Why are some tarot decks more "accurate", "brutally honest", etc.?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 02 Apr 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Rusty Neon	02 Apr 2003
One often hears that such-and-such a tarot deck is "accurate", or "pulls no punches", or is "brutally honest", in comparison with other tarot decks? In your view, how can this be? Why are tarot decks so different, when they all have essentially the same major arcana cards and the same sort of Rider-Waite- inherited illustrated minor arcana cards? How much of this feeling is really in the mind of the reader? Can a given reader be in such sync with a given deck that the cards that come up in a spread with that deck regularly give profound messages while a different deck doesn't?

Diana	02 Apr 2003
Rusty Neon: I do believe that some Tarot decks have been designed by some people who have little knowledge of the actual symbology, meaning and history of Tarot. Some of the creators have no knowledge about elemental dignities nor numerology. They just sort of see that Rider Waite put 10 Swords sticking out of someone's back, don't necessarily ask why, and design a card with 10 Swords sticking out of someone else's back with a different background, a unicorn or a fairy floating in the air for decoration. And they call that a Tarot deck. But have they questioned WHY this card was designed that way. Or do they just accept it because they were told it was so? "Why is the world round, Mummy?" "Because. Now eat your soup." Tarot is Tarot. It is not a farce. If someone understands Tarot, they can tear 78 pieces of paper, scribble down the titles, and the reading will be mind-blowing. The mind of the person who developed the deck is very important - they have imprinted their meanings onto the deck. If they have no real meaning, then the deck is pretty useless.

Maan	02 Apr 2003
I think its because the "language" ( symbolisme, colour etc) is closer to your own. Everybody develops a personal language due to there parents, inviroment, culture and personal growth. Some decks are made by people with similliar views and thats why those decks seem to be mre honest or brutal...because the symbols speak clearer to your own.

Kiama	02 Apr 2003
I agree with what has been said above, but also have a little to add... I think it also depends of the artwork of the deck, the standpoint it is coming from, who the deck is aimed at, and the symbolic system used in the cards. For instance, a deck created by a Left-hand path Thelemite is undoubtedly going to be more harsh and straight-forward with its message than a deck created by a fluffy-bunny New Ager. (No offense to fullfy-bunny New Agers... I tend that way myself sometimes!) Compare the Crowley Thoth deck (Created by a left-hand path Thelemite) with the newly released Tarot of Transformation (Created by fluffy-bunny New Agers). Which one do you think will give the most blunt message? Crowley's deck, because of teh standpoint Crowley is coming from. The Tarot of Transformation however has gone so far as to change the meanings of the negative cards in the deck, so that they are totally positive,, so with this deck, it is not surprising that it will be a gentler, more positive message. If the deck is aimed at Thelemites, it is going to be more blunt and frank than a deck aimed at children. Kiama

WolfSpirit	02 Apr 2003
I don't put brutal and honest necessarily together. I think some people can do accurate readings with decks that others consider "too cute". It just depends on what you read best with. Some decks call Death Rebirth - so more concentrating on the good that comes after the difficult. This is ok as long as you remember you still have to die first before you can be reborn. Because I like decks with animals and elements of nature I never have dark decks but decks like the shapeshifter that others may find fluffy, but I find it can work pretty well if you connect with that particular deck. I think the honesty is in the reader not in the deck.

Ravenswing	02 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana [ if someone understands tarot, they can tear 78 pieces of paper, scribble down the titles, and the reading will be mind-blowing. [/b] In a cafe, I saw a woman who took 22 packets of sweet n low, wrote numbers from 0 to 21 on them and spent the night doing readings. She wouldgrab them in her left hand and throw them high up into the air, sometimes even hitting the ceiling. She used the ones that landed on the table for the reading-- reading them where they landed. If they landed with the number down, she read it as reversed; but other than flipping those over, she never moved them. it was incredible. and accurate-- dead on. never saw her again, but it was something that you'd never forget fly well Raven

coldsuns	02 Apr 2003
Feeling. Maybe the designer or artist feels that The Fool should be a female with a cat. And those whom feel the same with her will buy the deck. Some felt that RW is not accurate because thats not the type that gives them feeling of accuracy. Halloween Tarot Deck, Whimsical Tarot Deck, Sailor Moon Tarot Deck, Tarot of Baseball and many other decks have a very "fake" feeling. But some readers feel them giving accurate readings so they used them. ~^_^'~

