Nigel Jackson deck freaking me out!

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 16 Oct 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Myrrha	16 Oct 2002
Well, that is an exageration, but still! The cards are large, the colors are bright and there is a kind of sensitivity to the way he draws. It adds up to a lot of emotional impact. I got this deck in a trade with Truthsayer recently and have been playing with it, sorting it this way and that way but have not done a new deck reading yet. Atually it is the Juggler card that is giving me pause. He has Trickster written all over him. Typical magician stuff on top of the table, but look at all that stuff *underneath*: a snake, candles, a book with a magickkkkkkal sigil on it! Actually this whole deck feels like things are going on underneath. On the Hanged Man card, it is supposed to be Judas and I remember something in the Bible about the field he bought being a stony field (is that right?) but what is that thing in the gate? It almost looks like the gate into the field is blocked with a large stone. Does anyone know what that is supposed to be? I hope this is the right forum for this post, please feel free to move it if not. -Myrrha

purplelady	16 Oct 2002
Nigel Jackson is one of my favorite decks. I was doing meditations on each of the majors in order.( Have been neglecting it lately though :( ). I'd say there very well may be a lot going on under the surface of this deck. In fact , that describes my meditations very well , when I "enter into" the cards. Not sure that I can add much more , but .................keep looking.

purplelady	16 Oct 2002
Hmmm, I see what you mean about the hanged man. And I'd never noticed that before! What is it? It could be................a bench? a bridge? A step? Some archaic , mediveal, or victorian garden opening of which I am unaware??

Keslynn	16 Oct 2002
I just ordered the Nigel Jackson and hopefully it will be getting here sometime next week. *crosses fingers* I'll definitely have to check out the cards that you've mentioned because now I'm intrigued. :) Kes

Zhritza	17 Oct 2002
oooh, now that I look at it closely I really like this hanged man... I love the apparent garden opening, a good way to symbolize the potential "seeking" aspect of the card, and do you see how his jacket has Yods all up and down it?? So that connects it to the Hermit and the Moon; really focusing on the going-off-the-beaten-path-to-find-stuff idea... In the Juggler, I like the implication that what we see may have something far more potent beneath or behind it - but we can find it if we look in places besides the obvious ones :cool:

Myrrha	17 Oct 2002
I had not noticed the yods! Thanks. And the gate does make it seem like "seeking" especially since there is a kind of path going to it. I am intrigued by the idea that this is Judas: Judas did a bad thing, but that action was part of a larger good thing. So again this idea of reversal. In the LWB Nigel Jackson says Judas was important to the gnostics but doesn't say what he meant to them, or give a specific reference. I hope someone writes a longer book to go with this deck. It does seem like a good deck for entering into the cards, because they are so alive. Ooooh I'm going to like this deck . . .but . . . why is the pope only wearing one glove? :) Keslynn, let us all know what you think of this deck when you get it. The scans on-line really don't do it justice. -Myrrha

Lovelace	17 Oct 2002
I have the Nigel Jackson - I always thought of the gate as symbolizing that Hanged Man periods tend to be times when you're on the threshold between two states or phases of your life - not really on one side or the other. Stuck in the gateway, as it were. :T9P

Zhritza	18 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Myrrha Ooooh I'm going to like this deck . . .but . . . why is the pope only wearing one glove? See, all this time I've been trying to tell people that the guy with the hacked-away face and the two sons named Prince is not the *real* Michael Jackson, and the one true Michael is finding himself as a member of an obscure monastic order, sitting on a throne somewhere, waiting for the right time to make his comeback. Just like Elvis. })

Myrrha	18 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Qolus See, all this time I've been trying to tell people that the guy with the hacked-away face and the two sons named Prince is not the *real* Michael Jackson, and the one true Michael is finding himself as a member of an obscure monastic order, sitting on a throne somewhere, waiting for the right time to make his comeback. Just like Elvis. }) :D! I knew it would be something truly esoteric! -Myrrha

Demonesse	19 Oct 2002
I find the art to be so-so; however, the deck does seem more mysterious than the average deck, and I appreciate the details like Temperance's fluffy wings and the corwn and garlanded coffin at Death's feet.. But I wonder why the popess, of all people, has a peacock at her feet? * Michael Jackson is NOT in a monastic order. He's part of a cryptic underground league of a plumbers' union that is planning the apocalypse by having everyone's pipes overflow - the second biblical great flood!

