Way Out Of My Price Range..

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 05 Dec 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

cjtarot	05 Dec 2002
Hi, this is the deck I wanted next "wanted"..it is on ebay and way out of my price range.. Servents of the Light http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19271&item=1791886554&rd=1 Have you ever paid over $100 US for a deck.. Cj

truthsayer	05 Dec 2002
no, i haven't but if i did it wouldn't be this one. maybe the amber or pet tarot or i think it's either blue moon or blue rose tarot. sometimes ppl get into a bid war at ebay. an auction certainly is andrenaline pumping and easy to make stupid money decisions when you start seeing the auction as a competition. cj if i were you i'd do a lot of hunting before i'd pay $100. there's lots of different websites that sell used items other than ebay. if you look around you may get lucky. i've managed to luck into some good trades but just letting it be known i want a certain deck. sometimes the universe opens up and shares her bounty with me. :)

MystiqueMoonlight	05 Dec 2002
Yes I agree with Truthsayer. $100 is way too much for this deck.

Kiama	06 Dec 2002
I haven't paid that much, but I did pay £45 (About $75) for a deck which originally came FREE with a teenage girl magazine... (Silly silly Kiama!) Oh, and the Salvador Dali Tarot, which in total, plus shipping etc, was around £65... about $90. Hoping to get the Blue Rose at some point, but I don't know how much that one is... Kiama

cjtarot	06 Dec 2002
Kiama, You are a true inspiration to us tarotholics.. Blessings and good luckwiht the blue rose. Cj

jema	06 Dec 2002
i think i might pay that much only if the deck was both limited edition, handmade and stunningly beautiful. but i sure would love the servants of the light tarot too. but keep an eye on e-bay and the trading forum here and also the abebooks.com site. i often see a lot of really rare and spectacular tarots there.

Jewel	06 Dec 2002
Not yet ~giggles~ ... The Tarot Ambre was a present from my hubby and hopefully that is how I will continue to receive the more expensive decks on my wishlist. I believe he got a discount on it and did not have to pay the retail price on the deck. I would also like a copy of the Servants of the Light, but I would not pay $100 for it. I agree with everyone else about looking around. Truthsayer also makes a great point about the universe opening. I have also had that experience. When it was really time for a deck to come to me it came in trade ... no charge ...

Pollux	06 Dec 2002
HEY! Whoever sees a copy of the Servants of Light at a decent price knows IT'S MINE!!!!! So don't forget to let me know! :D *LOL* I'll only allow Jema to steal it from my hands and sneak away unscathed, cos I know she's been wanting it for ages, just like me but only she started wanting it a couple of minutes BEFORE I did... *LOL* I'm counting on your sense of tarot-holic comeradery, fellowship and brother/sisterhood. :D *LOL* P.S. In reply to the question: WAY TOO MUCH! I doubt I'd get a Dali for as much, not surely a Servants of Light...

VGimlet	06 Dec 2002
I paid over 100 for the Ambre (well, Ken did :*) and also for a first edition of the Rock & Roll. There are a few decks I would gladly pay over 100 for, mostly Folchi decks, if I had the money when they became available. But for me to justify spending that much money on a deck, it has to be one I really love, even from a collector standpoint. :D

zander770	06 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by cjtarot Have you ever paid over $100 US for a deck..Cj feck no . . . i DID, however, "invest" a mere $35 "into" a robin wood tarot deck, once. and the book was included! hell, i even got her to personally sign the "2 of Pencales"--My Card--"in care of" Some Magickal Name;" and, then, PLUS! autograph her book; date it, in My Name. robin's "cool," huh??? "The William Blake" deck? that'll be apx $95, son. "Autographed," is What You Want? ok. $250 ... NO! $350 !!! "sheee ... i can Get It ..." WHAT IS WITH (and: i RAIRLY use the word: "rairly") THIS servant's of life DECK, ah, anyway??? but, then, again; i am a "writer," "artist," magiciakan/muscician," and "collect hard, harrowed" THINGS ..." so ... I HAVE No Soul ! ! ! and, you won't, either, EVERYONE, if you continue on this . . . "SHHHEEEeee . . ." listen: 1st Edition (ISBN: 04-2989870-17) _Lasher_, autographed/dated, to: v.h.h. Vespillo; 1999; mint. "TEETH-MARKS!!!" "soiled ..." ...come ON!!!" we're--All of Us--whores. "anyone? anyone?!!?" ~Z~700 })

Logiatrix	07 Dec 2002
i had a kind of epiphany about one of my decks, but i wasn't sure i could do it, so i bounced it off a friend (the idea, not the deck). she said, "it's a free country, you can do WHATEVER YOU WANT!" so, i did it--i tripled my "triple goddess tarot", which came to $115, plus tax change. i didn't plan it that way, it just happened. i like using the deck-times-three, but now i don't know what to do with the two extra books... :)

Pollux	08 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by metaz i like using the deck-times-three, but now i don't know what to do with the two extra books... :) There's always extra room in my bookshelf, metaz. And maybe Redwood's too ;) *LOL* }) P.S. What did you expect? *LOL* :D

zander770	08 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Pollux << When the Banshees cry, men grieve... >> [/b] "when the banshee's cry the men are in heat!" i have room, too, on one of my two shelves!!! ~Z~770 }) :smoker: (how might i combine this "devil" and this "smoker" to create a "smoking devil"?

cjtarot	08 Dec 2002
Hey, I started this post..I want 1st dibs on the extra books..lol. metaz put them up for trade and see what happens..you may end up with a wonderful tarot bag..heehee metaz, would you mind starting a new post to let us know "how" you work with 3 of the same decks.. blessings all, CJ

brennamor	03 Jan 2003
Actually I'm almost embarassed to admit that I now own several decks that cost over $100. I remember when the most expensive deck I owned was the Blake Tarot at $39.95 (I think). Then I slowly moved up. First it was self-published decks like Carol Herzer's Illuminated Tarot and Chris Paradis' Rock & Roll Tarot. Then I went to the Chicago ITS Conference and crossed the line. I saw Paula Gibby's Blue Rose and Animal Tarots and had to get copies (at $125 a pop). They just blew me away. Then I stopped by Arnell Ando's table (she is such a warm and sweet woman). I'm a huge fan of her Transformational Tarot. And when I saw her Hero's Journey in its gorgeous hand made box I couldn't pass it by. So there went another $200. Along the way I've added Tarot of the Crone (at $130) and several Amerigo Folchi decks which seem to run about $60 each. Yes, my name is Debbie and I'm a Tarotholic ;-D

HudsonGray	03 Jan 2003
Hmm..........are they covered under your insurance? I'm sure they qualify as 'art'. Just in case, ya know?

fairyhedgehog	03 Jan 2003
Seeing that the Servants of the Light deck is so popular and that for many of us $100 is too much, can't we start a campaign to get it published again? How would we go about that? We'd somehow need to get a huge number of emails to US Games or whoever all in a very short period of time. Any ideas anyone?

Pollux	03 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by brennamor Blake Tarot Blue Rose and Animal Tarots Tarot of the Crone ME TOOOOOO!!!! :( :( :( Maybe one day, when I have a monthly steady income... :( *LOL* I think I know where I have seen Debbie... ;) *LOL* :D Quote: Originally posted by HudsonGray Hmm..........are they covered under your insurance? I'm sure they qualify as 'art'. Just in case, ya know? Mh... this sound as a good excuse... *LOL* Quote: Originally posted by fairyhedgehog Seeing that the Servants of the Light deck is so popular and that for many of us $100 is too much, can't we start a campaign to get it published again? How would we go about that? We'd somehow need to get a huge number of emails to US Games or whoever all in a very short period of time. Any ideas anyone? I think this is a great idea, but I have no idea how we could start. The Servants of Light have a website, and Dolores Ashcroft Nowicki too. http://servantsofthelight.org/ http://dolores.ashcroft-nowicki.com/ We could start from there as well maybe? The deck/book/set is listed on them, but it is not possibly to buy it...

