Unusual Aspects of the Hudes Tarot

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 10 Jan 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

zagone	10 Jan 2003
I would really like to start a discussion on unusual aspects of the Hudes Tarot. This deck is known for focusing in on one or two aspects of a given card rather than showing lots of symbols -- however, the reality is that every background color, piece of clothing, map background, etc. MATTERS -- there's lot of symbology going on in this deck. I don't think the Samul book, while a good book, is enough coverage and I'd like to get some insights from the group on this deck. I'm a little new at tarot to be posting, so kindly correct me if I seem off. The books I refer to are primarily A.L. Samul's "Wisdom in the Cards" -- for the Hudes deck, Bunning's "Learning the Tarot", and Waite's "Pictorial Key to the Tarot". I may get confused occasionally as to what I thought up myself and what I read in these sources. I think this is one of the most interesting decks out there -- incorporating some of the best cards I've ever seen, as well as a few of the worst, but always educational and I can read well with it. I'll start by posting a few observations to see if we have enough Hudes users for a discussion! Thanks, Zagone

zagone	10 Jan 2003
*THE MAGICIAN* At first I hated this card. I liked the high-energy magical feeling usually shown in Waite-inspired decks. The Huges magician is a tinkerer -- thinkiing logically at a desk, building mechanisms, measuring stuff. I still prefer a more magical feel, but I've gained a lot of respect for this card as I've studied it. According to Samul he stands for "intellectual activity. Rational analysis. Logic. Inventiveness." Emphasizing these aspects of the magician character makes him a much better opposite and counterpart to the High Priestess and Empress energies. They are where the magic and emotions are, as well as the mysteries and intuition and nurturing. But its really clever how the magical energy flow evident in Waite and the tools have been worked in. The broader meanings of the magician are still there if you look hard. Instead of having his right hand raised to the sky with a wand in hand, he in wearing a pointy hat (the only one in the deck) rather like a witches' hat. Witches' hats have been linked with the idea of raising "cones of power" -- so in fact he is drawing energy through his head rather than his right arm, leaving both hands free to work. Right where the raised wand would be held in the Waite card, the Hudes background map happens to show a gadget that looks much like the wand, again implying the energy flow is active. The Waite magician points to the ground with his left hand grounding the energy. The Hudes magician holds a globe-like contraption thereby grounding the energy, funneling it into his work, and at the same time taking the measure of the world with the protractor (wand) in his other hand! Hudes manages to work in the cup, sword, book, etc. just to have them there for form's sake. There's even a lone flower in the cup to give the card at least some nature connection.

zagone	10 Jan 2003
*MAPS* In the Hudes Tarot the Queens and Kings have background maps, as do the Magician, Chariot, Star, and World cards in the major arcana. In the Magician, the "map" is a mechanical blueprint, emphasizing the unusually heavy emphasis that the Hudes Tarot puts on the Magician as a logical thinker and concrete builder (somewhat to the detriment of his magical properties I think). The Emperor's map shows practically the entire world -- he rules all. The Queen of Swords has a astrological map showing Aquarius and sea monsters -- I think implying she brings Water/feminine energies to temper Swords. By contrast, the King of Sword's map shows birds (dead?) and men with clubs -- I think implying that he brings wands/Fire/male energy to the picture, and that he brings Air energy also (birds=air -- Samul's accompanying book draws a corrispondence between Kings and the element of Air). -- Zagone

juice	10 Jan 2003
Now where did I put that deck?

Diana	10 Jan 2003
zagone: This is one of the few non-Marseilles decks that I like - although there are some aspects which I find hard to relate to. I'm busy studying for an exam right now, so don't have time to join you at the moment in your thread (right now, I need to focus on one thing only), but I will be very happy to join you here when I have time. I received the Samuls book the day before yesterday, but haven't even glanced at it yet.

