Moving to (a) "Marseille"

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 20 Dec 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Macavity	20 Dec 2002
OK, sadly not to the South of France ;) But I have been trying to think about reading pip cards and specifically moving to a Marseille type deck. I have enough(!) reading material for my R/W and clones, so does anyone have any specific recommendations for books for reading methods with a Marseille deck? I am intrigued by allusions to numerology(?), colours(?). Any thoughts or ideas? Also a deck in light of the above? Fwiw, I have been rather taken by "Fournier" version (if available) as being a little more "3D" (prettier) than some others. Would that be TOO big a departure from tradition and negate the above techniques? Fwiw, I would like to go for as much authenticity in reading techniques or at least start in the "right" way. I am therefore content to be swayed by expert or purist opinion :D Macavity

Lee	21 Dec 2002
The only books in English that I know of about reading with non-illustrated-pip decks are Gail Fairfield's books, Choice-Centered Tarot (now republished as Everyday Tarot) and Choice-Centered Relating and the Tarot. Tom Tadfor Little is writing a book about it but it's not published yet. Fairfield uses strictly a numerological system which can be used for any non-illusrated deck. It's a very psychological approach, which may not satisfy if you're looking for more event-oriented meanings. I don't think there's any "right" way to do it. My guess would be the most "standardized" way to read a Marseilles deck would be to use Paul Marteau's book, which is unfortunately not available in English. I would think that that's what had the most influence in Europe on reading with Marseilles decks. As far as I understand (I don't read French and haven't read his book), this approach uses numerology as well as the specific decorative elements in traditional Marseilles decks. I don't know if that book is still available, but my guess would be that there are present-day French authors whose approach derives from Marteau. But, again, these authors are not available in English, so unless you read French or have a very good friend who reads French, you're out of luck. If you go to the Historical and Iconographic forum, and go to the Table of Contents post at the top, you'll find some threads in which several members describe how they do it. Some use a strictly numerological approach, some rely heavily on the specific decorative elements, some are influenced by standard R-W-S meanings. There also some threads in the Using Tarot forum, you can try doing a search on "non-illustrated" or "pips." In my opinion the Fournier qualifies as a traditional Marseilles. I believe the colors of the figures and the decorations are consistent with the Grimaud, which at this point is I believe a standard, especially if you use the Marteau approach. It's only the backgrounds that have new colors, I think. Hope this helps... -- Lee

Macavity	21 Dec 2002
I don't think your reply could have been much more comprehensive and useful! Thanks Lee - Particularly for the NAME leads and thread reference, which I shall follow up. My own French WAS "OKish" at one time (Having worked in a Francophone country, I certainly have LESS excuse than many Anglo Saxons? ;)) But it might also be another avenue to explore that I hadn't considered and would be an interesting exercise... I was inferring the Grimaud as "standard". The illustrations of the Fournier do seem indeed to retain most of the colours - Almost a "Universal Wait" of the Marseille world? I do suspect, much as the vanilla Colman Smith deck has grown on me, I will also get to appreciate the rather plainer lines of some of the older Marseille designs... Just breaking-in gently :) Thanks again. Mac

Lee	21 Dec 2002
Here's two French titles for you on the Marteau system, since you can read French. I got these from an article by James Revak in the ITS Newsletter from Winter 2000. Ancien Tarot de Marseilles by Paul Marteau, publisher Arts et Metiers Graphiques, ISBN 2082001385, possibly out of print. Corinne Morel, Les Arcanes mineurs: Le Guide du Tarot, publisher Bussiere, ISBN 285090077X. Revak also mentions the following authors who follow the broad outlines of the Marteau system: Jean-Pierre Bayard, Florence Eymon, Hades, and Colette Silvestre-Haeberle. If you end up reading any of these, perhaps you could do a nice long post summarizing the approach, for us non-French-speaking folks! :) -- Lee

ihcoyc	21 Dec 2002
The Corinne Morel book can be had from amazon.fr. There are a number of English books that are also geared towards the use of Marseilles styles. The one I would recommend most heartily is The Magical World of the Tarot by Gareth Knight. It is strongly rooted in visualisation techniques. Tarot Classic by Stuart Kaplan is also geared for use with a broadly Marseilles style deck, specifically the Tarot Classic deck from U.S. Games. It of course can be used with others; however, the text itself is a rather average collection of keywords. For collections of keywords, I prefer Anthony Louis's Tarot Plain and Simple, which also could be used with any deck, including a Marseilles style.

