Marseilles Deck

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 17 Oct 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

neptune	17 Oct 2002
I am new to the tarot and I just got the Marseille deck. Was this a good choice? Do these types of decks stand out from other kinds? I know they're not so visually appealing......

jmd	17 Oct 2002
An Excellent Choice!!! I strongly recommend you read through the 'Historic and Iconographic Tarot' threads. There is a thread there for each of the Major Arcana, and a little more. And a very warm welcome to Aeclectic... :)

Rhiannon	17 Oct 2002
LOL, exuberant, aren't you? LOL I need to read through those threads as well... I just got the Stained Glass tarot from Pollux. So, you see neptune, a Marseilles tarot can be pretty! R :)

ChrisTheObscure	17 Oct 2002
I love the Marseilles deck I recently bought - so much so that I've begun using it more than any of my other decks. I wouldn't call the artwork "less visually appealing", though I thought that at first. I think, "simplified" is a better word for it. With the Marseilles deck, I feel as if the cards are being honest and open with me. Some of the decks that are more heavily reliant on symbolism, give me a headache just trying to dissect them on each level. Besides, I do like the fact that I'm looking at a reproduction of a deck that's been around for centuries. It makes me feel more connected to those tarot readers gone before me :) Chris

ihcoyc	17 Oct 2002
I wouldn't say the Marseilles deck is "simplified," either. That more or less assumes that there used to be a more complicated and symbolic tarot deck that was somehow stripped down to create the Marseilles deck. This is backwards. In fact, later and more "complex" decks typically start from Marseilles or one of its descendants, and add symbols according to their creators' theories, imaginings, and predilections. Of course, the early handmade cards were more elaborate. But most did not contain more symbolism, and the ones that did had it included by their individual artists' interpretations rather than as a part of an esoteric master plan. The great advantage of a Marseilles deck is that it stands at the root of just about all other esoteric tarot decks and their makers' theories. Other more heavily laden decks tend to lock you in to a single school of thought. They incorporate those ideas into the card designs. Your deck is compatible with all the books and all the theories.

Zhritza	18 Oct 2002
and neptune, as you may already have guessed, there are plenty of Marseilles adherents around here to guide you through the ridiculously impossible task of interpreting cards with no imagery on them. I'm kidding, I like most of the Marseilles decks I have seen. And they are very esoteric-feeling and therefore evocative. And they give your subconscious free rein in many ways. It's an excellent choice indeed, especially if you want to be "old-school." ;)

truthsayer	18 Oct 2002
sorry but i don't think i can be converted to the marseille style deck. i always get hooked into trying to remember numerology and i hate dealing w/ numbers. thus making marseille decks an unpleasant experience. i have 3 such decks so i haven't given up but i seldom get to them i have so many fully imaged decks that are primary and secondary colors. ;) }) i like lots of color and a deck w/ only primary colors doesn't capture my attention. can someone tell me some positive things about the marseilles deck that might encourage me to try harder to become familiar w/ it? i really don't like the idea of writing these decks off. i figure they've been around for centuries for some reason.

Phoenix	18 Oct 2002
Ya know, I thought the same thing Truth, but now I find myself liking them a lot more. I will be getting one next week(the Grimaud deck) so I will let you know what I think.

jmd	18 Oct 2002
With the Major Arcana, I suppose that if one has a particular preference for particular kind of artwork which hasn't been used (yet) on a Marseilles style deck, then I cannot add much to the discussion (but do check the threads in the Historical and Iconographic section, for which I have recently posted a Table of Contents). With regards to the pips and numerology, I suggest it isn't a matter of remembering, but of progressively developing an understanding of what each numeral means. On the other hand, even this isn't really needed, for each pip card, though not illustrated with scenes, is illustrated and adorned with various depictions, each of which certainly permit the Imaginative faculty opening to images and Inspiration beyond the drawn items. Another thread you may be interested in looking at, which specifically deals with this question, is Non-illustrated pips in Using Tarot Cards.

