compile and distribute accurate information on the subject. Where would confirmation of a deck's OOP status come from? Certainly decks are reported as being OOP all the time when, in fact, the decks are not OOP, and may actually still be readily available. In other cases, a deck may silently go OOP without fanfare, and it isn't until many months later that anyone notices. I 've found that on occasion, even my contacts in the publishing industry can't give me accurate information on the print status of a deck. For massmarket decks that are published and distributed by large companies, the "internal communication chain" isn't always the best. Such are the hazards of corporate culture. So, while I agree that it would be very nice to make the information available, my question is: who would guarantee that the information is complete and correct? :confused: -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

Kiama	19 Aug 2002
(Note: I don't seem to be able to log Kiama out on my computer so I'm using her account until I can get something sorted out, I hope she doesn't mind too much - Cleddau Brenin) An idea I've had on this subject would be to get in contact with PR reps. from the various tarot publishing companies, and try to convince them that a news-letter of this type would increase sales in the featured decks, and possibly books, that are close to OOP-ing (As I'm sure it would). Having a free froum for increasing sales should be an attractive idea to any company, hopefully this will also add wieght to an OOP news-letter. As an added incentive I think giving them free publicity, and advertizing space, for up-coming decks and tarot books would help sway them. I can see keeping companies interested and making sure that all the info is reliable being big problems, but if they agree I'll hound them relentlessly :) Obviously, it would be easier to convince the publishing companies that this is a good idea, and worth their attention, if a list of people interested in the news-letter could be compiled, a petition if you will. Don't start sending me your names yet, I still have no idea how to start doing this kind of thing, or even if it would work. I'll post again later if I get enough encourgement and ideas. (not quite) Kiama

Keslynn	19 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama (Note: I don't seem to be able to log Kiama out on my computer so I'm using her account until I can get something sorted out, I hope she doesn't mind too much - Cleddau Brenin) If you go to the main forum page where it displays all the forums and scroll down to the bottom, there is a row of links. Log Out is one of those links. :) Kes

Pollux	19 Aug 2002
One premise: I agree with Jeanette; and I must say that the idea of a Mailing list, with info coming from the companies, sounds a bit too improbable; what I mean is, if companies themselves are not fully aware of the state of decks, and the tarotgarden itself, with all the in/direct connections they have with publishers and companies, cannot guarantee such a service, why should company be interested in a small mailing list, and give us/you info that they probably cannot hold with certainty? And I am afraid they could also exploit the situation for their own interests... ok, I said what I think. ====================== If this idea must take a material form, now... For the Mailing list, I think it is possible to take advatage of Yahoo's/MSN Groups: they are easy to deal with, and provide different services. So far I only participated to an MSN one, for our (= Diana, cayacia and I) DBZ Tarot Deck project. We had free space for FORUMS, we could load pictures, and most importantly it is possible to register a number of members and e-mail them all, and use the group's e-mail address to comunicate (an e-mail sent to the main address is automatically sent to all the members of the group). As for Yahoo's, I think it is basically the same thing. I was subscribed to a Mailing List, but I don't know much about the structure and the rest of it... Anyway, I can make further attempts and research if my experience is not enough. Count on me for this part! :)

jema	19 Aug 2002
does anyone know what happend to that site that had a page with high/low/medium prices on tarot decks? it was such a grand site and a really good resource to check before bidding on e-bay or trading. is there anything like that on-line at all?

