How many Marseilles decks are there?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 10 Oct 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Page	10 Oct 2002
Hi I'm new to this part of the forum and I would like to know how many different types of Marseilles decks are there apart from Tarot de Marseille = Camoin Tarot de Marseille Convos Le Nouveau Tarot de Marseille = Colette Silvestre-Haeberle Thanks in advance! :* AG

ihcoyc	10 Oct 2002
I'm not sure if it's even possible to keep count, since the Marseilles designs are out of copyright and about as generic as you can get. Some others I know of are: Grimaud Marseilles (For years, this was the only one in print, or at least far easier to find than others, and as such it more or less represents a "default" Marseilles) Fournier Marseilles (the Spanish Marseilles; recoloured). There seems to be a recoloured Marseilles style deck included in a "Beginner's Tarot" box set I have seen. Never seen this deck outside that box. Ancient Tarot of Marseilles (the Scarabeo reproduction of Convers; my understanding is that the Convers Marseilles deck is the old original which modern Marseilles decks reproduce.) There is also a French reproduction of Convers by Camoin. Ancient Tarot of Bologna (a Lo Scarabeo reproduction of an Italian Marseilles clone, with French card names) According to a promo card in a deck, Lo Scarabeo has its own Tarot of Marseilles; I've never seen it. Tarot Classic (the Schaffhouse near-Marseilles deck) Angel Tarot (a Japanese near-Marseilles deck in the majors, with Spanish-style pips) Once you get into near-Marseilles decks, the field widens and all sorts of decks could be considered close enough to count.

Diana	10 Oct 2002
edited

Page	10 Oct 2002
Thanks Ihcoyc I found your info very useful!!!! now I just have to surf for the scans of those decks that you mentioned. :) Diana I hope this info helps I found it on http://www.tarotgarden.com http://www.tarotgarden.com/database/dbsearchengine.php?search_type=blob&pageenter=0 Thanks :) AG

Diana	10 Oct 2002
edited

MeeWah	10 Oct 2002
Acidguru: Thank ye for posting this thread!! I have been looking for information on the Marseilles decks to determine which one(s) I should go for (I am relatively ignorant about the Marseilles & was shocked to discover there are many versions). ihcoyc & Diana: Thanks to ye too for your comments!

jmd	10 Oct 2002
The Tarot Numérologique is the deck I cut up for a poster a number of years ago (before colour photocopying was cheaper). The Lo Scarabeo Tarot s de Marseille is the 'Burdel' version of 1751 with, unfortunately, titling modifications (& numbering of the Fool as zero). Héron, in France, also publishes the Conver deck. There are also Dodal, Vieville (though this is not quite a Marseilles) and Noblet Marseilles decks presumably in print... as well as probably others as yet unlisted here. In addition to the Schaffhouse models, there are also very similar Spanish and Italian decks. Has as been mentioned before, the Conver remains the 'standard' of the Marseilles, and is available from the publishing houses of Héron, LoScarabeo and Camoin.

Zhritza	11 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by ihcoyc Ancient Tarot of Bologna (a Lo Scarabeo reproduction of an Italian Marseilles clone, with French card names) This is considered a Marseilles clone? Just a sec here... ...Holy buckets, I guess it is. I have a Marseilles deck! That takes a *bit* of the edge off of my apparent loss of my mother's 30-year-old Marseilles from Paris. But not by much. :rolleyes:

felicityk	29 May 2003
I am resurresting this thread because I am trying to put together a web page (a la my Visconti page) that shows all the Marseilles decks currently available. For simplicity's sake, I'm limiting myself to those with "Marseilles" in the title (except the Nouveau Tarot de Marseille, since it is not done in "woodcut" style and owes more to Wirth). Here is what I have so far, and if anyone can add to this or fill in missing information I would appreciate your help. I am dividing this up into Reproduction (copies of original cards, showing wear), Modern, and Restored (attempting to restore lost symbolism). Reproductions Lo Scarabeo - Ancient Tarot of Marseilles (Conver) Heron - Tarot de Marseille (Conver) Piatnik - Tarot de Marseille (Krebs) Il Meneghello - Swiss Tarot of Marseilles (Proche) Modern: Grimaud - I have seen both Tarot de Marseille and Ancien Tarot de Marseille, are they the same? Also, is France Cartes the same as Grimaud? AGMuller - 3 decks - Tarot de Marseille, Tarot de Marseille Convos, and Carta Mundi Tarot de Marseille Lo Scarabeo - Tarot of Marseilles (Burdel) Il Meneghello - Classic Tarot of Marseilles US Games - Tarot of Marseilles Fournier - Le Tarot de Marseille Restored Caomin - Tarot de Marseille (Camoin/Jodorowsky) Mortagne - Veritable Tarot de Marseille (Hadar) What publisher is the "Dodal" mentioned earlier in this thread? Felicity

Kiama	29 May 2003
I'd also like to ask a question... Which Marseilles deck is the most historically accurate? Kiama

Logiatrix	29 May 2003
Kiama, My guess is the Conver; it is a reproduction of the actual deck from that time, now in a museum. I think I read somewhere in here that there is another repro like the Conver, but I don't remember which one it is...