Astraea	02 Apr 2003
Ravenswing, I just love that story! I'm laughing at the unexpectedness and uniqueness of the scenario, but also marveling at the mysteries and wonders of divination, numbers and patterns. Thank you for relating that experience.

galadrial	02 Apr 2003
Just to illustrate Maan's insight with my own personal experience, I am definately more "in sync" with either of the Arthurian decks, because I've studied the Arthurian cycles in some depth, than I am with, say, my Halloween deck. While it gives accurate readings, it lacks the depth and subtlety of symbology (from my perspective) to give as crystal clear a reading, especially for a complex issue.

Richard	02 Apr 2003
I think it has to do with two things...first, the illustrations. It's quite a different experience to get the RWS 7 of Cups than it is to get the Thoth 7 of Cups...seeing those cups overflowing with green slime and the word "DEBAUCH" right there...that can be a little brutal. Also, I think some decks are a little wishy-washy in readings (my friend's Connolly deck is like that...it rarely gives a straight answer) whereas my Thoth and Vertigo decks will be very forceful in their communication. I dunno...that's what I mean be those phrases, at least.

Umbrae	02 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Ravenswing In a cafe, I saw a woman who took 22 packets of sweet n low, wrote numbers from 0 to 21 on them and spent the night doing readings…it was incredible. and accurate-- dead on. Somewhere around here is an essay on reading with toothpicks…elsewhere I have stated that it’s not the cards – it’s what occurs inside the skull and inside the heart when you look at the cards (or toothpicks). I find regular playing cards very brutal, and very honest…there are no pretty pictures to distract…just an open conduit to whatever I’m tapping into. Toothpicks, sugar-packets, playing cards, fuzzy bunny decks…each of them is what you make of them…and since we are all different… No, that shoe will never fit…

Celtic_Dragon	05 Apr 2003
I may not be saying anything new but... It's definately how people agree on an image or message, for example: I was thinking of taking an anime (like sailor moon) and turning it into a tarot deck. The anime is about a boy who when splashed with cold water turns into a girl. From that description you'd probably put that character in as the magician no? or perhaps the temprance...a perfect balance of both masculine and feminine right? But if you knew the meaning of his name in japanese, wild horse, then perhaps you'd put him in the chariot? Because he's cursed he has to continue to learn how to take control of the situation whether he's male or female.... Any one could fit but unless you watched the show you'd be clueless... Growing up without the knowledge of angles could definately cause a misunderstanding of the RWS deck. It's all in how you look at it. ^_^

Ruby7	05 Apr 2003
This is a very interesting question for me since the deck that is the most "accurate", and "brutally honest" one for me is one I was not originally drawn to, the Hanson Roberts. Maybe I am confusing "accuracy" with easiness, this is the easiest deck for me to read, but I also seem to go deeper with these cards, and see beyond the cards. I think that it is mostly about how an individual connects with a deck, whether it is to do with artwork, symbolism, history, previous knowledge, etc. That connection is what leads to everything else. I am really just agreeing with what others have said earlier in this thread.

azuremariposa	05 Apr 2003
i did a reading once w/a deck of playing cards shortly after i started reading tarot...i left the person in tears...i haven't read w/playing cards since...;) many blessings to all...

