The Star That Never Walks Around: A Native American Tarot Package

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 04 Oct 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

RedWood	04 Oct 2002
Anyone have this? Any thoughts? Got the info off of Amazon.. The Star That Never Walks Around: A Native American Tarot Package by Stella Bennett List Price: $34.95 Our Price: $24.47 You Save: $10.48 (30%) Edition: Paperback Product Details Paperback: 208 pages ; Dimensions (in inches): 1.89 x 6.62 x 6.56 Publisher: Red Wheel/Weiser; ISBN: 1578632420; Kit edition (September 2002) Editorial Reviews Book Description When buffalo roamed the earth and the nomadic Plains Indians followed, it was by the light of Polaris, the North Star, the Star that Never Walks Around, that the tribes were always able to find their way. Stella Bennett has transformed the tarot into an oracle based on Native American lore. The traditional suits of Wands (fire), Cups (water), Swords (air), and Pentacles (earth) here become Thunderbirds (creatures of the fire from the sky), Frogs (water creatures), Butterflies (creatures of the air), and Turtles (the Native American symbol of Mother Earth). On the Court cards are images of warriors and medicine women. On the major arcana we see swans representing one's acceptance of transformation, and coyote as the cosmic trickster. Bennett's guidebook shows readers how to use their own intuitions to interpret card imagery and to read cards for themselves and others.

zorya	04 Oct 2002
i moved this from divination to tarot decks because, even though the suits are renamed, it remains a tarot deck.

RedWood	04 Oct 2002
Ok..OOps..sorry Zorya..

Kyrielle	04 Oct 2002
I think I saw pictures of this deck on an earlier thread, and I wasn't enthused. It would be interesting to know the author and artist's ethnic background -- how much of a claim she has to American Indian heritage, or at least where her ideas come from. I once heard from an Indian man I know that American Indians are generally quite offended by outsiders using a version of their sacred teachings and practices as basis for things unrelated to those practices, such as tarot decks. They also have issues with false shamanism -- those who claim to practice Indian religion with no real respect or knowledge of what they are doing. I'm not saying that it's a bad deck. The author could be coming from a decent angle. It's just that every time a new tarot that claims to be based on American Indian spirituality comes out, I remember that conversation. And I never end up buying the deck. Kind of negative, but that's my view on American Indian tarot decks. -- Kyrielle

Lee	05 Oct 2002
Check out this thread, the first post has the author's website where you can see the cards. -- Lee

truthsayer	05 Oct 2002
i've seen the deck in the box but didn't feel inspired to get it. the images of the deck on the box don't feel any more inspiring that when i saw them online. the colors seem muted or grayed too much. it just didn't call to me at all.

RedWood	05 Oct 2002
Sorry bout starting this thread when there weas another one! I get on here everyday..oh well..How much I pay attention..Ok I just looked at the images..I dont like them very much..I would definately want to see them in person before buying..

juice	08 Oct 2002
I looked at the website and found the images not attracting but not detracting either. The meanings listed on the website seemd fine. What attracts me most to this deck is the fact that I like it more than other round decks and wouldn't mind exploring the partial reversal eventually. Mother piece might have some good concepts but I can't get past the art. I like the cloisters better than I thought I would but it is a RSW near clone. As to the conversation mentioned earlier in the thread... I grew up living down the street from a family who's father was a local chief though you'de never tell if you didn't hear the weekly drum practice which was pleasant to listen to. One of the boys said that Native Americans were offended at all the rest of us angling in on their customs I took that to heart. Now I hear from a friend that that is a fairly uncommon view and most respect someone who wishes understanding in a respectful manner.

