Ethnic Decks

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 21 Jan 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Cat	21 Jan 2003
I was just wondering how people of different cultural backgrounds feel about decks based on their culture. I ask cos I'm Irish born and bred, living in Dublin, and I can't find a Celtic deck I want to use. I can admire and appreciate the art and the symbolism, and the detail in the mythic references, but none of them appeal to me in the least...

baba-prague	21 Jan 2003
Dear Cat, I mentioned on another thread that I have a similar reaction to "Celtic" tarot decks that I've seen. Some are done very capably and the artwork is perfectly nice, but it seems "cod-Celtic" to me - as I said on the other thread, about as traditional Irish, or Celtic, as Riverdance! (yes, I know a lot of people like Riverdance, and that's fine by me, why not? But it is a commercial interpretation, nothing like the real thing). I spent a lot of time years ago reading Irish literature and mythology, much of which is wonderful and very distinctive, and it would be marvelous to see a deck that reflected this in more depth. There is so much there that really relates to Tarot. What about the Hanged Man for example? Robert Graves talks about this in the White Goddess and says it is a Celtic image. I would love to see a deck that went beyond prettiness and really took up this type of Celtic imagery in a thoughtful way. In answer also to your broader question about "ethnic decks", well, we (myself and my Russian partner Alex) are in the position right now of doing the Tarot of Prague and it's causing us a lot of thought. One or two friends here asked us if it was going to be a kind of tourist version of Prague or the "real thing" (whatever that is, I guess it depends a bit on your own viewpoint). It's genuinely difficult to get it right - in fact since Christmas we have been doing a complete redesign of everything to try to reflect Prague and it's amazing history and mythology better. (this means that the cards on our site will in many cases change a lot before they are published - watch this space!) I'm not Czech, so in some ways I wonder if I'm qualified to do this. However, Libuse, the founder of Prague (who may or may not be a myth) was a Celtic woman so I tell myself that I do have a close connection. Also, of course we both live here in Prague and do have family links. We've also read, photographed, talked, researched, as much as we can - putting thousands of hours into the work and doing a lot of background learning. We really want to end up doing a deck that is accessible to people (you shouldn't have to know masses about the history and mythology of Prague to use and enjoy the deck) - but that is also serious in intent and in concept and realisation. We don't want to just end up with something commercial but with no other value. I suppose in the end one test will be how people in Prague like the result. I bet (perhaps I'm wrong?) that not many Dubliners use the "Celtic" tarots on offer - though I'm sure tourists like them (honestly, I'm not saying these tarots have no value, I'm sure they do, but I am saying they are not truly Celtic in my opinion). So, we'll be happy if we can achieve something that is well-received here, and that people feel is an asset to the city, not an exploitation of it. Hope that answers the question! By the way, is Tarot popular in Ireland now? I haven't lived there for some years (though I'm usually back about once a year) and I haven't come across many Irish people on the forums. Karen

baba-prague	21 Jan 2003
Rereading your message, maybe my opinions on "celtic" decks are more sceptical than yours. If I'm misrepresenting what you are saying, apologies!

tarotbear	21 Jan 2003
I admire baba-prague's candor concerning their Prague deck. A deck should be accessible to the knowledge without having to delve into a lot of history or needing a Fodor's guide book to use it. Being very, very Italian (pollux still doesn't believe this), my question is "What's enthnic and what's stereotype?" Do the decks at Lo Scarabeo define my heritage to me, or feed someone's stereotyped concept of what Italians are 'supposed' to be like - created for the 'tourist trade'? I wonder what Versace would have designed?

baba-prague	21 Jan 2003
Tarotbear, Oh - I just have to reply here. The idea of a Versace tarot is wonderful. I wish he had done one. I can almost imagine it. I'd buy it for certain! (and I don't even like the clothes that much - but love the porcelain for how over-the-top but fabulous it is) btw, I think you are right about stereotypes, there is always a blurred line between clear identity and stereotyping, I blush now to think about some of the ludicrous stereotypes I had of Russians - before I found myself living with a (vegetarian, virtually non-drinking, follower of Zen and yoga) Russian! I suppose we all tend to stereotype cultures we aren't familiar with? karen