Zhritza	19 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Demonesse But I wonder why the popess, of all people, has a peacock at her feet? maybe to accentuate the necessity of looking beneath the surface when finding knowledge, of not getting sidelined by the flashy stuff that's obvious and easy to see? if memory serves, the older LWBs tend to have keywords for the popess/priestess such as "the unseen," "intuition..." this is turning out to be a really secrets-oriented deck...

Lee	19 Oct 2002
I believe the Popess has a peacock because of her association with the goddess Juno (the 1JJ Swiss deck renames the Popess and the Pope as Juno and Junon). Juno is mythologically associated with the peacock. -- Lee

Myrrha	19 Oct 2002
There is a peacock on the High Priestess in the Deva Deck as well. The peacock is sacred to Juno and N.J. says that in classical times the "Juno" was the feminine equivalent of the "genius", which is a person's guardian spirit and source of inner knowledge. "Secrets-oriented" seems like a good way to put it. In the background of the Empress card there is the opening of a cave. The surface of the card is life, nature, green growth, but beneath . . . death and decay? monsters? Myrrha Quote: Originally posted by Qolus maybe to accentuate the necessity of looking beneath the surface when finding knowledge, of not getting sidelined by the flashy stuff that's obvious and easy to see? if memory serves, the older LWBs tend to have keywords for the popess/priestess such as "the unseen," "intuition..." this is turning out to be a really secrets-oriented deck...

Demonesse	20 Oct 2002
:eek: Ooh. Is there a link where I can view the Empress and the Hanged Man? I think though, that the cave may lead not rather to death and decay, but to deeper tunnels of the spirit which contain heretofore unexplored truths that may be bleak as well...perhaps it's a gateway to the realm of the High Priestess...after all, caves are full of life (bats, scorpions, roaches, centipedes and snakes! ;) )

Zhritza	20 Oct 2002
The Empress is here, in the top row: http://www.themysticeye.com/pics/njackson.htm I can't find the Hanged Man online...

Keslynn	20 Oct 2002
Perhaps the cave symbolizes the Empress's womb? That hill looks a little like a pregnant belly and the opening is a little vaginal. But then again, it could just be me... :) Kes

Myrrha	20 Oct 2002
Another way to see cards from this deck would be to go to the Llewellyn web site and look under "fun and free". They have an on-line mechanical tarot reading thingy and you can specify this deck. I did this asking the question "what to the NJ cards look like?" and just asked for cc after cc until I had seen most of the cards. Myrrha

Demonesse	21 Oct 2002
Now THAT is probably the grimmest Moon I have ever seen. Gives me the heebie-jeebies! :eek: Hmm...I still stick to my earlier theory about the cave, especially since it's up on a hill - higher and deeper aspirations maybe? Or perhaps he just wanted a different background. I get asked what the symbolism is in my drawings a lot, when I neve rintended any and was just drawing for the fun of it. Love the Two of Cups! Oh no Myrrha...you're making me want this deck too...it's all your fault! I mean, the art isn't all that spectacular to me (wish the colouring was better, deeper, richer), but there's either SOMETHING about this deck or it's just that i've been reading this thread too much!