Pollux	03 Jan 2003
Quote: With regard to the Tarots. I have 2/3 sets of the Shakespearean Deck for sale here in Jersey. £30.00 inc postage ... unless you live in Outer Mongolia !!!! Those of you who would like these reprinted should write to Carl Weshcke at Llewellyn and ask them to consider re-printing it. I have the copyright with me and a spare set that can be re printed from... But it is better if the request comes from outside SOL!!!!! This I found in the Guestbook of her site... The only bit of useful stuff I have found after minutes of reading. Maybe we could get in touch also with the other people asking for the SOL deck in her Guestbook... http://dolores.ashcroft-nowicki.com/guestbook.php

fairyhedgehog	03 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Pollux This I found in the Guestbook of her site... The only bit of useful stuff I have found after minutes of reading. Maybe we could get in touch also with the other people asking for the SOL deck in her Guestbook... http://dolores.ashcroft-nowicki.com/guestbook.php Well, I've been there and left a message. Maybe if enough of us do the same, she'll let us know the best way to put pressure on the publishers ...

Khatruman	03 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by cjtarot Have you ever paid over $100 US for a deck.. Cj Just sent out a check the day after Christmas for the Portal Tarot for $100. It is being run as a special from its normal $125 price tag, and its a Majors only deck. I had to do massive justification to order it, and I guess I really won't know until it is in my grubby lil hands whether it was worth the investment. Peace!

brennamor	03 Jan 2003
Khatruman wrote: >Just sent out a check the day after Christmas for the Portal Tarot for $100. It is being run as a special from its normal $125 price tag, and its a Majors only deck. < I think this is the only limitation that has kept me sane and my credit cards from completely burning up - I refuse to purchase Majors only decks. And believe me there are a bunch that I absolutely adore. But I had to draw a line somewhere (no matter how arbitrary ;-D) Oh and I thought of another over $100 decks I own - Mansions of the Moon. It is beautiful but self-published and made "by hand" I'd love to get my hands on a Servants of the Light but they are rarer than hen's teeth (espeically at a price I'd be willing to pay).

truthsayer	03 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by brennamor Actually I'm almost embarassed to admit that I now own several decks that cost over $100. Yes, my name is Debbie and I'm a Tarotholic ;-D hi, debbie! anything we can do to help a fellow struggling tarot-holic justify these righteous expenditures let the group know. perhaps we can find a way to make tarot purchases tax deductible! you really have the hero's journey, blue rose and animal tarots? oohhhhhhh! i'm so jealous! particularly since i thought the hero's journey was OOP!but $200! crikey! it must be gorgeous! :)

tarotbear	03 Jan 2003
If I pay $30 for a deck, it better have a book included at that price! I think I paid $32 for my Tarot of the Stars deck, and that included shipping from Italy in it.

Khatruman	03 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer hi, debbie! anything we can do to help a fellow struggling tarot-holic justify these righteous expenditures let the group know. perhaps we can find a way to make tarot purchases tax deductible! Ahh, hmmm, hope we are not starting Tarot-holics Anonymous support group here... I mean, umm, that would mean, uhhhh, actually trying to break our habit!!! *shudders*... I wonder what the twelve step method would be in this case. Shall we start assigning buddies??? *L* Peace!

Lee	03 Jan 2003
Personally, I'm starting to wonder if there's a reason why $100 decks are $100. They obviously don't cost that much to make. I suppose it's only because there are people like us who are willing to pay it. I bought the Blue Rose Tarot, and while it's a great deck, it didn't significantly improve my life. I was recently considering getting the Healing Tarot and/or the Tarot of the Crone, but have decided I can live without them. Personally I think these deck creators are doing themselves a disservice... if, for example, they charged $50 instead of $100, they would have a lot more buyers and thus would make more money. -- Lee

Jewel	03 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Khatruman Ahh, hmmm, hope we are not starting Tarot-holics Anonymous support group here... I mean, umm, that would mean, uhhhh, actually trying to break our habit!!! *shudders*... I wonder what the twelve step method would be in this case. Shall we start assigning buddies??? *L* Well actually we do have a chapter, and have for close to a year I believe. However, this is about providing support to the terminally affected, not trying to so something silly such as try and cure anyone. We are proud of our affliction and are here to provide moral support and help those suffering of expenditure guilt. We also feel it our duty to assist eachother in the identification and acquisition of new tarot treasures. Care to join us? In some other thread the 12 steps are actually laid out ... I believe it is somewhere in the Talking Tarot forum. Ohhhh and we are also accused (and rightfully so) of starting deck purchasing frenzies. :D

truthsayer	03 Jan 2003
ROFLMAO at jewel!!!!!! khatruman, she speaks truly! jewel, faunabay, kiama, and i (amongst many others here)are charter members. we just haven't needed to give anyone the needed moral support to buy! buy! buy! i think this falls under the "we have more credit than we do cents" rule. ;) }) btw, believe us when we say this group has started a few deck spending frenzies. i won't ever forget the one a certain mermaid started on the inner child deck...was it only last summer? :D b/c she thought it was going out of print. i'm sure amazon appreciated a surge in stocks due to that one! LOL then there was the ancient egyptian and the templar... khatruman, if you are wise, you will run for the hills from us if you hope to have any money left! Tarot-holics anonymous is not for the faint of heart! })

Hummingbird	03 Jan 2003
I found a deck at Tarot Garden that I love: http://www.tarotgarden.com/database/images/f-decks/felicitacards.gif $750!!!!

Khatruman	03 Jan 2003
Ohhh, my poor poor charge cards!!!! Wait, I just got over $700 in unexpected money..hmmmm, uh oh..thinking again!!! Sign me up, Jewel... Stands proudly before the crowd at the podium.... "My name is Khatruman, and I am a tarot-holic." *Eyes the thread about that erotic Decameron tarot....thinking..hmmm, based on classic literature, erotic... ohh, I am hopeless!! SUPPORT PLEASE!!! :D :D

HudsonGray	03 Jan 2003
Don't be too sure about that 'can't be that expensive to print' part. I'm getting quotes of $40-$55 per deck printing costs from offset printers in this area. That wasn't even with the corner rounding fee (they charge per corner) added on $27 for 10 decks) or the varnish applied to front & back, that was just for printing with color separation & cutting. NO assembly. If I wanted to laminate by hand, it'd take 20 sheets to do the entire 78 card deck plus cover card, which adds $12 to the cost of the deck. And if you want BOXES printed up! Not to mention the little white book! No, I can see artist produced decks being sold at $125 because each deck cost them around $40 or $50 to actually make, AND they had to have a minimum print run of probably 200 decks from the printer to get reduced prices on top of that.

dolphingirl	03 Jan 2003
Hi I know I used to think that $125 for a deck was way to much myself untill I tried to get my deck (Samantha's Tarot) printed. www.dolphin-daze.com . To print my deck it costs me $85 add to that that I have to cut each card out of the laminate myself and trim as well as buy a box for the deck and apply the artwork to the box. This alone takes several hours sooooo $ 119 to $125 doesn't seem to bad to me anymore, and my appreciation of what is now too expensive is vastly different. lol. Unfortunatly most printers can't even print on heavy card stock it is alot of work. If anyone finds a cheeper place please let me know (pretty please :) ) DolphinGirl

HudsonGray	03 Jan 2003
Cheap! HA! The printers wanted to use xerox (for that I can go to Econoprint!), and said their machines weren't big enough to handle the larger card stock 2x4' sheets with the rollers, they needed to send that out to Madison to the larger machines there. And the job was too small for that...... So, we're looking mostly at locally being either xerox or offset printing on smaller, weaker machines (thinner card stock because of the roller capacity to grab & shift the paper wrong), etc. You'd THINK that some printer somewhere would recognize a niche market & advertise here about doing up limited runs of color decks for a decent price???? Something of a specialist field, but hey! Look at the business they'd get just from this site alone! Say, Dolphingirl, do you do stickers on your boxes for the lables & art? Bet that cost, I was part of a group of 4 marketing a home made board game, the name stickers for the game had to be printed up in black & white (we couldn't afford color) and hand applied. Been there, done that. NOT cheap! It does pay to check around, some places have better card stock or offer deals. Some charge through the roof though, for identical same service & materials. If you're lucky you can get an office supply shop to get you wholesale cost on the laminate, but you have to order a pretty large amount. Ask around, it might save you a $100 or so.