Jeannette	19 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama An idea I've had on this subject would be to get in contact with PR reps. from the various tarot publishing companies, and try to convince them that a news-letter of this type would increase sales in the featured decks, and possibly books, that are close to OOP-ing (As I'm sure it would). Having a free froum for increasing sales should be an attractive idea to any company, hopefully this will also add wieght to an OOP news-letter. As an added incentive I think giving them free publicity, and advertizing space, for up-coming decks and tarot books would help sway them. I can see keeping companies interested and making sure that all the info is reliable being big problems, but if they agree I'll hound them relentlessly :) What you say makes sense, but in my experience, it's easier said than done. In saying this, let me emphasize that I mean no disparagement of the major publishers. I've had now had numerous direct dealings with U.S. Games, Llewellyn, Lo Scarabeo, Koenigs Furt, and AGMüller, and those experiences have led me to express nothing but the utmost gratitude and respect to the fine folks who work at all these companies. However, they all seem to be best able to assist with requests that involve a specific, immediate action -- e.g., "can you get this deck for me?," "could you please replace this damaged card?," "what is the balance due on my current account?," etc., etc., etc. Requests for timely "newsletters" or advance P.R. information -- that is, requests that are less-specific or require periodic "updating" -- appear to be more difficult for these companies to address. I think, in part, it's because the nature of the tarot market (and probably many other markets as well) has changed so much over the past few years. I'm not sure that the publishers have quite adapted to what's happening now. Perhaps they're not even entirely aware. It used to be that the largest venue of sales for a publisher's product line was "bricks-and-mortar" stores. Each such "real" store serves a relatively small segment of the potential purchasing public. The publisher sends out a "current catalog" of products to the bricks-and-mortar store, which places its order, receives the product, puts it on the shelves, and sells it. Information about forthcoming products is essentially contained in these catalogs. Some other information about forthcoming products might be found at industry trade shows, but that's about it. In this scenario, customers learn about products simply by showing up at their favorite store, and discovering what new "surprises" have shown up on the shelves. In brief, in this approach, the publisher's market is more "reseller-driven" than "customer-driven," because what little information publishers have about what customers want comes from analyzing what the resellers order. In contrast, the Internet has had a tremendous altering impact on how these publishers can, and perhaps should, approach the issue of marketing. Internet sales of tarot products has increased substantially, just as with so many other product markets. Resellers are no longer restricted to serving only a small, local segment of the market. There is a potential for serving everyone, literally on a global scale. And even those customers who choose not to buy their tarots from Internet merchants may still rely heavily on the Internet for up-to-the-minute information about what's going on -- what's new, what's hot, what's not -- rather than from the merchants themselves, as was previously the case. Thus, the market has become much more "customer-driven." The "channels" through which buyer/seller information flows have changed. Those channels are much more direct and immediate. However, despite this fact, the publishers simply have not taken full advantage of the potential marketing power of the Internet. Why that is, I'm not entirely sure. Certainly their sales have increased without heavy Internet marketing, simply by the nature of the medium itself. So maybe they don't see a need for it. Or maybe they just haven't "caught up" yet, but are working on trying to get there. Maybe they're just not sure yet how to use the Internet most effectively. All of these major publishers have websites. But there's a great variation in how informational those sites are. None of them appears to take much advantage of the potential of keeping customers informed about the current status of their product lines. Announcements of forthcoming releases may be posted (or maybe not), but usually there is minimal information at best. When something drops off a publisher's list, it does so suddenly, quietly, without fanfare. So, where does that leave us -- the tarot enthusiasts, with money in hand? We who are so desperately hungry for the information to guide our purchasing choices? I agree that it's time to somehow convince these wonderful companies that they need to make better use of the Internet, and the resources available there for "getting the word out." But how do we convince them? To be frank, I'd decided a few months ago that I really wanted to begin the process of trying to establish better ties with whoever might handle the P.R. (such as it is) for these companies. It's been a goal of mine to be able to provide more of that type of information on the Tarot Garden website. If nothing else, it would allow me to work with greater efficiency -- I do spend a great deal of my time, on some days, answering all sorts of questions about decks, product lines, etc. And, of course, in some cases I simply don't have the necessary information available, and I really feel as though I should. In any case, it would be nice to have factual and relatively complete information, posted in one place, where I could just simply refer people. I do remain rather skeptical of the possibility of establishing an entirely thorough and accurate resource with information on decks that are coming into, and going out of, print. (Although the former would be a lot easier than the latter.) On the other hand, I do believe that there has to be a better alternative to all of us fumbling around all over the Internet, trying to find some snippet of information we can rely on for each individual deck. It may not be comprehensive and "perfect," but with some careful work and the right industry contacts, it could perhaps be useful and "consolidated." At this point, I'd like to emphasize my very strong feeling that "industry contacts" are the key here. Simply opening up such a resource to reporting by any individual who is enthusiastic enough to participate may be friendly and admirable, but it vastly increases the chances of spreading misinformation and fueling the "rumor mill." For example, speaking for myself, I like to share my opinions and pass along any little interesting informational "nuggets" I come across, just like the next person. But unless I can quote you a specific source who had first-hand access to the information presented, I'd definitely warn you to take my comments with a "grain of salt." So, having rambled on in my usual fashion, I'll conclude by saying that I'm willing to step up my efforts in this area, and "do my part" to see what avenues are available for establishing a better direct line of communication with these publishers. To the extent that I'm able to achieve any sort of successful results, I would naturally incorporate that information into the Tarot Garden website somewhere. But I'll continue to follow this thread with interest, as I'd like to read more about what others have to say about how we might work together to get the best and most accurate information on these sorts of tarot products, and about how to make that information readily available and accessible. -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