Kaz	10 Jan 2003
i never looked at this deck before, thanks for bringing it up, i like it. ~kaz

Kyrielle	10 Jan 2003
I LOVE the Hudes, but haven't had time to search out the new book that goes with it. I have never thought much beyond the aesthetics of the maps and such, but now I will have to do so. Now that you mention it, the subject does sound intriguing. I'll need time to think, though, before I'm able to post some insights of my own. -- Kyrielle

zagone	11 Jan 2003
Thanks for all the interest shown. Yeah -- dust off those Hudes decks and take a look when you have time. I was hoping to post some more observations tonight but I think I'll hit the sack and post again shortly. I'll likely post something about the 9 and 10 of Pentacles. Take a look if you have a moment and post any theories on what the woman's cloak in the 10 of Pentacles (also on the bird in the 9) stands for -- these are the only two places in the entire deck that fabric is used and fabrics and clothes usually mean something in Hudes. -- Zagone

Cerulean	11 Jan 2003
I like the clear reflections of Hudes. Her Star is actually very interesting and Leah Samuls has a wonderful commentary on it. I was happy to compare images of the Hudes to the Roots of Asia Tarot. Different style, but both seem to me to be nice examples of simple, effective images. I wish all companion books could be as well-written. Samuls brings up wonderful details that make me take second and third looks at familar cards. For instance, the Queen of Swords might also be known as Air of Water. Her archetype bridges or has a corner of these two elements--Samuls observations and the Hudes imagery seems to pick up on such interesting details. It is great to see this deck discussed with delight here. Mari H.

darwinia	11 Jan 2003
This deck has my favourite Magician in it. I find some of the Magician cards focus too much on the trickster aspect of the archetype. The one in the World Spirit deck is like that and I don't like it, it reduces the majestic flavour of the Magus. So, I like the Hudes for precisely its scientific bent, he is measuring the world, quietly, intuitively and he expects you to settle down and get some work done! Doesn't he look unapproachable though? Is he trustworthy, is he a trickster? Maybe, he's not your pal, he doesn't do parlour tricks, he's a Magician, and he wants you to go out in the world and use your gifts. Hard to explain, he reminds me of an inventor working away unacknowledged and unconcerned with your opinion. "Be serious," he's thinking, I've got work to do, and so should you. I've heard people trading this deck mention its very sombre colouring and that the people are expressionaless or that there's not much going on in each card, but it's exactly this quiet, reflective quality I like. Plus there are maps......oooohhh. I once bought a whole CD of maps from Scriptorium, and it came with fonts that you could use to design your own maps. I made an antique map out of a fractal once using these fonts. Think of childhood and pirates and treasure maps and secrets and quests and all that stuff. I find some decks a bit too glitzy in their effort to address every symbol that was ever associated with a card. You end up with some great, colourful art that bedazzles, but are you pulling any thoughts from yourself or your own intuition? Are you merely conjuring tricks, or are you creating something that will change the world? To paraphrase Thomas Dolby, he blinded me with science.

rota	11 Jan 2003
I had only given this deck passing attention in the past, but now that I've taken some time to study this deck, in view of the obvious interest above, I've come to really like it. It *may* be more 'scientific' as some think, but what I really approve of is its artistic handling. There are a few Tarot interpretations that are noticeably Celtic (the Arthurian leaps to mind), but this deck is more solidly so than most. I'd now recommend this deck to a person of the Pagan or Wiccan persuasion. This artist's roots are self-evident without considering themselves to be the deck's focus. The classical artist who, to my mind, the Hudes Tarot most resembles is William Blake.

darwinia	11 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by rota [b] It *may* be more 'scientific' as some think Just a clarification Rota, I said ONE card had an emphasis and appeal to me for scientific reasons. Quote: The classical artist who, to my mind, the Hudes Tarot most resembles is William Blake. Interesting, I just bought the William Blake and I think you are right. The art "style" is somewhat dissimilar but the colouring is very alike, perhaps that why I decided in the last 3 weeks to finally buy the Hudes? I've also heard the William Blake tarot described as "too dark" because of the colouring, which echoes what many people say about the Hudes. Probably why I like them both. Thanks for mentioning that, I never made the connection.

SherryZoned	11 Jan 2003
I just got this deck..and frankly...It does not appeal to me at all..i am like...UGH...doing absolutely nothing for me!!

Cerulean	11 Jan 2003
Hello Redwood, what are your favorite style decks? Are you one of the people who consider the art of the Celtic Dragon most ideal? I think I remember you and dragons and a family style art theme...I realize the art of Lisa Parsons is very different from Susan Hudes and would like to comment more---but I am guessing that this might be more to your liking. The Hudes has a more unusual art theme that appeals to me, say, when I'm feeling a little more experimental about my inner mood. Sometimes I want a scenic deck that will almost be simplified into smaller themes...when I don't want my Buddhist Art of Asia, the experimentation of Columbus (Folchi) or the anime or literary bits from Lo Scarabeo/writing experiments. Strangely I find my Tarot de Paris, sometimes my Dante is better for reading for others. If you tried the Hudes to read for others, it might fit in that niche for you...then again, it might just not be your style.

