Builders of The Adytum, B.O.T.A.

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 17 Nov 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Talisman	17 Nov 2002
'Lo all, I have completed a review of this deck, which Solandia posted. Frankly, however, I know little about B.O.T.A. I simply reviewed the deck I purchased -- very inexpensively -- which came shrink-wrapped without box or booklet. I got it simply for a deck one can color for ones self. Fun! I am not being modest. Like Mark Twain, I guess I was born that way, but quickly got over it. Talisman

Pollux	17 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Talisman I am not being modest. Like Mark Twain, I guess I was born that way, but quickly got over it. *ROFLOL* Well, I think we love you all the same! ;) *LOL* One day I'll get my BOTA too, and colour it, but not before reading and learning a bit more than I do... that is, nothing right now! *LOL* I just think the idea of colouring them yourself is great for further tarot study. And the cards are brim full of symbolism anyway - recently I dreamed the emperor card on my deck, asking me to colour it with pencils... ODD :P

Diana	17 Nov 2002
I like your review, Talisman. Almost makes me want to buy one for myself. But I'd prefer a colour-me-in Marseilles deck. I have a beautiful BIG box of crayons which would be just perfect. Sigh, I suppose if I want one, I'll have to make it myself.

Lee	17 Nov 2002
Nice review, Talisman. Here's a link to it, for everyone's reading pleasure! :) -- Lee

zander770	17 Nov 2002
:confused: i couldn't even read past the third paragraph of this "review..." for someone to make "blanket statements" (e.g., "The cards in the Major Arcana are so similar, this might be the first Smith-Waite "clone." " they are COMPLETELY "different," in almost every way! "There are differences. The Death card, for example, depicts a skeleton walking through a wasteland past severed heads and body parts. .." that's "different"?!!? AND the fact that "the skeleton's body/spine" is COMPLETELY TWISTED," etc (gee...wonder what THAT means?) AND that there's a "bean" rather than a "sun" in the upper-left hand corner, AND that there's . . . "It seems this deck also is available with an instruction booklet written by Case and describing the cards and giving coloring instructions. I haven't seen this booklet. But, mystery tradition aside, if you want an original self-colored deck, why follow someone else's instructions?" it "seems"?!? paul foster case ALSO happened to write a FEW BOOKS on the topic, too! ann davis? p.d. ouspensky? manly p. hall? anyone? ANYONE?!!? check 'em out? the "instructions" are Very Important!!! there're PURPOSEFULL, IMPORTANT REASONS why they're "colored" in such a manner?!? i SERIOUSLY WARN people NOT to just run off, ad hock, w/a set of crayola's and merely "color" this deck! for the life of me, i cannot understand why some people--not solely talisman--continue to WANT TO review decks, esp from secret societies, or qaballa based decks, which they know absolutely nothing about, let alone publish their REVIEWS?!? why? to what end? there, lee; is that "sanitized" enough, for you? i certainly hope so. i do not think that i am "flaming" anyone! this is my opinion, simply stated. i'll make a copy of it, though, as well, for My Records. ~Z~770 :confused:

Keslynn	17 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by zander770 for the life of me, i cannot understand why some people--not solely talisman--continue to WANT TO review decks, esp from secret societies, or qaballa based decks, which they know absolutely nothing about, let alone publish their REVIEWS?!? why? to what end? So wait, someone should have to be Celtic or very schooled in Celtic history before using a Celtic themed deck? Only pagans should use pagan decks? Only Christians should use saint tarots? Only Golden Dawn initiates should use the Waite-Smith or Crowley decks? I think not. Who's to say that they're not getting something out of these decks? Some people are only interested in learning enough about another area - qabalah, astrology, GD stuff - to enrich tarot experience. Thus, learning all the "extraneous" stuff isn't necessary since it doesn't apply to tarot. I personally am not willing to dedicate myself to an order to enjoy a specific deck, and I think it's ridiculous to ask others to. You may feel that you get more from secret order decks since you know more about them, but that doesn't mean that other people get nothing at all from them. Each person's experience is unique. Don't be so dogmatic. You'll miss out on a lot. Also, if you don't like Talisman's review, then write your own. You're entitled to give your opinion of this deck as well as anyone else. :) Kes

Lee	17 Nov 2002
[quote]Originally posted by zander770 Quote: Why? What will happen? Will I get blasted by lightning if I color a BOTA deck without reading the instruction booklet? How about if I follow the instruction booklet but change one color? Quote: People write and publish reviews to share their opinions with others who are interested in reading them. When a deck creator and publisher make a decision to publish their deck and sell it to the general public, and presumably make a profit from it, then as far as I'm concerned, they have no cause to complain if a reviewer states his or her opinions about it, whether the reviewer is knowledgeable about secret societies or not. If I want to review a published deck, I certainly have no obligation to undertake a course of study or to read specific books before I write the review. In Western society, we have freedom of speech and freedom of the press. If the secret societies don't want their works reviewed, then they're perfectly free not to sell them to the public. If you don't want to read others' reviews, there's a simple solution: don't read them. Keslynn made an excellent point. You can criticize Talisman's review all you want, but the fact remains that he's done something you haven't; he's taken the time and expended the effort to write a review, and he's submitted it to Solandia so it can be posted for all to see. If you're as knowledgeable as you say you are, why not write your own review and share your knowledge? I for one would look forward to reading it. Quote: Yes, thank you! :) -- Lee

zorya	17 Nov 2002
in the review, i found talisman to be very honest and humble about his knowledge of b.o.t.a. he did not pretend to be someone he is not. would a member of a secret order give an unbiased review of their deck? it is possible, but expertise does not automatically imply an objective review. when i read a review, i expect to read someone's OPINION. how i use that opinion, is up to me.