rota	06 Apr 2003
quote from Diana: "...some Tarot decks have been designed by some people who have little knowledge of the actual symbology, meaning and history of Tarot. Some of the creators have no knowledge about elemental dignities nor numerology. They just sort of see that Rider Waite put 10 Swords sticking out of someone's back, don't necessarily ask why, and design a card with 10 Swords sticking out of someone else's back with a different background, a unicorn or a fairy floating in the air for decoration. And they call that a Tarot deck." >>>>>> I have to agree with Diana on this question. In the general rush of enthusiasm over Tarot in the last 25 years or so, we've seen plenty of decks produced, and some of them are questionable in terms of their fidelity to the deepest meanings of Tarot. There's a similar thread on another forum (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12890). If we feel drawn to create a deck, we need to be honest with ourselves about whether we're creating a Tarot deck, or some other sort of oracular deck. I'm a deck 'creator' myself. I use the word in quotes because the decks I've done have been, conceptually, fairly literal to the Waite/Smith Tarot. In other words, I haven't tried to slant or change the card meanings of that particular Tarot strain -- I've only altered the art style. I'm not changing the meanings; I'm changing the presentation. I've spent years in learning all I can about Tarot, but I'm well aware I don't know everything. I still consider myself to be only wading in the shallow margins at the edge of the great ocean of meaning that is Tarot, and for that reason I'd think it presumptuous of me to begin changing imagery around willy-nilly just yet. If I wandered into the control room of a nuclear powerplant, it would be foolish of me to start changing dials and gauges because I wanted different patterns and colors. Likewise, we're asking for trouble if we go changing Tarot cards' meanings because of changing social fashions. A deck which relabels 'The Devil' as 'Materialism', or 'Death' as 'Transfiguration' or 'Rebirth' only cheats the reader of facets, nuances and aspects of the cards' meanings by limiting the possibilities. God knows I love the 'Hello Kitty Tarot', the 'Barbie Tarot', the 'Baseball Tarot', the 'Halloween Tarot' and loads of other theme decks. The 'Stick Figure Tarot' is just plain brilliant, in my opinion. The common thread, though, is that the meanings of the cards are not altered, even though the art styles are wildly different. I think a deck is "accurate" or "brutally honest" when the deepest meanings of the trumps and pips are allowed to speak most clearly.

Shadow Wolf	06 Apr 2003
mmmmmmm

Shadow Wolf	06 Apr 2003
sorry about that last post, my computer went a little screwy.... Anyway........................ The Ibis deck is my "burtally honest" deck. I use it when I really need to get to heart of a situation. Needless to say, I don't use this deck very often. I can only take "brutally honest" in small doses !!!!

Minos	06 Apr 2003
Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Quote: Originally posted by Kiama Compare the Crowley Thoth deck (Created by a left-hand path Thelemite) with the newly released Tarot of Transformation (Created by fluffy-bunny New Agers). Not to quibble, but Crowley firmly believed himself to be an adept of the Right-hand path, a foe of the Black Lodge, and a servant (or the chief!) of the Great White Brotherhood. Quote: Which one do you think will give the most blunt message? Crowley's deck, because of teh standpoint Crowley is coming from. If the deck is aimed at Thelemites, it is going to be more blunt and frank than a deck aimed at children. Yes, the Thoth deck does seem to be 'blunter' to many people. Many also consider it more abstract. I think the art tends to reach spiritual heights and depths seldom contemplated in other decks. Love is the Law, Love under Will.

Trogon	07 Apr 2003
As Shadow Wolf said... Hmmmmmmmmm..... When I got my second deck, the Röhrig Tarot, and I started getting some of these "brutally honest" readings, I thought "well, the Röhrig Tarot sure is one for deep, honest readings." Then I got a few such readings with the Spiral Tarot - "wow... another brutally honest Tarot..." Then I got the Goddess Tarot... and have had a couple of "those" readings with it as well. My conclusion... as we've seen so often with the Tarot - you generally get the reading you need with the deck you need to be using at the time. I do feel that different decks tend to bring you to some different viewpoints and interpretations of the cards... but you get the depth you need at the time. Along this same line... I've also gotten lighter readings with each of the decks I have. Sometimes you need to have old emotions and emotional wounds brought to the surface and examined so you can begin the healing process. Then again, sometimes all you need is a quick look at a given situation with some light advice to guide you along the way. It's been said many times in many threads (if I recall correctly :D ) ... you get the reading you need.

azuremariposa	07 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Trogon you get the reading you need. amen to that! ;)

RiccardoLS	07 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Some of the creators have no knowledge about elemental dignities nor numerology. So what? :) I actually disagree, loudly. Not that I excuse "decks" decks, but I vehemently disagree on the assumption that ED or Numerology or Cabbala or Astrology or whatever, as necessary to a "good" Tarot deck. If you use them, you must know them well, but there are so many roads in Tarot that considering the intellectual/esoteric approach as necessary seems to me exaggerated, at the least. Getting back to the thread I just suppose you can compare deck to people. Each with his own personality, flaws and virtues. The ED or numerology are like a big income and an important job. Sure index of success, but not necessarily of soul. Then there is the "charisma" of the person/deck... its "intelligenge"... the way he "dresses" and "speak".... his "religion", "language", "age". How do you choose your friends? Some are good to get drunk with, some are good to go to holiday togheter, some other are good to have beside you in difficult times, some other you must meet travelling and forget the day after... som you wish to marry for the whole of your life. No mater what intellectual knowledge and know how has been built into a deck, what makes a deck important is how deep he get. Sometimes the depth cames from the deck, while other times it cames from the person... anyway, I think the methaphore works most of the times. Riccardo