SherryZoned	11 Jan 2003
Mari: I dont read tarot much lately..been busy..but the Decks that i have clicked with and used the most is the Feng Shui and Tarot of the Old path. I have other decks..I hope to use someday..but then I dont..and trade them away...LOL..so If i dont think iw ill use the deck..I trade it off.... So i think it is whatever clicks..nothing specific..i have traded off many a deck.. I dont like the people lol..they look liek the same person with different clothes!

Cerulean	11 Jan 2003
I can see why Hudes might be not a good choice for Redwood... Lee's review on Tarot Passages is wonderful and tempted me to buy the Hudes...and the book was coming out soon, so that was why I choose it. Hudes does have a look that seems to be hand-drawn and rougher than Feng Shui and Old Path. I think the colors of Hudes is rich, and painterly, but not modern or luminious. If were a Japanese term, this would be Mingei or folk craft, strong and detailed in a different way...the maps for instance, are symbols of a useful craft, the robes and covered forms are quite medieval. I like the Hudes in the same way I like Folchi's Tarot of Columbus, there's something strong and old world about it. Feng Shui and Old Path have colors with transparency and very clean linework, if I remember. I think you were also considering the Fey, which has a soft style and quite beautiful colors...more luminious and definitely modern. If it were a Japanese term, I'd say shojo animation and the Fey is more your style. Thanks for allowing me to do this comparison so I can place the Hudes mentally in my collection. Mari H.

Cocobird55	11 Jan 2003
The Hudes is one of my favorite decks. It has a great Death card -- with a butterfly coming out of a skeleton... Sue

Keslynn	12 Jan 2003
I had this deck but I traded it away because it was so darned reflective. Reflective does nothing for me at all. I need color and bright and loud!!! No, I'm not a hyperactive person. I just play one on TV. ;) At any rate, I liked the antique papers and the Death card, but that just wasn't enough to make this a usable deck for me. Oh well... Onto others. There are many more out there. :) Kes

brennamor	12 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Cocobird55 The Hudes is one of my favorite decks. It has a great Death card -- with a butterfly coming out of a skeleton... Sue Sue, I couldn't agree with you more. This deck has truly grown on me. For a long time it didn't do anything for me and I didn't buy it. Then I was at a conference and Geraldine Amaral had this deck. I look through the images and they tugged at me. This definitely is not the deck to use when you need something upbeat or cheerful. But it has a majesty and dignity, its somberness and gravity give it a depth and a beauty. It reminds me of old photographs from the turn of the century. The people in them always look so serious - possibly because being photographed was a rarity and not the time for silly faces. I get that same sense from the Hudes Tarot.

zagone	13 Jan 2003
Mari_Hashinzaki: Yes -- The Star is one of my favorite cards -- She did a really extraordinary job of it! Freesiaskye: I like your observations on the Magician. The emphasis on use of gifts you mention seems appropriate and accurate -- and makes him again a good opposite to the High Priestess who is very still and passive and inward-focused. I showed the Hudes deck to some experienced tarot readers the other day who immediately thought the Magician had an alchemical basis -- he struck them as someone in his lab working for the Philosopher's Stone. Many people like the quiet reflectiveness of this deck, and some find it depressing. I like it both because it speaks to me well, but also because its a great study deck. If you are trying to study and memorize and compare/contrast, this is really a deck that puts you in a studious frame of mind. Freesiaskye: Regarding the simplicity of the images versus decks with lots of symbols, I think we have the best of both here. A simple uncluttered image upfront (as you said), but more meanings hidden in the backgrounds and fabrics if you want to look for them. Rota: Some of the deck is more scientific (like the Magician), but I think magic is evident elsewhere in the deck still (High Priestess, etc.). Why do you think the artist has a pagan/Wiccan background? I'm not disagreeing with you -- I see a bit of evidence for this too -- such as the "cone of power" Magician hat, and the triple spiral hair pattern of the Star (I forget the right name for that symbol -- bad me). What else do you see -- you may have spotted some stuff I missed. I do think this works well as a neutral deck for all folks, and she's done a good job of avoiding anti-Christian bias -- for example the Heirophant is the best one I've ever seen and far more positive than, say, the Hierophant in the Robin-Wood deck (an overtly pagan deck). Redwood: I've got Tarot of te Old Path on order -- that one looks good to me too. I agree the people look the same. It may be a flaw of the deck, but I'm currently working the theory that its on purpose -- perhaps an additional layer of meaning of some sort on top of the tradition interpretations such as showing the progression of a particular person through life's trials. I'm going to post on this theory with regards to the Pentacles suite later. Keslynn & brennamor: Yes, its very reflective -- I use the Robin Woods dek when I'm in need of a more emotional or upbeat deck. Thanks again for comments so far. -- Zagone

