Original RWS vs. Universal: loss of color symbolism?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 04 Mar 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

firemaiden	04 Mar 2003
I own neither, neither the original Rider-Waite Smith deck nor the recoloring by Mary Hanson-Roberts called the Universal RW, however, with all of the exploration of colors and symbolism I am doing, I am feeling the need to own one or the other. ON the learning Tarot site, Joan Bunning says to start with the original if you can at all stand the colors, anything but the original and you start losing symbolism. Between the Original, and one that is re-colored, like the Universal Waite, you mainly lose color symbolism she says I had a look in the store today at the original (why so expensive?) and found the colors much more striking that I had supposed from seeing all the reproductions on line, and in books. Especially the angel on the Lovers card, has incredibly complex colors in the wings. Here in Germany, I am not finding the Universal RW. Also, there are several different publishers of the Original here, and I am not sure if they are all equal: Königsfurt, vs. Urania-AG Múller. There is also one that is being called a "facsimile" version, also put out by Urania. It looks exactly like the original, but cheaper, and comes plastic case without a box. What gives?

Hedera	04 Mar 2003
Hi Firemaiden, The Universal Waite has been recoloured my Mary Hanson-Roberts, not by Robin Wood. :) You can get a pretty good idea of Hanson-roberts' style by looking at her self-titled tarot, or the Whimsical Tarot, for which she also did the artwork. Someone wiser to Pixie Smith might correct me, but I believe she designed the cards in black and white, colour was added by the printer. But there are lots of interesting things to say about the original RWS. Rachel Pollack has a *great* deal of extremely interesting things to say about it in '78 Degrees of Wisdom' , a fascinating book that (after more than 2 years) I'm still studying - and I'm usually more of a skimmer...;) By the way, I have a copy of the original-coloured RWS up for trade - I'll take almost anything you have for the ugly #%**% }). I live in Holland, so shipping should be fast and inexpensive. ;) Hedera. Also, you should be able to get either version through Amazon.de.

firemaiden	04 Mar 2003
OOPS. I'm going to fix that by editing. Thanks Hedera. Yes, I've seen the Universal. It is very beautiful, although perhaps a bit tame in the other direction, a bit too pale sometimes. I also have the 78 degrees of Wisdom. Yes fascinating, although for some reason, it is beginning to annoy me... hmm Which publisher do you have of the ugly one?

Hedera	04 Mar 2003
Hi Firemaiden, I agree with the Universal being too pale. I've recently aqcuired the Hanson-Roberts tarot, and I like her artwork a lot better in that one. I can live with her melonhead people...in fact, I know quite a lot of melonhead people (some of the metaphorical, some of them actual size...;)) Please don't edit out that Robin Wood coloured them - it would make my reply sound really weird! ;) Then again, I really *am* really weird...:D This might get us moved to the exchange forum, but never mind: I have the AGMueller edition, English cards, very boring backs. If it helps, the ISBN is 3-905021-32-3 Funnily enough, Rachel Pollack annoyed me *enormously* in her book on the Haindl tarot, the smaller, one-volume book. It might go a long way towards explaining why I don't use that deck (along with the keywords). But reading 78 degrees just makes me feel really scholarly, like a proper, old-fashioned student, something I've always missed, even when I *was* a proper student! I don't always completely grasp what she means, though - and very occasionally, at midnight during a dark moon, I have a sneaking suspicion that *she* doesn't always grasp what she means, either.....}) But that is strictly between us, ofcourse - I feel blasphemous!

firemaiden	04 Mar 2003
I think partly what annoys me is the analysis of the numbers and elements and how it relates to the meaning. It may be the basis of the meanings of the cards, but it is so pulled-out-by-the-hair, I mean so far-fetched, I just find it silly. Crowley spends a good deal of time writing about the numerical and elemental symbolism of his minors, in the Book of Thoth, but then again, he and Lady Frieda Harris have gone to great deal of effort to portray that very numerical/elemental symbolism, while in RWS, that is just so not the point anymore. .. Other than that, I can't quite put my finger on what bugs me...yet.

Hedera	04 Mar 2003
To get back to your original question: I just realized I have 'The Pictoral Key to the Tarot' as well; I should just look up if Waite mentions anything about the colours. He was, after all, a co-creator. I know *exactly* what you mean about the numerology. Pulled-in-by the hair, as the Dutch would say. Also, I tend to zone out a little bit anyway, when it comes to numerology. Somehow, it seems like such a *human* invention, not something the Universe/Goddess/Force/etc would work with. Numbers in general, I mean. Too stiff. Quantummechanics however - now, *there's* a peek in the kitchen of the Great Chef.....:D!

