Thoth Deck - A. Crowley (Eerie?)

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 14 Oct 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Sinta	14 Oct 2002
Okay, I guess it's just been on my mind a bit. This deck is associated with A. Crowley (who seems to be infamous for something). I would like to know what gave this deck its reputation. Another thing. As I look at the imagery, i find them wonderful and drawn to them... yet am uncomfortable using them. THe images seem to want to pull you into the card or overflow into the real life. It's almost hypnotic and yet makes me feel uneasy.. I would like some opinions on this deck... my soulmate also has the same feelings about the card.... Thanks for any feedback ^_^

Sullanciri2002	14 Oct 2002
Hello Sinta - I've been a Thoth-user for a number of years now, and have read a lot of Crowley's books. Then again - as I've said on these pages many times before - I'm not a "Crowleyist". What I like most about the deck, is that it is based on so many different ideas, concepts, theories, religions, etc ... that it has led my to one study after another, and that (because of that deck and what went into making it) I've learned a great many things. All things considered, you can wield knowledge in any way you like, and don't have to take anything Crowley wrote at face value to use the deck: I've distilled those bits and pieces that speak to me, combined them with other ideas and concepts, and thus formed my own basis to work with the deck. As to Aleister Crowley himself - well, none of us (all of these people here at aeclectic) were there to meet the man: we all have to rely - more or less - on what others have written about him. The reports about Crowley, his actions, his beliefs, his character, and his lifestyle ... are as diverse as you can find about anyone who called himself a "magician". Most important about the man, is that he definitely liked to make some sort of impression and didn't shy away from "shocking" people out of their lethargy. Those who took his words in those situations literally ... only played into his hands. This might seem contradictory with a thread I started here a few months back, about a strange feeling that my deck was angry with me because I'd decided to buy a new deck ... however I would've voiced the same "question" (it really was a wild idea based on a small voice in the back of my own head) whatever deck I was using - so it has little to do with the Thoth in particular. Try the deck, read some of Crowley's stuff, have faith in your own abilities to separate the wheat from the chaff - and make your own journey through the information and the experience with the deck: that's what it's all about - the journey.

Demonesse	14 Oct 2002
Well it's a - nice - deck. Bright colours that seem somewhat dimmed, nice border and writing, stark outlining and occasionally surreal patterns (although I hate the geometric ones). A friend of mine has the deck and I don't particularly get any "vibrations" from it, so to speak. Favourite cards would be the High Priestess, 4 of Cups (lovely) and the Knight of Swords. Crowley has lots of interesting rumours about him, doesn't he? Like the one where his son dies when Crowley Sr and son are locked in a room performing a (botched?) demonic invocation. Tsk.

Sinta	14 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Sullanciri2002 Try the deck, read some of Crowley's stuff, have faith in your own abilities to separate the wheat from the chaff - and make your own journey through the information and the experience with the deck: that's what it's all about - the journey. I know when I look at the deck, I feel a strange pull towards it.. a vibration so to say... I dont know if it's good or bad, warning me away.. i seem tempted to look at the imagery.. as an artist myself, the colours strike a cord in me... and yet the imagery seems to warn me away... as if it overflows the card's phsyical essence. I guess I just have to feel used to it and more comfortable. Maybe when i'm even more experienced in tarot and i know exactly how to read the cards. Maybe then I can, how you say: "separate the wheat from the chaff "

Sinta	14 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Demonesse Crowley has lots of interesting rumours about him, doesn't he? Like the one where his son dies when Crowley Sr and son are locked in a room performing a (botched?) demonic invocation. Tsk. LOL I feel like the only one who hasn't heard about him before or these rumours..

anjocoxo	14 Oct 2002
i have to admit that i have aleister's deck for about 2 weeks, and it's excelent to me, i can feel them almost vibrating and sending strong messages to me... i love everything about the deck, and i don't care about what crowley did with his life (especially because it is easy to create false ideas about people who defy the morality, like he did). It is a wonderful piece of art, and it has been very revealing to me... hope you improve your relationship with your deck, sinta :)

Sinta	14 Oct 2002
Thanks anjocoxo! I guess I'm just a bit worried. Hopefully I'll feel comfortable soon. I'm also worried that anything Crowley might've done could follow the deck. I do believe in manifestations of a certain something. This deck is perhaps something Crowley created and through perhaps it will manifest something I might not at all like. No doubt I will try and get this deck, but maybe when I'm a bit more experienced and sure of myself.