zagone	13 Jan 2003
STORY SEQUENCES ACROSS CARDS: Pentacles Example One of the more obvious features of the Hudes deck is how often the people seem to look the same. Another unusual feature is the curious-looking clothing. I have a theory -- and I may be wrong -- so feel free to refute. I think that in addition to the traditional tarot meanings (or non-traditional in some cases in the Samul book), Hudes is telling morality stories about specific individuals across the course of their lives. Let's take Pentacles as an example. Here she is making a commentary on how men and women should handle resources and attitudes towards work. *The Guy* The guy across the Pentacles Suite is the same in the 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 cards (and maybe the Knight and King). The only card clearly not the same guy is the 10 of Pentacles. Taking a look at the Samul and Bunning books on card meanings, and adding my own thoughts (or stretches of imagination), I come up with: 2-5 of Pentacles: In the Two the young man evaluates his relationship to work and to material goods. He wears the "official fabric of Pentacles" around his collar since to some degree he is evaluating materialism and wealth -- but most of his outfit is a neutral color since he's mainly concerned with evaluating his work (not a Pentacles function per se). In the Three of Pentacles we have a master craftsman at work -- his clothing does not contain the Pentacles official fabric since he's concerned with non-Pentacles issues -- knowledge and competence. The Four of Pentacles shows the man hoarding his wealth (created in the Three card) or clinging to his accomplishments as the measure of his worth. He wears the Pentacles fabric around the collar and green (the color of money and of fear/envy!) throughout the rest of his garment. In the Five card he's lost everything -- maybe the message is that clinging to wealth instead of investing it in life leads to poverty. Maybe the message is that the stereotypical men’s problem of measuring themselves by their work and wealth leads to a spiritually impoverished life. The guy in the Five is concerned with failure or with hunger and cold -- not materialism and wealth itself, so he is not wearing the suite's fabric. 5-7 Pentacles: The middle Six card shows the man weighing the value of work and wealth. What does it mean to have and to lack? To succeed or fail? To either side the Five and Seven show him without resources and with a full measure of resources. Interestingly, the vest of the man in the Six is similar in color to his robe in the Five, while the sleeves of the man in the Six match the outfit of the man in the Seven (showing that he's evaluating both the subject matter of the Five and Seven in his mind). In both the Six and the Seven he's evaluating his wealth, so the suite official fabric is in evidence. *The Gal* The same woman appears in the 5, 8,9, and 10 of Pentacles (as well as the Queen). If we think in terms of stereotypes and archetypes, woman traditionally depend on men for their livelihood (a condition happily changing today). Women are also traditionally family-oriented and are the nucleus/center of the family. 5, 8, 9 Pentacles: In the Five of Pentacles we see the women starting out in poverty following her failed provider. She wears no suite official fabric for the same reasons he does not. In the Eight we see her hard at work. The Eight is often considered the apprentice/learning of new skills card, while the Three is considered the master craftsman. In other words, the woman is just starting out on her own (after the disaster in the Five) or is outside her traditional role. Unlike the man in the Three, she does have Pentacles suite fabric around her neck -- because her concerns are practical and grounded. She's earning and building for a specific goal and cares about the money. In the Nine the woman has achieved her goals and wealth. She has finished the work. She's no longer thinking on wealth and material goods, so she does not wear the Pentacles fabric. According to Bunning she exhibits discipline and refinement -- unlike the scared hoarding guy in the Four. According to Samul she has attained "autonomy in a healthy way", or is "a single person who is fulfilled and doesn't need attachment to another person". Hmmm... so the contrast between her fate in the Five and the Nine shows that women should be self-reliant!! The stereotypical male flaw of defining yourself through your work leads to collapse in the Five when the work in done, whereas the woman in the Nine shows the right attitude. 9 & 10 Pentacles: While the woman has achieved happy self-reliance in the Nine, resources are to be used and invested and shared. In the Nine, she listens to a "Bird of Desire" who brings her news of the investment in family she should make. Note that the colors of the bird in the Nine are the same as the colors of the cloaks in the Ten. In most tarot decks, the Ten of Cups is known as the "happy family card". Per Samul, Hudes has made a bold statement by making the Ten of Pentacles her "happy family card". The statement is that a happy family requires the material resources of Pentacles in order to succeed. The Ten of Cups shows a rainbow and a bird flying high -- perhaps symbolizing the perfection of love and emotions however they manifest, rather than tying them to a family. In the Ten of Pentacles, the woman is the nucleus of the family -- her cloak dominates (and the Swords color is just one tail feather of the bird in the Nine). The man is dressed in the "official fabric of Swords" (and looks like a man used throughout the Swords suite) and their offspring wears the Pentacle fabric. *Questions on the 9 & 10 of Pentacles* I don't have these cards quite figured out -- assistance would be appreciated! a) What does the women's cloak color in the Ten and the bird's dominant color in the Nine symbolize? These are the ONLY two cards in the whole deck using them. I'm speculating that they symbolize the feminine nurturing, protective, family-oriented qualities. But if so, why aren't these colors used on the Empress? b) Why is the man wearing the Swords colors? At the risk of being crude, is he bringing the male/Air active thrusting qualities of Swords?... I suppose he could not wear Wands colors since she is the power behind the family? Thanks, -- Zagone