Trish	03 Jan 2003
It would have to be quite a beautiful and rare deck in order for me to pay over $100 for it. :P hehe. I mean, a real collector's item. Furthermore, if I did pay that much for a Tarot deck, I don't think I'd be all that inclined to use it. And I like to be able to use my decks! ;)

jlbvt	03 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer perhaps we can find a way to make tarot purchases tax deductible! For professional readers, I think they would be deductable! ;)

Jeannette	03 Jan 2003
I'm glad to see the posts from those forum members who've looked into (and even proceeded with) publishing their own decks. I had expected that the costs were higher than might be apparent to those of us who haven't tried publishing their own work, but I can see that the costs are higher yet than even I had guessed. I expect one could trade some degree production quality for price, but if you're going to the trouble of publishing such a labor of love yourself, what would be the point? The one thing that I see the "deck publishers" who've posted here have modestly omitted is the most expensive factor of all: the labor. And I'm not even talking about hand-collation or laminating or any such post-production details. I mean the original work that went into making the deck. That takes time -- often lots of time (and don't forget the cost of any necessary materials, such as paint, canvas, film, etc.). Is there not some cost attached to the labor involved? Keep in mind that every hour spent working on creating a deck is potentially an hour that could have been spent doing something else that produced immediate income (is it becoming apparent that I'm the daughter of an economics professor? LOL). If we assume that the artist's time is worth a modest $8/hour (too low, but let's use that number for the sake of argument), and the artist spent 200 hours working on creating the images of the tarot (probably also a horribly low estimate), that's another $1,600 of cost that's just been sunk into the project. (Economists call that "opportunity cost," but don't make the mistake of thinking it's just mere theoretical mumbo jumbo -- I can definitely speak from experience on that point. There are very real financial consequences to such choices.) On a separate-but-related issue, there's also the consideration of value, which is not the same as cost. Even if a deck cost $1 a copy to produce, its value could potentially be 1,000 times greater -- or 1,000 times less. Cost is a "real" thing -- we spend real money and receive real goods in return. Value, on the other hand, is subjective. A deck that costs me $5 to buy, but turns out to be a deck that I hate, has far less value, possibly no value, in relation to what I paid for it. Conversely, if I pay $100 for a deck, but it's the prize of my collection -- a true work of art that provides me with endless hours of enjoyment and pride -- the value is far, far greater than the mere $100 I paid for it. Quite frankly, for those who look at a $100 price tag on a tarot and furrow their brows in confusion, I would ask this: why do you buy tarots? If you are strictly a reader, looking for another good reading deck, I can certainly imagine that $100 would seem a very high price to pay for an item that will be extensively handled, possibly to the point of serious deterioration such that it would be in need of replacement after some period of time. Anything that serves a regular, utilitarian function may, by necessity, need to be less-expensively priced in order that it may be affordably replaced. By analogy, a $100 hammer is generally not a good value. However, for those of us who, among other reasons, enjoy buying tarot for its artistic value, $100 for a deck might be considered an absolute bargin. Art collectors frequently pay much, much more for a single art print -- as tarot enthusiasts, we get 22 or 78 (or thereabouts) works of art for the price of one! Now that's value! There are many, many other considerations and arguments one could make if the question is "what possible reason would there be for paying $xx (insert theoretical price here) for a single tarot?" But ultimately, it all comes down to a matter of opinion. In brief, here's mine: a deck can be overpriced at $10, or underpriced at $100. It doesn't depend on how much it cost to produce. It depends on its "value" -- a subjective quality that everyone has to decide for themselves. -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

Marie	03 Jan 2003
This is a great thread and it's totally topical to me right now. I just completed my first really good looking handmade deck and now I am trying to price it so this has been very helpful. I have to say that putting it together was fairly expensive and I havent figured out what I am going to do for a box or other packaging yet so don't know how much that will cost. I've seen Arnells decks and Ellen's tarot of the Crone and they are very very nice, plus I know besides the cost of making them it takes many hours to put them together. Does anyone have scans of some of the other limited hand made decks for comparison, like the quality of them, whats on the backs and how they are packaged? With mine I want to make it available but don't have the money to lose on the project right now. It's going to be 27 cards, Majors and Aces on sturdy cardstock with excellent colors laminated on both sides. I haven't decided on all the packaging yet. And limited to 200 signed decks. So I am just curious what you all would consider a fair price for something like that? And I have no intention of crossing the 100 mark for a less-than-78-card-deck. Marie:)

Lee	03 Jan 2003
I had no idea it was that expensive to produce decks! Chalk it up to my ignorance. One of the factors adding to my misconceptions, though, is that there are some self-produced decks which are much less expensive. Ones that come to mind are Carol Herzer's Illuminated Tarot (mine cost $54), Greg Hoose's Fae and Longmoment decks ($35 with carved wooden box) and the Mountain Dream Tarot ($25 or so). It's true that that last one is printed on very thin stock and in black and white. Now, I don't know the circumstances behind the production of those decks, so all I'm going on is what the artists charge for them. Jeannette makes some very good points about the cost of the artist's labor to design the deck in the first place. In the end, of course, value is simply what someone can get for something. If someone produces 100 copies of a deck and charges $200 a copy, and sells out the entire run, then it would be difficult for me to argue that it was overpriced. -- Lee

HudsonGray	04 Jan 2003
Yeah time put in.........I'm doing mine as black & white line art. Basically 2 hours a night several nights a week, I get 3 cards penciled in rough, then inked in that time but I'm working from scribbled pen sketches too, so I'm not working with a blank page in front of me. It's FUN though, so it's not like I'm wasting my time or such. I've got 16 cards with art ready for cut & paste to the border frames, and rough sketches for 35 more. No idea how many hours will be put into this. Remember there's the trips to the print shops for quotes, all the xeroxing for copies & layout, time spent on the road for this & that. If I was painting, that'd take MANY more hours... Labor of love I guess. When Steve & Liz did the black & white New Vision tarot they spent 9 months working on just the drawings, with all their spare time. It slowly came together, she even had a sketchbook at work to do ideas that came to her. They got the whole thing done before looking for how to print it out. All the art was on 8 1/2 x 11" paper so reductions had to be done & touched up & gawd knows what else. I was in on the coalating party--over 20,000 cards needed to be assembled into decks. Took all a Saturday afternoon for a group of us to get it done. They couldn't afford to have boxes made up so the decks were tied with thin ribbon (like you do a Xmas present) with bow on top, then put into zip lock baggies for protection. The little white book cost too--they used 2 pages of paper, 5 font size on both sides for the card meanings, folded it & added it to the bottom of the deck. HOWEVER, there ARE other ways of making some money off the entire project. Especially if it's a black & white deck. Rubber stamp companies buy all sorts of line art, they can be sold as illustrations to magazines, you can get mug & t-shirt sales on the best looking cards, greeting cards, etc. Think outside the box & the deck can pay for itself in several ways.

brennamor	04 Jan 2003
I think Jeannette raised a good point - a $5 deck that I hate is has less value to me than a $100 deck that I love. I have also made "backup" copies of some decks. I got Ellen Lorenzi-Prince's permission to make a color copy of Tarot of the Crone so that I would have the to use and be able to keep the original safe. Between the cost of ink, lamination and the time and effort involved - I can easily understand how some of these decks run over $100 to print. Having said that I am still cautious about spending that much on a deck. I usually try to see as many of the cards as I can. And if there is any possibility of actually holding a copy of the deck in my hands first - that's the way to go. Quite honestly I would never have purchased Blue Rose or Animal or Healing until I actually saw friends' copies. Some decks must be seen to be appreciated fully ;-D BTW - I've heard that US Games will be reprinting Arnell Ando's Transformational Tarot sometime in 2004. I can't wait. I'm almost afraid to use my deck because I love it so much that I don't want to ruin it. Now I can get a backup copy.