Teal	08 Oct 2002
I'm Cherokee. Most Native Americans are not offended if respect is shown, as the last poster mentioned. What they don't like, though, is when people take little bits of things from many tribes, mix it all together and then tout it as being Native American beliefs. Especially spiritual practices. Most Native Americans will not even share spiritual beliefs and practices with outsiders, so what's available to the public is a mixture of little things from many tribes, partly made up by the non-Indian authors and can't be said to be actual Native American beliefs. Jamie Sams is New Age, and she's one of the ones a lot of Indians are offended by because she's made up a "generic" set of supposed Indian beliefs. On the back of my van, I have a bumper sticker that says "I was Indian before being Indian was cool". Right now, it's a big deal, but in days gone by when there was genocide by the American government, it was NOT cool and we had to hide our Indian blood if we could. Many people still try to hide it and there's still a lot of prejudice against Indians. We're the only ethnic group who has to have a card to "prove" we're the heritage we are. In America, which has always boasted that it was founded on freedom of religion, my people (who were here first) had no right-------it was illegal, actually------to possess the artifacts of our religious practices or to practice our religious ceremonies until 1979! Consequently, the powwows you see now are nothing like they were in the old days because so many of our people who knew those practices had died and taken the knowledge with them. Sorry to seem like I'm on a soapbox. I thought maybe this information would be of interest here, since the subject was brought up. I'm personally pretty easy-going. I think just quietly and respectfully explaining to people who don't know about these things is a great help in promoting understanding. I have more than one of the Native American decks. The Vision Quest is a favorite. I can sort out what's "generic" beliefs in the decks. I haven't seen one yet that's tribe-specific. I doubt there will ever be one because tarot isn't an Indian "thing". Like any other ethnic group, though, we have people who practice a wide range of spiritual things. The deck that REALLY clicked with me was the Buckland Romani-----but I have the Native American, Medicine Woman, Ancestral Path, and Vision Quest decks, among others. I hope this was of interest to many who might not have known some of the things I've said.

Lee	08 Oct 2002
Hi, Teal, thank you for posting this... I found it very informative and interesting. -- Lee

Teal	08 Oct 2002
Lee---you're very welcome. I'm glad if I educated, entertained or enligtened you. I know there are some Native Americans who get downright nasty about this issue, but I'm not one of them.

Kyrielle	08 Oct 2002
The reason why I was reluctant to buy an American Indian tarot deck was because I would never want to support something that might offend those spiritualities. But now that Teal has so kindly enlightened us, I might aproach those decks again, knowing that the view of the general community is apparently different from the view of a few like the individual I spoke to. This man seemed very adamant that the traditions of his heritage be closed to those not of Indian blood, and the only way we of European ancestry could respect that was to entirely repress our curiosity, however respectful our intentions. I am relieved to know that lots of people do not feel that way. So now maybe I'll take a second look at the Vision Quest, or something, and keep Jamie Sams out of mind... -- Kyrielle

Teal	08 Oct 2002
Kyrielle----If you know very many Native Americans as you go through your life's path, I think you'll find that the majority of them are very respectful, gentle, and kind people, not like the one you encountered. It's not the Indian way to be rude and disrespectful of others, however rude and disrespectful others may be to us. Spiritual beliefs and practices are a very private thing to us. We don't push our beliefs on others or try to evangelize anyone. Every animal, plant, tree, river, rock------everything is spiritual in nature to an Indian, as we believe these things have a spirit like we do. Therefore, it's not like we have any dogma or creed. Sacred beliefs and ceremonies are not shared with the world in general-------only with those who come respectfully and quietly and show with a sincere heart that they desire these things for personal use, not to use to make money from or to publicize in any way. Charging for sweat lodges or other ceremonies will never be done by a true Indian, because they fall under the realm of the sacred, and sacred things are not to be bought and sold. To an Indian, all of life is a spiritual practice, you could say. As with Buddhism, things are done "mindfully". If an animal is killed for food, the belief is that you thank the spirit of the animal for having given itself to sustain your life, as I've said in other posts. A good illustration of this is the grass dance. I don't know how many of you have ever been to a powwow, but among the Plains tribes, there are dancers called grass dancers. The original purpose of this dance was to prepare an area of tall prairie grass for use by a tribe. The grass dancer's feet move in such a way that it will weave the tall prairie grass down flat without breaking the stems, so that after the group has left, then in two or three days, the prairie winds will blow through and the tall grasses will stand back upright with no sign that anyone had ever been there. One of the grass dancers in our area demonstrated this in an area of tall grass so we could all see it, and ever since then, that's been one of my favorite dance styles. Indians believe that we should leave any area as though we had never been there------we are said to walk lightly on our Mother Earth.