MystiqueMoonlight	14 Oct 2002
For those on this forum who know me I am a Thoth fanatic. IMO the Thoth deck is the definitive deck. As Sullanciri2002 suggested there are so many cross cultural references in these cards so as to make this deck one of the most influential and intuitive decks ever made. As for Alester Crowley himself, yes there were a lot of rumours about him, some made long after his death. The man was way ahead of his time and is recognised as one of the most brilliant minds in the esoteric arts. Any ideas of foreboding with the Thoth deck based upon mythical stories of the creator's reputation should be dismissed. The Thoth deck is not for the faint hearted that is true, but it at least it's not filled with fantasy, giddy cartoon figures. It's marvelous! Oh did I say I was a little fanatical about this deck :)

Lee	14 Oct 2002
There's lots of good info in the following threads: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3432 http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3410 I'd just like to say, we don't necessarily want to demonize the man (although he seems to have done a fairly good job of that himself), but on the other hand, I'm not sure that it's a good idea to make him into a saint and say that anything negative ever said about him is mythical. There are plenty of historians and serious biographers who have established several truly awful things about him. I think the best thing to do is to read about Crowley from several sources (there are a few good biographies, click here to see a recently-published, well-reviewed one), judge for oneself how much weight to give the stories based on how trustworthy you feel each source is, and then decide for yourself if Crowley's history makes you feel uncomfortable with using the deck. As you'll see in the threads I've linked to above, there are plenty of people who don't feel comfortable with it and won't use the deck for that reason, and there are plenty of people who love the deck and simply disregard the history of the deck's author. Both approaches, obviously, are valid. -- Lee

Sinta	14 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight The Thoth deck is not for the faint hearted that is true, but it at least it's not filled with fantasy, giddy cartoon figures. It's marvelous! That's the same feeling I got and I think why i was drawn to it. The imagery looked painted with an artist's eye. Beautiful and within there are meanings that might be hidden or right there before us, we just might not see. It's a serious deck, that's for sure. Quote: Originally posted by Lee As you'll see in the threads I've linked to above, there are plenty of people who don't feel comfortable with it and won't use the deck for that reason, I wonder if I fall in that category. I do believe at the moment I just might. It's a wonderful deck, yet at this present time, it's beauty cannot remove the wariness I have around me. Thanks for the links! I'll be reading up on it. I want to be sure, nothing will manifest through the cards created by him. :) At the end I like cards that are mine and listen to me.... not some infamous dead guy ;) Sinta~

Teal	14 Oct 2002
Crowley wrote the Satanist's Bible, didn't he?

Demonesse	14 Oct 2002
The man was way ahead of his time and is recognised as one of the most brilliant minds in the esoteric arts. ---Mystique Moonlight I don't know about that. I do believe he had some powers, although I think they were over-hyped to seem larger than life - I wouldn't call him one of the most "brilliant minds" in esoterica, any more than I'd brand Anton LaVey (who wrote the Satanic Bible and some of the later "workbooks") "THE new Devil", or something...personally, I think Crowley was part quack; there are records (If I'm not wrong) about him selling his, ahem, 'reproductive fluid' as a mystical potion after interest in him had faded, as well as similar desperate attempts. Deck-wise, it's quite a nice deck, but as far as the art goes, it'll never be my favourite.

