Marseilles tarot

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 30 Apr 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Belladonna	30 Apr 2003
Hi everybody! I would like to confess here that I am not very familiar with the Tarot de Marseilles as I was never particularly attracted to that deck. However, after reading some very interesting threads about it, I would really like to become more knowledgable about it. I was wondering if there are similar decks modelled after the Tarot de Marseilles? Are there many decks that would be considered of the french genre? Thanks! Love and light, Belladonna

jmd	30 Apr 2003
In a certain way, all Tarot decks are somewhat modelled after the Marseilles. It is one of Tarot's characteristics, hence the Marseille's importance. In another sense, only the Marseilles (and there are variations) are trully Marseille Tarot decks. Of the modern ones, the Grimaud (Marteau) dates from circa 1930, and both the Camoin and the Hadar from the latter part of the 1990s. There are also other 'Marseille' decks which either have other names (e.g., Angel Tarot).... in each case, however, what characterises these as 'Marseille' is particular detail to specific imagery. Like the Universal Waite or Robin Wood can quite accurately be described as variations on the RWCS, all the previous ones I mentioned are themselves variations on the Marseilles! I suspect it is quite frustrating to try to find a 'Marseilles' deck, not knowing whether there may be another deck which may be quite similar but which one thinks may better suit, or, alternatively, find a box labelled 'Marseille' and not know whether it would really be worth investing. In terms of the former, the variety of 'Marseilles' decks is not large. I would recommend the Conver (esp. the Héron publication), the Camoin, and the Hadar... the others, unless one really is after something either popular (Grimaud) or differently coloured (the Spanish Fournier) I would leave aside until later. If you're interested, I have also reviewed both the Camoin and the Hadar.

Mimers	30 Apr 2003
You know, I had read your post a little earlier, but did not respond, because I knew jmd would and that he would have the best advise for the deck with which to begin with. I would just like to add that in my short time learning Tarot (less than a year still) I have found that aquiering my Camoin Marseilles, one of my best moves. It is very enriching and actually while seeming so simple and crude at a glance, is actually beautiful and expressive when you really look at it. I highly reccomend it Belladonna. I do not think you will regret it. We are using the Grimaud deck in the PIPs thread. I can say the Camoin was very hard to come by. I made a trade for it here, but otherwise you would have to purchase it directly from the Camoin site. http://www.philippe-camoin.com/tarot_en/index.asp Let us know what you end up deciding! Mimers

Belladonna	30 Apr 2003
Thank you both so much for your excellent advice. Very, very helpful. I'm going to investigate all the decks you've mentioned carefully. How thrilling. I feel like I'm beginning a whole new adventure!

RiccardoLS	30 Apr 2003
I just drop in... IF with the Marseille deck, you really intend specifically the Marseille deck... follow JMD to the end. If with the name "Marseille" you mean the much broader range of decks created before 1900, in which the suit had pips, again follow JMD, but be sure he also mean "Marseille" decks in that broader (while inaccurate) sense. Riccardo

jmd	30 Apr 2003
...thanks Mimers and Riccardo... Ahhh! Riccardo, please give other advice than to merely follow me, for otherwise, the end will be too near, and the variety of Marseille style decks produced from LS will not even have been listed (at least mention that you too have a Conver and a Burdel available)!!! As to the reason why the term 'Marseille' is deemed inaccurate, I can only agree - for most are not from Marseille! Your suggestions I too would like to read!

Belladonna	30 Apr 2003
So let me get this straight. There is a broad range of decks that were created before 1900 and they are ALL referred to as being Marseilles decks although they may not actually be made in Marseilles? But they are modelled after the Tarot de Marseilles? There are also a few other more modern decks (convers, camoin, burdel) that are modelled after the Tarot de Marseilles and are actually made in Marseilles? Is this correct. Sorry to be so dense on this subject- it's actually quite embaressing.

jmd	01 May 2003
Those questions show the complexity of the situation. The Conver decks date from the 1760s from the Marseille region, and three publishers have ('photographically') reproduced them more recently, including Héron and Lo Scarabeo (neither of which are in Marseilles). The Burdel - not from Marseilles - dates from circa 1701, and again it has been reproduced (albeit with some minor modifications which I find highly regrettable) by Lo Scarabeo. Last century (ie, the 1900s) has also seen numerous Marseilles decks come to the light of day, the Camoin being a rare one to be based in Marseilles. Two other important ones are the Marteau/Grimaud (Marteau being of the Grimaud publishing family) and the Hadar (from Canada). I don't know if this aides or further confuses, but there are so many aspects which may be looked at in determining decks... my earlier recommendations I stick by, and wished that Lo Scarabeo would (re)produce the Burdel and others without altering the decks' images in any shape or form... for I do think that many amongst us would dearly like to recommend them.

RiccardoLS	01 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jmd (at least mention that you too have a Conver and a Burdel available)!!! Your suggestions I too would like to read! Ah ah :) No, I wouldn't dare give on suggestions. Expecially on such a subject I am obviosuly less than competent :) I was just worried that Belladonna may have been a "newbie" on the subject of historical/marseille type decks, and so I was trying to understand her questions better. But you will be a wonderful guide, much better than I can ever hope to be. And I'm very serious about this. :) Riccardo

Strange2	01 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Mimers I would just like to add that in my short time learning Tarot (less than a year still) I have found that aquiering my Camoin Marseilles, one of my best moves. It is very enriching and actually while seeming so simple and crude at a glance, is actually beautiful and expressive when you really look at it. I will echo Mimers comments, and also have found the Camoin Marseilles deck to be a fascinating and rewarding deck. I've been studying Tarot now for about 2 years, and did get the Camoin deck early on, but was a bit intimidated and befuddled by its apparent starkness and perplexing pips. So I started to use it on occassion as a comparative/supplementary deck, comparing cards from readings I did with other decks that I was more comfortable with (Thoth, Spirit, Eclectic). Recently, inspired in part by the wonderful discussions on Marseilles cards in the Historical forum here on Aeclectic, I took the leap of faith and have started to use the Camoin Marseilles deck as my primary reading/meditation deck. And lo and behold I think I am starting to "get it"! The patterns and subtle changes in the pips from card to card are fascinating. And I'm really enjoying looking at the tiny details in the cards that I had once thought were "crude" and unrefined. The physical quality of the deck is excellent: crisp colors, easy to handle and shuffle (no sticking), and I like the taller narrower size. One of my favorite features is the design on the back of the cards, which is a repeating intricate pattern of purple arrows and lines in a hypnotic grid. If you gaze into the patterns, you alternatively see circles, dashed lines, arrows, or square tiles, which could refer to cups, wands, swords, or pentacles?. See the attached scan. I'm looking forward to continuing to explore the unexpected depths of the seemingly simple Marseilles decks!

Belladonna	01 May 2003
Ah, thank you for your patience with my questions. That makes things a little clearer for me. I will search for a camoin, and then I'm sure I will have a whole new lot of questions!

The Marseilles tarot thread was originally posted on 30 Apr 2003 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.