Jeannette	29 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by felicityk [b] I am resurresting this thread because I am trying to put together a web page (a la my Visconti page) that shows all the Marseilles decks currently available. For simplicity's sake, I'm limiting myself to those with "Marseilles" in the title (except the Nouveau Tarot de Marseille, since it is not done in "woodcut" style and owes more to Wirth). Here is what I have so far, and if anyone can add to this or fill in missing information I would appreciate your help. How 'bout this one, published by some company called "B.A.L." in 1988 in New Zealand: http://www.tarotgarden.com/database/dbsearchengine.php?view_title=b.a.l. This one apparently falls into the "modern" group. -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

Rusty Neon	29 May 2003
Some others: http://www.dixdecoeur.com/pages/vente/liste-tarot.htm Tarot de Nostradamus Le Nouveau Tarot de Marseille Le Tarot Flamand Gran Esoterico Besançon ancien Tarot espagnol (Spanish Tarot) The various LS historical decks Starter Arista Tarot de Marseille - Marteau (Éditions Dusserre)

felicityk	30 May 2003
Thanks, Jeannette and Rusty. As I mentioned before I am only going to use decks with Marseille in the title; I think this would be a never-ending project otherwise. Jeanette, do you (or anyone else) have a scan of the BAL box? Does anyone have scans of cards from the Éditions Dusserre (Marteau) edition? Another deck I found at the link Rusty provided was what appears to be a book and deck set by Michèle V. Chatellier. Does anyone know the publisher or have scans from this deck? I hope to have a page up by the end of the weekend, and I will keep adding to it if more decks turn up. Felicity

jmd	30 May 2003
Some of the decks mentioned deviate too much, in my opinion, from Marseilles renditions (such as the Spanish Gran Esoterico - though I think it is highly worth getting!). Other decks - such as the Major Arcana only Tarot de la Félicité (check also Tarot Garden's database for some images) are so Marseilles that the exclusion of the inclusion of 'Marseille(s)' in its name only reflects that the card images and sequence isn't solely viewed as a 'Marseille' prerogative. This would be more evident to local sensibilities in France than to us in other parts of the world. It would be wonderful to include a site with the various Marseilles decks - but if major ones such as the Félicité, the Noblet or the Dodal are omitted because their publishing omits the word 'Marseilles', key decks would be missing.

felicityk	30 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jmd It would be wonderful to include a site with the various Marseilles decks - but if major ones such as the Félicité , the Noblet or the Dodal are omitted because their publishing omits the word 'Marseilles', key decks would be missing. Oh well, I will have to leave it to someone else to create that site, then. I simply don't have the time to devote to a comprehensive site. Let me instead point people to a site I came across in my searches: http://membres.lycos.fr/tarobat/mesjeux/Jeux.htm It's in French, but it does feature pictures from many of the available Marseilles-style decks. Felicity

felicityk	31 May 2003
Well, I put up what I had anyway, even if it's not ideal. I hope it will be a decent resource for people who want to buy a Marseilles deck but are baffled by the sheer number of choices out there. I do mention and give links to other decks as well. My main Tarot page is at: http://home.attbi.com/~felicityk/tarot/ From there you can go to my Visconti page, my Marseilles page, and my collection of modern decks. Felicity

Diana	31 May 2003
felicityk: Your website is a wonderful resource for people. And extremely pleasant for the eyes. I have bookmarked it and will let my friends know of it. Thank you. (Off topic here: Like your brother Josh, I am a great Dragonball Z fan. To me it remains one of the best animes ever made. I've watched every episode at least 4 times! and read all the books too.)

jmd	31 May 2003
What a wonderful resource indeed! Thank-you! :):):)

felicityk	31 May 2003
I am just glad to be able to put my organizational skills to good use. :) And Diana, it didn't occur to me that people would have much interest in the personal side of my website, but there it is. My brother is indeed a Dragonball Z fan. I don't know if his interests extend to other anime, but he does play a lot of video games, and many of them are anime-inspired. Felicity

Cerulean	01 Jun 2003
Now I'm getting my browser busy. Hopefully we'll someday see the Hader version available. Mari H. P.S. I've heard the patterns of the Beascon and Paris Tarots are really unusual variants. The Beascon is mentioned near the end in the Papus text as an 'important' version, but I didn't buy that book, so I wasn't certain what Papus saw in that version.