Jeannette	19 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by jema does anyone know what happend to that site that had a page with high/low/medium prices on tarot decks? I believe you're referring to the so-called "Cyan Book," which was part of the Almeisan Tarot website. The Almeisan domain is no longer functional (I don't know when or why), and the Cyan Book has not been relocated to any other website that I've been able to find. -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

Kiama	20 Aug 2002
Wow, Jeanette: You are extremely helpful, and I am deeply indebted to you. (This is Kiama btw, not Cleddau Benin her boyfriend!) So, whilst this would be a nice idea, it remains largely impossible... And to make it possible we would first need to convince companies of the importance of why letting the public now when decks/books go OOP would be a good idea... Hmmmmm...... How do we go about doing that then? Kiama

Ladyhawke	20 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama And to make it possible we would first need to convince companies of the importance of why letting the public now when decks/books go OOP would be a good idea... Hmmmmm...... How do we go about doing that then? Massive amounts of spam... :) Compile a list of publishing companies (or at least the biggies) and contact information for the PR department. Specific names of individuals if possible. Then distribute the list widely (like to everyone here *g*) and have everyone write/call/e-mail requesting it..... Ladyhawke

Lee	20 Aug 2002
I think it would be great for us consumers to be able to get more information, but honestly, I think all this kind of effort would accomplish would be to annoy the publishers. -- Lee

Jeannette	20 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Lee I think it would be great for us consumers to be able to get more information, but honestly, I think all this kind of effort would accomplish would be to annoy the publishers. I disagree that it would "annoy" the publishers, as long as the subject was approached with consideration. Certainly a publisher isn't going to react well to demands that they inform so-and-so (or so-and-sos) about decks going out of print. A deck going out-of-print is, by definition, a product which does not, and subsequently will not, generate any significant revenues for the company. Obviously, items which generate little-or-no-income are low down on the "priority list" for companies that produce massmarket products. Which is understandable; they may respect, even love, their business and their customers. But nonetheless, they are still in business to make money. However, I think there's a larger overall issue of making a great deal more reliable information about these companies and their product lines available. That includes information not only on titles going OOP, but also new ones due to be released, and other factors that affect product distribution and availability (for example, the recent withdrawal of Lo Scarabeo's Enchanted Tarot from the market due to title "infringement" concerns, and its pending reissue later this year under the new name Tarot of the Hidden Folk.) I don't think any publisher would object to noting which titles are due to be dropped from their product lines as part of a larger "informative" P.R. campaign. The trick, IMHO, is to find a way to get the companies to provide that information, in a way that best serves the "Internet crowd," and subsequently, the companies themselves. But I do suspect that they wouldn't react well to a thousand separate e-mails, all asking the same question about whether this-or-that deck is going OOP. All they'll do is wonder why the product didn't generate that much interest when it was in print. (Quite honestly, I'd find that a little annoying myself.) Nonetheless, unless they don't see any benefit to the "bottom line" in making more general publication info available in some more accessible fashion to tarot-loving "Netizens" (and if they don't, they're being rather shortsighted, IMHO), I don't know why they'd object. The question is: do they have the ability to do it -- now or in the near future? -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

Lee	21 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Jeannette and/or Lori I disagree that it would "annoy" the publishers, as long as the subject was approached with consideration. Sorry, I should have been more specific. Actually I was referring specifically to the idea of asking them to somehow inform us that decks were going OOP. It seems to me that they're not going to be eager to devote their resources (i.e. manpower) to tell the public, and their competitors, when something is going out of print, since by definition, if it's going out of print, it's not making money for them and they're no longer interested in investing in it. As Jeannette points out, they're in business to make money. In theory I think it would be nice if they did it, but when it comes to actually paying an employee to do it, I think they will balk. -- Lee

Jewel	21 Aug 2002
I noticed in my Llewellyn Calendar that Aeclectic is listed in the back of the calendar as a Resource for Tarot Enthusiasts ... now since Llewellyn has posted this site as a resource, do you think that might be a way of having them contribute this information to our site? If they did we might be able to encourage other publishers to do the same ... just a thought ...

