Looking for a deck...

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 17 Jan 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Mr. Sluagh	17 Jan 2003
Okay, I'm just starting out on the tarot (still don't know if you're supposed to capitalize that... I'll alternate until someone tells me :-/ ), I got the Rider-Waite deck because it's supposed to be the closest thing there is to a "standard" deck, and, to be blunt, I LOATHE it. The art sucks, it's overly optimistic and I can't figure out half the symbolism for the life of me (well, actually I can understand most of the cards, but a lot of the metaphors are just Six Degrees to Kevin Bacon to me; I can grasp them if I really think about it, but they just don't pull that much weight in my little corner of the collective unconsciousness, if you know what I mean. Don't get me wrong, I like metaphors and I use them all the time, I just don't like these ones.). So naturally, I'm looking for a new deck. I don't know much about the Tarot myself, so I'm asking for help from you guys: (Sorry if I sound overly terse and demanding. I'm tired and I've got a sore muscle in my right thigh. :-@ ) —I prefer the idea of "Knaves" to that of "Pages" and "Princesses"; court cards based on level of subordinance rather than age jive with me much better. I also don't like the gender distinctions (I know a woman who's a King of Wands if there ever was one and has a husband who fits the MO of the Queen of Cups flawlessly), but those seem fairly universal from what I've seen and are probably one of those wishes that I won't get until I get around to making my own damned deck. —Art matters, but isn't all-important. I'd like a deck that's nice-looking, but not if it's a Waite clone. —I'd like a deck with either very clear symbolism that someone who doesn't know shi† about astrology can understand or virtually no symbolism and just very straight-forward imagery that you can make whatever you want out of. —This is probably another one of those desires that won't be fulfilled until I make my own deck, but I don't like the Tower. It seems to me that vast, monolithic institutions FALLING is much too complex a concept for a single card to encompass, especially a Major. It should just represent a vast, monolithic institution and assume that it's holding strong unless it's paired with Death, the Seven of Cups, Judgement, etc.. —I prefer Coins to Pentacles, although this isn't completely necessary. —One of the things that I hate most about the Rider-Waite deck is how it's not only overly optimistic, but has almost all of its pessimism concentrated into the swords, which makes for readings that are either overly sunny and happy or shockingly extreme ("Okay, okay, everything's looking pretty good... –Oops! Drew a Sword! Better make sure my will's in order!"). I'd like something that either has equal parts good and bad cards or cards that can mostly be taken either way depending on the circumstances and their position in the spread. Thank you in advance for any help that you can offer. :-D

Khatruman	17 Jan 2003
Wow, quite a list of demands. Well, not wanting overly optimistic decks rules out my fav, the Osho Zen, which is very easy to read as far as the pictures and ideas, but it is very much Oriental in nature and has much of the zen sensibility. I am not one with an extreme collection of decks, and don't know enough about the ones I am unfamiliar with to make such tailored requests. I guess of the decks I have I might recommend the Haindl Tarot. It is certainly not overly optimistic, though not a dark deck, which I don't totally sense that you want here (though I may be wrong). I suggest the Haindl because it does use some standard meanings, and it ties in other systems (such as I-ching, runes, kabbalah) and has multicultural references, without being new agey. Note also that, even though it contains all this other symbolism, you don't need to KNOW it all to use it. Plus as you grow in understanding of other systems, it will add more meaning to the cards, so therefore it will grow with you. As far as suits, it uses Stones rather than pentacles or coins or such, so I don't know how you feel about that. There is also a lot of mythology used, from Egyptian, to Hindu, to Native American, to Celtic. I have my deck away where I can't get to it, but I believe the courts are Father, Mother, Son, and Daughter, and the courts use famous mythological figures of the four cultures above mentioned. I guess it doesn't exactly fit your court card criteria. And the tower is an image that has become a bit notorious since 9/11/01 in that it is a skyscraper looking as if an explosion has hit it, though it doesn't really resemble a tower of the World Trade Center. There is, of course, a review and a few pix of the deck on this site if you search the decks, so see if they appeal to you. If it is something that interests you, we can surely help. Peace!