Rusty Neon	01 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Mari_Hoshizaki Hopefully we'll someday see the Hader version available. At a store today, I noticed that one of the Batons pip cards (8 or 9 of Batons, I think) in the Hadar deck has a crown on each lateral side of the card. I was wondering where Hadar came up with that. There sure isn't any hint of a crown in the corresponding card in the TdM Conver 1760 deck.

Diana	01 Jun 2003
I have been meaning to write to Mr. Hadar for quite some time now asking him some questions about his deck. Rusty Neon: I will include your question in my list. I will write to him mid-June, so if you have any more questions, please let me know. He is a very busy man, but I feel pretty confident that he will reply as soon as he has time. He is too courteous not to.

felicityk	01 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Mari_Hoshizaki P.S. I've heard the patterns of the Beascon and Paris Tarots are really unusual variants. The Beascon is mentioned near the end in the Papus text as an 'important' version, but I didn't buy that book, so I wasn't certain what Papus saw in that version. Il Meneghello's Swiss Tarot of Marseille (Tarocco di Marsiglia Svizzero) is very close to the Besançon in style, but still has the Pope and Popess while Besançon replaces them with Juno and Jupiter (and is thus the ancestor of the 1JJ Swiss deck). Perhaps that's why Papus saw it as important? The Paris Tarot is, as I understand it, the earliest complete deck that has been found, and it supports the Marseilles ordering of the Trumps. http://it.geocities.com/a_pollett/cards59.htm Felicity

Cerulean	04 Jul 2003
1. I noticed on Felicity's site (great variety, THANKS!), the coloring of the cards (click on the box and a link comes up of four cards) appears to vary so much. I favored the Il Menghello version at first glance. I'm waiting on the Hader, I check their site regularly... For those who have one or two of these decks, which coloring or line style do you favor? The restored, the faded, other variants? 2. I actually like the design lines of one Marseilles at the lower leftmost corner--I think it's actually said to be by Claude Burdel. I dislike the colors though in the full-size, I prefer the softer tinting in the background as it appears in the Comparative Tarot. The Burdel as it appears fullsize: http://www.astroamerica.com/t-marse2.html The Burdell in Comparative Tarot: http://www.astroamerica.com/t-comp.html 3. Someone mentioned Ancient Tarots of Bologna before: its a TdM variant that I have because the design and coloring seem kind of different: http://www.trigono.com/tarots/TDI009-ancient-tarots-of-bologna.htm 4. Ancient Tarots of Bologna actually appeared as inserts in the Tarot of the Third Millenium as well and the coloring actually fit in the design scheme of that odd deck. http://www.learntarot.com/tmdesc.htm I hope this is of interest or adds sites you can explore different Marseilles variations. Trigono has quite a few decks that also seem available at Alidastore and Tarotgarden.com.

Little Baron	18 Jul 2003
Felicityk Thanks for the link to your site. have been looking for such a link to compare the decks. I like the Tarocco di Marsiglia Svizzero. I bet that now I have seen it, I won't be able to get my hands on one. Is it in print? Yaboot

Little Baron	18 Jul 2003
The eyes on that strength card are ... haunting and amazing to say the least. I think this is the point when you can say that an image has started a conversation. yaboot

felicityk	19 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Yaboot001 I like the Tarocco di Marsiglia Svizzero. I bet that now I have seen it, I won't be able to get my hands on one. Is it in print? I've seen it for sale at Alida. They are in Italy but they ship quickly and for a reasonable price. Go to: http://www.alidastore.com/indexen.html Then click on "Tarocchi e Cartomanzie 9" in the left-hand frame. Felicity