Teal	14 Oct 2002
*'reproductive fluid' as a mystical potion* Sounds like one of my ex-husbands! LOL

ihcoyc	14 Oct 2002
I read all the Crowley I could get my hands on back when I was in college. I still think of him as my wicked Uncle Al. Uncle Al had a sense of humour like mine. This means that you should take just about anything he says with a nine pound sack of salt. He was not above inserting jokers into even things like his table of correspondences (which is called 777: perhaps the best thing ever done in this line, but still. . .) and putting statements in his publications for outrageous effect. (Like the bit about "a male child of perfect innocence and high intelligence" being the perfect victim for a magical sacrifice. He's actually talking about semen here.) If anything, I recommend reading his rather long autobiography, the "Confessions." It does hit the main points of his thinking. The actual life story may be mostly self-aggrandizing bunk, but the book is full of entertaining stories, odd opinions, and strong prose. Crowley, whatever else you may say of him, was one of the last victims of a real classical education. The man can write when he puts his mind to it. I have his deck. It is interesting to look at, but it has too much built-in system in it for me to be comfortable reading with it. I like what he did with the Devil card, hate what he did to Strength.

Laurel	14 Oct 2002
Anton LaVey wrote _The Satanic Bible_ actually. Crowley's most famous book is "The Law Is For All" which was an 'inspired/channeled' text claiming in a nutshell that the patriarchal Aeon of Osiris was over and the Aeon of Horus was upon us. Its the foundational text for Thelema and its from this book that the famous saying "Love Is The Law, Love Under Will" comes from. His next more famous book is "The Book of Thoth" of which the Thoth tarot is the companion. Neither Crowley or the Thoth tarot are really that sinister unless you let them be :) Ozzie Osborne probably did even more shocking things in his own heyday and look at him now. LOL. The Thoth tarot is an excellent "occult" deck, if one is interested in studying Ceremonial magic. Its pretty and deeply symbolic and works just fine for a lot of people who don't study the occult. But its not for everyone. Some people just don't like the artwork, or are repelled by the symbolism.

Teal	14 Oct 2002
Thank you Laurel! I'm glad someone was able to direct me right on that one! Sorry to be so mistaken, to all who like the deck. Teal

Jeannette	14 Oct 2002
Sinta: I think that when approaching the Thoth deck, it's also important to keep in mind that Crowley himself did not actually illustrate the cards. He may have directed their design, but it was Lady Frieda Harris that imbued them with life, and probably at least part of their "power." My own stance on the "Crowley question" is quite neutral, but I feel very drawn to how Lady Harris executed Crowley's "vision." In one sense, I tend to view Crowley as being one step removed from his own tarot, by virtue of the fact that he did not paint the cards himself. There's nothing wrong with that, of course -- if one isn't talented in that area, it's better to give such projects to competent artists, IMHO. But I do think the argument can be made that there is more of Lady Harris' "essence" in the Thoth deck that of Crowley for that reason. So maybe the "pull" that you are feeling could just as well be the result of the love and energy that Lady Harris put into the project, and not so much the energies, whether positive or negative, of Crowley himself. Just a thought... -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

MystiqueMoonlight	14 Oct 2002
Goodness gracious me :) Where do I begin..... Firstly in my defense I just want to begin by saying I'm not exactly elevating Crowley to sainthood merely by suggesting some of the stories about him are "mythical" (of course the reproductive fluid story sounds like a real true one haha, no offense Demonesse or Lee :)) But it does bring to mind two points:- a) did they have the technology back then to preserve semen? and b) we preserve semen now for the benefit of procreation and not many people in the general public seem to have a problem with that.. IMO it would not be valid to discount the fact that Crowley did indeed design the Thoth deck even though he did not paint them. "In one sense, I tend to view Crowley as being one step removed from his own tarot, by virtue of the fact that he did not paint the cards himself. There's nothing wrong with that, of course -- if one isn't talented in that area, it's better to give such projects to competent artists, IMHO. But I do think the argument can be made that there is more of Lady Harris' "essence" in the Thoth deck that of Crowley for that reason." - (quoted Jeannette and/or Lori) To remove Crowley from the very deck he envisaged and created (after all it was Crowley who explained to Lady Harris via many correspondences and meetings what he wanted to see on the cards) would be like removing Waite from his because Pamela Smith painted the RiderWaite Deck. Does this remove Waite's essence from them? Crowley was very particular about HIS deck and what was to take several months took several years for him to create with Lady Frieda Harris' artistic help. The "energies" in the deck are more likely imagined via the stories and subsequent reputation of it's creator. Let's not forget the Thoth deck was not published until after Crowley's death. He did not even get to see them published. It's almost like saying you don't like a particular name because you knew a kid in school with that name and that name is forever tainted and all people who have that name have the same persona.