RiccardoLS	04 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Hedera Someone wiser to Pixie Smith might correct me, but I believe she designed the cards in black and white, colour was added by the printer. Correct. I confirm. Riccardo

Silverlotus	04 Mar 2003
I guess, even though the printer added the colour, you could still say there would be a lose of colour symbolism. But, as far as I know, there is no standard colour meanings, just generally accepted ones. And colour meanings vary by culture, such as white being bad luck for traditional Chinese weddings. So, I'm not sure you have to worry to much. Personally, I'd rather use a deck that was nice to look at then one that had ugly colours but was supposedly full of symbolism.

Kitty	04 Mar 2003
Hello! I have both the Universal and Rider Waite decks. Personally I prefer the UW for readings - it speaks to me better than the other. The reason I don't like the RW as much is the very ugly card backs - the blue and white plaid(?) - I think that it what the pattern is called - someone please let me know if I'm in correct. Whereas the UW has gold stars with dark blue background. Also the colours in the RW are too much for me - too much sensory overload I think. The UW is softer. That's my personal thoughts anyway :)

truthsayer	04 Mar 2003
i read with the original rws 25 years before i got my hanson-roberts and universal waite. what the rws looks like doesn't bother me b/c when i look thru it i see a trusted friend and not a mere tarot deck. would i feel this way about it if i had been exposed to multiple decks like so many of you have? i doubt it. the number of tarot decks out there now is imho overwhelming. i'm actually relieved that i had a solid relationship with tarot before i was exposed to so many other decks. i think it would be difficult to settle down to one deck with so many choices. now that i know i have a choice in version i use of the rws, i prefer the hanson roberts or the universal. i still have no qualms about using my rws though. it was good enough for me that long and it's still good enough.

Emily	05 Mar 2003
I have both the Original Rider Waite, the one with the blue Tudor Rose on the back, and the Universal Waite. I prefer the Universal Waite. The colouring and black outlining on the Original Rider Waite is so dark on some of the cards that you can actually miss features of the card which are important, its not a pretty version of the Rider Waite at all. I've seen other versions of the Rider Waite in books and the colouring of those seem ok but I'd steer well away from the so called Original Rider Waite.

Jewel	05 Mar 2003
I never could connect with the original RWS coloring ... got the deck twice and gave it away twice. I do like the Universal, and have it, and I like it a lot. However, like you Firemaiden I like colors! So now I am looking forward to the LS Radiant Raider Waite which has still not been published, but from the little I saw looks like it will be beautifully colored and brighter than the Universal. The Illuminated Tarot is a beautiful RWS clone, but at the moment too pricey for my current budget.

firemaiden	05 Mar 2003
Yeah, Jewel, we like colors. Have you seen more scans of the Radiant RW than are visible on that tiny upcoming site at Tarot Garden? OY, how long do I have to drool?

Jewel	05 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden how long do I have to drool? You have until July *LOL*. No I have seen no additional scans, but what is there shows me that the deck will have vibrant colors. I believe it will end up being my preferred RW clone. I am hoping that the colors have the vibrance that the colors the Bosch tarot has.

felicityk	05 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Jewel So now I am looking forward to the LS Radiant Raider Waite which has still not been published The Radiant Rider-Waite is actually being published by US Games. I believe they have exclusive rights to that deck, so they are the only ones who can publish a re-colored version. Other publishers can publish redrawings, such as Lo Scarabeo's upcoming Tarot of the New Vision, but nothing that uses the original artwork by Pamela Coleman Smith. Felicity

firemaiden	06 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by felicityk The Radiant Rider-Waite is actually being published by US Games. I believe they have exclusive rights to that deck, so they are the only ones who can publish a re-colored version. Hunh??? Then how come it's being offered as published by Lo Scarabeo? Oh WHOOPS, SORRY, I see, it IS US Games. I didn't read that at first, it was all together with the upcoming Scarabeo decks. I tend to forget there is any other publisher. LOL But how can U.S. games have the exlusive right? I thought her artwork, at least the black and white version of it, was in the public domain, and then what about the ones that are published by A.G. Müller and Königsfurt in Germany? Perhpas they are just re-packaged?

Jewel	06 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Hunh??? Then how come it's being offered as published by Lo Scarabeo? Oh WHOOPS, SORRY, I see, it IS US Games. I did the same thing *LOL* ... thanks for the correction felicityk Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden What about the ones that are published by A.G. Müller and Königsfurt in Germany? Perhpas they are just re-packaged? A.G. Muller and US Games have the same or similar relationship that Llewellyn and LoScarabeo have. They distribute eachothers products. As for Konigsfurt I have no clue.

felicityk	06 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Jewel A.G. Muller and US Games have the same or similar relationship that Llewellyn and LoScarabeo have. They distribute eachothers products. As for Konigsfurt I have no clue. Perhaps US Games only has the US rights, and European rights belong to someone else (or nobody). But Jewel is right about US Games and AG Muller. My copy of the Renaissance Tarot by Brian Williams says printed by AG Muller, distributed by US Games. Felicity