Little Baron	20 Jul 2003
Thanks FelicityK yaboot

Ross G Caldwell	21 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Mari_Hoshizaki P.S. I've heard the patterns of the Beascon and Paris Tarots are really unusual variants. The Beascon is mentioned near the end in the Papus text as an 'important' version, but I didn't buy that book, so I wasn't certain what Papus saw in that version. The Besançon is the deck that Court de Gébelin described in "Monde Primitif." The (presumed) Comte de Mellet, strangely, used a normal TdM, in the same book. The Besançon is still available, I think, for around 35 Euros here, by special order. I haven't got it yet, but I've been meaning to. Ross

scorpio	21 Jul 2003
awhile ago i started a thread looking to identify a card i had seen advertising a tarot class, a deck that i suspected was a marseilles type. http://www.learntarot.com/bgdesc.htm has a pic of the knight of swords from the ancients tarot of bologna and it is almost exactly the same as the knight in this card, but the colours are different and the hat and head of the knight is smaller. in the deck i'm seeking, the "flower" in the right hand corner was the same powder blue as in the heron marseilles, but i found the heron court pics in the french tarot link and the horse in that knight pic doesn't have the hood over the horse head so it isn't that marseilles, and the bologna pic the knights head reaches the top of the card and it doesn't in the knight i'm seeking. this card was a cream beige colour with the blue "flower" and if anyone knows what marseilles this is please help! i've combed all these threads on the marseilles but i can't find the match, thanks for any assistance and to felicity for her site that helped me sort the different decks.

Little Baron	21 Jul 2003
Thaks for the link Scorpio. I think that if i buy a Marcielles deck then I will probably go for one like that; with the washier colours, rather than the stark. Yaboot

Cerulean	21 Jul 2003
if it has a limited palette of blues and greens and golds, as in the Tarocco di Gumppenberg 1830-1840. (See di Gumppenberg thread) But since you said power blue, the Oswald Wirth has bright colored pips, maybe powder blue. www.tarot.com

MystiqueMoonlight	24 Jul 2003
I'm going to throw a wobbly one in here :) Today I received my Marseilles Deck. Each card is made of .....*drum roll*......plastic. Yes that's right....plastic. When I mentioned this to my sister her reaction was "...plastic!?, eeww I dunno that kinda makes them less spiritual don't you think?" My reply was that they are only cards with images on them. The "essence" if you will is provided by the user. Besides no trees had to die to produce them and they will last so long. The cards are regular sized and are typical Marseilles cards as in the Conver version I think. The colours are strong and distinct. They really are quite lovely.... So there you have it, another Marseilles deck is floating around in the market :)

Hedera	24 Jul 2003
Quote: Today I received my Marseilles Deck. Each card is made of .....*drum roll*......plastic. Well, that sounds, er.... intriguing! :D Which Marseille is that? And where did you get it??

Emily	24 Jul 2003
It does sound interesting, Do they shuffle as well as a cardboard deck? Will you have to take extra care of them, like to make sure the designs don't fade or get scratched - I'd have nothing against a plastic deck just as long as the images didn't suffer for it :)

raeanne	24 Jul 2003
Hi all, Years and years ago when I was a kid, my folks played the card game Bridge a lot. The cards of choice were Kem Playing Cards. These were the top of the line in playing card quality. They were plastic. These are the type of playing cards I buy for regular card games because they really do last for a long, long time. You can even wash them. The first time you shuffle them you will probably play "52 card pick-up" because they have a very slick feel to them. But after a couple of shuffles, they are wonderful! There are no more worries about bent or splitting corners. If anything gets spilled on them you can just wash it off. I've always thought it would be great to have a Tarot deck made the way these cards are made. Please let me know where I can buy this plastic Tarot deck!

MystiqueMoonlight	24 Jul 2003
Well I bought them off ebay. The lady is in Belgium or is it Bulgaria? They are new not a used deck. In her ad on ebay she stated they were a "rare" deck of plastic cards, but I have noticed there is another set on there from her so I'd say she has access to the production of them. They are really nice to handle. I really don't think the images will scratch (I've tried). They handle really well, better than some other decks actually. They are flexible and I think because they are printed on plastic it kind of brings out the colour more vibrantly. If you like I will send her an email to ask if in fact she does has access to these plastic decks.

Hedera	24 Jul 2003
Quote: I like! I like! Or just post the link to the auction, and the exact name of the deck, so we can start hunting them down ourselves.... ;)

scorpio	26 Jul 2003
thanks for your suggestion Mari_H i thought the Di Gumppenberg was a possibility too until i saw the court cards in your thread on this deck and it's not the one i'm looking for and the colours were pastel so the wirth is out too. the lady who makes the newsletter said that the card came from a computer program that has symbols for tarot cards and that it was from the italian tarot (the manager from the store relayed this info to me) but it isn't the ancient italian tarot so i'm stumped. i hope to catch some pics of the court cards from the suizzero deck and if it isn't that one i'm really stumped. this knight really struck a chord and i loved the colours.

The How many Marseilles decks are there? thread was originally posted on 10 Oct 2002 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.