Keslynn	21 Oct 2002
Demonesse, you really need this deck. I just ordered my own copy not too long ago, and I can't wait to get it. The pictures online look gorgeous. Although I usually like bolder color, apparently, the artist did all that with watercolor. I find that amazing, especially since I could only ever smear watercolors into vague shapes. So... you should buy it! ;) You NEED the Nigel Jackson... :) Kes, Tarot Siren

Myrrha	21 Oct 2002
Demonesse I liked your interpretation of the cave as leading to "deeper tunnels of the spirit . . . and the realm of the high priestess." The cave kind of reminds me of the myth of the Descent of Innana where Innana goes down to visit her sister Ereshkigal the queen of the dead and it is a very difficult inner journey where she almost is destroyed but learns a lot. NJ says the face in the moon is the gorgon Medusa, to terrify anyone who approaches the underworld mystery without the right frame of mind. He seems to be focussing on the darker side of the moon archetype; seeing the moon as Hecate and Lilith, "Mistress of Night". I like how the moon and sun cards are similar in design, they have really different imagery but they go together well making a pair. It is interesting how he blends pagan and Christian meanings in the sun card. He says it is both the Christian "Light of the World" and the initiated pagan's concept of the sun shining at midnight, "Deus Sol Invictus" There is some Christian imagery in the deck, the ace of coins has a rose and cross and all the coins have crosses, the center of the wheel of fortune is a cross . These are equal armed crosses which have meaning in pre christian religions as well. It is hard to talk about how good or bad the art is in a deck because that is so much a matter of taste. I was first interested in this deck because I liked the art. Many of the figures are only about five and a half heads tall (ratio of head to total height) giving them a whimsical look and saving the deck from that ultra-realistic drawing look which I personally don't like very much. The lines are delicate and sensitive. Some of the cards, 7 coins, 5 coins, 10 cups, are twilight or dawn scenes where the color is very subtle, almost just one color in the scene with hints of light. I can understand wanting something richer and darker though, as watercolor tends to feel light and airy. Myrrha

Zhritza	21 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Lee I believe the Popess has a peacock because of her association with the goddess Juno booger, and I knew that, too; the Londa (which I traded... to Mojo, I think) has a peacocky Priestess as well, although that Priestess is very slinky for a Priestess ;) The face on the NJ's Moon looks familiar to me, like something from Hindu imagery; I could have sworn I saw it on some deity's face... and it wasn't Kali... hmmm. maybe I dreamed that up. The brightness of the deck is a nice change from most of the decks I have... I like how the lines are almost quavering or watery-looking, it gives the deck more of a mysterious feel.

Demonesse	22 Oct 2002
The face on the NJ's Moon looks familiar to me, like something from Hindu imagery; I could have sworn I saw it on some deity's face ---- Qolus That I kinda doubt, but it is sort of similar to Theravada Buddhist portrayals of Mara's demons....or maybe it's just an ugly face hehe. NJ says the face in the moon is the gorgon Medusa, to terrify anyone who approaches the underworld mystery without the right frame of mind. -----Myrrha This seems a more likely explanation to me. Do you have an accompanying book or did you contact the artist, Myrrha? Yes, the art is very much a matter of taste. I myself like the ultra-realistic and stylized both, but I am not in favour of the diluted-strength feel of watercolour as an artist myself, so Im biased in that sense, heh. But there are many details I DO like - I like the way the swords are arranged, as well as the back design. So... you should buy it! You NEED the Nigel Jackson... -----Keslynn Nooooooo....save me...ah what the heck, I'll get it! To be honest, when I first heard the NJ tarot's name I thought it was going to be another baseball tarot or something like that...:P

Myrrha	22 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Demonesse NJ says the face in the moon is the gorgon Medusa, to terrify anyone who approaches the underworld mystery without the right frame of mind. -----Myrrha This seems a more likely explanation to me. Do you have an accompanying book or did you contact the artist, Myrrha? [/b] The deck comes with a small book, about 130 pages. It has a lot of references to mythology in the majors. He recognizes that the actual cards have their origin in renaissance Italy but then goes on to say that "the most ancient essence of the Tarot can be seen to have been passed down from the adepts of Gnostic mystery-cults and the doctrines of Hermetic-Neo-Pythagorean magicians, which flourished into the final centuries of the Roman world up to the reign of the last pagan emperor, Julian the Apostate." The book is kind of a teaser, it brings up these hermetic and mystery-cult ideas but doesn't really go into them in any depth. There is a list of books for further reading. If I were going to contact the artist I would probably ask him about the layers of Christian and Pagan symbolism, which is a really fascinating aspect of the deck, and maybe about the wands=air and swords= fire switch. I don't mind the switch but he has kept the Waite-Smith meanings of the cards, so the attributions are switched but the meanings stay the same. Myrrha