Demonesse	04 Jan 2003
I would NEVER pay $100 US for ANY deck, for whatever reason, even taking into account the opportunity costs incurred by the artist. :P In my opinion, even for hobbies, expenditure should be in line with one's income, so for me it would be an utter waste of money :P I think if you intend to self-publish you should know what you're getting into - if you intend it to be a profitable venture and get proper renumeration for your labours, that's probably highly impractical, taking into account costs and your 'competitors', not to mention the fact that you have to accurately gauge the demand for your product as well as the price people are willing to pay for your finished product. And as for printing/laminating costs, according to a friend who owns a publishing company, they're much cheaper here than in the US, comparatively - a good idea may be to arrange for your deck to be produced outside the US due to lower costs.

baba-prague	04 Jan 2003
[quote]Originally posted by Jeannette and/or Lori [b]If we assume that the artist's time is worth a modest $8/hour (too low, but let's use that number for the sake of argument), and the artist spent 200 hours working on creating the images of the tarot (probably also a horribly low estimate), that's another $1,600 of cost that's just been sunk into the project. Hi, Just to respond here. I think 200 hours is a VERY low estimate. To give some insight into what's involved (I'd guess on most decks with good artwork, I doubt that we are unusual) there are two of us working on our tarot (Tarot of Prague www.baba-prague.com/tarot). We are both professionally trained artists/designers so we probably work comparatively fast. However, between us we put in at least 100 hours a week on this deck (and that is probably conservative) and it will take us about six months in total. SO - 100*25 (allow one week's holiday!) = 2,500 hours! (by the way, this includes some, but not all, of the time taken to write the accompanying book - and doesn't include at all the time to build and maintain the necessary website to show the deck). I used to run a design studio in London, and at our normal professional London rates, doing a project like this would be totally impossible - you'd end up charging goodness knows what for a deck simply to break even. I think that these economics are the reason that doing a tarot has to always be, so some extent, a labour of love. I do think it's one of the most satisfying things I've ever worked on, even if it doesn't make much economic sense. We WILL benefit from comparatively low print costs here in Prague (though the time involved in printing will be high - we will literally sit with the printers throughout to check quality, even though our chosen printers are the best printers here and specialise in high quality art books). However, even with lower-cost printing, the overall costs ARE, as Jeannette and Lori point out, high. BTW, we won't charge anything like $100 a deck (we haven't yet set the final price but it will be under $50) but I do sympathise with artists who do have to charge high. It is understandable really, particularly if you are printing in the US. Anyway, great thread! Karen

tarotbear	04 Jan 2003
As someone who used to do quilting...let me tell you about the costs that never get added into the price! I never made more than two quilts on commission; they were made as a self-expression and then appraised for sale later. Remember- quilting was once considered 'women's work = valueLESS'. To hand quilt a quilt about queensize could take months depending on how intricate the quilting design was and the amounts of time available to sit there and quilt. Do you think 300-400 hours was ever reflected in the price of the quilt? HA! You were lucky to get $300 for a finished quilt, not including the fabric, batting, backing, or the time to piece the top before the quilting started. Self-publishing, like self-printing, is a bitch! You can't expect people to GIVE their hard work away! It's also like my book (still in acquistitions) that took a year to write. If it sells for $16.95, all I will make is $1.69 per sale of each book - and people EXPECT me to give them free copies! DOUBLE HA!

baba-prague	04 Jan 2003
Hi Tarotbear, Honestly, I don't mean that artists should work for free (why should they when other professionals don't?) I just mean that I think that the basic economics of publishing Tarot mean that artists are very unlikely ever to get professional rates for their work on a deck - or if they do, it will take years. So why do we do it? Well, can't speak for others, but in my case, simply because I DO love the work (and I do love Prague - feels like a way of acknowledging the city somehow). I am getting a lot out of this work and learning a lot, even if I probably won't earn much from doing the deck. So when I say it has to be a labour of love, I don't mean it SHOULD be - just that the truth is that anyone doing a tarot should probably realise that it isn't a way to become a millionaire (if that's anyone's motivation, they may end up disappointed), but it does give rewards that aren't monetary. Anyway, I guess we agree on this :-) By the way, I like quilting very much, and like you, feel it is totally unfair that quilt artists can never get the kind of payment that an artist in a medium like oil paint would expect. You're right, it's some strange system of values that makes no sense. Anyway, hope I didn't offend you. It definitely wasn't meant. Best wishes, Karen

Jeannette	04 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Demonesse I would NEVER pay $100 US for ANY deck, for whatever reason, even taking into account the opportunity costs incurred by the artist. There is a difference between being unwilling to pay a certain price for an item, and begruding the artist the right to ask that price. I assume you are expressing your unwillingness to buy items in this price range? If I walk into an art gallery and see a beautiful painting that I would perhaps like to own, but the painting is priced at $1,000, I would probably be unwilling (or perhaps simply unable) to pay that price. But I would not begrudge the artist his or her right to ask that price. Quote: In my opinion, even for hobbies, expenditure should be in line with one's income, so for me it would be an utter waste of money. I would assume that the tarot self-publishers on this list didn't spend more on the project than they could afford to. But it's an "apples and oranges" argument -- simply because one takes the risk of loss, does it mean that they owe it to the rest of us, as tarot buyers, to accept a price that less than the deck is potentially worth? Of course, in my previous post, I tried to make a distinction between "cost" and "value." To be honest, I would agree that there have been many higher-priced decks produced that do not (to me, at least) have a value that is equivalent to their cost. But that is not for me to decide. I only decide whether or not to buy the tarot at the stated price. Once again, even if it is not a tarot that I like, I do not begrudge the tarot-creator the right to ask whatever price they believe is fair. Quote: I think if you intend to self-publish you should know what you're getting into - if you intend it to be a profitable venture and get proper renumeration for your labours, that's probably highly impractical, taking into account costs and your 'competitors', not to mention the fact that you have to accurately gauge the demand for your product as well as the price people are willing to pay for your finished product. It is true that if someone publishes a tarot with the primary intent of making a profit, he or she should definitely "know what they're getting into." Creating and marketing a for-profit tarot is a highy risky proposition. But once again, this has nothing to do with the issue of "fair" pricing. If, after doing one's research, it can be determined that the desired profit can be made by charging $100 per deck, do we, as tarot buyers, have the right to scream "unfair!"? We either buy it, or we don't. Some people will not buy it because of the price alone. Others, such as myself, might buy it if we like it and have the money to do so. Perhaps I am misinterpreting your comment, Demonesse, but the implication of your statements seems to be that such an undertaking would be impractical solely because the price that the artist/publisher would have to charge for such a deck might be "unfairly" high. I respect that you have a limit to what you wish to spend on a single tarot. Please allow that some of us are potentially willing to spend more in order to encourage the availability of decks that might otherwise not get created for publication. Quote: And as for printing/laminating costs, according to a friend who owns a publishing company, they're much cheaper here than in the US, comparatively - a good idea may be to arrange for your deck to be produced outside the US due to lower costs. This is quite possibly true (although the shipping of the completed decks to the U.S. can cost quite a bit in-and-of-itself). However, I do sympathize with those who have looked into the publishing options, and found them to be expensive. To be honest, I've looked into it a bit myself, and my biggest puzzlement was the utter lack of information on companies that presumably provide such specialized printing services -- both in and outside of North America. If you know of any companies outside of North America that can print a quality deck for the self-publishers on this list, at a price lower than those shared so far by various posters on this thread, I'm sure there are many list members who would love to know more. Please share. Just another point-of-view. -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