HudsonGray	17 Jan 2003
I don't know about the Haindl, I found it very hard to work with & the colors ended up looking 'muddy'. I could never get a good reading off it unless the question was EXTREMELY specific. We just didn't click at all. Mr. Sluagh, have you looked through the decks on the main Aeclectic tarot board? They have pictures of about 400 different decks, maybe an art style will appeal to you over there, and you can read the review on the decks you like to see if that's the one for you. We can recommend all sorts of decks (and I wouldn't rule out a RW 'clone' actually) but it'll still be up to you to find one that speaks to you. If you find one on Aeclectic, then do a www.google.com search on that deck & you should be able to find sites that will show you up to about 70% of the deck so you'll know what the majority of the cards will look like.

ihcoyc	17 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Sluagh —I prefer the idea of "Knaves" to that of "Pages" and "Princesses"; —Art matters, but isn't all-important. I'd like a deck that's nice-looking, but not if it's a Waite clone. —This is probably another one of those desires that won't be fulfilled until I make my own deck, but I don't like the Tower. It seems to me that vast, monolithic institutions FALLING is much too complex a concept for a single card to encompass, especially a Major. It should just represent a vast, monolithic institution and assume that it's holding strong unless it's paired with Death, the Seven of Cups, Judgement, etc.. —I prefer Coins to Pentacles, The deck I know that fulfils these particular requirements best is the Ancient Tarot of Lombardy. This is a Lo Scarabeo reprint of an early nineteenth century deck. The names are all traditional, in Italian. The symbolism of the majors is very straightforward. The art is quite attractive, for a traditional deck: this is an Italian engraved deck, with any number of variant designs that depart from the Marseilles standard. And the Tower is standing, no lightning, all the bricks in place, quite monolithic and sturdy looking. Of course, this is a traditional deck with unilluminated pips. You can read them with whatever traditional meanings you choose here.

Teal	18 Jan 2003
I hated the Rider Waite when I first began learning tarot, too, so I ended up with umpteen other decks that I DID like better, and finally went back to Rider Waite to learn the basics. Now I find that I don't mind it so much at all. My suggestion is that you not throw the baby out with the bath water. If you learn the basics with Rider Waite, then move on to other decks, you'll be way further ahead, in my opinion, and so will your budget. And I don't really think you're going to find any deck that's all sweetness and light------swords just carry what swords carry. And the Tower has an equivalent in any deck I've ever seen if it's tarot and not an oracle. I thought of Haindl for you as well, but the deck does have other symbolism-------Kaballah, I-Ching and astrological symbols on it and you didn't like that, as I recall from your post. Maybe you'd like Ancestral Path-----it's a multicultural deck with fantastic artwork and in my opinion, it's not a Rider Waite clone at all.

firemaiden	18 Jan 2003
I think you can learn the basics without the Rider Waite. (ouch ouch oooh, no, not the tomatoes OUCH).

tarotbear	18 Jan 2003
I wish you well, and I don't mean that sarcastically - but your list of demands is soooooooooooooo long ( I bet you also told Santa the size and color you wanted on your Christmas list, too ***only a joke***) that you would be better off designing a deck for yourself, rather than becoming Diogenes on an eternal search. Perhaps you could combine cards from different decks that best fulfill your ideals?

Rhiannon	18 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Sluagh I don't like the Tower. It seems to me that vast, monolithic institutions FALLING is much too complex a concept for a single card to encompass, especially a Major. It should just represent a vast, monolithic institution and assume that it's holding strong unless it's paired with Death, the Seven of Cups, Judgement, etc.. — almost all of its pessimism concentrated into the swords, which makes for readings that are either overly sunny and happy or shockingly extreme ("Okay, okay, everything's looking pretty good... –Oops! Drew a Sword! Better make sure my will's in order!"). I think there is a big misunderstanding about what the swords and the Tower actually mean here. The Swords are not a really happy suit on the surface if the cards are taken individually and without a context, but they can really give you some great advice and warnings. The deck wouldn't be the same if they were less than what they are. The same with the Tower, I don't see it as representing "institutions falling" I see it as "change is coming whether you like it or not, and it's your own fault for not instituting the changes sooner..." sort of card. If those meanings changed, it simply would not be tarot anymore. Ok, having ranted a bit... lol, my apologies.... I'd like to recommend the Nigel Jackson. It has a tower that is not falling over or being struck by lightning, some of the swords cards depict different scenes than the traditional RWS deck, and the minors have both scenic (RWS style) and pip (thoth/marseilles) style imagery combined. And it also has coins instead of pentacles. Check it out: http://www.tarotgarden.com/database/dbsearchengine.php?search_type=blob&pageenter=0 http://www.wicce.com/nigeljacksonpix.html http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/nigeljackson/index.html R :)