Sulis	14 Jan 2003
I`ve been eying this deck up since I was first interested in tarot but I just don`t know. Maybe it`s just too melancholy? Does anyone know of any sites where all the cards can be seen? Love and light Crystalmynx xx

zagone	14 Jan 2003
The entire Hudes deck can be seen at: http://www.tarot.com.tw/tarot/hs78/view.htm There are sites that show some cards larger and clearer, and the cards you actually purchase of course don't have the weird Chinese ink stamp image that's superimposed on these, but its still a good way to see the entire deck. -- Zagone

zander770	14 Jan 2003
. . . i like your name . . . it's my son's, and MINE, in it! ~770~

Cerulean	14 Jan 2003
Susan Hudes was a design graduate. I think she was using an artistic technique that would use a color element from the preceding card to link it to the colors used in another card. I like the echoing quality---it's used in the Fey Tarot by Lo Scarabeo---I like that technique especially in the Swords Suit of the Fey. The pearlescent or opalescent quality of the Nine and Ten of Pentacles in the details are very nice. I admire the storytelling done by others here on the cards. The soft coloring of the bird in the Nine of Pentacles and beautiful marbelized design in the Ten of Pentacles are quite femine and receptive, rather pretty in a gentle way. Perhaps you might say the dovelike nature of the gentle bird is touched on in the garden scene of the Nine. Disney had a way of showing their fairytale heroines singing and playing with birds to show how gentle and kind they were and how naturally attractive the heroines were to others. I must say that birds with big claws and beaks are not the most fun for me--so the magic this woman has is in her charm. Enchantresses in magic, beautiful gardens are in many fairytales, so this also reminds one of that strength. The cloaking quality in the Ten of Pentacles has an interesting strength coming from the woman as it faces the viewer: the man is at the back in blue, the child is inbetween the woman and the man. The woman's side view to the viewer shows a harmonious, soft marbelized color and she completes the triple metaphor of a family unit. Her particular strength is considered a very feminine color, at least to the viewer's eyes---she is the one that links the child and the man in the circle in this scene to me. Her strength is bigger than just the fruitful garden and a bird: she has a man and child in her circle. Just my takes.

Sulis	15 Jan 2003
Thanks for the link to all of the cards. This deck reminds me a little of the New Palladini tarot which was the deck I learned with. I think it`s the expressionless faces which do it. I think that I`m looking for a deck with a bit more movement. Love the maps and the colours though. The quest continues........ Crystalmynx xx

Cerulean	16 Jan 2003
Offtopic, but if it is maps that you like, the Nuava Mondo in Spanish and the Tarocco of Colombus in Italian/English by Amerigo Folchi has old-style paintings with maps. Wicce.com and TarotPassages.com have reviews and you can go to Tarotgarden.com to see samples. I thought to pair the Columbus deck and the Hudes for readings and different takes on the same cards. The Columbus deck has some decoration and variation in the pips, bold colors and interesting old world nautical scenes...but the pips are not fully scenic with humans, etc. Mari H.