Keslynn	22 Oct 2002
I just got my NJ in the mail today and I'm so happy! I've only looked through the deck once, and I am totally in love. The pictures are gorgeous and surprisingly vibrant. The computer screen does not do them justice! They're not at all yucky fluidy Monet-ish like some watercolor can be. The images are also quite succinct. Even after one look-through, I can tell that interpretation of these cards will be easy for me. There are no images that I just don't get. I'm looking forward to working more with them and doing readings. :) Kes

Demonesse	22 Oct 2002
Hey! No Monet insults! But seriously, are the images that much more vibrant or is there only a subtle difference? :D

Keslynn	22 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Demonesse Hey! No Monet insults! But seriously, are the images that much more vibrant or is there only a subtle difference? :D Well, perhaps someone else can back me up here. The difference didn't knock me out of my chair but it was definitely there. NJ does a lot with those watercolors, and the scans miss some of the lovely gradations of color and the "solidness" of some of the forms. No washed out Temperence angel in this deck! She's red. There are indeed cards that are more pastel than others but it depends on the theme he's trying to get across. It's pretty effective. The Star is usually a card I don't even think much about but his is beautiful. Oh and he uses REAL women. They have full hips and curved stomachs. That appealed to my feminist side. :) Kes

Myrrha	23 Oct 2002
Yes, the difference is not huge but it is there. The red on Temperance's gown and the Knight of Swords and the cloth under the Juggler's table is actually an almost flourescent cool red. The cards have much more impact than I thought they would from the scans. To me they seemed almost too intense at first, although I am liking them more and more and feel almost ready to do a new deck reading with them. I wouldn't say the impact comes from rich, dark colors like in the Thoth deck, though. Keslynn congrats on your new deck! Myrrha

Zhritza	23 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Demonesse NJ says the face in the moon is the gorgon Medusa, to terrify anyone who approaches the underworld mystery without the right frame of mind. -----Myrrha This seems a more likely explanation to me. Do you have an accompanying book or did you contact the artist, Myrrha? uh, I'm not questioning what it actually is, Demonesse; I know there is a book because I have it, so when Myrrha said that, I accepted it as truth, certainly. I was merely remarking that it was very reminiscent of something else, as well, that I could not quite put my finger on. I agree, Keslynn, nothing wimpy about this Temperance; she is alchemically balanced, but I like her better than most Temperances because she lacks the ultra-softness that other ones tend to have. In this deck, at least, "well-blended" does not have to mean "half-assed."

Myrrha	23 Oct 2002
Well, I did my new deck reading, asking about the nature of the deck and what influence it's guidance would have on my spiritual life. The sun card was there, which I was glad to see, and cards which seemed to be saying the deck is going to be about air and fire, stimulating intellectual curiosity and communications. But then I fell asleep with the cards still layed out on the bed and I had a dream that tarot cards were used to investigate criminal cases because they allowed the reader to experience both sides of the story. So I had the intense experience of being both an elderly man who had been poisoned, feeling his throat close up, choking, and the experience of being the accused person who had after all only been trying to get the victim to drink an antidote to the poison. Somehow the tarot cards provided a gate to actually experiencing what had happened. So it seems that on the surface the deck will work by ideas but underneath will be something more immediate, perhaps development of empathy. Myrrha

Keslynn	23 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Qolus In this deck, at least, "well-blended" does not have to mean "half-assed." *lol* Very well said! :) Kes

Demonesse	23 Oct 2002
Somehow the tarot cards provided a gate to actually experiencing what had happened. So it seems that on the surface the deck will work by ideas but underneath will be something more immediate, perhaps development of empathy. -----Myrrha Hmm. Do you truly believe that the tarot cards provided a gateway to an actual happening or for you to experience what it would be like for a victim? I ask this because I believe that dreams can be reflective of our hopes and fears and such, but I don't believe that a deck can 'transmit' such an experience to one per se. However, I do agree that the deck may appeal to your inner self and may help you develop empathy in relation to the querent, or for the problems of others. No offense, I just find that many people fancy themselves to be empaths (in the full-blown sense), which I'm highly skeptical of.

