Thoth-based?
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 10 Mar 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| Hedera |
10 Mar 2003 |
|
The Thoth was the first deck I ever bought. I didn't like it, never really read with it.
But my favourite deck (cosmic tribe) is Thoth-based, and the next deck I will probably buy (Rohrig), too.
Do any of you know of more Thoth-based decks?
|
| Sulis |
10 Mar 2003 |
|
Hi Hedera,
I`d say that 2 decks which I have which a Thoth based are Gill and Vision Quest. I also have the Stone Tarot by Alison Stone which is based on both Thoth and RWS but with `moody minors`.
Love and light
Crsytalmynx xx
|
| Kirali |
10 Mar 2003 |
|
I think the Ancient Egyptian Tarot by Clive Barrett is Thoth based. All the cards have elements of the Thoth in the deck but the majors follow the RWS name and numbering. Other from that it's pretty Thoth based, plus it has illustrated pips. I loved comparing the majors and court cards of the two decks. The courts are King, Queen, Prince, Princess not like thoth: Knight, Queen, Prince, Princess. But if you look at them side by side, they are very much influenced!
here are some scans: Ancient Egyptian - Aeclectic
Ancient Egyptian - Arcadiae
Ancient Egyptian-Wicce
I can't remember any other Thoth based decks except Rohrig and Amounra's deck 418 that will be coming out in a couple of years. That is a gorgeous deck! The colors are so vibrant! Sorry I couldn't be more of any help.
|
| Aoife |
10 Mar 2003 |
|
Don't forget the wonderful Haindl..... and a new British deck 'Atavist tarot'
|
| Hedera |
10 Mar 2003 |
|
Yeah, I realized during yoga that I'd forgotten the Haindl. I have that one - lovely majors, probably the best chariot I've seen so far.
'Atavist Tarot' ? Never heard of that one! Do you know of a place that has pics?
And Kirali, thank you for all the links to the Ancient Egyptian! That one was already on my wishlist somewhere, but just moved a couple of places higher.
Might make an interesting slant to my collection.... Thoth-disliker collects all Thoth-lookalikes....;)
I think there are some Thoth-like meanings in the Cosmic tarot, too, but I would have to check that.
|
| Icestorm |
11 Mar 2003 |
|
Originally posted by Kirali
I think the Ancient Egyptian Tarot by Clive Barrett is Thoth based. All the cards have elements of the Thoth in the deck but the majors follow the RWS name and numbering. Other from that it's pretty Thoth based, plus it has illustrated pips. I loved comparing the majors and court cards of the two decks. The courts are King, Queen, Prince, Princess not like thoth: Knight, Queen, Prince, Princess. But if you look at them side by side, they are very much influenced!
Hmmm... thats interesting because I consider the deck more RWS based than Thoth. The author said that the deck is based on 'the traditional Rider-Waite', Strength is 8, Justice is 11, most of the cards all have the same meanings as the RWS, and of course, the pips are very much illustrated in the tradition of the Rider-Waite.
Hence I dont think its a Thoth deck.
|
| Jewel |
11 Mar 2003 |
|
Originally posted by Icestorm
Hmmm... thats interesting because I consider the deck more RWS based than Thoth.
I agree. The motif is egyptian, and Thoth also brings this in, but that is about it. You might want to look at past threads on the AE where Clive Barret participated in the threads.
Hedera, to my knowledge there are few Thoth-based decks in comparison to RWS-based. The Cosmic Tribe, Gill and the Rhorig being my favorites. I have been told that the Stone tarot is also Thoth based ... I will let you know when it arrives. Thanks for starting the thread. I am also partial to Thoth Based decks so this is a thread I am following closely. If I learn of any more I will share them with you.