jmd	17 Nov 2002
When the BOTA established a branch in Melbourne over ten years ago, I was one of its foundation group - I find Talisman's review highly accurate. The BOTA deck is definitely very similar to the Waite/Colman-Smith. It is true that Case has written a few excellent books, as did Waite. The main difference between Case's and Waite's is the representation on only two cards: Death and the Sun (in each Case reverting to the earlier - Waite for it: Marseilles!). In terms of details, even the Shin and the Fire emblem upon the Fool have been copied from the Waite. It is certainly a deck Wirth having - but one also definitely based on the Waite (it should also be remembered that Case was one of the few expelled from the Golden Dawn).

Sea Sprite	17 Nov 2002
Hi Talisman, I like your review! Now I'm gonna have to add this to my wishlist. :)

zander770	18 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Keslynn So wait, someone should have to be Celtic or very schooled in Celtic history before using a Celtic themed deck? Only pagans should use pagan decks? Only Christians should use saint tarots? this is the epitome of dogma, isn't it? i think that someone/anyone should, yes, at the very least, know the reasons why/for "coloring the b.o.t.a. deck" in such a manner, and why the colors are particular and important before criticizing them, yes, or expounding, in any way, such as in some sort of public review, YES. but, that's just me, i guess. i like to be accurate in my statements. ~Z~770

zander770	18 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Lee Why? What will happen? Will I get blasted by lightning if I color a BOTA deck without reading the instruction booklet? well...one can hope, can't they? }) listen: if one wants to "color their own deck" (i continue to put "color" in quotations, since one PAINTS the b.o.t.a. deck, but, nevermind) they can certainly make-up one of their own, right? in fact, i think that there's a thread, just for that, on this very site. chk it out . . . have some (a little?) respect for case and the b.o.t.a., could you? he put his very LIFE into this work, for others, ya know? thanks, a lot. ~Z~770

zander770	18 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by jmd (it should also be remembered that Case was one of the few expelled from the Golden Dawn). :confused: this is inaccurate. case resigned from the order in 1922. also, i always appreciated the tetragrammaton on the fool's collar, myself. ~Z~770

Keslynn	18 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by zander770 this is the epitome of dogma, isn't it? i think that someone/anyone should, yes, at the very least, know the reasons why/for "coloring the b.o.t.a. deck" in such a manner, and why the colors are particular and important before criticizing them, yes, or expounding, in any way, such as in some sort of public review, YES. but, that's just me, i guess. i like to be accurate in my statements. ~Z~770 Accuracy has nothing to do with personal meaning. And as far as I noticed, Talisman made no claims to expounding upon anything but his opinion. It is your opinion that Case's colors are the correct ones, just as it is Talisman's that people should color the deck according to personal preference or artistic inspiration. Face it, this is an issue of belief/reverence. Not everyone thinks of the Golden Dawn and Case as you do. Nor can you make them. And having different beliefs does not make them stupid or less of a person. There are tons of cases of people viewing other people's reverence objects in a different way, but what can you do? With issues like these, you simply must agree to disagree. And as I said before, you're welcome to submit your own opinion in a review. :) Kes

Kiama	18 Nov 2002
Well, I found Talisman's review very helpful. AND ISN'T THAT ALL THAT MATTERS: That somebody like me, who knows very little about BOTA or Golden Dawn, can be introduced to the BOTA deck in a friendly and easy to understand way, without the reviewer going throuhg ten million pages of olden Dawn teachings? Thankyou, Talisman, for another wonderful review! Keep 'em coming! Kiama *Off to find a BOTA deck to colour with Crayolas.*

Liliana	18 Nov 2002
you know zander, if you dont like Talismans review GO WRITE YIOUR OWN :) :THP

Laurel	18 Nov 2002
I did not perceive any disrespect for Case or BOTA in this thread, in the review itself. My thoughts are in line with Jmd's. Now, I have -three- copies of the BOTA deck. The big ones they sent me while I was a member, and two smaller decks, one colored "traditionally" and heavily meditated on... one colored for my own personal insights and heavily mediated on... and I can say that ultimately, I became more knowledgeable and filled with more understanding by doing both. Compared to say the Thoth deck or Wang's Golden Dawn, or the GD deck the Ciceros came out with, the BOTA and the RW appear ~very~ similar. One of them is simply more symbolically "correct" by the Golden Dawn's internal standards. However, we've learned a great deal about symbology and spiritual psychology in the past 30 years and know things that the original Golden Dawn didn't. Laurel

The Builders of The Adytum, B.O.T.A. thread was originally posted on 17 Nov 2002 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.