ihcoyc	18 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer can someone tell me some positive things about the marseilles deck that might encourage me to try harder to become familiar w/ it? i really don't like the idea of writing these decks off. i figure they've been around for centuries for some reason. They've been around for centuries more or less because the tarot game has been around a lot longer than (at least the current traditions of) tarot divination. The Marseilles deck and similar decks can be used to play card games. Waite-Smith, Thoth, and their descendants can be used only for divination. I'll be perfectly honest: though I'm a devotee of traditional decks, I must admit that there are a lot more people who learned tarot on esoteric and fully illustrated decks. I learned that way too. It is a lot easier to keep divinatory meanings in mind that way: esoteric tarots go back to Etteilla, who designed the first such deck with divinatory meanings printed on the cards. Eventually, I at least found the esoteric and gimmick decks confining. The opinions of their makers were too strongly impressed on the cards themselves. They seemed a step away from the (actually rather culturally specific) "universality" of the original images. There were aesthetic reasons for this as well. Using a traditional deck designed in the nineteenth century --- or in the seventeenth --- you feel connected to the past. These cards were not sacred icons. They were rather homely artifacts, in fact. There seems more power, rather than less, in a deck that was used on Saturday night by Papa in an evening of cards, wine, and gambling; and on Sunday afternoon by Marguerite to inquire as to the intentions of the young man she met after church. More power in such a deck, even if it was handled by many hands and never ever wrapped in silk. You can choose a deck that stands in that tradition. Or you can choose the descendants of a deck made for eccentric Britons who got their kicks dressing up like Anubis and Harpocrates. ;) I've made my choice.

Phoenix	18 Oct 2002
jmd- What would you suggest to be the best Marseille deck, or at least one that is pretty close to the original one? Thanks!

jmd	19 Oct 2002
I would recommend the Camoin Marseilles without hesitation - but, as it is a modern one (1998), and you ask for an 'original', I would personally consider the Conver (of course, earlier decks exist, but this 1760 version has become, to a very real degree, the standard). Please do read and contribute to the threads in the Historical and Iconographic Tarot Forum - where images from other very early decks are also found. Though I agree with much that ihcoyc write in many threads, I do not agree that the Major Arcana were designed for a game - even though these were undoubtedly later put to this use. To my knowledge, there are no historical records as to how the deck was used in its early days, but contextual socio-historic evidence certainly does not point is such direction. For those with certain eyes - and consistent with both mediaeval and renaissance sight - the Marseilles contains a plethora of 'esoteric' symbolism, certainly predating Alliette (Eteilla). Of course, early written discourse on Tarot's esoteric symbolism comes later than the deck. I now await a deluge of responses!

Lee	19 Oct 2002
Putting all esoteric considerations aside and focusing on the merely esthetic, I must say that I regard the Grimaud Marseilles (which was my first Marseilles deck) to be singularly unattractive. The use of color and the way the lines are drawn really turn me off. I find the Camoin (which I've ordered and am still waiting for) and the Fournier (which is somewhat unconventional due to its use of color but in every other way is consistent with the Grimaud standard) to be much easier on the eyes. -- Lee

truthsayer	19 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Lee Putting all esoteric considerations aside and focusing on the merely esthetic, I must say that I regard the Grimaud Marseilles (which was my first Marseilles deck) to be singularly unattractive. The use of color and the way the lines are drawn really turn me off. I find the Camoin (which I've ordered and am still waiting for) and the Fournier (which is somewhat unconventional due to its use of color but in every other way is consistent with the Grimaud standard) to be much easier on the eyes. -- Lee i think lee has brought up something that impacts my interests in reading a marseilles deck--i find most of them ugly. i have the visconti gold, the renaissance and minchiate by brian williams. even tho their colors are far better than the grimaud, i just can't get into them. maybe i need to stop procratinating and do a spread instead of just looking at them. that way i could really see how well they would work. i can't say that their history makes me feel any greater connection but maybe connection is one of those things that develops w/ use and isn't like "love at 1st sight". i've also thought about getting the medieval scapini. are there any other attractive colorful marseille style decks? i'll check out the camoin and fournier.