Sulis	08 Oct 2002
Teal, thankyou so much for your post. I do feel `educated, enlightened and entertained`. Love and light Crystalmynx xx

Teal	08 Oct 2002
You're very welcome! Teal

juice	09 Oct 2002
To complicate issues some of us end up with a shortage of "respectable" heritage. I'm at least six generations from any one born on another continent. My great grandmother's grandfather was indian but I don't know anyone in the family who even knows which tribe any more. All my great grandmother would say when she was 100 years old is "people didn't talk about such things". Yes she was lucid at 100. The only family history we know are people born and lived American. OK somebody researched and claimed 3 generations in England, starting 10 ago. All I have to support the claim of being "native" is a family rumor. I'm not Irish american, English american, or anything else american. The only thing left for me to be native to is earth. I don't mean to offend Teal. Your family managed to cling to a heritage. This is just one of my pet peeves.

All Is One	09 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Kyrielle wasn't enthused. -- how much of a claim she has to American Indian heritage, or at least where her ideas come from. I once heard from an Indian man I know that American Indians are generally quite offended by outsiders using a version of their sacred teachings and practices as basis for things unrelated to those practices, such as tarot decks. They also have issues with false shamanism -- those who claim to practice Indian religion with no real respect or knowledge of what they are doing. I'm not saying that it's a bad deck. {...} And I never end up buying the deck. Kind of negative, but that's my view on American Indian tarot decks. -- Kyrielle Thank You - Kyrielle...for honestly speaking for me...I am not able to know my genetic background...but I was raised in many places where if you were not a member of the tribe -you were OK- till you prove otherwise...but you are NOT entitled to write or teach or "report" ... and the cultureless american adoration of N.A. cultures tends to homogenize tham all together. Ther is no worse thing to call a Navajo than "Whitey" ... except for a few tribal monikers- "apache" or "sioux" being particularly offensive. I claim no land, no blood and no special knowledge of N A culture/ race/religion. Just where I have been...and what I have seen. Thanks K...I hate N A "tarot" also. If this offends those who love it- I am sorry. The decks I hate more will follow- Mary Hanson and Cyber Tarot...and Gendron. So if I read the rest of the thread and I am off base- please attack me over the M H Roberts isue or..make it personal? {where is J Lennon when you need him?}

All Is One	09 Oct 2002
I do not even know why these threads seem everywhere when I am suddenly struggling with an old and long left ex over these exact issue on a major spiritual and artistic (and DAILY) basis. My ex live in for ~2 yrs IS NA and now that he has decided to "branch out" artistically...wants no one to speak the words...yadayadayada. I can accept this. Yet he changes his mind (that term used loosely ) daily. If he wants to represent himself as a Martian who is half tralfamadorean on his father's side...who cares? He is NA...and if it is a secret - then O K... I know his entire family...all 5 brothers, mother, and even all g-parents who were alive 7 yrs ago...he is NA and refuses to let it be. Is he completely gone to the other side? Why do I have to argue race with an artist/ex-B.F./friend...when I don't care- race is not the issue..hypocrisy is! I just do not want to play word games . Why invoke me? Sorry I brought my biggest artistic peeve and my whining into a good disscussion. I went to see the site and deck mentioned and I hate it. I hope this is not going to be a gauntlet...anyone who loves the "MotherPeace" or the Medicine Deck" (only gift I ever gave away) might like this one. I just flat out can't handle the thing. No offense- I used the Rider-Waire for two decades... (did not know about the AT site then) and I still use it - rarely. It is ALL subjective. This deck..and even worse...this WEB SITE is one of the most obvious and crass efforts to cash in on (thought the trend died in the 70's..) NA culture that I have seen yet. Well- not since I left my short stay in Texas, at 9... it was also alarmingly apolitical, and without religious significance. Worst of all...slicker than...wet worms- and very well written. If I go back a few times and get over this visceral reaction- I will publicly behead myself...'K? I get tired of being polite and apologetic... (gee..I am so sorry...hee hee) Teal: realy well-written and evocative- extremely concise/spiritual- description of grass dance and other things. Thanks. And welcome- never met you here before~ ~aio