Diana	07 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by RiccardoLS I actually disagree, loudly. Not that I excuse "decks" decks, but I vehemently disagree on the assumption that ED or Numerology or Cabbala or Astrology or whatever, as necessary to a "good" Tarot deck. Riccardo: I'd like to hear what criteria you think are necessary to be used in order for a Tarot deck to be a Tarot deck, and not just 78 cards with pictures on them? When is a deck a Tarot deck for you?

Lee	07 May 2003
Well, if I can butt in here, I agree with Riccardo that a deck can be a Tarot deck without its creators having any knowledge of numerology or elemental dignities. I doubt very much, Diana, that Susan Hudes had any such knowledge when she created her Hudes Tarot, one of your favorite decks (I'm assuming this from things I read in the new Hudes Tarot book, in which the author speaks of Hudes as not seeming to have had much in mind in the way of specific esoteric systems). -- Lee

Diana	07 May 2003
Lee: Nice to hear from you. Okay. So let's say that knowledge of numerology and elemental dignities are not necessary. What do you think is necessary? An understanding of another deck? An understanding of so-called LWB meanings? Or............. ?

HOLMES	07 May 2003
as people today say systems can't be applied to the tarot such as qabbalah,cabalah, kabbalah, astrology, numerology, elements, what therefore defines the pure tarot ? 1. 22 major arcana, 16 court cards, 40 minor arcana, 2. when you look at the deck you know it from traditional tarot meanings. 3. the archtypes and unconscious symbols are there. yes the archtypes that have been with us since we had consciouss. we have had seen moons as a civilizations since we began to think. for a tarot to be pure tarot greatly depends on the viewer much like beuty. example would be some old marsielles lovers here :O) for myself it would be can be easily identified by the rider system of tarot no matter the picture. example i just got my nigel jackson tarot and for 7 of swords, it has seven swords above the fox, and we know that 7 of swords usally means sabotoge.. but here i got the impressions right away crazy like a fox, cunning as a fox and using those wiles, one could get away from the dog hunter, catch rabbits ands survive the winter. i never thought of 7 of swords in those terms to i saw the card tonight and said how cheap.. but now i think to myself not bad,, not bad. for myself the tarot has to be a reinterpation of the classic archtypes,

Diana	07 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by HOLMES 2. when you look at the deck you know it from traditional tarot meanings. Where do these traditional meanings come from, Holmes? Or rather, What is behind the traditional meanings? How accurate can a Tarot deck be if one doesn't go BEHIND the veil? That is why so many of the modern Tarot decks, and even more particularly, the clones are so weak and often quite nonsensical. They are like cheap counterfeits of a Rembrandt painting. To make a good Tarot deck, one needs to know what TAROT is. And that is what, I believe, some designers of Tarot do not even get near to. They have looked at a few Rider Waite decks, read a couple of books and LBWs and think they know about Tarot. How many have asked themselves: "WHY is there this guy on the Rider Waite two of Pentacles who is juggling something?" "WHY on the 5 of Cups, are there two cups standing and three cups lying". How many ask WHY?? "Mummy, why is the sky blue?" "Because it is. Now go off and play like a nice little girl." Stuff and nonsense. Of course, one can choose to dine at McDonalds if one wants to.......... One can even put candles on the table. You will not be physically hungry anymore, but.............

