Boot Leg Tarot

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 23 Apr 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

moonman	23 Apr 2003
Shame on you! Hello Tarot - Joe Rosales on sale on for $15.00 ripped of from Sanrio Golden Tarot- Kat Black ripped of from A known Swiss Tarot Publisher and many others I'm not talking about deck like Star Wars, Peanuts, Lego , Disney Afternoon and others that do NOT charge. Do you know any other decks that should be here?

Rose	23 Apr 2003
Kat Black was the victim of copyright infringement by a German publisher. Her deck the Golden Tarot is due to be published by U.S.Games in the Fall. The first version of her deck's 22 Major Arcana was copied off her website and published without her permission. Rose

Khatruman	23 Apr 2003
Yes, moonman, please note what Rose has pointed out. There is actually a thread on that. Kat Black has been working very hard on her deck and does converse here. She also naively put her images of her work in progress on her website. They were ripped from her, published twice and some immoral company has been making money off of her work. It is sad to see that happen. Please be sure that you are aware of who ripped off whom before ranting.

felicityk	23 Apr 2003
And as for the Hello Kitty Tarot, if Sanrio doesn't care, why should anyone else? If it bothers you, don't buy it. Felicity

moonman	24 Apr 2003
[quote]Originally posted by Khatruman [b]Yes, moonman, please note what Rose has pointed out. ................. Please be sure that you are aware of who ripped off whom before ranting. Khatruman If your talking about the publishers here ie. The Swiss and German. Most people think that the Swiss on is German but it's in Swiss. It's not about ranting!! The fact is that Hello Tarot - Joe Rosales was NOT given permission to sell. Would you like to buy a deck that you thought was original then found out it was a copy???? I think most artists would be totally hacked off. Anyway it's up to the publishers and artists to do something about it. That's their job the fans of these deck just to mention it. What's the ponit of copyright. I whink most artists would care if their work is stolen. I think it may be a different matter for the big Co.s Did you know that if work has been stolen from you and you DON'T prosecute, you might end up losing ALL your own work FOREVER and that sucks big time.

baba-prague	24 Apr 2003
But prosecuting - especially in an international instance - takes time and money. Not everyone has that. We have had to decide - very sadly - that we are only putting small images of our deck up on the new website. We will show a very few cards in high-res, but we daren't show high-res with the majority of the deck because of all this bootlegging (as Kat found, even if the resolution is not in fact very high, it seems to be enough for rip-off merchants to take it and print out a fuzzy, dreadful reproduction - even worse for the reputation of a deck as buyers may think it's the real thing.) Personally, only showing low-res is bad for us and bad for anyone interested in our deck, because one of the whole points of what we've done is that there is a lot of detail (eg, our Nine of Wands has tiny golden bees buzzing around the main figure - they are from a Renaissance freize and it took a lot of time and care to add them to the picture and they are in fact exquisite - but you won't even know they are there, never mind see the detail, if you only see small images). We want to be able to show our work properly - and other people want to be able to see it. But we just can't. I think it's good for us all to shout loudly about this - it's a bad situation. Best wishes Karen

HudsonGray	24 Apr 2003
Moonman, the Sanrio Company knows about the Hello Kitty tarot. Japanese copyrights work differently--besides which, in Japan any fan work is never counted as interfering with the official publications a company puts out. It's called doujinski, and Sanrio doesn't care. ALL fan work is ignored. They're not like Disney or other American companies that get the lawyers on every little thing (that mural with Dumbo & Mickey Mouse at a day care center comes to mind). If it bothered them they'd send a cease & decist letter. Actually I'm surprised you didn't get all huffy about the Hello Kitty vibrator as being ethically wrong for young teens....

moonman	25 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by HudsonGray [b] Moonman, the Sanrio Company knows about the Hello Kitty tarot. Actually I'm surprised you didn't get all huffy about the Hello Kitty vibrator as being ethically wrong for young teens.... I know Sanrio knows about hello kitty. I know Joe started his deck as a so called fan deck. Why should I get "huffy" about a vibrator when this is about tarot deck? I guess you must of read most of my last posts about bisexuality, love online, sex magick..... and came up this this crass idea that I would get "huffy" about knob stick. How sad eh Anyway getting back on track OK the way I see it if people don't care if they buy a bootleg tarot deck or not this matter will NEVER be sorted out. As I mentioned before it's for the Co.s to do that. I'm sure that Retro Kat and others was pleased to know that people told her about what was going on. It's a shame that this thread has taken this turn of "who gives a toss" "If it bothers you, don't buy it"...... it might be too late for others if they have already bought this cute deck. Another thing that artists could do is to join a copyright agency to help them protect their work. Most of them won't take on the case but they will point you in the right direction Peace, love & light :*