Zhritza	19 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer i've also thought about getting the medieval scapini. I do recommend the Scapini for sheer attractiveness. The caveat is that it has a lot of extra imagery and symbolism that can be baffling. The LWB (although written by Stuart Kaplan, not Luigi Scapini) does explain the various items and symbols thoroughly. Uh... the other thing (I was ever contrary) is that it's very reminiscent of the Visconti in certain ways... the Magician even has the same hat...

ihcoyc	19 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by jmd Though I agree with much that ihcoyc write in many threads, I do not agree that the Major Arcana were designed for a game - even though these were undoubtedly later put to this use. I'm not sure I meant to say that the Major Arcana were designed for a game. At this stage it is (perhaps fortunately) hard to pinpoint exactly what purpose the collection was meant to serve, or what kinds of notional content the collection of these particular images, and their sequence, was meant to convey. They were, however, used in a game, and it was as a game that the collection of images, their numbers and their sequence survived. Without the game, we'd be stuck wondering what these extra cards were doing in a small number of surviving early decks of playing cards. We wouldn't even know what order they went into from the early painted cards alone. To my way of thinking, this homely use as part of a folk tradition strikes me as confirming the power, the validity, the authenticity of the cards much more than reams of highfalutin' talk about Thoth and Hermes Trismestigus. This was the point I was trying to make.

ihcoyc	19 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer are there any other attractive colorful marseille style decks? This depends on how broadly you would be willing to consider "Marseilles style" extending. You might want to look at some of the Italian soprafino decks. I find the Ancient Italian Tarots and the Ancient Tarots of Lombardy quite attractive. The Ancient Italian Tarots, specifically, are fairly consistent with Marseilles symbolism while being somewhat more artfully made. The Lombardy is very low key, but quite attractive to my eyes. The Tarot of the Master wanders away from Marseilles symbolism somewhat more broadly, but it is quite attractive.

Myrrha	19 Oct 2002
When I look at Marseilles images I feel like I am looking right at the archetype, unlike modern decks where I always feel I am looking at a person's *interpretation* of the archetype. Of course the Marseilles images are also interpretations of something that exists on another level, but they feel more "pure" somehow. I don't have a Marsielles deck yet, but feel the time is near. The Scarabeo reproduction "ancient tarot of Marseilles" is nice because the blocks of color overlap the lines softening the look. What I really wish is that there was a black and white Conver available that I could color in myself. -Myrrha

truthsayer	19 Oct 2002
i can't believe i've studied tarot for so many years and never had an epiphany until now about the differences and similarities b/t marseilles decks and the smith/waite deck and thoth. it's like i've been reading spanish all my life but only now understood what i've read. maybe bad example but hopefully close enough to get my meaning across. i've primarily seen the marseille as not having fully illustrated minors and that it's far older than the ws and the thoth. i don't think it really hit me until someone's comment about marseille actually being the original tarot and others were done by ppl who were making airs about being mystics. it does put the whole thing in an entirely different light for me. so i think i'll drag my tarot encyclopedia out and study this new information. stuff like this is why i love tarot so much! the learning never stops. i checked out some scans of various marseille style decks. i found that i kinda like the tarot of the master. maybe the lombardy and the ancient italian. i'll get out my renaissance, visconti sforza and minchiate. perhaps i'll have more epiphanies. i do really love fully imaged decks and i'm glad the ws and thoth came about b/c it brought a new era into tarot. i love the colors and variety of newer decks. but i do have a deep appreciation of the value of history and where we came from. i didn't learn about the marseilles existence until a few ago b/c i've been unexposed to tarot variety until i got the internet. the significance of more historical decks and what the changes that pamela colman smith made to it meant in the evolution of tarot. kinda of like what changing from walking to horse then horse to automobile... this just didn't occur to me until tonight.so off on another tarot adventure i go!

faunabay	20 Oct 2002
truth, I got the Camion in a trade (from Jewel :) ) and I have to say I absolutely love it. I wanted a Marseilles deck but the Grimaud just did nothing for me. The Camion and the Fournier (sp?) looked more appealing though. So when Jewel offered the Camion I jumped on it. I heartily recommend it if you're in the least interested in Marseilles decks. You still get the flavor of the Marseilles but you have more color !!! I really like it!!