HOLMES	07 May 2003
they come from now where but were developed over time. that being said they come from our three levels of consciousness. tarot has developed, there wasnt' no "true tarot " that we can find is there :O( i;ll go with rachael pollack here form forest of souls only at the end will we know the true tarot. i don't think anyone knows what a tarot is, but just some pictures added on to some minors to make a game. (or so the popular history is today ) for all intents and purposes they do know about tarot for i have read a few books and some lbws, and i think i know about tarot, within my means, as a reader i guess i don't know nothing about tarot and my hermit card means nothing. i am sure most of them do ask why, , but i would not only ask why , but how , who , when and where, that hasnt' yet been determined. and so the answers lies not in the past for me personally but for how they all interelate all the tarot systems. the sky is blue because it is, there is a scienfitic reasons for it, but who made nature that makes the sky blue, we can't determine it yet just some great magificent source. so too is the tarot , we know what it is , as it pertains to our individiual view. and some day we will know not only why, when, where, who and when. suppose the old tarot makers don't know what they were doing in old europe just were copying the other guy and trying to make the best bestiful picture they could. they must of copied someone, but i think to myself they too didn't know what traditional tarot was,, for them it was brand new.

HOLMES	07 May 2003
giving some thought to why some tarot decks are more "accurate" i sincerly believe that some decks are more accurate then others for the reader can relate to it better. example my friend interpates a good toth deck like no tomorrow. i prefer comics decks so i can let my imagination flow. the toth has so much symobolism ,, the morgon greer not so much or does it ? it has the traditional white rose in the fool hand that symbolizes purifed desires in it.. the tarot deck honesty stems from the reader, it is like not all teachers can teach every student well , not every reader can read every tarot well, but the one he can, it is brutally honest and make more sense. we all have our favourite decks is one better then the other ? coming from a symbolims and in dept knowledge perhaps one is better ,, but some decks i cant' read others can tell me about an incident i had long forgotten, so it becomes a moot point once the reading begins, experience with a deck and the powers that be makes the deck honest.

Dark Inquisitor	07 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana How accurate can a Tarot deck be if one doesn't go BEHIND the veil? To make a good Tarot deck, one needs to know what TAROT is. Well, one would hope a deck creator would know something about what tarot is, although perhaps we all think we do & maybe we all don't really know for sure. Sometimes, as I am fond of saying, The Fool is the Tool of the Universe. And one might expect a person could stumble upon the archetypes of the unconscious quite unknowingly & be able to convey them powerfully without much introspection or study about it. Not every day, but possible. Could happen now, might have happened hundreds of years ago-can't tell. It would be hysterically funny to me if the whole tarot was channeled & had nothing to do with what we think it does or where we think it came from ! I think we can decide to work with a deck until we understand it well enough to read proficiently . Or we can give up & blame the deck & curse the fates & go out & buy more. Good for deck sales , anyway. Tarotphelia

RiccardoLS	07 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Riccardo: I'd like to hear what criteria you think are necessary to be used in order for a Tarot deck to be a Tarot deck, and not just 78 cards with pictures on them? When is a deck a Tarot deck for you? Dear Diana, I cannot even try to answer Your question. Would you be able to tell me "what is a dog?" Why a wolf is not a dog, while the German Shepard and the Chiwawa both are? I don't need to quote Kant to say that it's impossible to give an answer to your question. In mathematics to define something, you need to express a condition that is at the same time "necessary" and "enough". Necessary means that without that condition it would not be that something. Enough means that the condition alone is enough to make anything something. [arghhh, how is it difficult to talk this way in english :) i hope i explained] I think that both ED and Numerology are neither Necessary nor Enough conditions for Tarot. If, when you say that authors, in order to make decks, should know what Tarot are, you mean they should know what they are doing and not just mimicking it: I do agree. If you want to say more... and use your rage at many "crap" decks to narrow what Tarot are to one small shard of themselves: I do not. :) What is Tarot? I, frankly, don't know. And again, I do not care really to find out an answer. :( best, Riccardo

Diana	07 May 2003
Riccardo: Don't worry about your English. You express yourself very well indeed.