|
| Macavity |
11 Mar 2003 |
|
Then we might have to differ on our views of the Ancient Egyptian? But I'm prompted to seek out the other thread(s) rather than include the paragraph I HAD written! Heheh :D Perhaps it's INTENT that matters: One senses CB's considerable effort in incorporating (MOST of) the Thoth symbolism into the majors and courts, AND e.g. Kabbalistic colours and the astrological assignments into the minors. The minor illustrations are (imo) a good match for the Thoth keywords, better than (and different from) the RWS traditional meanings. For ME, it suceeds well as a "Thoth" deck. But then I also look on the (re!) reversal of the 8:11 switch as a POSITIVE move in "fixing things" - I never could understand the need for any change. I think it's moreover a good feature to leave off the explicit Names, Elements and Hebrew letters, in the AE - For intuitives? (not me!) BUT also for disgressionary use of GD stuff... as needed. Or as credibility allows, maybe? })
Perhaps the best feature is that it functions well as a "stand-alone" deck, with self consistency to the accompanying deck book. Better than the Thoth? Some of the mythology may be fantasy, but it's difficult to fault the Egyptian images. The 3D style is a nice feature and complementary to more "2D" Egyptian decks? Some of deities "colours" are slightly compromised by Crowley's scheme But no big deal? On a funnier note, someone elsewhere objected to the women being too "pert"! I guess so, but the guys are... rather idealised too? Egyptians were (in their minds) annoyingly "Ageless"! A nice change from (our) reality? But I'm (admittedly) biased... or maybe just old(er)! :D
Any more thoughts on the HAINDL folks? Is it really BIG (6"x3" approx)! Is it really DARK - As (sometimes) claimed? Is there minimal documentation with the Deck only? Could reading be attempted WITHOUT resort to the Two volume RP books? I sometimes worry about "multicultural" decks - How well does the diversity integrate? How long's a piece of string? LOL. Opinions are valued anyway! That said, I will (probably) buy one on the strength of already received information. ;)
Macavity
|
| Jewel |
11 Mar 2003 |
|
Originally posted by Macavity
Any more thoughts on the HAINDL folks? Is it really BIG (6"x3" approx)! Is it really DARK - As (sometimes) claimed? Is there minimal documentation with the Deck only? Could reading be attempted WITHOUT resort to the Two volume RP books? I sometimes worry about "multicultural" decks - How well does the diversity integrate? How long's a piece of string? LOL.
The Haindl cards are a little larger than normal but not huge by any means. The colors are muted colors, lots of brown. I do not consider the deck "dark", Susan Boullets art reminds me of the Haindl a bit ... I find the deck beautiful. I have not tried to read with it so I cannot help you there. You can now buy this deck as a deck/book set and it comes with a book by Rachel Pollack that includes majors and minors ... from what I hear it is not as detailed as the other two but that it is good.
As for the AE being Thoth based ... I think there are elements of both the RWS and Thoth in that deck, but I consider it more a RWS deck because of the ordering of the Majors and the illustrated minors. Qabalah and Astrological assosciations would be Golden Dawn and although I cannot remember off the top of my head, if strength is VIII and Justice XI I think he would have maintained the Qabalistic associations as given by Waite ... but I have not checked this so I could be totally wrong. I do like the deck a lot!
|
| Kirali |
11 Mar 2003 |
|
Ah thanks for defeding me Macavity! I stand by what I said, if you were to put both decks side by side you'd see the Barrett includes in his courts and minors and majors elements from Thoth. I'll take cards out to find an example for non-believers. You have to have both decks and look at them side by side to see. Also remember Numbering and Naming stuff does not have to be like Thoth for it to be influenced by Thoth
Let's take a look at a couple cards then. A couple courts, for example, get out the Queen of Cups from both decks and the Prince of Cups from both. The Queen in the Thoth has a water bird beside her and she's holding a lotus flower and a cup. In the Ancient Egyptian, the Queen is also holding a lotus flower and a cup and a ibis like bird beside her.
Now let's look at the Prince of Cups. In the Thoth, the Prince is riding a big black bird, holding a flower in his right and a cup with a serpent in his left. In the AE, The Prince is in his chariot holding a flower in his right and a serpent in a cup on his left. A black bird flies above him.