Keslynn	20 Oct 2002
I have been eyeing the Fournier because I like the bright coloring. But when I searched on Amazon for it, I couldn't find anything. Nor could I find it on Tarot Garden. Anyone have any ideas where I could obtain a copy? Is it OOP? :) Kes

Lee	20 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Keslynn I have been eyeing the Fournier because I like the bright coloring. But when I searched on Amazon for it, I couldn't find anything. Nor could I find it on Tarot Garden. Anyone have any ideas where I could obtain a copy? Is it OOP? Hi Kes, the Fournier Marseille is available from Alida, an Italian store. Do a search for "fournier marseille" and you'll see it. It costs 12.90 Euro, which is about $13.00, which is pretty reasonable. Be aware that the cards are a little smaller than usual, approx. 4-1/4 by 2-1/4. I've ordered two or three times from Alida and have had nothing but great experiences with them. -- Lee :)

Keslynn	20 Oct 2002
Thanks, Lee! And that size sounds perfect as I have small hands. :) Kes

truthsayer	21 Oct 2002
i did do some research today by reading up on reviews at tarot passages. fournier's and camoin did look appealing. i even went to the camoin website. i'm a bit confused about the soprafino also being called the classical tarot. since i like pen and ink drawings, i think the decks that have more complex drawing and more coloration would be more interesting and likable to me. before i make any commitments to any deck purchase, i want to test my decks w/ pip minors in more depth to see if i can make the adjustment. plus i want to do some reading in my tarot encyclopedia. i read somewhere a suggestion that gail fairfield's book "everyday tarot" the redo of "choice centered tarot" was a good book to use when learning to read w/ marseille style decks. so i also would like to look over this book again. i'm not sure why but i'm feeling much more cautious w/ purchasing a marseille deck than i ever had one w/ imaged minors.

Lee	02 Nov 2002
Now that I've (finally!) received my Camoin Marseilles, I just had to post here and say how much I LOVE it. It looks even better in person than in scans. The fact that it uses so many more colors than the Grimaud (there's a light and and dark blue, a light and a dark green, etc.) makes it not only more attractive, but, along with the white backgrounds, gives it a surprising calmness and peacefulness. The colors are also rich and bright (especially the red) and altogether a pleasure to look at. It's also fun to search through the deck for the rare small areas of purple. The lines retain the same general style of the Grimaud, but lack the ugly coarseness of that deck. I especially like the Court cards, which, in their abstract craziness, resemble modern playing card Courts. I must say, however, that while I understand the method that the authors used to arrive at the pictures (they claim they compared all existing Marseilles decks to both uncover lost symbolism and to eliminate symbolism which was found to have been "added" by later hands), I remain somewhat skeptical that this process, scientifically applied, would have led to such odd details as the stars on the canopy of the Chariot, or the snakes at the foot of Temperance, or the tail on one of the children in the Sun. It seems to me much more likely that these details were perhaps things which could be seen if one squinted at certain squiggly lines on certain decks, and the authors used their imaginations to flesh these lines out into images whose authenticity is questionable. However, there are many people (several of them members of this forum) who are much more knowledgeable about these things than I am, and I'd be happy to be corrected on this point. Also, if I understand the LWB correctly, the authors' goal was to recreate the "original" Marseilles. But everything I've read points to the Marseilles iconography as having gradually evolved over a long period of time, so that it becomes meaningless to talk about the "original" Marseilles. Where does one draw the line and say that this deck at a certain point in the evolution is a true Marseilles, while that deck which comes right before it in the evolutionary chain is not a true Marseilles? Well, those are my ramblings. From an esthetic point of view I think this is by far the best Marseilles, and right now it's my favorite Tarot deck. -- Lee

ihcoyc	02 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer i'm a bit confused about the soprafino also being called the classical tarot. My understanding is that "soprafino" decks were top-drawer engraved Italian decks from a number of publishers. The best known of these is the one made by Carlo Della Rocca. That deck is availabe in two different ways from Lo Scarabeo: as the "Classical Tarot," a recoloured reprint of his original deck, and as the "Ancient Italian Tarot," a reproduction of a deck based on his from later in the nineteenth century. I prefer the Ancient Italian over the Classical Tarot. The Ancient Italian court cards are more attractive than the Classical Tarot. Also, the Classical Tarot has some rather odd keywords printed on the side that the Ancient Italian deck lacks. Neither deck is a true Marseilles deck, but both decks seem to be based on Marseilles symbolism. Bear in mind that neither of these decks is the same as the Tarot Classic deck, a Swiss deck based on a Burdel Marseilles style deck from the eighteenth century. The Tarot Classic deck is from U. S. Games Systems, not Llewellyn/Lo Scarabeo. If this is not confusing enough, let me know and I will try to confuse things further.