Lee	07 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana To make a good Tarot deck, one needs to know what TAROT is. And that is what, I believe, some designers of Tarot do not even get near to. They have looked at a few Rider Waite decks, read a couple of books and LBWs and think they know about Tarot. Good to hear from you too, Diana! :) I'm sure it's happened that decks have been published whose authors looked at a few R-W decks, read a couple of books and LWBs, and then designed the deck, but honestly, I don't think it's that many. I think most deck designers have worked with the Tarot for many years and have deeply ingrained ideas about what the individual cards mean. The problem is, when you say "To make a good Tarot deck, one needs to know what TAROT is," one person's TAROT may not be another person's TAROT. So, I may look at a deck, and that deck designer's ideas about Tarot may be different but just as strongly held as mine, but because I don't agree with those ideas, I can jump to the conclusion that the designer knew nothing about Tarot, but it ain't necessarily so. For example, some reviewers felt that the Robin Wood deck was just sort of mindless fluff. But when Robin Wood published her book, it became quite clear that she had very specific, very deeply-held beliefs and opinions about the cards, and she put a great deal of thought and life experience into each card. I'm not saying she was "right" and the reviewers were "wrong." I'm just saying that there may be more than meets the eye in a deck which at first looks ill-thought-out. Diana, I don't want to misrepresent anything you've said, but my impression from some past posts (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that you believe that each card has specific meanings which are objectively (rather than subjectively) true, and that other meanings which contradict these true meanings are false. If this is in fact what you believe, then there's no real point in discussing this, because for you, decks which don't illustrate your "true" meanings will always be worthless. Nevertheless, even assuming your meanings are the only true ones, even then, it seems to me it's still possible for an artist (like Hudes) to stumble intuitively on the "right" meanings without being aware of things like numerology or elemental dignities. By the way, I'll go out on a limb and guess that most deck designers are not familiar with elemental dignities, especially the MARSEILLES since elemental dignities hadn't been invented yet, so there! :D -- Lee

Diana	07 May 2003
Hi Lee! Actually, when I made my posts, I was really thinking of the title of this thread: "Why are some tarot decks more "accurate," "brutally honest", etc.?" You have made some very valid points. Thank you for sharing them with me in your usual honest way. I always appreciate the way you don't put on kid gloves for me when you answer my posts, and at the same time remain thoughtful and kind. So yes, I agree with you that some decks can be intuitively accurate and mind-blowing. And some are extremely original too. So could it then be that the unaccurate decks are the ones that have no grasp on the Essence of Tarot, whatever that may be? Whether it is through study or through intuition?

Lee	07 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana So could it then be that the unaccurate decks are the ones that have no grasp on the Essence of Tarot, whatever that may be? Whether it is through study or through intuition? Sure, I'll agree with that! :) -- Lee

HOLMES	07 May 2003
in reading robin wood book it is quite in depth and very informing, i don't wonder if initally as she copied the rsw pictures and changed them to suit her if she when she made them had a general idea of what she was doing, then when it came time to do her book she looked at it from a whole differnt area of knowledge, example her book didnt' come out for some years.. . it isn't to knock her but looking at my own hermit card, i had my idea of what i wanted to do and then only thing i consciously decdied to do was make the seeker pants red. when it came time to put in the symbolims of the deck for the aeclectic project 2, i had to really think of what i did and was actually surpised the spiritual symbols i found. hudes book in the review i read stated she sent articles to us games, and they like them and had her do a book. there may not be much symbology in there as the claims or the actuality goes (i don't have the deck )(yet) i bet the creator would add in some totally differnt symbology and come from an even deeper source. one thing bout symbology and honesty is in my beginner tarot by sharman , i was surpised they took out the tree of life from the ten of pentacles and found that to be blaspehmous for some reason. (the beginner tarot is a tarot done by the mythic tarot creator , it is redone rider imagery , or definatly a rider clone ) and i had to think long and hard as i liked all the images, so am i going to let a deck not work for me because they took out a symbol ?

full deck	08 May 2003
Speaking of such, I was perusing a deck: "i Tarocchi di Dante e dei Fedeli d'Amore" http://www.tarotgarden.com/boutique/images/dantecards.gif and noticed the "Chariot" card, which depicts a naked man and woman, the man flogging the woman's back (red stripes a plenty) and he is "doing the nasty" from behind at the same time. The woman is inside a low "chariot" of sorts while the man is standing outside, upon the ground. This card shows brutality and domination that is not so much of the driver of the chariot (Rider-Waite) controlling his own energies but rather focuses upon a kind of domination upon the external -- the man over the woman. The man appears to be dressed in religious garb as well. I wonder if anyone else is familiar with this deck and would care to comment upon this. I find it a bit controversial since it makes me wonder as to Poggi's original intereptation of this symbolism.