Demonesse	04 Jan 2003
Aah. A bit of excitement. First of all, yes, you are misinterpreting my statement(s) :) An artist, or publisher, has every right to charge what he wants to. My statements were solely intended to express my PERSONAL unwillingness to pay what is to me an atrocious, horrendous price for what is essentially 78 pieces of laminated card with pictures on them. Yes, the works are original and a lot of love and care went into them. That doesn't change what it IS (to me), even if it has a lot of symbolism and sentimentality and great talent in it. It, however, is of no concern to me what an artist THINKS he or she is worth; the more, the better for him or her. The artist has every right to ask what he thinks he is worth, whether or not it is saleable at such a price. I see many people around me who spend far too much money (not on tarot) than they can truly afford on their hobbies, even getting into debt. Again, I do not believe a tarot artist "owes" buyers anything, any more than I believe corporations really "owe" customers anything from a purely business sense. It's your work. You're completely entitled to charge $10,000 for it if you think it's worth that much. Simply, if you charge more, you're likely to sell less. Not because it is worth less, but because it is a fundamental economical fact. In no way do I think it is "unfair" for an artist to charge highly - I just won't buy it. As for my statement about impracticality, I thought that was rather clear. The high start-up costs would be off-putting in terms of profit, and the resulting high prices (so you don't practically give your work away) would deter SOME - naturally not ALL - people from buying it. As for the publishing companies, I have no such list, I'm afraid. But if you wish, I can get specific quotations from local publishing AND shipping companies if you inform me of your requirements, since I am not in the process of creating a deck myself. Shipping (although I suppose shipping by sea is less costly) IS expensive as well, that is why I stated it "may" be cheaper, especially since the US exchange rate is considerably high.

darwinia	04 Jan 2003
I have been keeping track of Pete Wood's new card deck. For those who aren't familiar with Peter's work, he does some tarot decks and regular playing cards--he did the Majors only Tiny Tarot which I believe Jeannette sells on her site. So I signed up for the Newt's Novelties newsletter to see what Pete was up to with this new Wild! deck of his that's coming out, and NN had this blurb in the newsletter: "The Manufacture for WILD! The manufacturer for our first limited-edition, custom deck of semi-transformational playing cards is Carta-Mundi. If you have a design that you would like to bring to market we can help. With Carta-Mundi you only have to order a minimum of 3000 full color decks. Along with Carta-Mundi's quality, you get great service, long lasting cards and environmentally friendly cards. Call us at 614-272-5592 to find out more details." Now, NN is in the UK I believe, so I imagine Carta-Mundi is there or in Europe somewhere. I have no idea what they're like, or what this minimum order quantity of 3000 would cost, but it's an option anyway. I like the sound of the quality at least, but I don't know if they'd print a deck with more cards like a 78-card tarot deck. Here is also the web page and the contact e-mail for Newton's Novelties: playingcards@newtonsnovelties.com http://www.newtonsnovelties.com

Jeannette	04 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Demonesse Aah. A bit of excitement. Don't you just love a "spirited debate?" :D Quote: First of all, I wonder why you think I think that high prices are unfair. Actually, I wasn't sure whether you did or didn't, so I'm glad you replied to my post. Such are the unfortunate problems with the medium of written communcation. Subtleties that would imminently clear in a face-to-face conversation, because of voice inflection, body language, etc. are often lost in the written word. Your written statement that "I would NEVER pay $100 US for ANY deck, for whatever reason, even taking into account the opportunity costs incurred by the artist," with the added all-caps emphasis on NEVER, came across to me personally as perhaps stronger (and harsher?) than you obviously intended it to be. But of course, your statements also included qualifying phrases such as "for me...". Thus, the reason for the qualifying question of my previous post: "I assume you are expressing your unwillingness to buy items in this price range?" You have answered this question quite nicely in your followup post, thank you. I apologize if I caused you concern in my reply. Quote: An artist, or publisher, has every right to charge what he wants to. We are in agreement, then. Quote: My statements were solely intended to express my PERSONAL unwillingness to pay what is to me an atrocious, horrendous price for what is essentially 78 pieces of laminated card with pictures on them. Yes, the works are original and a lot of love and care went into them. That doesn't change what it IS (to me), even if it has a lot of symbolism and sentimentality and great TALENT in it. A potentially inflamatory statement, with the inclusion of the words "atrocious, horrendous," -- but an honest statement of opinion nonetheless, to be respected even if one disagrees. They are, as you say, your own personal reasons. It was merely my wish to counterbalance those opinions with my own, to let deck creators know that there are those of us who do purchase higher-priced decks, in order to avoid discouraging deck-creators who would not (for whatever reason) make their creations available at a lower price. Once again, I'm sorry that I inferred a possible accusation of "unfairness" in your comments. Having said that, I'll reiterate the statement from my earlier post that I do not believe all decks have a value that is equivalent to their price tags, and in such a case, I, too, would decline to invest in such decks. Caveat artiste. Quote: ...I do not believe a tarot artist "owes" buyers anything, any more than I believe corporations really "owe" customers anything from a purely business sense. It's your work. You're completely entitled to charge $10,000 for it if you think it's worth that much. Simply, if you charge more, you're likely to sell less. Not because it is worth less, but because it is a fundamental economical fact. In no way do I think it is "unfair" for an artist to charge highly - I just won't buy it. Once again, we are in agreement. And yes, in general it is true that higher prices = lower number of copies sold. But the mathematics of profit are not that simple. If it's simply a matter of pure profit, one could potentially earn more from selling one copy at $10,000 than from 1,000 $20 sales, depending on the profit margin (ignoring labor opportunity cost). So, if we are attempting to counsel potential deck-publishers on the perils and profits of self-publication, 'tis probably best to focus first on issues of profit margin scenarios, rather than on price alone. Price affects demand, but the price/demand curve alone does not reveal the actual potential profit at any given level of sales. There are many additional factors, such as economies of scale (or lack thereof) which come into play when exploring the "bottom line potential." All of which, of course, is probably a moot point for many deck creators on this list, who have no doubt already accepted that they can never be completely recompensated monetarily for such a work -- nor is that necessarily the point. Pardon me if I am beginning to pull the discussion too far afield here; once again, it is the "economist's daughter" part of me that finds it difficult to resist at least a brief exploration of the possibilities. Quote: As for my statement about impracticality, I thought that was rather clear. The high start-up costs would be off-putting in terms of profit, and the resulting high prices (so you don't practically give your work away) would deter SOME - naturally not ALL - people from buying it. I apologize if I gave offense in my reply. Quote: As for the publishing companies, I have no such list, I'm afraid. But if you wish, I can get specific quotations from local companies if you inform me of your requirements, since I am not in the process of creating a deck myself. Shipping (although I suppose shipping by sea is less costly) IS expensive as well, that is why I stated it "may" be cheaper, especially since the US exchange rate is considerably high. Of course there is no such reason for you to go to the trouble of trying to compile such a list when there is no benefit to you. But you are not the first person that I've heard make such a comment, and yet I have not been able to determine how one might go about arranging for publication outside of the U.S. at the type of prices that are puported to be available. 'Twas simply a vain hope that because of the friend you mentioned, perhaps you could provide information that others couldn't. But you do not owe anyone on this list a free research service. However, I, and probably many others on this list, certainly appreciate the generous offer. -- Jeannette http://www.tarotgarden.com

purplelady	04 Jan 2003
humfph, interesting discussion! I think the most I've ever paid for a deck/book set was $36 ! I really, really want the tarot of the crone , but I was rather taken a back when I heard it was being offered for over $100 a deck. This is pretty much out of my price range. And Even IF I could easily afford to buy $100 tarot decks , I don't know if I Would. It may cost that much to create and publish, and it's "value" may be worth it. I Still don't know if I would spend that much. Probubly not. One reason, in my rationalization, anyhow, is that there are SO many other really great decks available for about $10.00 to $30.00 ! If Arnell Ando's deck is really being published by u.s. games then maybe someday tarot of the crone , and maybe it's worth the wait? ;) ,just my 2 cents. I'm also thinking about ordering the Fractal Firebird Tarot, which I am convinced is Really nice and probubly "worth it". And I don't even have time to read with the many decks I already have! So.....I'm wondering if the fractal is worth $50 or $60 , plus shipping? If so, it will be the single most expensive deck I've ever purchased. Is a deck worth more if you can read with it, or if it just sits in your collection looking pretty? I actually do believe I will be able to read with the fractal firebird! I don't think I would buy a deck that I didn't believe I could Read with even for the artwork. And another thought, I wonder how the rock and roll tarot guy could make his deck so affordable? And that one is definitely worth it.