Zhritza	09 Oct 2002
this is a great thread. thanks so much, teal, for discussing this stuff from your perspective. coincidentally I have eyed the Vision Quest for awhile but haven't gotten it because the whole concept made me feel yucky and disrespectful. what bothers me most is the media's (and others') use of the terms "native american culture" or "american indian culture," as if there's one. (I'm guessing it bugs you infinitely more.) where I live we have a good-sized Ojibwe/Anishinaabe (Chippewa) community and a smaller Lakota (Sioux) one -- although until maybe 150 years ago, there were apparently far more Lakotas than Ojibwes here, but for numerous reasons that changed. This is a very liberal city, which is great in most ways as far as I'm concerned, with one big exception: Political correctness is a disease here. Average Minneapolitans are so busy falling all over ourselves to prove that we're informed and non-bigoted that we frequently don't deal with our prejudices as they arise (which they do, because no one is Gandhi, we all have bad preconceptions to eradicate). So racism is horribly insidious. I've met many people who are normally able to behave fairly toward those with different ethnicities than their own, but who will declare outright that Indians are all a bunch of lazy drunks. An interesting sideline to this politically-correct thing is that someone, somewhere along the line, decided that the term Native American shoud be used; but to be honest, all the Native American people I've met say "Indian." This includes acquaintances, political leaders, and even a professor I once had. Granted, he used "Native American" for the first couple weeks of class, but once he settled in a bit he went back to saying "Indian" which seemed to be much more automatic for him. So if I say "Native American," I feel like I sound benevolent and patronizing, because I'm assigning a "correct" label to a group of people who call themselves something else. Sort of like calling Lakota people "Sioux," or Dineh people "Navajo..." the list goes on. If I know what culture an Indian/NA person belongs to, that solves it, because I can say, "My professor is Ojibwe," etc. Thoughts? (If this is too far afield, I'll understand.) To get back to tarot, I guess I am more likely to buy the Vision Quest now. Thanks, teal! :|

Teal	09 Oct 2002
You're welcome. The use of the term Native American vs. Indian vs. whatever else is pretty individual among Indians. You can't please everyone. I'm Cherokee, but then there are those who object and say we're Tsalagi, and still others who say we're Aniyunwiya. It's never-ending. Basically I'm a human being no matter what my ethnic heritage is, and I hope I'm a good and honorable one because that's what I try to be.

Zhritza	09 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Teal The use of the term Native American vs. Indian vs. whatever else is pretty individual among Indians. You can't please everyone. ...yes, that's the impression I get. I am glad you personally are not offended by "Indian," then... :)

truthsayer	10 Oct 2002
teal, i'm curious about what do you think of the lakota sweat lodge cards:spiritual teachings of the sioux by chief archie fire lame deer and helene sarkis. it has it's own personality different from the medicine cards and the vision quest deck. it is an oracle vs. a tarot deck. i do love my vision quest tarot b/c of it's gentle nature and pastel colors. i've enjoyed jamie sams books and decks for the last 8 years so it saddens me that she is considered a New Age person trying to take advantage of native americans. it was an NA woman in fact who told me about jamie sams. i really enjoy native american culture and feel only profound respect for it. i live near a couple local tribes and have attended a few powwows and a sweat lodge. i know there is a lot of negative controversy in these tribes over who is considered NA and who isn't. this is important for a number of reasons like being able to particpate in powwows and tribal councils. whole families have been torn apart b/c one child will look more NA while another doesn't look NA enough to be allowed to participate. even tho i know members of the tribe i don't mention my interest in their spirituality. i don't want to come across the wrong way so i keep my distance in this area.