Okay let's look at some minors, The 6 of cups key word from Thoth is Pleasure. In the AE, in the background are a man and a woman definitely in the thoes of Pleasure. Hardly the RWS meaning childhood memories and such.
The 7 of disks in Thoth's keyword is called Failure. In the AE, you see a woman staring at a barren land. Not the typical RWS view of a lush garden and a man raking and tending to it.
and last a couple majors. the Fool in the Thoth deck has a crocodile, a white dove, the fool holding a feather, and he's in some sort of egg like structure. The AE had a man strolling with a feather in his hand, left same as Thoth, a crocodile is near his feet and a dove flies above his head.
Only a small thing in HP, they both have a tiny camel at their feet.
and the Sun features two children in each deck.
Well I must be off toting my sister around. I hope you see the similarities. It definitely to me seems Thoth influenced.
Thank you for reading my rambling
|
| Hedera |
11 Mar 2003 |
|
While doing a search for something entirely unrelated, i came across an old thread called: 'Thoth workalikes.'
It contains of just 3 posts (by Mari_Hoshizaki, Pollux and Kaz), in which they arrive at this list:
Alba Dorado / Enchanted tarot, by G. Gaudanzi (loScarabeo)
Adrian Tarot
Cosmic Tarot
Cosmic Tribe Tarot
Haindl Tarot
Rohrig Tarot
Stone Tarot
Tarot de Paris
Tarot of the Spirit
Gill Tarot
Vision Quest Tarot
I am One tarot
Book of chaos
Pretty extensive, isn't it? :)
I think the alba / enchanted may have recently been reissued by LoScarabeo under the title of 'Tarot of the Hidden Folk' but I'm not entirely sure.
Considering I already own 4 of these decks, and two more are on their way to me already, I'm not doing too badly.
The Ananda? Does anyone know if there is anything Thothy about the Ananda? It's been on my wishlist for a while, quite easy to get through German Amazon - I'd love an excuse to order it! ;)
|
| rostie |
12 Mar 2003 |
|
Originally posted by Hedera
I think the alba / enchanted may have recently been reissued by LoScarabeo under the title of 'Tarot of the Hidden Folk' but I'm not entirely sure.
yes, i've seen that too: first it was tarot of the golden dawn (wich i have) then the name changed in enchanted and now they re-release it with the name: tarot of the hidden folk...quite confusing i think: one deck - three names ;)
|
| Jewel |
12 Mar 2003 |
|
Originally posted by Hedera
The Ananda? Does anyone know if there is anything Thothy about the Ananda? It's been on my wishlist for a while, quite easy to get through German Amazon - I'd love an excuse to order it! ;)
I have this deck and will look through it for you and get back to you with more info tomorrow. What I can tell you right now is that it does have "moody-minors" and it is beautiful. There is a dreamy quality to the deck. I have not tried reading with it, but it is definely good for meditation. The images really draw me in as it has the 3D effect. The Lovers card is my most favorite of Lovers cards.
|
| Pollux |
12 Mar 2003 |
|
I don't see the Ananda as Thothy...
The Majors are gorgeous, and some of them might remind of traditional figures (whether it be Marseille, Rider Waite or Thoth).
But in all honesty I look at the minors as simple pips. They are pips to my eyes. With beautiful pictures around, 3d effects and landscapes, but there's no scenes and no such feel as moody minors. I don't read with it, but when I look at them it's mostly the design of the elements to talk, just ike pips do...
Anyway that's just how it works for me.
(If I have to think of moody minors, I also get this strong kabalistic feel, together with the peculiar dispositions of the suit symbols and the imaginary scene they are set in. I really can't think of Ananda as Thothy or moody-minor-ed. Even if maybe it was designed and meant this way, first off I don't read german and don't have the book and secondly it is not apparent at all... *LOL*)
|
| Kaz |
12 Mar 2003 |
|
jewel,
they are what you call moody minors, i love the deck (i have it), they are beautiful cards. is it thoth based? i am not sure, in a way yes, in a way no, its not consistant, i think its for a part based on rws and for a part thoth based. i cant remember clearly, but my foggy memory somes up with that the majors are thoth, and the minors rws. (i can be wrong, my memory isnt that good).
if you like i can scan cards and put them on my website, let me know if you would like to see it.