zagone	19 Jan 2003
Thanks for pointing out the design school technique of echoing. The Nine of Pentacles is very fairytale-like and magical like Disney. I'm glad you caught that. I sorta saw magic in this card too, but I didn't feel like I had enough proof to say it. The woman is all alone and self-sufficient, and maybe even talking to birds! Sorta like a description of witch (in a good way) -- she even has on a black/grey robe. I may be stretching too much with this, but in any case there's a magic feel to the card. Ten of Pentacles: Aha... So its a circle of life thing with the feminine anchoring both the family and all phases of life -- beginning with the child, extending to adulthood with the man, and perhaps ending with death symbolized in the violence of the Swords fabric he wears? -- Zagone

zagone	19 Jan 2003
I plan to eventually post more analysis of unusual stuff in other suites, but I just have not had time or energy yet. I do have another Hudes related question though... Does anyone find that Hudes reads differently than other decks? Most of my experience is in Hudes and I find that most of the magic is in the placement of the spread of the cards (they always seem to be in the right positions) -- once the cards are laid out its mostly a matter of applying previously studied knowledge of what the cards mean. It seems to be a very logical, analytical deck (as am I). Whereas I just got an Old Path tarot deck, and to make a very long story short, symbols just sorta leapt out at me intuitively that led to an interpretation only marginally related to the traditional card meanings. This matches more how I read other card readers operate -- having meanings sorta flash into mind as they look at the cards. -- Zagone

zagone	12 Jun 2003
There's a new review of the Hudes deck and accompanying book (mainly a review of the book) at: http://www.tarotpassages.com/hudesset.htm -- Zagone

Myrrha	12 Jun 2003
Thank you for your analytical posts, Zagone. I don't have this deck but do like the pictures I have seen of it. The calm faces and subdued colors remind me of the best aspects of the Aquarian deck. Does your book go into the symbolism of the flowers on the cards? The sun has several different kinds of flowers on it, and the Ace of Pentacles has flowers, of the cards available on-line. It is surprising to see a poppy on the sun card, poppies make me think of night and dreams and sleep and visions, not sun type things. Myrrha

missmezzo	12 Jun 2003
thank you for posting the link to the images. Gorgeous deck. I love the artwork, and I'm particularly enchanted with a few of the major arcana - the star, the moon, and Temperance are some of the best depictions of these cards I've ever seen. However, I'm not particulary fond of the devil and the death card -although I the butterfly aspect in the death card is interesting. And I agree with some of the other posters regarding the expressionless faces - makes the cards rather static in a way. I think that's the same reason I never really clicked with my Aquarian deck, but I much prefer with my Robin Wood deck. missmezzo

zagone	16 Jun 2003
Myrrha -- Sorry for the delay, I had to unearth my book from the moving boxes. The answer to your question on flowers is "sort of". For the Sun card, the book says that: "sunshine is virtually synonymous with happiness... everyone opens up around people (with a sunny disposition)... In a sense, we blossom when we are exposed to them, just as the flowers on the card blossom in the warmth of the sun." Also -- The description points to the cloudy sky behind the Sun as either emerging from a darker period or as a reminder that happiness is not permanent and the Sun can go back into the clouds. On that note, the author goes on with flowers by saying: "Just as flowers need water to grow, so too do we need an emotional palate that includes other feelings than just happiness. But for now, the Sun is out." For the Ace of Pentacles, the following explainations of the flowers are given: 1) "We can only grow and blossom if we pay attention to our physical needs" 2) "Our earth too has physical needs. If we attend to its needs, the earth blossoms" 3) The Ace of Pentacles shows us the value of the physical in another way. Notice that there are nine flowers on the card, more than double that of Swords and Wands, and over four times as many as the Ace of Cups. This multitude of flowers calls to mind the fecundity inherent in the work of the Creator. " So... yes the book talks about flowers, but it does not use what is referred to as the "language of flowers" such as the Old Path tarot deck uses. One wonders if the artist was using it or not -- maybe someone good at language of flowers can take a look at these cards? I may get to it eventually... See the flower discussion for Old Path at http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?threadid=13701 . This thread also has lots of links to other language of flowers websites. I'm also curious to see nine flowers on the Ace of Pentacles -- a powerful Goddess number. Earlier in this thread some of us spoke about some subtle pagan themes in this deck, so I'm wondering if there isn't something more to it. -- Zagone

zagone	16 Jun 2003
Missmezzo -- Your comments are very much in keeping with what's often said about this deck. You love it or you hate it. I too think many of the cards in this deck are the best I've ever seen including the Star (I also really like the Hierophant). Some cards get mixed reactions -- the Death card is hated and loved by people in equal numbers -- there seems to be no in-between (I love it). I also hate the Devil card -- I think its terrible -- but I think I remember one reviewer raving about how sophisticated and cool it was! Same too with the faces -- they are what initially attract or repel people from the deck. Thanks, Zagone