Teal	10 Oct 2002
Truthsayer--- Like I've said in another post, you'll find a wide range of beliefs among Native Americans. I read tarot, for instance, but that's surely not a belief that's traditional. I'm not surprised you have someone recommending a New Age author who is Indian herself. There are many possible reasons for this------maybe she knows she's Indian but doesn't know the traditions of her people, or maybe she just likes the New Age stuff and it fits her personal spiritual beliefs. I haven't seen the Lakota sweat lodge cards other than online. Sweat lodge isn't a Cherokee tradition--------the Cherokee go to water for the purposes that the Sioux and other tribes use a sweat lodge. The Cherokee do use a sweat lodge for a healing purpose sometimes, but not for purifying. Of all the Indian-based cards, there's not any that's tribe specific. They may be based on aspects of Indian spiritual beliefs in general, but not in particular as relates to any one tribe. I don't see anything wrong with this myself, but many probably would. I've got several of those decks and none of them clicked with me, so I personally don't prefer them. I'll look around and find pictures of the sweat lodge deck later this evening and get back to you about my impressions. Of the Native American based cards I have, the Vision Quest spoke to me a little more, but didn't prompt any communication from my subconscious. None of those decks did. The Ancestral Path seemed to have a little more power for me, but still not like the Buckland Romani. Here are the decks I've tried that are now in my collection, but not read by me: Ibis I Am One Vision Quest Ancestral Path Cosmic Tribe Fairy Deck Whimsical Native American Medicine Woman Zerner Hanson-Roberts Quick and Easy Mythic Spiral Avalon Goddess Buckland Romani--------THE deck for me! I should have gotten this one first. The rest I've given to kids and grandkids or put away for someday or for trading maybe. I traded for some and was given some----didn't buy all those, by the way, but I bought plenty! LOL

Teal	10 Oct 2002
I wanted to come back and say something in response to the "look more Indian" thing. There are people with blood quantum of as much as nearly full blood who will have blue eyes and blonde hair. And some of the tribes didn't have dark hair, skin, and eyes------some had lighter eyes and hair and even curly hair. Nowadays, with so many being mixed blood, there's not any way to tell if someone is Indian by looks. I belong to a small, non-recognized Cherokee nation, but our Chief's CDIB card gives him 50% blood and he has light hair, skin and eyes. The Cherokee in particular were often light skinned. My kids have Cherokee on both sides of their ancestry, and most are blue or hazel eyed, not dark hair and eyes like mine. I have hair that's mostly grey now, but it was naturally almost black, my eyes are very dark, but my skin is very pale and freckled. Go figure! LOL My blood quantum is around 1/16th, but the Cherokee believe if you have even a drop of the blood, if you live honorably and walk the path, you're Cherokee. Usually it depends on the powwow whether or not they require a BIA or CDIB card to be able to participate. There are lots of small intertribal powwows where anyone can join it, especially on intertribal dances or the get-acquainted dances.

All Is One	11 Oct 2002
I am lost here. I started out on a thread that seemed to be saying they loved a particularly offensive (IMHO) deck...and now we are off on a once again pursuit by ...some seekers... to connect with their ancestors. I am in a daily struggle over the fact that the path is what matters...and race, religion and sexual persuasion - or sex born into - is secondary. I feel like I fight a battle for no reason ... and then this thread! What is this? I must need a vowel. Qolus always stays grounded... so~~~ Calling for help Q: where do I clickfor "help" or a vowel... or a clue to what the point is? Why am I so offended? (BTW: TS~ I got the book and it's great I very much love you and I love the book but would NEVER buy the cards (yet - so fickle...if I got to hold them...) Did I ever confes that during our 11 year boycott of grapes and lettuce for Chavez...I ate as many as I could at my friend's houses? ~aio...the last musketeer