Osher	21 Jan 2003
I suppose by ethnic you mean cultural? Whether that be English, Mongolian or anything else? Anyway, being from Israel, one does see decks based on the near east (the old, and far better, term for the middle east). Kazanlar is a good example of this. Nothing to my mind which is actually Israeli in origin (I wait to be corrected!), but many decks which have Kabbalistic elements in them, which I can relate to. (it is mildly amusing though to see how people transliterate Hebrew, sometimes some strange results) On the obverse I do really enjoy it when the artist has taken time to see the local culture, and incorporate it into the card. Yet, the reverse is when local culture is limited to a few small changes to RWS, so that a tarot pack can be sold as 'African', 'Aztec' or whatever. Of course the whole point, I suspect, that people feel more comfortable with certain imagery. No doubt (apologies for any sterotyping) a shamrock will mean more to an Irishman, than an Englishman. QED, that someone from that culture will prefer imagery they can relate to.

Cat	21 Jan 2003
Baba-prague, you pretty much summed up my opinion of Celtic decks - I was just somewhat reluctant to be too skeptical about them on a forum where so many people seem to have a fondness for them. Discussing this with a friend, we both felt that one of the major problems, for us, is that the decks felt slightly 'California Celtic' - not enough rain, for one thing :). The cards just don't look local to me. Where I'm concerned, also, another quibble comes from the many versions of each myth - I often find that the way the story is interpreted on the cards doesn't fit into my own understanding or interpretation. Not that you can't learn from someone elses view point, but sometimes they just feel wrong. It may also be that I'm just too drenched in the whole Celtic art and culture thing to be able to view it in anything other than a mundane light. Perhaps I'll just have to create my own deck....

ihcoyc	21 Jan 2003
I am of Scandinavian background, and read some Norse and understand a bit of spoken Swedish. I have no desire to see Scandinavian or Swedish themes in a tarot deck. There's no tradition of tarot divinaion in Scandinavia, although the tarok game is played in some areas of Denmark. There is no need to create a Scandinavian divination tarot in any case; we have runes. It would probably turn into some loopy Wicca/Ásatrú mélange in any case, based on Norse myth figures with newly invented goddesses added, and I wouldn't want that in any case. I am drawn to decks with French or Italian names, not because I am of French or Italian ancestry, but because tarot is.

blue_fusion	22 Jan 2003
i'm from the philippines and there's actually a filipino tarot deck. here's the only link i could find to it: http://www.happening.com.sg/art/features/1997/september/brenda/ i have a certain fondness for it (as the philippines is not as famous asother countries in the world). also, the images somehow appeal to me as a filipino. sadly, i can't seem to find any other info about this deck on the internet. personally, my taste's rather ecclectic, so i am drawn to what i personally find beautiful or meaningful. :) me and my friend are planning to do a pictorial collage deck on Manila or Intramuros, featuring colonial aqrchitecture as well as other distinctive areas of the city. that is, when we do get some time off our studies. maybe this summer...

Demonesse	22 Jan 2003
The Chinese is quite nice (one of its authors is Chinese), even if some of the images do not fit the meanings. Journey to the Orient does not seem to be quite up to par (mixing up cultures?) from the few scans I've seen (haven't seen enough to judge though). Feng Shui is loathsome as a cultural representation, even though the art is pretty. The latter two seem to be what Occidental culture perceives Oriental culture to be.

blue_fusion	23 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Demonesse [b] The Chinese is quite nice (one of its authors is Chinese), even if some of the images do not fit the meanings. B] i too find it nice. actually, i've seen another one done with simple red and black brushstrokes reminiscent of calligraphy. it does seem aesthetically pleasing, showcasing some form of simplified art. however i'm not really sure about the relevance of this to the actual charaters used (or if the images were based on characters in the first place). i would love to see a chinese calligrapher do a take on tarot, though. :) Quote: Originally posted by Demonesse Feng Shui is loathsome as a cultural representation, even though the art is pretty. The latter two seem to be what Occidental culture perceives Oriental culture to be. true. however, i also find the reverse present in my country - that we have our own preconceived notions about westerners. oh well. i do try to keep an open mind whenever encountering foreign culture, though. :)

The Ethnic Decks thread was originally posted on 21 Jan 2003 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.