Kiama	25 Apr 2003
I would never buy a bootlegged deck. My view on it is just the same as stealing a deck: The artist worked for years (Usually) On their deck, and spent time, money, energy, etc, in doing so. By buying bootlegs or stealing the deck they created, we are (IMO) effectively robbing them of the 'rewards' they deserve: The money they get if we buy their deck legitimately. Also, I would never be able to read with a bootlegged deck (If I knew it was bootlegged) cuz I would feel too guilty. (Some may be saying, silly Kiama, but that's just me. Mum drilled her morality into my head and it's still there!) So, no bootlegs for me. Kiama

felicityk	25 Apr 2003
I would certainly never buy a deck I considered to be a bootleg, e.g. a copy of Kat Black's Golden Tarot. But as Hudson Grey pointed out, Sanrio doesn't consider "fan art" a violation of their copyright, so I don't consider the Hello Kitty Tarot a "bootleg". If someone bought it under the mistaken impression it was an official Sanrio product, and was upset by the fact that it is not, s/he could return it or sell it. Felicity

baba-prague	25 Apr 2003
Hi Kiama, I agree with you. I would hate to read with a bootleg too, it would certainly trouble my conscience. Artists have a hard enough time making a living. Anyway, most bootlegs seem to be horrible quality because, when you think about it, anyone who will rip off an artist will probably be willing to rip off a customer with poor print and lousy card stock too. I don't think you're silly, I think you're right.

Page	25 Apr 2003
Noop I don't think your silly Kiama, your Mother done the right thing! I don't know about this one but I would not by a bootleg deck but if I had written permission form the Co. or artist and they said yes what makes that wrong? I would hate to know if anyone bootleg any of my work without asking first. I did have an idea for a tarot deck which did involve using images etc. from a artist I wrote a letter to ask them but they said no because of a few good reasons. I didn't feel bad but I felt that I did the right thing by asking first fan based or not nor would I pass of the work as mine. Would it be also bad of me to bootleg the Hello Kitty deck that is already out there.......... I would think so because that would be breaching copyright because of stealing the copy of an artist that's work has already been stolen. .................... http://weeklywire.com/ww/11-08-99/austin_xtra_feature.html From the aove website...... The Internet has been a good thing for Miss Kitty. At Usenet sites devoted to the fixation, people in the UK write fervently looking for someone in the States to send them Kitty merchandise. Rumor has it there are Hello Kitty Tarot cards -- and that someone else even started a Sanrio psychics hotline. Another victim of the mania, a friend of mine, proposed a nine-hour drive to the Oklahoma City Sanrio store and called to find out if I thought it was worth it. Hellooo? As if you have to ask ... ---------------- Sanrio psychics hotline, what next? I could do that as I do phone readings, but anyone take it for real? To be brutal I don't give a hoot about publishers and big Co's it's more for the solo artist. The publishers have all the money, it's also there job to taken on such cases and this is where contracts come in handy.

HudsonGray	25 Apr 2003
You know, I don't think the Hello Kitty qualifies as a bootleg 'deck' because it's not the deck that was copied, it was the Kitty character. The artwork for the deck was done by Mr. Rosales based on the Kitty images, so the deck didn't exist prior to his drawing it. If the original artist who made Kitty was offended by fan art, they'd do something about it, most definately, but the Japanese enjoy fan art & it's not considered competition no matter what images are being done--there's Manga characters who are done up as porn & they let that slide by too. That's just the way it works over there. Oh, my comment about the vibrator--that was the weirdest Hello Kitty thing I could find online, I just put that in because it seemed so strange (a kid's icon used for THAT???), not because of who or what Moon man is. I don't remember reading any of Moon man's postings prior to this thread so count me innocent as to what his beliefs are. The vibrator just seemed pretty wacky & out there given the kids level the character is aimed at. I know adults like Hello Kitty too, LOL. Do I condone people stealing other artist's work? No, especially when you're stealing from individuals, they need to make their living on their artwork. Do I condone things being done using a company's products (which is where Hello Kitty falls under, it's a company product like Pokeymon & U-Gi-Oh ...I probably misspelled that one)--in this case it didn't matter because of the cultural acceptance of 'fan art' and the Japanese attitude of acceptance even if the product is professionally produced & shipped worldwide. If it was over here in the US with a US based product, I still wouldn't worry because large companies have large groups of lawyers to do their bidding & protect their investment. I know of someone who made 3 Hobbs dolls (the tiger from Calvin & Hobbs) kept one & sold the other two....and got a cease & decist letter from the artist's lawyers in Missouri within 30 days of the sale. They were only made for fun, and there were only two actually sold, but the person complied with the letter and ripped up the pattern. Yet if it had been done as a parody of Hobbs, they would have been completely in the clear, as US law allows parodies of anything & don't find that they violate copyright (remember the Cabbage Patch Kids and all those trading cards with Garbage Pail Kids on them?). So I don't see Hello Kitty as a violation of Japanese copyright, when the company in question doesn't consider it an issue.

The Boot Leg Tarot thread was originally posted on 23 Apr 2003 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.