jmd	03 Nov 2002
ihcoyc, I still need to acquire some soprafino decks for my 'collection'... so thanks for your input. With regards to Lee's comment regarding the Camoin Marseille, I very much agree with much of the post. As to either the 'tail' upon one of the characters on the Sun card, or the 'snake' at the hem of Temperance, however, I do not think that one needed to squint the eyes and let the imagination run a little wild: on at least one deck for each of these cards, one finds the same or very similar depictions (though I must admit that the 'snake' appears accentuated upon the Camoin). In terms as to whether there is an 'original' Marseille, the way this is answered is probably twofold. One the one hand, the Camoin does not, to be sure, get any 'closer' to the historically earliest Marseilles deck. On the other hand, one may consider that there is an essential Marseille which Camoin and Jodorowski attempted to bring to light in its purest form - though I do not think they totally succeeded, they have certainly produced a beautiful deck. For those interested, here is my review.

Diana	03 Nov 2002
edited

Ladyfog	09 Nov 2002
My Dear: You eventually will learn the #. When I was first introduced to Tarot, I though the same as you. Later, as I read, and study, and practice reading for others; I began to define my taste or preferences for Deck`s styles. Marseilles Deck is very simple at first sight, but it`s full of symbols. I love simple decks that get to the point. Simplicity access the unconscious more directly. Those fancy borders in some decks distract me, and some of them have a mixture of various esoteric traditions that you end up all mixed up in finding the meanings, and not listening to the voice of intuition. Also there are other decks that are very loud in the artistic or design expression. This decks shout so loud that you can't hear the voice of intuition, that is so tender an require concentration. ************ example: "The High Priestess"*************** Her yellow crown is a symbol of enlightenment. The crown is multi layered, it has 3 levels: 1- Phisical layer---It has rubies in the form of four leaves clovers, as a sign of the earth activity. 2- Mental layer-- In the second layer there are big topaz`s and little rubies, symbolizing that the earth is softly illuminated by a superior consciousness. 3- Animus layer--- a little circle with emeralds , a symbol of psichic power. The 2 pearls are symbols of the sublimation of the feelings that opens the gate of the divine. And this is only the Crown of The High Priestess......as you see The Marseilles Deck is the most enigmatic deck I had ever known. If you want to study this deck, buy the book of Paul Marteau. I have the spanish version (Spanish is my first language). The French titlle is: Le Tarot De Marseille. If you decide to study this deck, as I know you will, take your time finding a good book. I wish you joy, Ladyfog Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer sorry but i don't think i can be converted to the marseille style deck. i always get hooked into trying to remember numerology and i hate dealing w/ numbers. thus making marseille decks an unpleasant experience. i have 3 such decks so i haven't given up but i seldom get to them i have so many fully imaged decks that are primary and secondary colors. ;) }) i like lots of color and a deck w/ only primary colors doesn't capture my attention. can someone tell me some positive things about the marseilles deck that might encourage me to try harder to become familiar w/ it? i really don't like the idea of writing these decks off. i figure they've been around for centuries for some reason.

jmd	09 Nov 2002
Welcome to Aeclectic, Ladyfog, and glad to have another enthusiast. What you write has much to commend, and we should also remember that Marteau's version of the Marseilles is but one of numerous. In many, the Popesse's Crown has but two layers, in contrast to the Pope's triple Crown. As you have been studying Marteau's 1934 (?) book recently, it would be great to have your comments in the Historical & Iconographic section... ...and I'll just have to work on my cultural cringe at your 'my dear(s)' :).

truthsayer	12 Nov 2002
i received that classical tarot today. i've really looked thru some marseille type decks but this is the only one so far i feel there is potential i will learn to read. i have been happily reading rws style decks for 27 years. asking myself to trade camps overnight is oo much to ask of myself. i have a strong image memory while i tend to be a bit number phobic. while on the surface my dislike of math shouldn't affect my ability to do interpretations with a marseille, it does. i have tried to learn some basic numerology but i just can't seem to make verbal meanings stick into my mind. i do plan to give it my best shot! i really like the colors and detail of the cards. this give me an incentive to try to learn some numerology.

