English Tarot

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 18 Dec 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Osher	18 Dec 2002
Are there any Tarot themed around England, or even London? Would the Victoria Regina fulfil this catagory?

Maan	18 Dec 2002
Well there is ofcourse the old english tarot. I don;t have that one myself but ist really pretty i especially like the backs. And the glastonbury tarot is all about glastonbury so english it is abd i like this deck. Its a real comforting deck :)

oceanpoetry	18 Dec 2002
I have this deck and am really happy with it. Maggie Kneen (the artist) has taken great care creating the medieval scenes on the cards. These cards appeal to me the pictures are inviting and pleasing. Also I find the soft colors used make this an especially easy deck to work with for readings and meditation.

Pollux	19 Dec 2002
Mh... Themed around England? There also is the Legend Arthurian and a couple of other arthurian ones, and the Shakesperian. I think the prettiest would be Glastonbury, and Old English too - both on my wish list :D *LOL*

jlbvt	19 Dec 2002
Maggie Nneen's Old English Tarot will be in my stocking, I will let you know how I like it as soon as I have a good look at it! ;)

Macavity	19 Dec 2002
The OE has to be now a favourite from my small collection. One thing I didn't know (in advance) was that the images are based on the "Luttrell Psalter", so they certainly look very authentic and are quite exquisite. Some remarks (from my finite knowledge) The card scheme is Rider-Waite, but minors are (essentially) "pip" cards. Fwiw, there are charming small illustrations at the bottom of the minor cards that may (sometimes!) help with a RW meaning. Relative beginners (like me) might bear this in mind? (Or save this one "for Best"?) The LWB is essentially a cut-down version of the Universal Waite book. ;) Some highlights (for me) are Maggie K's adoption of some Marseille imagery, within a RW numbering scheme - Best of both worlds? Also a wacky blue Devil and cute lil' beasties on the Wheel. Two of the Pages are GIRLS (I think!) for a change. A minor gripe is the very distinguished but also rather "indistinguishable" high-priestess - A missed opportunity of an Abbess figure? Can't have everything! Finally a real treat in the characters on a THREE person "Lovers" card - Boy does THAT guy look worried! "Beam me up Scotty"? :D Mac (gratuitous rave over)

Osher	19 Dec 2002
I'd never even thought about the Old English deck. Yet, having seen everyone's comments, and looked at the pictures, yes, it is a definately a deck worth considering. Oh dear, another deck to add to my wish list.... Still, thanks everybody. Still, a deck based on London could be a good idea...

wavebreaker	19 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Happiness Still, a deck based on London could be a good idea... Or a Dickens deck... ;)

Osher	19 Dec 2002
A Dickens deck? Hmmm, interesting. Any ideas as to which characters to represent which cards? I was thinking about London through the ages for a deck. I can think of a couple of people who could be The Fool (although one could also be The Devil). Except, The Chariot would be stuck in a traffic jam....! Actually, there is a famous statue of Boudica on a chariot in London, and I can't claim to have ever seen a female charioteer (which will now cause 20 people to tell me about decks with female charioteers!) Just had a humourous thought: a card of Boudica on a chariot stuck in a traffic jam, with a parking ticket. Sorry, warped London humour. (FYI Boudica led a revolt by the ancient Britons against the Romans, and sacked London and other cities)

wavebreaker	19 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Happiness A Dickens deck? Hmmm, interesting. Any ideas as to which characters to represent which cards? No, I haven't thought about that. I guess many of Dickens' main characters could represent the Fool... ;) It's just that I thought of Dickensian London when you mentioned a deck based on London. Don't know why... I guess it's because Dickens' vivid, realistic descriptions of the city have always appealed to me.

Trish	19 Dec 2002
A Dickens deck? That would be neat! ;-) That Shakespearean deck looks beautiful too ... and of course I just LOVE Shakespeare! I think I might like the OE too. Oh yeah! There's also the 'Lord Of The Rings' Tarot, based on the trilogy by Tolkien. A historical London deck would be cool too. You could have Jack the Ripper as Death! muhahaha!