~kaz
|
| Pollux |
12 Mar 2003 |
|
Kaz tell us more about what it's written in the book!
Was it meant like that, disregarding what it ACTUALLY looks like?
Was that in the creator's mind?
|
| Jewel |
12 Mar 2003 |
|
Thanks Kaz! I have the Ananda, just have not worked with it. I would love to know more of what the books says since I do not read german either. Perhaps we need to go back to an old Ananda thread and you can tell us more about the book. Might help me in working with the deck.
Pollux, to me the scenes in the background convey a mood or atmosphere, that is why I consider them moody minors. But there is no right or wrong answer to this ... your perception is as valid as mine.
|
| Rusty Neon |
12 Mar 2003 |
|
Hi all! Let's not forget the "Love is in the Earth Crystal Tarot: THE Tarot for the Millennium" by Melody. It's cloney and non-traditional at the same time. Incidentally, Melody is best known for her crystal books.
You can check out cards scans and a review of this deck at: http://www.tarotpassages.com/melody.htm
I don't have this deck and don't plan to buy it. I mentioning it more for completeness.
Best regards,
rusty
who's making his maiden post
|
| Icestorm |
13 Mar 2003 |
|
Originally posted by Kirali
I stand by what I said, if you were to put both decks side by side you'd see the Barrett includes in his courts and minors and majors elements from Thoth.
Sorry but I still disagree with you!
Most of the imagery that you have pointed out, although similar to the Thoth, is not really surprising considering they are both themed Egyptian decks. Yes the Fool has a crocodile, and a dove, but the fool is also on the verge of walking off a cliff, which is RWS. He is also looking skyward in innocence, a meaning that the Thoth fool doesnt not seem to artistically portray.
Where is the eagle and the dog? Where is the bag carrying his worldly posessions as evidenced in RWS that exists in the AE Fool?
The reasoning for the lack is, although much of the Egyptian symbolisms used is the same, Barret has creatively used his own ideas to bring out RWS meanings in the card.
With the pip cards, well surely if the deck had been heavily thoth influenced it would not have used illustrated minor pips! This is the most obvious sign that the deck takes more from the RWS tradition than the thoth.
The argument about the majors, like the sun, is rather insubstantial as the thoth illustration has a holistic feel to it. In actuality the card is more alike in both meaning and art to the RWS sun, of flowers, and 'earthy happiness'. I would like to point out as well that the AE Star is very much closer to the RWS than the thoth illustration, which is only one example of that particular similarity. Another fact is that AE does not use 'aeon', and the judgement card is very much a RWS clone card.
The only argument that is valid, then, is the fact that the court cards are similar to the Thoth. Once again I need to point out to you that Egyptian decks are traditionaly very element based, and many of the animals are symbolisations of elements. Granted, your queen and prince of cups(the court cards in general) have an uncanny similarity with the thoth deck, but then you are very obviously ignoring the fact that there is almost no artistical correlation with any of the other minors. Oh, and the 7 of pentacles in the RWS is not a lush garden at all; its a failing plantation, and I think the man is raking up the leaves. If you read the definitive meaning you will notice that it is an exact match with the Barret meaning for the 7 of discs.
What it comes down to, then, is the fact that the majors, the naming, the numbering, and the minor pips are all RWS based.
Oh, and the court cards are probably thoth based.
I will concede that the thoth probably did influence Barret in his deck-making, and he obviously didnt want to alienate thoth users (marketing strategy), so he included some thoth features. Overall, though, I would still hold firm that it is RWS based.
:-]
|
| Icestorm |
13 Mar 2003 |
|
Just had a look at the Ananda... looks rather moody, doesnt it?
The pips dont really appeal to me, but they are quite well drawn.
Its certainly more thothy than Ancient Egyptian.