RiccardoLS	06 Mar 2003
It's all a big question mark, on the rights for the RWS, and no one knows for sure who has the rights. What I'm certain of is that U.S.Games claims to have the right on the deck. AgMuller buys rights and decks from U.S.Games. At the same time AgM is owned by CartaMundi, a big printing Company that prints most Tarot either U.S.Games, AGM, or LS... (and by the way the null printing cost are one of the reasons of the exceptional size of AgM booklets). Anyway, regarding the Koenigsfurt deck there had been a legal fight, won by Koenigsfurt, but they had to change the title for it was indeed copyrighted. On the global... a big mistery (imho).

Cerulean	06 Mar 2003
I can speak only for the few versions that I have on the Rider Waite Smith deck. I won a standard Rider Waite Smith tarot copyright 1971 version that U.S. Games had published, this version being the one in AE Waite's family collection. Stuart Kaplan's company paid Miss Sybil Waite and Rider & Co. in London to reissue this deck. My version on the LWB, box and cards say copyright 1971. THe ISBN was 0913866-13-X and it says 'the only authorized Waite version'. It was printed in Switzerland The 1992 Giant size is a magnified version of the 1971 printing and has both the 1992 and 1971 copyright noted in the booklet. The cards still have the 1971 copyright. Coloring on the 1971 smaller version and 1992 larger version is very similar, line quality is very similar as well. The ISBN is 088079-474-7. I can recommend a color-printed book with close line quality and coloring to the above, although a slight shade or paler hue at times. Tarot: The Ultimate Full Color Guide, by Hali Morag. Copyright 2002 , ISBN 965494120-1. The Rider Waite Smith deck, 1971 version as far as I can see. I do have the Diamond Waite and have seen the "Original," the Original being a version found in England after one of the World Wars. The Diamond is a rather pretty recoloring by an European artist and wonderful tribute to Pixie Smith, but the images are small for some. The Original was an anniversary reprinting, likely 1990? Some muddiness and a mustard blend of green and yellow. Others have said that if you buy a modern Rider Waite in the yellow box by U.S. Games, it's not far off in color or line quality...I happened to be in the market for a standard Rider Waite when the 1971 became available for under ten dollars on E-Bay. I don't mind good quality recycling of decks... The Hanson Roberts is very pretty, just doesn't work for me. Mari H.

Cerulean	06 Mar 2003
I can speak only for the few versions that I have on the Rider Waite Smith deck. I won a standard Rider Waite Smith tarot copyright 1971 version that U.S. Games had published, this version being the one in AE Waite's family collection. Stuart Kaplan's company paid Miss Sybil Waite and Rider & Co. in London to reissue this deck. My version on the LWB, box and cards say copyright 1971. THe ISBN was 0913866-13-X and it says 'the only authorized Waite version'. It was printed in Switzerland The 1992 Giant size is a magnified version of the 1971 printing and has both the 1992 and 1971 copyright noted in the booklet. The cards still have the 1971 copyright. Coloring on the 1971 smaller version and 1992 larger version is very similar, line quality is very similar as well. The ISBN is 088079-474-7. I can recommend a color-printed book with close line quality and coloring to the above, although a slight shade or paler hue at times. Tarot: The Ultimate Full Color Guide, by Hali Morag. Copyright 2002 , ISBN 965494120-1. The Rider Waite Smith deck, 1971 version as far as I can see. I do have the Diamond Waite and have seen the "Original," the Original being a version found in England after one of the World Wars. The Diamond is a rather pretty recoloring by an European artist and wonderful tribute to Pixie Smith, but the images are small for some. The Original was an anniversary reprinting, likely 1990? Some muddiness and a mustard blend of green and yellow. Others have said that if you buy a modern Rider Waite in the yellow box by U.S. Games, it's not far off in color or line quality...I happened to be in the market for a standard Rider Waite when the 1971 became available for under ten dollars on E-Bay. I don't mind good quality recycling of decks... The Hanson Roberts is very pretty, just doesn't work for me. Mari H.

raeanne	11 Mar 2003
Hi all, There is a nice comparison of several different RW decks on Joan Bunning's web site: http://www.learntarot.com/subjwv.htm The differences are fairly obvious even on a computer screen. In real life the color differences are even more pronounced.

firemaiden	11 Mar 2003
Right, Raeanne, actually I was thinking of those precise comparisons when I began the thread, thank you for posting the link. She is the one who wrote, that there is loss of color symbolism if you don't use the original. But if the colors are the publishers...than hmm, was it symbolism?

The Original RWS vs. Universal: loss of color symbolism? thread was originally posted on 04 Mar 2003 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.