Kitty	14 Oct 2002
I have the thoth, started to use it a few months ago. I also have a strange pull towards the deck. It gives me a feeling like none of the others. Personally I love the deck, the images are above all other decks (imo). But I find that I can only use it when I have alot of energy, otherwise I find it overwhelming. Crowley? Don't know alot about him, have read a little, plan to read some more, all I can say is "Interesting character...."

Jeannette	14 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight IMO it would not be valid to discount the fact that Crowley did indeed design the Thoth deck even though he did not paint them. MystiqueMoonlight: Allow me to clarify. I do not discount the fact that Crowley designed the cards, and that it was largely, if not entirely, his vision that was expressed in the final result. My comment that Crowley is "one step removed" from his tarot refers to the realities of the "communication" process. If we can safely assume that Crowley was attempting to communicate something via the Thoth deck, then he is the "giver" of the message, and the tarot reader/viewer is the "receiver." But between the giver and the receiver there exists the medium through which the message is transmitted. In the case of the Thoth tarot, I believe it can be argued that Lady Harris effectively functioned as the "medium." Furthermore, I think it's possible to argue that the nature of the medium can have an effect on the message. This may not always be the case, but in any communication scenario, the possibility definitely exists. For example, think about how the same story is often told and/or received differently in book form versus in movie form. Changes to the story (or "the message") occur, either inadvertently or deliberately, when a book is made into a film (or vice-versa). The different natures of the two media typically necessitate it. In the case of the Crowley-Harris collaboration, the issue becomes more complex, because the medium has an additional "human" element to it. Even if Crowley were an acomplished artist, and was capable of painting the Thoth tarot himself, do you think it would look exactly like the one that Lady Harris produced? Or even close, stylistically speaking? The same symbolic elements would be there, perhaps in closely the same arrangement, and even the same colors. But would every line, every shade, every nuance duplicate Harris' work? Such a possibility would seem highly unlikely. Likewise, is it possible that Lady Harris could detach herself from her own artistic style and vision as to create a tarot exactly as Crowley envisioned it -- nothing more, and nothing less -- with absolutely none of her own heart-and-soul in it at all? Perhaps -- but again, it strikes me as highly unlikely. There is something about "true" art that seems to require that the artist imbue it with at least some piece of his/her psyche or soul. To do otherwise would render the result staid and lifeless. Thus, while I would once again wholeheartedly agree that it would be a grevious error to state that Crowley had little-to-no influence of the creation of the Thoth tarot -- so, too, would it be erroneous to state that Lady Harris' own vision, even if strictly "artistic" in nature, had no influence or impact on the final product, and how it is perceived by the viewer. My use of the word "energies" -- such an imprecise term, really -- were intended to refer to the combination of psychological, emotional, and intuitional elements that each collaborator brought to the Thoth tarot project, and are thus variously expressed therein. To me, the metaphysics of Waite and Crowley are of approximately equal value to the "earnest seeker." And yet, I much prefer to use the Thoth deck for readings over the Rider-Waite. The reason? Lady Harris' artwork "speaks" to me much more deeply than that of Pamela Coleman Smith. For many others, the reverse is true. How can we not say, then, that the work of the artist has no impact? The "essences" of Waite and Crowley are, IMO, so deeply dependent upon the artists who executed their respective visions that I stand by my original assertion that Crowley is "one step removed" from his own tarot. This does not mean that I believe his vision is not strongly or accurately represented therein. I mean only that whether that vision has the intended impact with the viewer may largely rest elsewhere. -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