Dont mind mine rambling either!
|
| Macavity |
13 Mar 2003 |
|
Originally posted by Jewel
The Haindl cards are a little larger than normal but not huge by any means. The colors are muted colors, lots of brown. I do not consider the deck "dark", Susan Boullets art reminds me of the Haindl a bit ... I find the deck beautiful. I have not tried to read with it so I cannot help you there. You can now buy this deck as a deck/book set and it comes with a book by Rachel Pollack that includes majors and minors ... from what I hear it is not as detailed as the other two but that it is good.
Thanks. I now have my own copy of the Haindl. It has considerably exceeded my expectations in every way! :) Fwiw, I bought the third (combo) book - the "Reader's Handbook". It looks like it will be eminently suitable for my needs... Great Stuff!
Macavity
(Who sometimes considers jumping off cliffs - While an Egyptian Vulture circles overhead... and much like in the AE AND the Thoth! (I AM joking) Heheh }))
|
| Pollux |
13 Mar 2003 |
|
NNNNAaaaah no thoth in the Ananda..... :P LOL
Maybe the majors. But not the minors... I prefer to see them as artistic modern pips.
})
|
| Kirali |
13 Mar 2003 |
|
I'm sorry Hedera! I didn't mean to turn this post into a debate. I didn't realize that it was such a taboo to say that the AE is thoth influenced! I'm truly sorry.
|
| Hedera |
13 Mar 2003 |
|
Hey, Kirali, don't worry! I think it's an interesting discussion.
And as for the Ananda: I will just have to get it, I'm afraid, to make up my own mind (whenever I have some money again). Thothy majors would be interesting enough for me - and the beauty of the deck is of course justification enough.
Does anyone have the two volumes by Pollack for the Haindl? I have the one-volume book, but it seems a bit superficial, and very , very preachy. The things she preaches I agree with, in general (about environmental concerns, etc), but it just gets a bit tiring.
Is it the same in the earlier 2 books? And do they pay attention to the runes?
|
| Cerulean |
14 Mar 2003 |
|
Trigomo.com and Alidastore.com have posted on a new tarot by Luigi Scapini based on Cuban Santeria and Thoth meanings...the little that I've browsed suggested the Santeria was earth-based beliefs from slaves who were disguising their spiritual beliefs under the guise of Catholic saints.
http://www.alidastore.com/dn019.html
http://www.trigono.com/Tarocchi/tarot_lukumi.htm
People have posted before the Lo Scarabeo Fairy Tarots and Hidden Folk (Enchanted/Golden Dawn were similar names) have a humerous take on Thoth...
|
| Macavity |
14 Mar 2003 |
|
Originally posted by Hedera
Does anyone have the two volumes by Pollack for the Haindl? I have the one-volume book, but it seems a bit superficial, and very , very preachy. The things she preaches I agree with, in general (about environmental concerns, etc), but it just gets a bit tiring. Is it the same in the earlier 2 books? And do they pay attention to the runes?
Ah, I know what you mean. Perhaps it's the slight assumption that this is news to everyone? Though maybe that's a little harsh? :) But I'd like to know the answer too. As you may have read in the Introduction to the "Reader's Handbook" she says:
"In that book (the Two volume one presumably?) I tried to describe the artistic structure and symbolism of the cards, delving into their spiritual and political messages. I covered the cards' practical use in readings only briefly. Now comes the chance to explore that territory more fully..."
There is also the implication that the books are mutually exlusive?? I sense e.g. that (for me anyway) the "third book" will be adequate. I'm changing my mind somewhat on the Haindl being a simple Thoth-alike. It seems to have a whole "life" of it's own - and certainly an intriguing one! At the moment, I'm printing out stuff on Runic alphabets and I Ching hexagrams - Maybe it creates as many new "problems" as it solves old ones? It was one thing to get the Kahallah to "agree" with the arcanas, now we have these further uhm... challenges :D
Have fun!