Myrrha	16 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by zagone So... yes the book talks about flowers, but it does not use what is referred to as the "language of flowers" such as the Old Path tarot deck uses. One wonders if the artist was using it or not -- maybe someone good at language of flowers can take a look at these cards? I may get to it eventually... See the flower discussion for Old Path at http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?threadid=13701 . This thread also has lots of links to other language of flowers websites. Thank you Zagone for the information on flower symbolism. It sounds like she was just thinking "flowers" and not thinking about the specific symbolic associations each kind of flower would have. Maybe she chose poppy for the warm red color. They do need lots of sun to flower. Myrrha

zagone	26 Jun 2003
MAP BACKGROUND INTERPRETATIONS All – I’m preparing for a small lecture later this summer on Hudes Tarot, so I’m trying to flesh out some of the more unusual aspects for inclusion in the discussion. I’ve spent some time today trying to decipher the map backgrounds, which I believe in most/all cases have specific meaning. I don’t pretend to have figured out the half of it – all insights and ideas very welcome and appreciated!! Those of you with the inclination – get out your decks, and shuffle out all the map background cards for a bit of study... Here’s what I’ve discovered/dreamed up so far: I Magician: Just as this is a very mechanically-inclined magician, so too does his “map” background show mechanical devices. They can be interpreted as his creations, his discoveries, or examples of male-type actively-learned knowledge. IV Emperor: The whole world appears behind him on the map under his rule. Unlike other maps in this deck, there is no central focus point which he seems to hover over – he rules the whole world. VII Chariot: There is an astrological map behind him. The Star and the Queen of Swords also have zodiac maps behind them, but the Chariot’s map is a different one. Pisces appears to be ascendant, but I don’t see a fish symbol – I see a horse behind him most prominently. I believe Pisces is the beginning of the astrological chart (right?) and Aquarius is at the end… Youth often start out rash and charging ahead (though what this has to do with Pisces I don’t know). By the end, young men have gained some wisdom, and relinquish their heroic attitudes for healing and hope (taken from Star card explanation in Samul book). In the Star card, Aquarius is ascendant in the card and healing and hope are at hand. Pisces is described as very sensitive and having to follow the voice in their head – perhaps these are Chariot characteristics too. XVII Star: The Star is associated with Aquarius. On the map, the star is shining right in the middle of the Aquarius figure – which is the traditional water pourer usually used on Star cards in tarot decks. Note also that this is the SAME zodiac map as used on the Queen of Swords. The Queen of Swords can be thought of as “Water acting on Air”. Aquarius is an Air sign as well as being the water pourer. Its an interesting comparison between the two cards because the Queen of Swords is often known for sorrow, while the Star provides the healing and the hope that the Queen needs. XXI World: Samul says that the World card “signifies a synthesis”. The map shows two worlds or halves of the world coming together and blending. Two of Wands: He is dressed for travel and Samul talks about him leaving known areas for unknown, risky areas. The map shows the North Pole as its central point, with all manner of sea monsters and unknown fears drawn there. Queen of Wands: She covers the whole world (is at home in it?), with the North Pole as the central revolution point of the map. I frankly don’t understand why the Wands suite cards (wands = fire) would be in the North. Why not the South Pole, since Wands = Fire = South? King of Wands: The map behind him places him at the north coast of England, and shows ships denoting a travel theme. He can be thought of as “Air acts on Fire”. I don’t know what to think – exploring is intellectual (Air) and the north coast of England was Viking territory at one time I think (dangerous territory suited to Fire?). Hmmm, I’m reaching… Page of Cups: He is “Earth acts on Water”. His cup has the word “ocean” in it, and the outline of a fish on the cup. I’d say he is about to submerge himself in the sea of emotions that is Cups (Water) by taking a sip. Knight of Cups: He is “Fire acts on Water”. His cup has a map of somewhere in the south (south = fire). Hmm… passionate, stirred-up water maybe? Queen of Cups: She is “Water acts on Water”. She is completely at home. The map shows this. Although she is also at the North Pole (like the King – see below), the map is completely clear and readable. Her cup contains coordinates or a compass – she knows exactly where she is going. King of Cups: He is “Air acts on Water”. In other words, the intellectual male trying to act in the mysterious female element. The King is at the North Pole too, but his map shows nothing but monsters and the mysterious. The word “unknown” appears in his cup. Queen Swords: She is “Water acts on Air”. Therefore she gets a zodiac map way up in the air. Sagittarius appears to be ascendant. Sagittarius is described as honest and straightforward, and the Queen of Swords is known for straight forward communication. As mentioned earlier, the background maps associate her with the Star card. King Swords: He is “Air acts on Air”. He is completely at home. The map shows star constellations (up in air) with birds (air) and heroes and kings using staffs and branches in their hands. Queen Pentacles: She’s “Water acts on Earth”. I can’t tell where the map location is. There appears to be lots of water and rivers running off the earth into the water. King Pentacles: He’s “Air acts on Earth”. He’s got the whole world figured out. He rules the material world, and so we see him on top of a map of the whole world. All for now – please add to this. Thanks, Zagone