AmounrA	14 Oct 2002
Firstly I would like to second Ihcoyc's recomendation to read 'confessions', his story in his words. Crowley had a fantastic sense of humour and also liked to upset people....be it his local chess club , the alpine club, the golden dawn, Italy...etc... but he had a heart of gold....even if he could be a right Ba___rd at times ! In my mind he was the magick equivilent of an Einstien. Not to be worshiped, but certainly worthly of great respect.

MystiqueMoonlight	15 Oct 2002
Jeanette/and or Lori; Ok sure I understand your point which you have so elequently made :), I definetly do not discount Lady Harris' influence on the Thoth deck. Truly can it be said, and by all intents and purposes I think you are expressing, Lady Harris was indeed an incredible artist with, as far as I understood through my studies, a growing understanding of the esoteric values of the Tarot during her time spent painting the cards. However that esoteric growth was largely because of Crowley. Perhaps your point can be said the same of the RiderWaite deck? I too choose to use the Thoth deck largely because of the comparisons between the two which you made. (...."And yet, I much prefer to use the Thoth deck for readings over the Rider-Waite. The reason? Lady Harris' artwork "speaks" to me much more deeply than that of Pamela Coleman Smith....."), but I wouldn't say it is because of the influence of the artist alone. Yes I agree the artist does leave an impression on the work they do (I am an artist so I hope that is correct :) ), but in this instance it is important to understand that the message conveyed is that of the creator, as I think you have said. By the way thanks for such an intelligent and academic debate....it's always nice to engage in discussions such as these without anyone taking anything to heart personally :) I look forward to seeing you in the next round ;)

Jeannette	15 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight ...Lady Harris was indeed an incredible artist with, as far as I understood through my studies, a growing understanding of the esoteric values of the Tarot during her time spent painting the cards...However that esoteric growth was largely because of Crowley. In all fairness, I might point out that there are those who would disagree. (See, for example, The Crowley Tarot by Akron and Banzhaf, in which the claim is made that the "Crowley" Thoth tarot should be more properly "be called the Harris Tarot"). Although speaking for myself, I'd assert that you are essentially correct. Quote: Perhaps your point can be said the same of the RiderWaite deck? Yes, IMHO, absolutely. Quote: I too choose to use the Thoth deck largely because of the comparisons between the two which you made... but I wouldn't say it is because of the influence of the artist alone. I do agree. The point of my original post, however, was to address Sinta's ambivalent remarks about the Thoth deck. The fact that Sinta was both drawn to and made uneasy by the Crowley deck at the same time is but another manifestation of the paradox that is the Thoth tarot. The debate has been rehashed a thousand times on a hundred chat boards, and in the reference literature as well. In most cases (though certainly not all), the discussion tends to focus on the question that, in its concise form, is stated as "Aleister Crowley -- Magickal Genius or Sinister Sorcerer?" For those who take the "genius" side, most seem to find great attraction in the Crowley deck. Those opting for the "sinister" view are more likely to dislike, or at least feel uncomfortable with, the Thoth. However, I think there's a third possible view of the issue that's rarely, if ever, brought forth. This is the view I personally hold, which is: the debate is subjective, and therefore never entirely to be resolved. Thus, the two sides cancel each other out, and make the issue moot. The result of this "cancellation" potentially renders the Thoth deck as simply being "irrelevant," for those of us who fall into this category. And yet, I do not see the Thoth tarot as irrelevant. As I stated before, on the rare occasions when I read, it is actually my preferred reading deck. So, then, we have another paradox: how is it that someone who could care less about Crowley's personal approach to magickal studies, and who simply views his contributions to such studies as one among many valid and occasionally useful data, feel so strongly drawn to that particular deck? For diehard Crowleyists, I expect Crowley could have created a set of cards decorated with nothing more than crude chicken scratches, and, as long as he documented the ideas behind his work (which he did), they would make a good personal "connection" with the Thoth deck. On the other hand, for those who experience a strong negative reaction to the work-of-and-legend-which-is-Crowley, I should suppose that the Thoth deck could be illustrated with the most beautiful imagery known to humankind, and the chances would still be high that the anti-Crowley contingent would find the deck "uncomfortable" to work with. But then, what about "the rest of us?" For those of us who know and love the Crowley deck, but hold no particular strong feelings one way or the other about Crowley and his philosophies, there must be something more to Crowley's deck than what Crowley himself put into it. Where else could that element have come from, other than Lady Harris? In my reply to Sinta, it was my wish to reinsert Lady Harris into the discussion, because I feel she is too often (though again, I admit, not always) ignored. So, if Sinta is subject to "uneasiness" when working with the Thoth, yet is still drawn to it, my advice was: forget Crowley. Focus on Harris. I see it as being perfectly legitimate to approach the Thoth tarot with Harris' contributions in mind, even to the point of ignoring Crowley's. Simply enjoy the power of the images. If Crowley helped Harris to "draw out" that power, well -- that's just fine and dandy. But in the final analysis, I think it's perfectly legitimate to say that if it wasn't for Lady Harris, the Thoth tarot would not be as we know it today. Quote: Yes I agree the artist does leave an impression on the work they do... but in this instance it is important to understand that the message conveyed is that of the creator, as I think you have said. Yes -- or at least, so the creator would hope. Once again, personally speaking, I must say I find the "impression" left by the artist to have a much stronger effect on me than Crowley's own "message." I'm sure it would irk Crowley no end to hear someone state that the medium overshadowed his message, but in my own case, I expect there's a fair amount of truth in that statement. Quote: By the way thanks for such an intelligent and academic debate....it's always nice to engage in discussions such as these without anyone taking anything to heart personally I look forward to seeing you in the next round. Round two -- there you go, my friend. Have at it! :D -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