Kissa	21 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by ihcoyc The Corinne Morel book can be had from amazon.fr . Corinne Morel has written a three-tome "GUIDE DU TAROT" which first part is indeed "Arcanes Mineurs", then comes "Arcanes Majeurs" and the last part is "La pratique divinatoire des 78 arcanes du tarot". Each book is available on Amazon.fr (sorry no link from Aeclectic) and costs about 22€ (= 22$), you can probably get them from Amazon.ca as well .. ? Kissa

Kissa	21 Dec 2002
Congrats on your choice, Macavity. I moved to Marseille too, I decided it was by far the best place to be during this long cold winter ;-) [check my location ...] Check out the thread "Books from Chatellier" from the Historical section, you will get more info about books : http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?threadid=9763 I was reluctant to study Tarot de Marseille on my Grimaud too so I decided to get a fancier/newer version of the deck. I ended up (thanks to jmd's reviews and some comments here) buying three new decks : Fournier from www.alidastore.com (San Marino), Kris Hadar from a small esoteric bookshop in France and Camoin-Jodorowsky from Amazon.fr. I only received the first two of them, both on the same day (jingle bells, jingle bells ...). Although very different, they offer a great alternative to Grimaud's. Fournier will probably be easier and cheaper to get. I definitely agree with your "comparing" it to Universal Waite, this is indeed how I see it. There are a few differences with Grimaud though, I guess they might put off a purist but they won't bother me in my early studies !! For example, Grimaud deniers pips don't carry a number (that is you have to count yourself how many deniers appear on the card, sure you can count till 10 then you memorize how the card looks and that's it), Fournier cards do show the number at the bottom of the card. Fournier makes it easier to identify reversals as the cards carry a number on both side AND the bottom, whereas Grimaud only shows numbers on the sides. This concerns the Batons suit (Two and Eight: you cannot identify from the flowers if they are reversals or not) and the Deniers (Six, Eight and Ten). Grimaud's Valet de Denier (Deniers page) doesn't show the name of the figure, it is traditionnally an "anonymous" card whereas Fournier reads "Valet de Deniers" on the right of the card. Otherwise, cards are really similar to each other in both decks. You can find exactly the same objects at the same place on both Le Bateleur (# 1) 's tables for example. I recommend you read jmd's reviews on Camoin and Hadar : go to http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/marseilles/index.html then click on "review" and you will get to both Camoin and Hadar decks reviews. The pictures you see on the first page are from Camoin. There is a review of Fournier on www.wicce.com among various Marseilles' reviews (she writes it with an S as it should be in english but he! I am french, I know how to spell that city's name ;-) ) http://www.wicce.com/marseilles.html Check the table of content from the Historical section as well : http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?threadid=8356 you will get more info about various decks, for example. The ppl in that section do know LOTS of stuff and it has helped me a great deal so far. Come on, jump in !!!! :-D Kissa

Ophiel	21 Dec 2002
With so many gorgeous decks to pick from, there is something very primal and basic about the simplicity of the images of the Marseilles deck. I am still searching for the Hadar deck, and suspect that Kissa landed the one that had my name on it but do have the Camoin deck. It is outstanding. I have a few other readily available versions but the only other one I look through is the Conver woodcut deck, which I enjoy for its lack of polish. Regarding the pips, remember that regular 52-card playing cards are read, even without the archetypal images of the majors!

Diana	22 Dec 2002
Me is very happy that Macavity is moving to a Marseilles. But keep your other decks - they can all be useful. Now I would suggest a Hadar deck, but they are very difficult to find. I am hunting for one for Ophiel, and may have found one, and I told the guy that if he can, to get me two copies because I knew that someone somewhere someday would like a copy. If I manage to hold of one, would you be interested? Otherwise the Camoin is a wonderful choice too. It is useful to have a Grimaud deck, even if it's just for reference, because many books refer to the Grimaud. It is a very authentic deck - doesn't have many colours (uses the basic colours that the printers had in the olden days, that's why), but it has lots and lots of subtleties - you would be quite surprised to see how many, in fact. Pips are easy. A good study of the elements, a basic understanding of the numbers up to 10, and you're on your way. It is useful also to know what the colours represent in the Marseilles because that gives many clues as well (also for the Majors). But as I have mentioned a few times in other threads, the pips are not just numbers and elements - the way they are drawn on the Marseilles decks is very revealing. Watch out for the flowers and colours and stems and such. Ah, and you have the advantage too with the Marseilles of going back in history. To understand ourselves at the present time, it is important to know where we come from. And the roots of Tarot are historical. Then if you know where you come from, and have understood therefore why you are where you are today, then it is easier to map out a road for the future. *Diana loves the Marseilles*