Zhritza	11 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by All Is One Qolus always stays grounded... so~~~ Calling for help Q: Why am I so offended? I think that's probably the first time anyone's referred to me as "grounded." This is an example of why I love the internet. :D In real life I don't actually think before I speak very often, so if you ever meet me, you'll change your tune, missy... aio, I think you are offended because we are nitpicking and being very concretely detailed about matters that, ideally, should never be picked apart. Where your spirituality takes you, where you find inspiring/valuable things on your path through life, is ultimately about guts, not intellect. When we focus purely on sociological aspects of non-Native/American/Indian individuals borrowing or tapping into Native cultures and religious systems, we are being disrespectful of individuals' rights to choose their own paths, in a sense -- we're ignoring the importance of what their guts are telling them. The catch is that there has been a history of some of these (white) individuals being inherently disrespectful themselves: by claiming to speak for all members of a nation or a religion when in fact they cannot; by charging thousands of dollars for "Native American spirituality seminars," etc., while the people belonging to the nations they claim to represent are direly poor and cannot get work or decent housing; and in a broader sense, by speaking about these matters in a way that marginalizes and minimizes the cultures. Some examples of this last aspect are talking about individual tribes/nations or about Indians in general as though they are vanished, gone, kaput; putting the supposedly vanished cultures on a pedestal (they "were" so noble, they "were" too good for this world, they "were" never violent or angry, they "were" pure and unsullied, etc.); and the one that annoys me the most personally, talking about Indians/Native Americans as though they all belong to one culture. At the time of the 1990 U. S. census (which focused on American Indians to a much greater degree than the 2000 census), there were a little over 200 living native cultures in the United States alone; hopefully 12 years hasn't changed this figure too much. Canada has a large number of additional tribes. Also, you may be offended because I'm talking about all these things that bug me, and I'm white. And, I may sound like I think this about all non-Indians who get really interested in one or more Indian cultures, which is not the case. I am aware that I can only speak for myself when I discuss this stuff. (If anyone disagrees with anything I say, or if I say something that is flat-out wrong, I hope someone will speak up or correct me.) In general it bothers me when there is a tendency for a group (or in this case, a group of groups) of people to get misrepresented and delineated by someone outside of their ranks, and this is the biggest example I have known of in my lifetime. I do find myself wishing that elected officials and community leaders from these cultures were making themselves more visible in the press and other media; that would help to alleviate the problem.

All Is One	11 Oct 2002
Thanks, Qolus: You may think you are something other than well-informed, fair-minded, sincere, and plain spoken...(i.e.>grounded) But I insist on the right to maintain my conviction in your being all of the above. Nicely done- you covered all angles, and I do get offended on several sides of this thing- but not deeply, and certainly not with any particular entity. Wow- I must be really working on PC... the rhetoric got thick there for a minute... I objected to the Medicine Deck for many many reasons. It was an offensive gift from a patronising person and the deck bothered me for other reasons. I don't like it, or the deck mentioned above. I hope that someday someone will create a deck of some kind of cards/ using system of their choice... that will authentically and deeply speak to the symbols and ideas these decks are trying to use~ I hope the person is one who has been culturally raised in the tribal traditions in which they are working...(any of the tribes) -whether they are ethnicly DNA members of the particular tribe is irrelevant.... It is almost more a religious matter for me than a racial one: If anyone ever misunderstood me or my website regarding my heritage or my claim to even KNOW everything about any particular topic related to this stuff- I can only say~ "I don't know much about too many things... *** forgot the second line :( *** ~philosophy is the talk on a cereal box ~religion is a ghost in the fog" -E.Brickell Anyway-Thanks Q...