Lee	12 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer i have tried to learn some basic numerology but i just can't seem to make verbal meanings stick into my mind. i do plan to give it my best shot! i really like the colors and detail of the cards. this give me an incentive to try to learn some numerology. Hi truthsayer -- You know, there are plenty of people out there who read non-illustrated decks by looking at a pip card and simply bringing to mind the corresponding R-W-S image (or from any deck you like). I don't think there's anything wrong with doing it this way, and it involves no learning curve whatsoever (at least not for anyone who's familiar with R-W-S type Minors). If you do this, I think you'll find (as I'm finding) that even if you bring to mind the R-W-S images, you'll still have more freedom, because the image isn't actually on the card, so you can play around with the image, or substitute a different deck's image if you think that makes more sense for that reading. -- Lee

Imp	15 Nov 2002
Hello to everybody, and apologies for barging in the discussion. I take that the thread here has to do with the value of a Marseille deck as a less mediated (or "tampered") medium from an historical point of view... If you want a Marseille tarot for divination, why not use a Vieville? Le Tarot de Marseille in the classical form we know is essentially a deck of playing card for the Tarot game, which is still played in France today with a federation and tournaments etc. In Italy where I come from, the regional playing cards for most games are a deck of 40 minor arcana , 1 to 7, valet, knight and king. The Atouts (major Arcana) have been simplified by cardmakers for easy recognition in the XVIII and XIX century, and the iconography may not always be accurate for divination purposes. Mind you, for the majority of people (barring some rare esoteric decks of the XVIII century that were not widely circulated) before Rider Waite there was no difference between a "playing" and a 'divinatory" deck, so in a very important sense the Tarot de Marseille is *the* most consistently used one in history. Getting to the point: The Vieville Tarot is not a modern reproduction but a photostatic copy of the original in the Cabinet des Estampes de la Bibliotèque National (you can actually see the stamp on each card). It is from between the 1640s and the 1650s stencil coloured. It is slightly different from the traditional Marseille and has some interesting peculiarities bot in the major and minor arcana that are worth looking at: also the names of some of the arcana reflect the older italian or Occan names. This is probably the oldest Marseille or Milano deck around. Or, if you want a Marseille tarot, why not use the Heron one? Again it is a photostatic copy of an original one, so it is certainly the "real thing" by historical standards. Apologies about the long post and for any inadvertant breach of etiquette. Imp

Lee	15 Nov 2002
Hi, Imp, no need at all to apologize, you are truly welcome! :) -- Lee co-moderator, Tarot Decks

jmd	28 Nov 2002
A belated welcome to Aeclectic, Imp - I must admit I missed your post (at times some threads appear as already read, even when I definitely haven't read them). With regards to the Vieville, I certainly agree that it is a early version - as to whether it is a Marseilles, I personally do not consider it as such (though it is of the family). Please do join-in contributing to the threads in the Historical and Iconographic Tarot Forum section - in addition to these threads!

fairyhedgehog	28 Nov 2002
I was fascinated by the vieville deck, a bit more tarot history to take in :) Look forward to seeing your posts in some other forums, Imp.

Nadia	07 Jul 2004
GOT THE MARSEILLE DESK WHEN OPENED COULDN'T READ IF IT S REVERSED OR NOT .I M BEGINER IN TAROT ANY BODY TELL ME WHAT TO DO.

tao51	09 Jul 2004
that the Marseilles deck lends itself to intuitive readings very easily. One has to go with what works for them.--Tao

The Marseilles Deck thread was originally posted on 17 Oct 2002 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.