Cerulean	26 Jun 2003
I think you mean there's a horse symbol behind the Chariot? If so, it makes sense. Some planetory and major arcana assignments put Chariot and Mars together, then Empress and Venus. I'd also have to unearth my Leah Samuls book and Hudes deck. This is off the top of my head... Mari H. VII Chariot: There is an astrological map behind him. The Star and the Queen of Swords also have zodiac maps behind them, but the Chariot’s map is a different one. Pisces appears to be ascendant, but I don’t see a fish symbol – I see a horse behind him most prominently.

zagone	26 Jun 2003
Yes -- A horse is behind the Chariot. And the Mars/Chariot connection makes sense. But why is Pisces ascendant at the top of the map? Pisces is ruled by Uranus (according to astroadvice.com). Both Aquarius and Pisces are ruled by Uranus. -- Zagone

Cerulean	26 Jun 2003
At first I thought of Mars with Pisces or Neptune rising...but I found something about Pisces, with a Mars ascendent. It might have to do with the star chart that was available to Susan Parsons, the designer. I was thinking of the decanate divisions of astrology, a historical thing that I am interested in. The design choices done in the 1980s or 90s may not have true correlations, but if such subtle study is yielding new ideas for you, here's a resource for decanate/astrology relationships http://www.estherandson.com/Articles/art_ps96.html

zagone	26 Jun 2003
Mari -- Thanks for the link. Okay, its subtle, but sometimes this sort of thing does yield up new ideas for me. Actually, I tend to learn best when I have some obscure issue to solve, not so much for the obscure issue itself but because I have to learn so much basic material in order to figure out the obscure issue. In other words, by the time I get to the bottom of this, I will have learned a lot of basic astrology in the process! Thanks, Zagone

zagone	06 May 2004
I ran a workshop last week at the Mid-Atlantic Pagan Alliance's Beltain festival in New Jersey. It was entitled, not surprisingly, "Unusual Aspects of the Hudes Tarot". I was really pleased with the turnout -- I thought this would be an obscure topic, but people really seemed to have fun with it. We covered most of the topics that I and others have expounded in this thread, then broke into groups to further examine the deck. A few new observations: -- The group did NOT see it as a Pagan deck -- Similar to results here, half the folks were not taken with the deck, and the other half want to rush out and buy it! The deciding factors seem to be mood of the deck and whether or not you like lots of obvious symbols on each card. -- The rather obvious point was made (obvious in hindsight) that there are two types of map backgrounds -- navigational charts and astrological maps. These should likely be analyzed differently. -- More attention needs to be given to whether or not the maps and charts are in close-up or the person is far above them. A whole bunch of other good comments that (drat) I was not able to capture because I was floating group to group and moderating and we were short on time... I was also pleased because we had a mix of Tarot experts and newbies who still needed a 101 class, but everyone understood and (I believe) had fun. I'll try and offer this workshop again in the Baltimore/Washington, DC area in the future. -- Zagone

Cerulean	23 Jul 2004
ran across this link from Durer fan that suggests the Hudes' maps and beautiful art has a similar "Durer" feel http://www.bemyastrologer.com/albre...gic_square.html Hope that explains the maps a little more and some of the feel of the pictures as 'old' or 'medieval' to some reviewers. I think Dave at Astroamerica.com said the feel of the deck was similar to German woodcuts. Jewel-ry mentioned in a related Hudes thread that the Durer man in the cap also resembled the Magician card in the Hudes deck. Regards, Cerulean

The Unusual Aspects of the Hudes Tarot thread was originally posted on 10 Jan 2003 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.