Five of Swords - Spiral Deck

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 08 Jan 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

firemaiden	08 Jan 2003
Death by drowing? I don't like this card! It is so scary, it looks like a scene from the sinking of the Titanic, a dead body floats in the water, a desperate woman hangs off a raft, and a scary guy who looks like a pirate is preventing her from climbing abord. This one looks like it is about crushing your fellow man to survive. I see that the RW card is not nearly so dark. Any thoughts?

Maan	08 Jan 2003
Hi Firemaiden As you see this card it certainly sounds very cruel. I usally view it as considering the concequences of ones actions. You can try to win at any cost but do you really want to drown someone? Love and light Maan

jema	08 Jan 2003
this card is one of many in the spiral deck that i really like. not because i find it pretty or nice, but because it makes me react. and i find that i more often then not identify with the guy on the raft a lot more then the woman in the water and that this card for me is about the fine line between being assertive and/or being cruel. the 5 of swords is a harsh card in most decks and perhaps the waite-smith is really showing us the situation after the fact while the spiral shows us the situation while it is happening.

firemaiden	08 Jan 2003
I am afraid I mostly identify with the woman in the water...the card certainly is rich, isn't it.

jema	09 Jan 2003
oh yes it sure is a rich deck. the three of swords is one of the best 3 s cards i have seen and i also like the 10 swords a lot. she really captures a lot of action and emotion in her minors that on the surface looks simple.

Major Tom	09 Jan 2003
The Spiral is the deck I use most often. :) It's very gratifing to see it as number 8 in the Top 10 decks of 2002. :D I pulled out the 5 of Swords to have a good look and can't see the dead body in the water? There is something that appears to me to be a rock with the waves crashing over it.... I also tend to identify with the guy on the raft, though there've been times I indentified with the one in the water. I like the idea of looking at it as considering the consequences of your actions, but I usually look at it as meaning self-defense, the response to feeling threatened.

firemaiden	09 Jan 2003
Hi Tom, that is interesting, shows what horrible things are going on in my mind if I see a dead body in a rock. But it sure looks like a drowned person to me -- a white creature, arms overhead, a mane of hair the same color as that of the person hanging off the raft...

Pollux	09 Jan 2003
I like the Spiral's rendition too - and happy about Spiral being in the Top 10 as well, your campaign worked Major Tom! :D *LOL* I love the Spiral also because when the image is not strictly traditional (as in this case, or in the 3 of Pentacles, or in the 3 of Swords mentioned by jema and so on) it always proves to be an enhancement. :) This five is the extreme expression of self-interest, and how we choose exagerated solutions when a compromise could be taken. The guy's stare is kinda creepy, he's so determined not to make the woman stay on the raft, and he's so wary and angry and watchful... Yet there's no need to make the woman die just to save himself - his eccessive actions will carry pretty negative consequences that were not necessary for his own survival. And then there's the shame, and the defeat theme. Even though the man managed to "defeat" the woman and throw her in the waters, he's the really defeated one cos he can't see his own malice and choose wisely in diccifult situations, provoking tragedy for who's around him. When I used to look at it - I want my spial back, :( - I always identifed with the woamn as well, and pretty detested the guy. :P

jema	09 Jan 2003
firemaiden, i see it as a dead body too so you are not alone in imagining gruesome things. and i just have to say i think it is so fun to see that this deck is more talked about. it is on my top three list (together with Gill and motherpeace) for decks i use the most.

Pollux	09 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jema it is on my top three list (together with Gill and motherpeace) for decks i use the most. Does this means I have to get Motherpeace now? :| :confused: :eek: *LMAO* :*

jema	09 Jan 2003
oh poor pollux;) yep, the motherpeace is a really great deck. for me. i read here on the forum how people hate it but i think it is a good deck for me, it triggers my brain and spirit in a way i like. but get the mini-motherpeace! i hear that one is nicer then the big one. and you know you want it;) ps, you might also want the spirit deck soon, i think i will be using that one a lot this winter... oh and who got your spiral??? you need to get it back now! (so we can talk even more about it...)

merangue kitty	09 Jan 2003
makes me wish i had spiral, what with such detailed and emotion/meaning filed pictures as it sounds to have..as opposed ot my five of swords..which is two mice stabing eachother ő_0

Major Tom	10 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden But it sure looks like a drowned person to me -- a white creature, arms overhead, a mane of hair the same color as that of the person hanging off the raft... I see it now. :eek: Naked and floating face down. *shudder*

firemaiden	10 Jan 2003
Major Tom, sorry to make you shudder. Does it by any chance change or add another dimension to how you read the card?