Ladyhawke	21 Aug 2002
I guess maybe I should have been a little more clear in my original suggestion. I meant mail/e-mail/call the publishers with this sort of a note: I'm a Tarot enthusiast, and I was wondering if you had any plans for a newsletter to keep fellow Tarot-holics apprised of information. Many Tarot folk are deck collectors and would *love* information about new decks being released, as well as what decks might be going out of print. Et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum. ;) Ladyhawke

Keslynn	21 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Lee Sorry, I should have been more specific. Actually I was referring specifically to the idea of asking them to somehow inform us that decks were going OOP. It seems to me that they're not going to be eager to devote their resources (i.e. manpower) to tell the public, and their competitors, when something is going out of print, since by definition, if it's going out of print, it's not making money for them and they're no longer interested in investing in it. As Jeannette points out, they're in business to make money. In theory I think it would be nice if they did it, but when it comes to actually paying an employee to do it, I think they will balk. -- Lee Well there might be some benefit to the company if they let people know if decks were going to go out of print. That sort of announcement might cause a tarotholic stampede to buy the deck before they stopped printing it. Perhaps that could be a little incentive for the companies, knowing that they will have hoardes of crazy tarotholics knocking down their door? *snicker* Hmmm. I don't know if there's enough profit from that to cover the counseling the sales reps would need after. :) Kes

Jeannette	21 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Keslynn Well there might be some benefit to the company if they let people know if decks were going to go out of print. That sort of announcement might cause a tarotholic stampede to buy the deck before they stopped printing it. I don't think it works that way. For massmarketed decks produced by the large publishers, they generally run a certain number of copies (say, 5,000), and when their supply gets low, they review the product's sales performance and decide whether to print more. If they decide that the title did not sell well enough to merit a reprint, they simply don't request another run from the printers, and subsequently the deck is OOP. Thus, by definition, when a deck is "going OOP," they've already stopped printing it, and won't be printing anymore. There may be unsold supplies left "on the shelves," but retailers won't be able to restock it once the existing warehouse supplies are depleted, no matter how many people "stampede" to buy it. -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

Keslynn	21 Aug 2002
So that's how it works! Thanks for the info, Jeannette. Now I can definitely see how it would not make sense for publishers to tell which decks are going OOP. However, I still enjoyed envisioning the catastrophic result of a Tarotholic Stampede. ;) :) Kes

purplelady	22 Aug 2002
Decks go out of print- and so do books. But I notice a lot of books (in all catagories , not just tarot) will go out of print, and then years later will have a re-print. Especially those books that were popular. I don't know what exactly will prompt a publisher to issue a re-print of a book? General public interest? Or they think there is a renewed interest? I guess what I'm trying to say is that perhaps, instead of focusing on decks going OOP, we tarot enthusiasts could find a method to Encourage, and let publishing companies know which decks we'd LOVE to get a Re-print of!

Lee	22 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by purplelady perhaps, instead of focusing on decks going OOP, we tarot enthusiasts could find a method to Encourage, and let publishing companies know which decks we'd LOVE to get a Re-print of! I agree wholeheartedly with purplelady. In fact, I'd love to get in touch with the publishers of the Jungian Tarot and ask them to reprint it. Surely there would be a market for it, it's a highly-sought-after deck (and going for prices which are far too high for my wallet!). -- Lee

Pollux	22 Aug 2002
From what I understand of the discussion, the fact that a deck is OOP means nothing to publishers, right? The high prices paid for a OOP deck just go to the store-owners (if they inflated it) or to the people selling the decks, and the publishing companies have no benefit from the fact that a deck is rare to find, highly-sought-after and paid a lot. If this is the case, then WHY don't they re-publish OOP decks? At least those for which there's a certain high demand? The fact they will sell them is almost guaranteed; collectors would not risk their mental sanity when searching for a rarity, and the prices would decrease... While publishers don't have benefits from OOPs, they would surely sell re-prints, and therefore earn. It might be worth it. (Speculating, till someone will tell me the premises are correct)