Osher	19 Dec 2002
Jack the Ripper as Death? Good one, although thinking how death is also rebirth it could also be the great fire, the great plague, the great stink, or the Blitz, all of whom caused killed many, but also changed London life or buildings. I would prefer Jack as the Devil. His reputation today is worse than reality (the average serial killer these days kills far more!), and his killings was associated with prostitution, which of course fits the Devil far better.

Trish	19 Dec 2002
Wow! I was actually thinking the Devil for Jack too, but it was a toss-up between that and Death. :P Dun know why Death won out. After what you said though, I do think the Devil suits him better. ;) hehe!

wavebreaker	20 Dec 2002
How about the Tower of London as the Tower? I guess you could say that the people brought there as prisoners in the past had a terrible Tower experience there... ;) And Queen Elizabeth I as the High Priestess??

Pollux	20 Dec 2002
Kensington Gradens and the Serpentine, with Peter Pan dancing and the other girl (forgot the name :P *LOL*) in "Peter Pan and the Kensington Gardens", the first book by Barrie?, would be a nice sun card. Harrods is the Star... :P *LOL* The World is the Greenwich Millenium Dome.

wavebreaker	20 Dec 2002
The London Eye as the Wheel of Fortune... ;)

Osher	20 Dec 2002
The Old Bailey as Justice of course. I think Monument would be a better Tower though. It is a thin, tall, tower built to mark the site of the begining of the great fire. A perfect tower I think, incorporating both a physical tower, but also the idea of rebuilding out of disaster. Maybe the tower of London (or the ancient scaffolds at Tyburn) could provide a Hanged Man? Harrods as the Star? Errr, I can't follow that, sorry. Dick Whittington as The Fool of course, in fact, I suspect that the Fool in Tarot is based on Dick Whittington (or vice versa). I mean, choices, turning around, the cat, over coming adversity. What do you think of the Thames Barrier as temperance ? (a giant barrier that can be raised from the river bed to stop the occasional freak high tides flooding London). Or maybe Greenwich, and the split between east and west would be better?

baba-prague	20 Dec 2002
Er em, we have actually already begun a Tarot of London (I lived in London for years, in Wapping, which is one of the oldest, most interesting parts - just beside the old City too) and so we decided that we will produce Tarot of London after Tarot of Prague. However, we were not going to announce this until it's a lot further on! (it's too early as yet and we didn't want to overshadow the Tarot of Prague in any way - after all, nowadays Prague is my home town). So - not sure what to say really. Please don't say we leapt on the idea - I think it's just a case of "great minds thinking alike" LOL! The way we are doing it will be a bit different to some of the ideas here (which are great, but it's just that we are more into things like the Golden Baby little facade statue in the City that marks where the Great Fire of London started - how many people even know it's there? We're interested in some of the really very old and less well known features of the old city) We are making two trips back this winter to get good photographs so that we can go beyond planning and do some example cards. Anyway, if we end up with two Tarots of London, why not? I think ours will take a while - of course, tarots always do. Probably not out until 2004. Anyway, I'll duck back out of this forum now - I just didn't feel I could lurk and say nothing! By the way, the whole English history of Tarot makes this just such an interesting idea - I'm sort of surprised there aren't more English tarots.

wavebreaker	20 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by baba-prague We're interested in some of the really very old and less well known features of the old city) Oooh, that sounds great! Keep us posted! Quote: I think ours will take a while - of course, tarots always do. Probably not out until 2004. Sigh, that long? :( :D Edited to add: I only just noticed your website with the examples of the Tarot of Prague. I think it's great! And would love to see a similar deck on London!

Osher	20 Dec 2002
Oh cool, so there is going to be a London tarot after all! Well, you'll have at least one client queing up for a deck! Who knows, maybe there will be a second London tarot.....Need to decide where to stick the current mayor though , any suggestions ?! Am I mistaken, or does the golden baby mark where the great fire finished? The Monument marks the site of the bakers in Pudding Lane, of course. There are some great bosses and gargoyles in London that could provide some interesting backdrops to some cards too, and then there are the dragons and griffins that one finds all over London.