Trogon	11 Jan 2003
[caution; contains some tongue-in-cheek humor ;) ] Oh you people!! Now you've all done it! You have me to purchase the Spiral Tarot!! :D I had a Barnes & Noble gift card burning a hole in my pocket. So, after reading this thread (and many others) on the Spiral... I decided that's what I'd better spend the card on. ;) Went ahead and got "The Complete Book of Tarot Reversals" while I was at it. (BTW, used the link from here so AT gets their cut.) Shame on you people... discussing Tarot decks like this... out in public and all... ;) (BTW, thanks!)

firemaiden	11 Jan 2003
So Trogon, what do you think???? How do you like it?

Trogon	12 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden So Trogon, what do you think???? How do you like it? Aaarrrggghhh!!! I don't know yet! ;) I just ordered it last night (just before I posted that post... er thing). It hopefully will be here by the end of the week. I hope, I hope, I hope... I feel like I'm left hanging till it gets here... :THANG:

firemaiden	21 Jan 2003
Well? Has it gotten there yet??? I am dying to know what you think. Since we have been plumbing some of the depths of this card, I have realized that of all my decks, it is the only one I really take seriously when attempting to do readings. Maybe because this deck takes itself quite seriously, and was put together with such loving care, and deep thought, and also because it adheres rather closely to the "beginner's standard" R/W (which I refuse to buy).

Trogon	22 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Well? Has it gotten there yet??? I am dying to know what you think. Alas... no... it has not arrived yet... :P I have high hopes for this week though. (This is why I prefer to buy at a store... LOL... I dislike the waiting... ;) )

Trogon	26 Jan 2003
Yaaaayyyy! My Spiral Tarot has finally arrived! It got here Friday. All I can say is As to the more specific topic of this thread; This card, the 5 of Swords, really has meaning for me on so many levels it surprises me. Having spent several years in the Navy and having spent many, many years reading and studying about World War II, the first thing I notice is that these people have had their ship sunk out from under them... either by enemy action or some other calamity - this was not caused by a storm as the sea is not that stormy. Another thought that occurs to me is that, while the person on the raft has beat out the others for possession of said raft - he really hasn't won. A group of survivors has a much better chance of surviving, if they work together as a team, than a lone survivor on a raft. He may have survived the initial disaster and won this battle, but he my not survive in the long run because of his own selfishness. Over all, this is another superb addition to my small collection of Tarot decks. Thanks to you all for bringing up this thread and getting me interested in the deck.

firemaiden	26 Jan 2003
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyy!! I am so delighted with your reaction. Funny thing, isn't it? I am so delighted to have company on this raft of loving the Spiral deck. And so delighted to have your important perspective on this card. I am glad that you said the guy needs others to survive on the raft. I was afraid that I (identifying with the gal in the water) would have to die. I have heard stories about shipwrecked swimmers all clinging to one lifeboat, their collective weight threatening to sink it, while those aboard have to cut off their hands or kill them, so at least the people already in the life-boat can survive...grim isn't it...

Trogon	27 Jan 2003
Slightly off-topic, but perhaps appropriate none-the-less. If a person wanted to get a deeper understanding of what I percieve in this card - the shipwreck perspective - they might want to read a book which I highly recommend. "All the Drowned Sailors" by Raymond B. Lech. This is the story of the sinking of the U.S.S. Indianapolis which was sunk near the end of World War II with tremendous loss of life. It is considered to be one of the worst "disasters" for the U.S. Navy at sea. It might give you a new perspective on this card, though it is a difficult book to read because of the circumstances.

magpie9	28 Jan 2003
The spiral has such a gift for making the cards more memorable than most. It's amazing to me how it fits the RWS template, but manages to keep the cards individual. Well, Duh on me...I mean that the 5 and 7 of swords get really confusing, especially to new readers because they look so similar. They can be hard to define, if you're not into tarot Numerology...(delicate shudder here) ( no insult intended to numerology, or any readers deeply involved with it, etc..) My understanding is that 7 of swords is more about spying, double-dealing, diplomatic battles, and generel Hidden types of attacks or Victories. But the 5, thats Balls to the Walls warfare, complete with scorched-earth policy. In this deck, the Barbarian has Triumphed, and if you are the one who has done the Triumph-ing....well, no one can accuse you of being sneaky or subtle,whatever else. Looks like a drowned body in the background to me, too. I don't think it was an accident that this deck does this with the 5 and 8 of cups as well, and the 2 and 3 of wands, then the 3 and 8 of pentacles....although it falls down just a little with the 7 and 9 of wands. I really appreciate the effort Kay Steventon has put into the details of this deck.

firemaiden	02 Feb 2003
Jesummaria!! I just noticed there is a shipwreck on the Death card too....HOLD ME BACK SOMEONE...I'm going to eat this card!!!!! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

The Five of Swords - Spiral Deck thread was originally posted on 08 Jan 2003 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.