MystiqueMoonlight	15 Oct 2002
Well Jeanette I'm bushed just reading your post....phew! Your point is well received and understood...thanks again for such an enlightened response....:)

Sullanciri2002	15 Oct 2002
or is it a strictly personal discussion (LOL). Perhaps the whole question is irrelevant, as the Thoth was actually released a while after both Crowley & Harris died ... and I do seem to recall that Crowley wasn't happy with the cards when he died: in light of that aspect, the Thoth is actually quite removed from Crowley, as it still didn't fully fit with what he had in mind - what Lady Harris had painted, was a good step in the right direction ... but the deck was far from finished or properly done when Crowley died.

WolfSpirit	15 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Teal *'reproductive fluid' as a mystical potion* Sounds like one of my ex-husbands! LOL :D :D mwahahahahaha }) BTW I did read all the serious posts as well, very interseting, very good thread but I don't have much to add as I don't know much about the subject. I am now really inclined to read more of/about Crowley with the comments in mind you all made here. I'm still not really eager to buy the deck, the Strength card is often one of my favourites but I don't like the strength in this deck (as someone else mentioned as well)

Lee	15 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Jeannette and/or Lori In most cases (though certainly not all), the discussion tends to focus on the question that, in its concise form, is stated as "Aleister Crowley -- Magickal Genius or Sinister Sorcerer?" For those who take the "genius" side, most seem to find great attraction in the Crowley deck. Those opting for the "sinister" view are more likely to dislike, or at least feel uncomfortable with, the Thoth. I'd like to point out that at least for some people, discomfort with the Thoth deck is not caused solely by Crowley's reputation but by Harris's art itself. For some, the art is definitely an acquired taste. When I first saw these cards, I hated them, and I knew nothing about Crowley. Since then I have gradually come to respect, admire and like the art, but I'll never love it. Some find it to be hallucinatory and slightly sickening, with shapes that seem to swirl around the cards with a malevolent life of their own. All this is of course highly objective, but I just wanted to point out that Crowley's reputation is not the only reason that some people don't feel drawn to these cards. -- Lee