Zhritza	12 Oct 2002
you're welcome :* :*

Kyrielle	16 Apr 2003
Because of a recent thread in Talking Tarot, this info may be of interest, so I've bumped this discussion back up. -- Kyrielle

Aerin	17 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kyrielle It would be interesting to know the author and artist's ethnic background -- how much of a claim she has to American Indian heritage, or at least where her ideas come from. -- Kyrielle My understanding from her site is that Stella Bennett's grandmother was Native American (and a Tarotist), and that her ideas came from her. Without actually meeting and talking to a person, I personally think that it is hard to judge their motivations for doing something. I'm not referring to the general discussion on this thread - which I think is very enlightening - just to judgements about specific deck developers who may or may not be respectful of a tradition. Aerin

raeanne	17 Apr 2003
Hi all, Why does someone have to be Native American to do a Native American tarot deck? Does anyone ask if an artist is Egyptian if they do an Egyptian tarot deck? I know a full blood Native American who doesn’t know diddly squat about his own ancestral culture. I also know a man of Asian ancestry who has studied the North American indigenous cultures for years. If these two people created Native American tarot decks, I know which one I would prefer. It wouldn’t be blood related! I understand people wanting to know if the author is knowledgeable, but I don’t understand why the artist/author has to be from a specific ethnic background to be credible. Is there something unethical about doing a tarot deck from a culture other than your own? I don't understand why this should be an issue.

zorya	17 Apr 2003
i certainly see your point raeanne. i am not making judgements here but wanted to suggest another point of view. i believe what is seen as part of the problem with non first-peoples/native american doing a tarot deck, is that the n.a's land, much of their culture and sometimes even their language and beliefs have been stolen from them. to profit off of their sacred symbols and beliefs might be seen, by some, to be a little callous and disrespectful.

HOLMES	17 Apr 2003
that a person who is fully native, understands his culture, pratices it, (and here i mean the spiritual traditions of sweat lodge, and medicines, not just the shamanism as native tradition is so much more then that). and decided to share it. can't understand someone til one walks 2 miles in their mocassins. that means one can't understand the native culture unless they lived, been through the downs and ups. we all know there is a difference between knowledge of culture, and wisdom of living it and experiencing it. even today there is a bastardization of the ways in todays culture, in sweatlodge where i went to there was a carpet on the bottom of the sweat lodge, people took smoke breaks in between rounds. in truth, native tradtion is indeed split between tribes, even between reserves that makes up that one tribe. you get your differnt dialects, you get your differnt stories. your get your differnt ways. a person with the knowledge trying to put the native tradition into a tarot is trying the impossible. a person with the wisdom trying to put native spirituality into a tarot knows they are watering it down giving people an easy way. let me give an example, in the area where i am , a medicine person doens't drink for it means weakness, (old school i know) they must walk the life of the way of the traditions in order for us to go see the person. that is how they teach us , by example, that being said, i do like the decks that have been made so far, it gives me who has lost his traditions a window into what used to be, what could of been if we didn't lose our traditions due to opressions, and drugs, and other such stuff. notice i started this off the ideal is .. it is an ideal , but it is not the way it has to be , the natives prefer to be read with a deck of their nature then another kind of deck. the question reminds for me, what is it that is being sought in the native tarots ? an insigth into the past culture ? that tarot made from a historical point of view can give insight into that. one word of advice is the majority of us dont' wear buckskins or live in teepees, in fact as you can see i am on a computer , in a house just had chinese noodles. yet two weeks ago i went to a pow wow , and last year i went to a sweat lodge that was in the back of my friends house. an insight into the spirituality of the natives ? you may get an insight into the knowledge but i would find it hard to find the actual living wisdom unless one activatley applies to their walk of life, which some cards like the sacred path cards (not a tarot ) advocates doing. to become an instant indian ? NO WAY , that is a term we use around here for a native who goes to see a medicine man goes out and buys a sacred pipe ( one can not buy these things they are given after one has earn them ) buys himself a sacred drum ( same differnce but it can be made with the direction of a drum maker ) the cards that portray native american culture and spirituality (i got the sweat lodge cards but i dont' try to run a sweat lodge though i been a fire man (that is a person who watches the fire and brings in the rock to the sweat lodge ) i know enough that i . 1. i dont know the language 2. the teachings. 3. experience 4 . and lived the way to do an sweat lodge.

The The Star That Never Walks Around: A Native American Tarot Package thread was originally posted on 04 Oct 2002 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.