Macavity	22 Dec 2002
Thank you ALL for contributing to this thread. I will (as ever?) diligently print this stuff and check out the links and references. Me "inkless" at the moment. Fear Not! (For mighty dread?) I *DO* intend to retain my other decks. Heck, I've still to learn ALL different traditions, associated reading method, buy every conceivable "Egyptian" and Cat-related deck. LOL. So many decks - Only one lifetime? :D But more seriously, there is (imo) a LOT of inate appeal in the Marseille - As indeed has been observed here. And perhaps a kind of "inbuilt logic" in the orderings and illustration which may indeed help me with my (sometime) lack of immediate intuition? Anyway it's something nice 'n' meaty to study, with the bonus of the historical aspects... All of which I like. In aknowledging any generous offer(s), I suspect any "spare" (e.g. Hadar) deck might be better found in the hands of someone with more extensive experience - To FULLY appreciate (and love) it as it deserves? Thanks anyway! On my choice, I suspect I will go for the Camoin FIRST with (later) a version originale - Grimaud and probably something a tad "gentler" in the Fornier? (Thanks Kissa for all the details on that particular deck) Anyway that's my strategy or "Le Planning" for the new year! :) Finally to: "Diana loves the Marseilles"? Who knew, Eh? LOL! Your secret is safe with us. :D Macavity. P.S. Just as an aside to adding or removing "S's" in Marseille(s): Is Camoin pronounced as "Kah-Moh-In" or more as "Kam-Wan"? Intelligent(?) minds need to know.

Diana	22 Dec 2002
It's pronounced CamWin. With the final "in" pronounced the French way. As you know a bit of French, you may remember how one pronounced "lapin" (rabbit). With the "i" being pronounced kind of like the "a" in "apple", and the "n" sort of ending up in a nasal kind of sound. If you're into phoenetics, it's "e" with the ~ on top of it.

jmd	24 Dec 2002
This thread is a great Christmas present! Apart from the books already mentioned, another you may wish to investigate (and in English) is the little strange mixture of a book by Rowenna Stuart, simply called Tarot (part of the true small pocket-sized series called Collins Gem), published by HarperCollins. Though illustrated with the Marseilles, its focus is basically to give interpretative meanings to each of the 78 cards. In terms of the pronunciation of 'Camoin', I personally always find it difficult to give alternatives, as these depend so much on the speech of the person reading these alternatives. Still, I would give it as approximating 'Come-When' without the final 'n' sounded - maybe that's why some of us had to wait a-while after ordering the deck! But great to see someone else with a Marseilles - and adding future ongoing contributions to the Historical - and Iconographic discussion forum!

Macavity	24 Dec 2002
Indeed so JMD. I think some of us (namely me!) will have to contain our enthusiasm until the new year. There seems to be a number of things I started just that little too LATE this year and initiating my own Camoin purchase was one! We now enter a period where (at least functionally) not a lot happens here for two weeks. Patience will be needed :) Meanwhile, may I wish ALL on this thread and other readers a Happy Holiday! Mac

Kissa	29 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Ophiel I am still searching for the Hadar deck, and suspect that Kissa landed the one that had my name on it but do have the Camoin deck. You are mistaken my friend !!! At the end of the LWB, Hadar says "I am convinced this deck was meant for you". See ?! Hadar says it !!! I am sure as soon as you get your own deck, you too will discover that THAT one was meant for you ... ;-) No kidding, keep us mailed about the progress in your quest. Friendly, Kissa

Cerulean	29 Dec 2002
Kathleen McCormack has a simple book called Tarot Decoder with a spread and general interpretations using a Tarot de Marseilles example for about $14.00. Garett Knight is better, of course. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0764106775/ref=lib_rd_btb/104-5281292-3855964?v=glance&s=books But you can also try to find out on Amazon.com what other books Kathleen has done and there's a very cheap $7.50 set that has a modern TdM equivalent and a booklet with a similar instruction format to her Tarot Decoder (just less information). I think the spread she uses is a Celtic Cross. Lee reviewed her deck--and yes, the text for the deck book was lifted from the more lavishly illustrated and twice-as expensive Tarot Decoder book: http://www.tarotpassages.com/beginners-lb.htm Anyway, it might be handy for everyday kind of knocking about. Mari H.

The Moving to (a) "Marseille" thread was originally posted on 20 Dec 2002 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.