Jeannette	15 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight Well Jeanette I'm bushed just reading your post....phew! LOL! I'm not surprised... in addition to the fact that my "discussion"-type posts tend to run long, I also seem to have a tendency to use very loooooong sentences. That probably would leave just about any reader "pooped." :D Quote: Your point is well received and understood...thanks again for such an enlightened response.... Enlightened response? Oooo... I like the sound of that much better than "long winded." ;) Seriously, though, thanks for the reply, and for the excuse to get the "intellectual juices" flowing for a bit. I admit that in such discussions, most, if not all, of what I post is just personal opinion, and therefore subject to all sorts of flaws and room for disagreement. But it's fun to take a run at thinking the topic through and seeing what comes out in the final post. Thanks for providing another such opportunity. -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

Jeannette	15 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Lee I'd like to point out that at least for some people, discomfort with the Thoth deck is not caused solely by Crowley's reputation but by Harris's art itself. For some, the art is definitely an acquired taste... I can see that. I didn't mean to imply that Lady Harris' artwork exhibited undisputed brilliance or appeal. Simply that her art makes a contribution to the Thoth tarot beyond that of Crowley, and that the result has an effect on the viewer. For me, that result is positive. For you, it was obviously not so positive. Either way, the point is made. Perhaps even strengthened, assuming we both have similar ambivalent/neutral feelings about Crowley and his work. My interpretation of the original post was that Sinta was looking for a way to embrace the Thoth tarot. But of course, the opposite could be true. Which is it, Sinta? Forgetting Crowley completely for the moment, what do you think about the Thoth artwork itself? Maybe the answer to that simple question will go a long way to resolving your own confusion and "inner conflict" regarding the Thoth deck. -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

Jeannette	15 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Sullanciri2002 ...I do seem to recall that Crowley wasn't happy with the cards when he died: in light of that aspect, the Thoth is actually quite removed from Crowley, as it still didn't fully fit with what he had in mind - what Lady Harris had painted, was a good step in the right direction ... but the deck was far from finished or properly done when Crowley died. Do you suppose -- and I ask this sincerely, and not at all rhetorically -- that anyone who is passionate about a project or creation, perhaps to the point of near-obsession, is ever completely satisfied with the results? Is it possible that if Crowley possessed the skills to paint his own tarot, that he would have been able to render it in such a way that he could have eventually said to himself, "there, it's done -- perfect!"? Creators of all stripes -- artists, writers, filmmakers, knitters, you-name-it -- have all been prone to that general self-critique: "yeah, it's finished... but...". Were Crowley not "one step removed" from his own tarot, to use my previous phrase, could he have achieved an end-result in the Thoth tarot that completely and accurately captured the all ideas he wished to express? -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

Laurel	15 Oct 2002
An interesting side note is that Lady Frieda Harris was a co-mason, and a great fan of Rudolf Steiner. She avidly studied Projective Synthetic Geometry (ased upon the teachings of both Steiner and Goethe) from Olive Whicher and George Adams. She was a supposed to be a very talented student and had informed Whicher that she was incorporating some geometric designs into the Thoth tarot. With any other artist, the Thoth would have been a completely different deck. Laurel

MystiqueMoonlight	15 Oct 2002
Just a brief comment regarding Crowley not being totally satisfied with the deck.....I tend to agree with comments Jeanette made in this regard. I'm an artist and I can tell you I've NEVER been satisfied with the final result....I am always on the look out to produce someting better

zander770	02 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Laurel Ozzie Osborne probably did even more shocking things in his own heyday and look at him now. LOL. did you all know that ozzy owns an autographed copy of _the law is for all_? true! 770

The Thoth Deck - A. Crowley (Eerie?) thread was originally posted on 14 Oct 2002 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.