Macavity
|
| Cerulean |
14 Mar 2003 |
|
The artist Joseph Martin memorized the Haindl meanings by doing an audiocassette tape he recorded to himself with descriptions and he listened to it while exercising at the gym.
I was really impressed and took another look at the Haindl and the third book everyone is talking about with compressed meanings, etc....thinking to do an audiocassette tape for myself with these descriptions...or do notetaking with a one card a day pull sometime this autumn. Seems to me to be a perfect autumn study tarot...just my feeling
Hope this suggestion helps.
|
| Hedera |
15 Mar 2003 |
|
Hi Mari,
That's a great idea about the Haindl!
I agree with you, it seems to be a very autumnal deck.
And the Quest, yeah, of course, that would be Thothy, too.
But from what I've seen and read (it kept fluctuating on my list from: 'have to have this *now*' to: 'not if it were the last tarot on earth'), that one is based on everything including the kitchen sink...
I'm changing my mind somewhat on the Haindl being a simple Thoth-alike. It seems to have a whole "life" of it's own - and certainly an intriguing one! At the moment, I'm printing out stuff on Runic alphabets and I Ching hexagrams - Maybe it creates as many new "problems" as it solves old ones? It was one thing to get the Kahallah to "agree" with the arcanas, now we have these further uhm... challenges
Yep, i'm starting on runes again, too.... I ching is a little too daunting, still. And I tend to ignore a lot of other correspondances, like astrological and kaballah.
Although I am starting to read a little bit more on the kaballah - just a matter of time, I'm afraid. :D
|
| Sulis |
15 Mar 2003 |
|
I`ve recently got the Light and Sadow Tarot which I thought was RWS based but since reading the book, which is excellent I`ve realised that this deck is Thoth based also, except with wonderfully illustrated minors. Unfortunately the Light and Shadow Tarot is absolutely huge; I`ve never encountered a deck so big and I just can`t shuffle it. It`s a really good deck for study though and the book is so easy to read and understand that it`s helping a lot with my Thoth studies.
Love and light
Crystalmynx xx
|
| Icestorm |
16 Mar 2003 |
|
Originally posted by Kirali
I'm sorry Hedera! I didn't mean to turn this post into a debate. I didn't realize that it was such a taboo to say that the AE is thoth influenced! I'm truly sorry.
LoL, perhaps I should add my own apologies to Hedera for intensely debating the AE !
"I swear, I will not bring the topic up ever again if Kirali lays her crook and flail down in submission to my superior argument!" (j/k ^__^ )
Seriously though, I found it intellectually refreshing that some people think the AE is thoth based. This has made me go and look up The book of Thoth in my bookstore, and now I am more aware of my deck as a result. Call it another angle of viewing my deck, if you like, but thx to Kirali (for the argument) and Hedera (for opening the post) nonetheless!
-Of course, the AE is still RWS based... ^__6
|
| Hedera |
16 Mar 2003 |
|
I found another Thothy on ebay, and managed to get it for 9,5 pounds.
That could be much more than it is worth, but it is a self-published deck, and none of the links to the author's website I found, worked, so I feel like I've gotten a good deal! :)
The deck is very colourful, and from the scans I found, I think I will like the artwork.
It's called the Parrott tarot (went to see it because the name made me smile), and you can see pictures here:
http://www.aeclectic.net/parrott/index.html
Can't wait to get it in my sweaty little hands!
|
| Sulis |
16 Mar 2003 |
|
Hedera, the link on the Aeclectic site at the bottom of the card images worked when I just clicked on it. I`d say you`ve got yourself a bargain there the cards look lovely. I love self-published decks.
Love and light
Crystalmynx xx
|
| Hedera |
16 Mar 2003 |
|
Yes, it seems to work fine, now.... oh well.
I still saved myself about 8 euro's..... :)
|
| Icestorm |
17 Mar 2003 |
|
Thats a very cute and happy deck you got there, Hedera, almost unthothlike. I wonder if the minors are moody....
What do you think?
|
The Thoth-based? thread was originally posted on 10 Mar 2003 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.
|