baba-prague	20 Dec 2002
You're right, the baby is where it finished. Thanks! Even when I was typing that I thought - is this quite right!? (haven't lived there for a while and need to brush up on some research I think). Maybe just a day walking around the City and Spitalfields and Wapping again is what's needed. There is so much extraordinary history around there. BTW, we already have some pictures of the GREAT griffons on Holborn Viaduct. I don't know if we'll use them but they are terrific - beautifully modelled and very strong looking. The comments about Brittania/Chariot are interesting. We were going to use a chariot on the top of the National Theatre in Prague (sorry, I'm talking about Tarot of Prague now). It is also driven by a woman (it actually looks very like some of the Brittania statues in London and I half wondered if there was some influence there - it's late 19th century and I'm sure that many Praguers at that time knew London well). Anyway, we couldn't get a photo we were happy with, but we still wanted to stick with the idea of a female charioteer - so eventually found a different figure and some wonderful sphinxes (we were in despair of finding sphinxes in Prague but the ones we eventually found are really interesting - huge bumble bees on their corsages being just one unusual feature). So - our Charioteer is female! To me it feels right. The only regret I now have is that we still haven't found a way of including Libuse - the female Celtic founder of Prague (who was also a seer and fortune-teller and daughter of an elf - in my opinion that's the kind of founder who results in a great city - whether she was real or not) As to where you should put the Major of London? I'll leave that up to you! I hear he's doing a great job ;-) Karen

baba-prague	20 Dec 2002
ps - oh, I don't mean a day to take the photos, I mean a day to remember again what's there. Judging by our experience here we will need literally thousands of photos, which is why I think the whole project will take a good year at least.

Osher	20 Dec 2002
Obviously the best chariot is that of Boudica on Westminster Bridge. It was made by Thomas Thornycroft, and erected in 1902. The statue is quite incorrect though, the chariot is the wrong type, and certainly didn't have knives on the side. Even her name is wrong, as she is commonly (but wrongly) known as Boadicea, a Romanization of her name. I could recommend some good books on London. The Encyclopaedia of London is excellent, and has just been reprinted. Hope this helps with the new Tarot

baba-prague	20 Dec 2002
Thanks for the suggestion. If I sound a bit vague about all this it's because I've been up to my ears in Prague for the last few months and am still very focused on that (one reason that I suppose we thought we'd lie low about Tarot of London for now). I've been reading things like Ackroyd's Biography of London, but not in a very serious way. Obviously we also need to take a trip - or several - to the Museum of London, but no time for that just yet. Researching Prague is one of those tasks that gets bigger the more you look which is why I still feel very immersed in it. There is a lot of myth around the city and that's fascinating, but it can also make things harder to sort out. When a perfectly sane and sensible young estate agent tells you that they have just seen - on a misty evening - a full 18th century ghostly funeral complete with plumed horses crossing Charles Bridge (no really - people do seem to see this sort of thing here, though why they see it I can't say - rational explanation is that the atmosphere is just so extraordinary that it sets the imagination working, but who can say) then you know you are somewhere where it's hard to sort hard fact from a type of "symbolic fact". It IS the wonderful thing about Prague, but also one of the things that makes it so different from London. Doing Tarot of London probably needs to be more about pulling out serious historical books like Ackroyd (and rereading Pepys of course) and going around the Globe and its environs, and less about immersion in the stories and myths of the place (though these are great too - I really would like to find a place for the Limehouse Rat!). So I think you're right, if I understand you to be saying that the work needs a grounding in real factual accuracy. It isn't that the same doesn't go for Prague, but here that factual accuracy is somehow more shifting - of course yes, you can find out exactly who was responsible for which statues on Charles Bridge, but how do you represent the sometimes quite strongly held belief that they all come alive and talk to each other on some quiet nights? (Well, we tried to convey this feeling, hope we in part succeeded). Anyway, we WILL pull ourselves into London mode and take the research seriously. It will be interesting to see how the cards turn out, I think the style will evolve into something a little different from Tarot of Prague, just because the cities are so unalike. I'll also be on Eclectic with samples at some point (probably in several months time) because the knowledge and enthusiasm here are so valuable. Sorry - overlong email! I promise to make Ackroyd my New Year reading. Karen

Osher	20 Dec 2002
The book I was refering to is another one, but OK. If you want some advice on London, places, stories, and so on, I'd be delighted to assist.

The English Tarot thread was originally posted on 18 Dec 2002 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.