Myrrha	23 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Demonesse Somehow the tarot cards provided a gate to actually experiencing what had happened. So it seems that on the surface the deck will work by ideas but underneath will be something more immediate, perhaps development of empathy. -----Myrrha Hmm. Do you truly believe that the tarot cards provided a gateway to an actual happening or for you to experience what it would be like for a victim? I ask this because I believe that dreams can be reflective of our hopes and fears and such, but I don't believe that a deck can 'transmit' such an experience to one per se. However, I do agree that the deck may appeal to your inner self and may help you develop empathy in relation to the querent, or for the problems of others. No offense, I just find that many people fancy themselves to be empaths (in the full-blown sense), which I'm highly skeptical of. Oh dear, I should have made myself more clear :). In my dream the tarot cards were used somehow as a gateway to allow one person to share another's experience, this kind of thing can happen in dreams. I *interpreted* this to mean that this deck might be useful for the development of empathy, in the everyday sense. This is the quality of being able to, through the haze of our own desires and fears, discern what feelings might be motivating another person. It is a moral/psychological quality: knowing what will hurt another person or make them happy because we know what makes ourselves unhappy and we accept that another's feelings are as strong and important as our own. If you do a spread with tarot cards, say for a relationship, that looks into your feelings and also your partner's feelings you are working on empathy, your ability *and willingness* to perceive and understand their feelings. Sorry if I put that in a garbled way before, I am not hoping that the deck will magically give me psychic powers, nor do I believe that the cards actually made me experience someone else's death by poisoning, it was a dream talking in dream-language. As for saying the deck might work in ways that are more immediate than just presenting intellectual ideas, it is not a new idea that real archetypes, powerful ones, affect us on a level that is deeper than the intellect. Just taking the archetypes into your consciousness can have a transformative effect. That is why I have The Empress and The Fool and The Hanged Man on my deck rather than the Teletubbies. ;) Does that seem too far out there to you? Myrrha

Demonesse	24 Oct 2002
:) I agree with your views actually - tarot for me does not operate on a supernatural but on an intuitive level - a look into the pysche that may or may not be interpreted correctly, for I also believe that sometimes we subconciously twists readings into what we would like to hear - it's relatively easy to 'fit' almost any card into one's situation, I think. Yet archetypes in particular can help us recognize basic yet profoundly deep truths or to better our understanding of phases of life that we all pass through. If you had the Teletubbies in your deck, I'd think you were on something! Just kidding ;)

Myrrha	12 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Myrrha Ooooh I'm going to like this deck . . .but . . . why is the pope only wearing one glove? -Myrrha I was really curious about this... and may have found a possible answer! In Oswald's Wirth's Tarot of the Magicians he writes that his Pope "...is wearing white gloves to show that his hands remain pure, and are never contaminated by contact with earthly affairs..." Wirth's Pope wears gloves on both hands but perhaps Nigel Jackson's Pope has only one glove to show that while he is a spiritual teacher he is not, after all, so far above earthly affairs. Just an idea. Myrrha

raeanne	14 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Myrrha ...but perhaps Nigel Jackson's Pope has only one glove to show that while he is a spiritual teacher he is not, after all, so far above earthly affairs. Just an idea. Myrrha There has been corruption in the church for centuries. The recent scandle of priests and sexual abuse of children is only one of many. The glove on only one hand could mean that "one hand is clean and the other hand is dirty".

The Nigel Jackson deck freaking me out! thread was originally posted on 16 Oct 2002 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.