HudsonGray	04 Jan 2003
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think if you intend to self-publish you should know what you're getting into - if you intend it to be a profitable venture and get proper renumeration for your labours, that's probably highly impractical, taking into account costs and your 'competitors', not to mention the fact that you have to accurately gauge the demand for your product as well as the price people are willing to pay for your finished product. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, most people who do a deck know art, but not marketing or any of the other skills needed to bring a deck to the public. They're doing it all from scratch & don't often know where to look. Possibly never even did a craft show or anything as a vendor to know what selling to the public is like, so they're in the dark outside of completing their deck. Gauging demand is guesswork in any new item to hit the market, there ARE no guaranteed sales. You just do the best you can. If it's approached as a simple money making venture, there are other different products that can be done without the high costs associated with making a deck. (Even in the tarot field). It'd be GREAT to get info from printers outside this country (your ID under your name doesn't indicate which country you're in though). But finding names of printers is practically impossible even looking through the reference section at a main library. ISBN numbers only go so far. Trying to use phone books from other countries are little help either, if they happen to be carried in the library, as there is no advertising in them indicating what kinds of work they're willing to do. It's similar to calling at random & racking up overseas charges trying to find someone who speaks English, knows what they're doing, is willing to believe someone from the USA wants them to do the work, etc. And will ship you a final product, sight unseen. Frustrating, a shot in the dark & no guarantee of what you're going to get, if you don't have an agent in that city to help you out. Only 2 US publishers handle decks. Both have restrictive policies & there's no guarantee you can get a deck published by them. They also keep all your original artwork. So self publishing is sometimes the only option. If it's priced right, it'll sell. If people want it, they'll buy it, even if they're on a budget. As for the rest of the obstacles in the way--the ones who WANT to do their own deck will. It's been done before & it will be again.

baba-prague	05 Jan 2003
It may be useful just to say that we used Carta Mundi as printers (not publishers) on a recent project. They are very nice people and very professional and we thought that the quality was not bad - however, it could have been better (there were some problems about the final prints coming out significantly darker than the test sheets that we signed off). The actual card cutting was very good, as was the packaging, but they subbed out our LWB and there were some problems with it - some pages stapled in the wrong order. They aren't particularly cheap, but because they specialise in cards they do a good job and probably at a better cost than an ordinary printer for whom a pack of cards would be a "special". I think, even having told about the problems, that they are pretty reliable. This experience though made us decide to try to do our Tarot with a local publisher in Prague (we know them from other projects - we've designed some artist's booklets which need very good reproduction) . I think I've said it a couple of times on this list, but the fact is that there is NO substitute for a situation in which someone who knows the design actually sits with the printers through most of the process. Sending off the artwork and hoping for the best is a bit hazardous, even with the best and most conscientious of printers. BUT, ideally you need someone there who understands the print process and can knowledgeably intervene if, for example, the colour pressure is too high or low. Printers tend to be busy and respond best (like anyone else) if they think you are making informed requests. S0 - try to learn as much about printing as possible beforehand, it will stand you in good stead. I can't comment on prices in the USA, I guess people are right in saying they are dearer than in Europe (though of course Europe varies a lot, the UK is pretty expensive). BTW - once our deck is printed I am happy to report back on the experience for anyone who is thinking of printing in Europe. Just to throw in my two-pennyworth again, I think that saying a pack of cards is "only 78 bits of laminated board" is a bit like saying that a Vermeer or a Rembrandt is only a bit of paint on a small piece of canvas! Why should one be valued so much more than the other - it's the art and conception that is valuable surely, not the materials? Okay, it's a provocative analogy, but I'm enjoying this thread and provoking some more comment would be good! ;-) Karen

Lee	05 Jan 2003
Here's a few more self-published decks I thought of whose retail prices are (or were, when they were in print) less than $100 per deck (I think $65 was the most expensive, and that was for Songs from the Jouney Home, which came with a substantial and very nicely printed book): Stone Tarot Artists Inner Vision Tarot Transformational Tarot (Ando) Transformational Tarot (Gotthold) MerryDay Tarot Songs from the Journey Home Tarot Soul Cards I and II Again, I don't know the circumstances behind the production of these decks, but it seems to indicate that it is possible for a deck to be produced which can be sold for prices closer to what major publishers charge. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that not all of these deck creators are losing money on their projects. -- Lee

cjtarot	05 Jan 2003
Hi all, When I started this post, I was just wandering if and what decks you would buy over $100 or out of your normal range. I didnt expect ummm major debates (but they are interesting and informative). ANYHOOOO...I guess I'm just gonna have to save my pennies because thanks to a few suggestions I now have a few "out of my price range" decks on my list blessings to allllll Cj

dolphingirl	05 Jan 2003
Hi Everyone I did quite a bit of looking around and for the small publishers that I found . If you wanted to make a deck that would sell less thtan the $100 that I was looking for that they wanted you to pay upfront around $25,000 for a small print run. So If I had a spare $25,000 laying around it wouldn't to to much of a problem although this didn't take into acount a box (both versions of my deck come in a and decorated heavy box that are much nicer than the ones that comercial decks use. It also didn't cover the cost of printing a LWB. Now while a artist could get a loan for this $25,000 to print there deck they need to be able to see this thing pretty darn fast and lots of them to pay that loan off before the interrest eats you up. :) DolphinGirl