napaea	18 Jan 2003
well let's assume that the soon to be mentioned deck will not be suitable. i'll mention it anyway, cause it's a fave. * sorry, it is Pentacles and not Coins (i'm with you on this) * :) suits are King, Queen, Knight, Knave * i feel the art isn't over optimistic, there are some definite deep, dark, forboding cards. * it is a bit goth, in a renaissance sort of way * Italian, and similar to Rider Waite, but with own take totally hate it already? here it is! The Tarot of Secrets

Cerulean	18 Jan 2003
The two Lo Scarabeo tarots mentioned are very good recommendations--Ancient Tarots of Lombardy and Secrets. The Ancient Tarots of Lombardy is also called the Neoclassical by Di Gumppenberg 1810 and Pasteboard Masquerade gives an excellent review. Mark Filpas also reviews other Di Gumppenberg tarots (including the De La or Della Rocca) The site has excellent pictures and reviews of different modern tarots, including Secrets. Of course, there is always the simple novelty Tarot Nova, that is humerous, but not bad for travel. It is definitely not a RWS clone. If you like anime, Tarot of the Fey by Mara Aghem and Riccardo Minetti from Lo Scarabeo might also work, especially with the book. The tower in that tarot is definitely not scary and the archetype of the card has an elevated feeling.

Khatruman	18 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by napaea The Tarot of Secrets Ok, napaea, you have me totally intrigued on this one... more so because I can't find it other than your link...not on aeclectic, not at tarotgarden, not at amazon...what gives with this one?????

Lee	18 Jan 2003
Look for "Secret Tarot" or "Secret Tarots" -- Lee :)

darwinia	18 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Khatruman Ok, napaea, you have me totally intrigued on this one... more so because I can't find it other than your link...not on aeclectic, not at tarotgarden, not at amazon...what gives with this one????? This is the one I have on order. The Secret Tarot by Marco Nizzoli. http://www.tarotpassages.com/secret.htm Two more reviews at Tarot Passages too. http://www.wicce.com/segreti.html It's a Lo Scarabeo deck. Very lovely. How soon they forget. SOB

Khatruman	18 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by freesiaskye It's a Lo Scarabeo deck. Very lovely. How soon they forget. SOB Thanks for the info... I put it on my Amazon wish list... Now, was that a sob :(.. or was it an acronym..(Son Of...)? And who are they? :)

Cerulean	18 Jan 2003
http://www.spiritone.com/~filipas/Masquerade/Reviews/secrets.html I include this review so you can see that the images alone actually inspired a storytelling style in his review. This was a version that was released without a booklet in the 1990s. All versions that I have seen lately have had a storytelling booklet with it. There's a great write-up in the booklet that you can ignore or use to start for storytelling. I really find this a beautiful deck. Somewhat darkly reflective, but lovely. Riccardo in his Tarotgarden.com interview said the Asian or Japanese market really liked this deck. Mari H.

Mr. Sluagh	19 Jan 2003
Thank you all for your help. I'm definitely going to have to take a look at the Haindl and Secrets decks. Sorry if I sounded a little overly demanding in my initial post. Like I said, I wasn't in the best of moods when I wrote it. :-/ Thanks! :-D

Demonesse	19 Jan 2003
The Mythic is a good beginner deck, and the art is definitely more appealing than the Rider, though I'm pretty sure it doesn't even meet 60% of your extensive criteria. :)

Jewel	20 Jan 2003
When I first read your post the first thing that came to mind was the Osho Zen. I do not find this deck light or dark, but very clear. The suits are: Fire, Water, Clouds, and Rainbows (Pentacles). The courts do retain the the titles King, Queen, Knight and Page. Several of the Major Arcana are renamed and the Tower in this deck is called Thunderbolt. The artwork is exquisite and evocative. It is not a traditional tarot deck, but then again, based on your demands you are not looking for traditional.

The Looking for a deck... thread was originally posted on 17 Jan 2003 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.