Jeannette	22 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Pollux From what I understand of the discussion, the fact that a deck is OOP means nothing to publishers, right? I don't think that's entirely true. The fact that there is an increasing number of decks that are coming back into prints suggests that there's someone out there who's paying attention. For what it's worth, Thorson's/Element books has begun to reprint some of the OOP titles previously issued under the Aquarian Press, label, including Clive Barrett's Ancient Egyptian Tarot and Stewart & Gray's Merlin Tarot. They'll also be reissuing Davis and Paterson's Celtic Tarot in November (Although in my mind, the Celtic was only ever barely OOP at best, since we could still get it from our distributor as late as this past May). I'm sure I'm sounding like a broken record here, but the number of tarots that are actually OOP and nearly impossible to come by is lower than you might think. If you get your info on what's OOP from venues such as eBay (where every deck sold these days appears to be "rare" or at least "very HTF" - uh, huh...) or even some of the review sites (where the information available to the reviewer is often incomplete), you're probably hearing about more decks being OOP than is truly the case. The reality is that in the U.S. in particular, we seem to continually harbor the misconception that once a deck is no longer distributed here, then it must not be available anywhere. AGM tarots are a perfect case-in-point. U.S. Games holds the exclusive rights to the North American distribution of all AGM tarot products. So which AGM products are available in North America is solely dependent upon which titles U.S. Games decides to carry at any particular time. Once U.S. Games drops an AGM title from its catalog, all of a sudden there's an upsurge in claims that the title is OOP. But unless AGM drops the title from their catalog, we've always been able to continue ordering them from various European suppliers, albeit unfortunately at higher costs for us (and subsequently, for the customers). Even so, ordering those titles from European suppliers still tends to be less expensive than having to pay the "secondary market" prices that those titles command State-side. Once again, titles typcially (although admittedly not always) go OOP when sales are slow. From the publisher's point-of-view, where's the logic in spending much time and resources on such titles? I must admit, the reaction always baffles me when a deck becomes unavailable, especially ones that we had in stock and that sat on the shelves forever. When word gets around about the inavailability of the title, we suddenly find that we've sold our remaining stock and are subsequently receiving a huge number of requests for it through our search service. I must imagine that a publisher's reaction would be about the same as mine when that happens -- i.e., "why wasn't there this much interest in the title when we had the bloody thing!?" So, I tend to concur with purplelady on this one. Rather than asking publishers to keep customers updated on titles that are going OOP, we all might be better served by seeing if it's possible to convince them to republish titles in which there's been a renewed interest. In this area, we've got evidence that publishers are at least open to the possibility. -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

purplelady	22 Aug 2002
Here's a few decks I would like to see a re-print: Tarot for Cats (who DOESN'T want this?!) Shakespearian Tarot Servants of the Light (same author as Shakespearian) Neuziet tarot Norse Tarot ( there IS going to be a re-print) I am sure that being OOP and difficult to aquire DOES make the decks seem more desirable. Such is human nature! You are right jeannette, we do tend to believe it is OOP when it is no longer distributed in the US.

purplelady	22 Aug 2002
Also, it's not always the same publishing company . Sometimes a different company will reprint something previously published by a different company.

Kiama	23 Aug 2002
But if they re-print decks, us Tarot-holics wil have to buy not only the frst OOP edition, but the second re-printed edition! }) Kiama

Pollux	23 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama But if they re-print decks, us Tarot-holics wil have to buy not only the frst OOP edition, but the second re-printed edition! Is there anyone still doubting she is the queen? *looks around inquisitively* No, I gues not...

Jeannette	23 Aug 2002
Hi, Gang! I just got off the phone with our sales representative from Llewellyn. She tells me that Llewellyn does release PR information to dealers about title availability, which includes not only forthcoming titles, but also information on titles slated to go OOP. I've requested that my name be added to the notification list. Although Llewellyn is the North American distributor for Lo Scarabeo, the information they can provide is only be for Llewellyn-published titles. Nonetheless, if I understand our sale rep correctly, we should be able to get access to publication info on both their tarot cards and their (Llewellyn's own) tarot-related books. I can plan to post that information, if and when I receive it, here on the Aeclectic boards. Or, if anyone will be starting up the proposed OOP/availability board or eList, please feel free to contact me directly (jkr@tarotgarden.com) if there's anything I can contribute in this regard. -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

Pollux	23 Aug 2002
If the Mailing List starts, I can take care of the organisation and the addreses and the stuff. I'll take up a group asap. Let me know.

The OOP deck Mailing List thread was originally posted on 16 Aug 2002 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.