Demonesse	05 Jan 2003
*deeeep breath* First, of all, a disclaimer: These are my own views, intended to represent only me and not everyone else on the face of the earth. [but the mathematics of profit are not that simple. if it's simply a matter of pure profit, one could potentially earn more from selling one copy at $10,000 than from 1,000 $20 sales, depending on the profit margin. (ignoring so, if we are attempting to counsel potential deck-publishers on the perils and profits of self-publication, 'tis probably best to focus first on issues of profit margin scenarios, rather than on price alone. price affects demand, but the price/demand curve alone does not reveal the actual potential profit at any given level of sales.). there are many additional factors, such as economies of scale (or lack thereof) which come into play when exploring the "bottom line potential."] ---Jeanette and/or Lori I both agree and disagree. One of the most fundamental factors affecting demand is the price elasticity of demand – which states that for a non-necessity product, a change in price will cause a greater change in quantity demanded. Purely from an economic sense, what a “producer” of cards should do is charge less to sell more. Then again, like you say, sometimes one could potentially earn more from selling one copy at $10,000 than from 1,000 $20 sales, depending on the profit margin. - e.g. if 100 people were willing to buy movie tickets at $10, while 80 were willing to buy tickets at $18. But I DO agree with you that there are many additional economic factors which come into play; the study of economics IS fascinating, isn’t it? As for the artist’s decision on pricing, unless, of course, you KNOW it will sell at $10,000 (for example, if you were an established artist in a high-level niche market, like haute couture). I think it is fairly safe to say that it is far more likely an artist will find 20 buyers at $100 than 1 at $10,000. Yes, I could draw something and stick a $10000 price tag on it and realize 0 profit if no one likes my art THAT much (then again, you never know with art); or I could price it lower and realize a more modest profit, which is profit nonetheless. [just to throw in my two-pennyworth again, i think that saying a pack of cards is "only 78 bits of laminated board" is a bit like saying that a vermeer or a rembrandt is only a bit of paint on a small piece of canvas!] --baba-prague Let me flip in my own couple of cents. Actually, that is STILL what it is. How people as individuals and as a society view the subject (and the technique of depicting that subject) in terms of artistic and financial worth is another matter; for example, I might think the art on some decks is technically very good – therefore I rate it as better, more valuable, while another person may not share my point of view. And as an individual, if I HAD the money, I still wouldn’t buy a Rembrandt for the art alone (I’d rather donate it to a charity, I’d consider the money far better spent!) – I MIGHT buy it solely as an investment for the future since OTHER people are willing to pay that much – and more. There is basically no problem with charging high – it is how much people value your talent, and therefore how much they are willing to pay for this. [of course there is no such reason for you to go to the trouble of trying to compile such a list when there is no benefit to you. but you are not the first person that i've heard make such a comment, and yet i have not been able to determine how one might go about arranging for publication outside of the u.s. at the type of prices that are puported to be available.] ---- Jeanette and/or Lori Well, I don’t so things ONLY because I gain benefit :) That said, it would not be much trouble – a couple of phone calls. Like I said, since I am not in the process of publishing a deck, I’ve no idea what you require, for example in terms of card size, stock etc, and I would need to relay your requirements. Also, as baba-prague says, there is nothing like being able to sit down with the publisher and going over it step by step to ensure every detail is perfect, yet ultimately it is up to you to explore every avenue and then decide. [well, most people who do a deck know art, but not marketing or any of the other skills needed to bring a deck to the public.............gauging demand is guesswork in any new item to hit the market, there are no guaranteed sales.] ----HudsonGray Precisely why I said you ought to have some idea of what you should do. There is never any guaranteed sale for a COMPLETELY new product, but tarot is not new - you should have some idea what decks are popular and why, and I'm sure you can get plenty of feedback from Aeclectic members to estimate whether or not other people would buy it. [it'd be great to get info from printers outside this country (your id under your name doesn't indicate which country you're in though). but finding names of printers is practically impossible even looking through the reference section at a main library. isbn numbers only go so far. trying to use phone books from other countries are little help either, if they happen to be carried in the library, as there is no advertising in them indicating what kinds of work they're willing to do. it's similar to calling at random & racking up overseas charges trying to find someone who speaks english, knows what they're doing, is willing to believe someone from the usa wants them to do the work, etc. and will ship you a final product, sight unseen. frustrating, a shot in the dark & no guarantee of what you're going to get, if you don't have an agent in that city to help you out.[ ---- hudsongray in response to your first statement, ask and you shall receive an answer. it happens that i have business contacts in the publishing line; i've never had to slog to find out such things, luckily. (and i think my english is rather adequate.) as for a guarantee of what you're going to get, i advise that you constantly keep in communication with your publisher and ask for scans of the card before it goes into final print; sometimes people forget instructions or just get careless if you don't do follow-ups, especially if you're a stickler for detail. [as for the rest of the obstacles in the way--the ones who want to do their own deck will. it's been done before & it will be again.] ---HudsonGray Yes, it has to be a labour of love, like any creative project. Something you'd be proud to show your grandkids :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lastly - if there are many Tarot collectors who are willing to pay $100 for a deck and a single one (yours truly) who is not (due to personal choice as well as certain factors surrounding me at the moment), does that disrupt the ultimate pattern of the universe? :P *wheeze wheeze* I'm getting far too old for this.

Demonesse	05 Jan 2003
dolphingirl: Uhh, $25,000? Is that publishing or highway robbery? Now I'm almost 100% sure that it's a lot cheaper here.

baba-prague	05 Jan 2003
Even if you could - it is WAY too much. Printing costs are high but not THAT high (like I say we've done two packs of cards - not tarot - in the past so we have real experience of this). You should be able to get much lower quotes if you are willing/able to do a run of 3,000 or so. I'm kind of staggered that someone quoted you that - I agree with Demonesse! So either someone was quoting very high (some printers will deliberately do this to put you off, if it's a project they feel is going to be difficult or awkward or just not their thing) or costs in Europe are much, much lower. Karen ps - to get right back on thread again, I would definitely (if I had the money) pay $100 or more for a very old and unusual deck. I would love to own one of the antique woodblock decks - but they go for hundreds of course. Still, I can dream...

Marie	05 Jan 2003
25,000 is about the same kind of quotes I have been getting around here, definitely not in my price range. Arnell Ando has an excellent article about her experience with self publishing and what kind of money and work it took. http://www.ixpres.com/transformational/makenpub.htm <> I wanted to comment on this thought. It also depends on how much money you have to begin with to invest and in the case of handmade decks just the amount of time to make one. I'm not talking about making the artwork in the cards, but actually putting together a handmade deck. Take for example a 20.00 deck(which would really having you skimp on quality of materials to just break even), you might sell a whole lot of them but would you have the time to make them? Could you supply those kinds of numbers? Unless you had a very streamlined way of making them, like printing them black and white on index cards and stuffing them in a mailing box, I think not. Marie

Marie	05 Jan 2003
A few more things...I am in Southern California, US, so those prices reflect my locale, plus other places around the country, nothing outside the US. I also found that local printers #1 don't want to use their machines on heavy cardstock, but want to use thin paper so they wont damage the rollers in their machines. #2 I've had many places do sample prints to see how they handle the color and details and they looked really bad, definitely not what I would want. Marie

HudsonGray	05 Jan 2003
I agree with you Marie, I was quoted about the same range. Once you start looking at 'color separation' in the printing process the prices rack up fast. Black & white is one thing, but color is a whole 'nother ballfield! They have prices for everything - paper, coalating, cutting, corner rounding, matching with edges, etc. etc. etc. Printers will ask a few questions you might not think of, put the info in their computer & it spits out a price. Their 'small' runs of decks is 2,000-3,000 decks. Each deck will be a MINIMUM of $5 to print, usually higher. Yes, the $20,000 quotes are in line with what seems to be quoted around the country in the USA. I can't afford that kind of money, so I'm looking at a xerox production in black & white at my end. Rounding of corners is a luxury, and I may have to do all the cutting myself. That's ok, I prefer to get it out to be seen than dream about it for another 5 years & have prices go higher. Perceived value will be the deciding point. If a person likes the subject matter & my art style, they'll buy it. I'm going to try keeping the deck price low anyways, so all the bells & whistles won't be there. Demonese? You in England? Baba -- Prague must be really cheap. I wonder what the final costs would be for shipping that kind of weight back to the USA though, the cost would have to be added to the total price on the deck. I wonder what the costs in Canada would be. Shipping to the US is cheaper than overseas to here. However, Marie, you definately HAVE to have good quality on your deck, you work in color & the cards are great. I can't believe you were turned down by that publisher! Were they stupid? __________________________________________ 2000 B.C. - Here, eat this root. 1000 A.D. - That root is heathen. Here, say this prayer. 1850 A.D. - That prayer is superstition. Here, drink this potion. 1940 A.D. - That potion is snake oil. Here, swallow this pill. 1985 A.D. - That pill is ineffective. Here, take this antibiotic. 2000 A.D. - That antibiotic is artificial. Here, eat this root.

HudsonGray	05 Jan 2003
Here's something with quotes I found online about someone else doing up his own deck--what was included in the quote, etc. Informative. Only a few years out of date. http://www.ixpres.com/transformational/makenpub.htm

tarotbear	05 Jan 2003
Slightly off topic here... My cousin is writing a book about the area she grew up in as a child that was 'redeveloped' in the 1960s (fancy word for 'trash an old neighborhood'.) It will be a coffee table sized book with pictures and to get it done formed a non-profit company. The self-publishing is going to cost $10,000 - not sure how many copies in the run. The average tarot book published by a big name book publisher like Random House and sells for $14.95? Cost them about $30,000, but they have a marketing department, publicity department...and those departments work to make a book sell. That is why my book will only net me a profit of $1.45 for each copy sold. I was given a great opportunity ( their words not mine) by a different publisher who wanted me to make a financial contribution to the book myself, and increase my bottom line. They wanted me to cough up $10,800 in four installments. Hate to tell them but I can get it self-published for about $1200. "The best things in Life are Free!" -- gimme a break

baba-prague	06 Jan 2003
Hi, In answer to the question, I don't think Prague is really that cheap. It depends on the printer you use, the good printers have very up to date equipment - usually German manufacture - and they have to recover those costs. Personally, I wouldn't go to the really low-cost people as the quality wouldn't be there. However, I am beginning to think that Europe in general must be cheaper than the US (with, as I've said before, the exception of London, we used to pay very high print costs there). These quotes of $25000 do seem very high to me. Colour separation - well, we do it ourselves with one tiny specialist studio we know here - very nice people, which helps. It sometimes takes hours of sitting around trying out different approaches, but it does mean we get accurate - and beautiful - colour reproduction (the sample cards we've had done actually come out richer and brighter than they look on screen - with much clearer detailing). I suppose how you cost this depends whether you take your time into account - it is time-consuming, but we don't actually pay much money (actually, it's about a tenth of the cost we paid in London for separations!) I don't know about shipping costs. There is "printed paper" rate which keeps down the cost for something like this. I would guess (very very rough guess) that it would add about $1 a pack to ship if you were sending large quantities. Individual packs would cost up to $4/5 to ship registered airmail, but quantity does tend to be a lot cheaper. Anyway, as I say, it's only a guess. After all this talk, I wish we could offer to set up some kind of service to print and supervise production for other people, but at the moment we just couldn't give the time. Maybe in the future, once we've got our own deck out we will think about this one. Meantime, I'm happy to help with answering any questions I can. Best wishes, Karen

Demonesse	06 Jan 2003
Demonese? You in England? ---HudsonGray. Er, no. :P Or I wouldn't have said anything would be cheaper, would I? Their 'small' runs of decks is 2,000-3,000 decks. Each deck will be a MINIMUM of $5 to print, usually higher. ---HudsonGray Actually, I think the $5 minimum isn't too bad. The problem would be the 'small' runs, but I don't think there's any requirement for such a huge printing here.

HudsonGray	06 Jan 2003
Well, yeah, $5 is a lot less than $45, depends on the print run. Nobody wants to handle a run of 200 decks, it's too small a job for them. And who can afford to get 3,000 made up all at once (much less store them for sale). My aunt & uncle self published two children's books back in the late 1980's--they only did 300 of each & had to handle the marketing & sales all on their own. It filled up two closets plus. I think they still have a few. Still, I wish the process was streamlined, economical, affordable, something you didn't need to take a second mortgage out on your house to be able to DO. *Sigh*. What we need is someone willing to do limited run art decks for the group, with good rates, for artist decks. IN country, preferrably. Anyone who wants to spread the word around, feel free!

juice	07 Jan 2003
One thing I often have said at fairs and other places where artists are trying to sell their stuff of all make and manufacture, not just ink on object.... "ooooh I like that. Too bad I can't afford to support the arts." My curiousity about self printed decks just went up. For $25,000 US I could buy an awful lot of equipment and supplies. Sure I'd get fewer decks. But I'de own the equipment afterwards, if it survived the work load. I spend more time. Yada yada yada. Yes printers may produce better quality sometimes at an amazingly high price. It might be an option to produce your first ten decks as ordered just to see if there is a market. I suspect the process would involve glueing layers together. It might not make the decks cheap. It could make it possible for less than the price of a house's down payment. Don't misunderstand me. I know that self printing is not a cheap option. A friend printed a 48-60 page book. It cost her about $15US per book just for the paper and ink and parts on the printer. She only ended up with about 20 books. She used up a lot of ink with full page art work. She didn't go and get the best printer for the job. She rejected pages for flaws other couldn't see. On the other side.. she did not use the best printer. She used one of the more expensive ink options available. She hadn't realized how much it would cost and had not prepared ahead of time.

Dajax	08 Jan 2003
$65 to $130 might seem like a lot of money for a self-published deck, but as in the case with the Portals...you aren't getting a copy of the artwork...you are getting the originals, made by the actual artist's hands. Like Samantha, the prices we were being quoted to have the deck printed elsewhere would have doubled the cost and reduced the quality. Even the highest grade of laser copies, flattened the luminous quality of the art. SO, we bought printers...two of them. One for the deck itself, which is printed on matte linen paper..and the other for the LWB, which is double sided. The cost of our deck, is paying us back for the printers. If I didn't print them myself, they wouldn't be as beautiful and luminous as they are. PLUS, I laminate them here, in my studio. So, we bought a laminator and lamination film. AND I cut them here...so needed cutting mats, which wear out incredibly fast, and cutting tools. Exacto blades tear at the card edges...wearing out the blades, and ruining many sheets being cut. So, I purchased Japenese cutting blades that roll along the card edge...leaving the card smooth, more precise...as perfect as I am able to do it. Then, there's the cost of the computer itself. My machine is not new...although a dual processor...it does not even begin to match David's machine in speed, memory or performance. The Portals are large files...I needed more space and memory. I haven't even mentioned the price of ink...or the cost of the fabric or necessity for a new sewing machine...as plain as my bags are...they are what we envisioned for the deck. This does not include my time, that's free. And what value can you place on the love and vision that both David and I placed in our deck? David and I don't make any money on the Portals. They were never about that. They were, from the beginning, about love. All we want is for them to pay themselves off and maybe take us to a Tarot Conference. We aren't there yet. We do put the deck on lay-a-way for those who request it. We know it's pricey....we also know it's worth every penny . Finally, handling a self-produced deck...like for example, the Simple Tarot (which I adore) or the Eternal Dream or Carol Herzer's Cosmos Meditations...is like handling an heirloom. They are rich with the artist's energy and vision...the flaws in production make them uniquely yours...they are one of a kind, personal treasures. All Tarot decks are treasures...but a self-published deck is literally the difference between owning a poster of your favorite art versus the original. When David and I have the Minor's completed, we will have no choice but to have them copied. To self-produce a full deck as luminous as the Major's would not only be astronomically time consuming...it would be ridiculously cost prohibitive. David is optimistic that we will find someplace to print them on Watercolor paper which will retain some of the current deck's richness...but again, the full deck will not be cheap. But the Portals are just that, portals. Their beauty lies in the ability to 'enter' them into wherever they take you...a flattened portal is basically...flat. So, this is my rather wordy glimpse into how I produce the Portals. It's not as simple or as cheap as one might think. Respectfully,

tarotbear	08 Jan 2003
During Yule I bought a *ahem* 'self-published' book off eBay. There was a great colored picture on the selling site, and the book sounded interesting- using Tarot for 'play' using grids and layouts developed by the author. The book cost $14.95 plus shipping. It is a 22-page book printed off someone's personal lazer printer, with a cover bought at STAPLES for $1.25. There is no color, only b/w front page. A third of the book is the layouts with no text. Although the book is interesting, I still feel ripped off. I was expecting AT LEAST that it would be (spiral) bound, not just pages slipped through three split-tab fasteners. Self-published does not necessarily mean 'high-quality'. Based on her example, my manuscript at 160 pages spiral bound should then cost you $110 plus shipping... PLEASE ORDER NOW! OPERATORS ARE STANDING BY.........

Khatruman	08 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Dajax David and I don't make any money on the Portals. They were never about that. They were, from the beginning, about love. All we want is for them to pay themselves off and maybe take us to a Tarot Conference. We aren't there yet. When David and I have the Minor's completed, we will have no choice but to have them copied. To self-produce a full deck as luminous as the Major's would not only be astronomically time consuming...it would be ridiculously cost prohibitive. David is optimistic that we will find someplace to print them on Watercolor paper which will retain some of the current deck's richness...but again, the full deck will not be cheap. But the Portals are just that, portals. Their beauty lies in the ability to 'enter' them into wherever they take you...a flattened portal is basically...flat. As one who awaits one of your hand-printed decks, I have nothing but utmost respect for what you are doing. I know that when I receive them shortly, they will be amazing heirlooms that I will treasure. David and Traci, you belong at a tarot convention for your dedication to the tarot. Look for an elated thread to spring up after that package is delivered into my anxious hands!!! You two are doing an amazing thing, and my $100 will certainly not be missed since my joy at your cards will make it worth tenfold that cost! Peace!

Demonesse	08 Jan 2003
You, know, back to the original thread, I still wouldn't buy such an expensive deck - but thanks to you all I am now in love with...(not the Amber, Salvador Dali, Portal, Transformational, Hero's Journey, Blue Rose et al) ..but the Animal! Gorgeous :)

The Way Out Of My Price Range.. thread was originally posted on 05 Dec 2002 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.