RiccardoLS	08 May 2003
(Ok, I've been rude. Sorry :( Really.) I would also like anyway to add another thing. Some decks that are not good may be just incomplete. They had an idea, they had knowledge, but just a small part of that art-knowledge-idea went through the final stage of the work. Like food without salt... :(

galadrial	08 May 2003
I own about 30 decks, and 2 of them I would consider to not be Tarot decks despite them being marketed as such (note: the Fey is not one of them:-) The reason is that many of the cards have been renamed, redrawn, and reimagined to the point that I can no longer connect them to even the broadest application of the "essence" or energy of any known tarot system's interpretation/rendering/usage of those cards. Sort of like a playwright writing a script based on "Little Red Riding Hood". He may change the time period, setting, accents, etc. and still leave the basic story intact. People will love it, "Little Red Riding Hood set in modern New York city is a witty, fresh interpretation for our modern times!", "Little Red Riding Hood the Rock Opera brings this story to a whole generation that would otherwise have ignored it."; or loathe it, "Much of the atmoshphere, historical relevance, and nuance of meaning in the original is lost in this reinterpretation. I pity the people who will come to know this story only through this work, and hope everyone who enjoyed the show will seek out the book." Still, the basic elements of the story are there and both sides refer to the play as either a good or poor rendering of "Little Red Riding Hood." But if the playwright decides that the wolf will meet a mage while going through the woods and be turned into a sheep and Everyone will live happily ever after, or the wolf will eat Red Riding Hood, grandma, and the huntsman and He will live happily ever after, then I think people will still love or loathe it, but that it no longer evokes the original enough to claim it's name. So, back to decks, that is where I am at with 2 of mine. They are apparent labors of love, but are not playing with the superficial trappings of the card essences (like the Halloween deck), or being extreme with them (like Margaret Petersen's) so much as (as far as I can tell, and that includes reading the fairly robust accompanying books) digressing from them altogether.

isthmus nekoi	08 May 2003
Wow, I'm glad you brought this up Diana. I'd never really thought about it. I remember thinking when I first got into tarot that I didn't want any deck w/major deviations (totally different names, different # of cards), b/c it felt less authentic for some reason, and I suppose from a pragmatic point of view, it just makes it easier to pick a waite clone to learn on. I think the comparison to fairy tales is apt. Like tarot, fairy tales are very depersonalized (unlike myth, where there is often focus on certain gods... sometimes fairy tale characters don't even have names). Their origins are often unknown, until you can start pinning them down in written form. This is a Jungian interpretation: over the years of oral tradition, these stories start to get to the real bones, the real structures behind the psyche. Other forms of narratives pretty them up, give em details, names, places etc. Fairy tales usually have very little in terms of personal psychological development (at least the older ones, current retellings by contemporary authors change this). The focus is on action, the right actions, honed down over years of oral tradition: When you reach the third teacher, you'll get your answer. Help out the wounded bird, even if it will slow you down. Be careful w/old women hanging out alone in the woods. Why? It's because this is the way the psyche is structured, it actually has *rules*. Not rules in the same way like we have laws and such, but there are *rules*. The images of tarot, I think may have some of the fluidity we can find in an oral tradition, getting honed down to the bare basics, touching upon the same rules. So back to the point, what is tarot? I'm thinking Tarot is a map that's been tried tested and true by many a person. If anyone wants to play cartographer, they should have made a number of excursions to the place they're mapping out, either via other maps, or their own means. If you have your own guides (and I do believe everyone does), you could make do w/a lousy map: one that points out things you don't need to know for instance (oh who knows, there might always be a time and place to map out say... where all the hot dog vendors usually set up shop or something like that. Might be cute if you like hotdogs.)... So, I don't think numerology etc is *essential* to a tarot deck, but if I pick a deck, I want to know that the maker knew where s/he was going when they went there, really got to know the locals and really tasted from the land, had the land itself imprint on their own body map... I don't want a deck from someone who stayed inside the all inclusive resort, took a bus tour a couple times and took pictures from behind the windows.

Cerulean	10 Jul 2003
I do have some commentary in answer to Full Deck and it is my opinion...it does kind of also align with my definition of certain tarot decks, as well. If I compared what I read of Poggi's tarot with Dante Algheri's allegories--including what you described and Mark Filpas' review, my opinion is there is a medieval flavor to Poggi's deck. It might highlight scenes or some sensational aspects that Dante might have given two lines or three lines of description instead of full cantos. The trouble is I've only read a little about the deck and the price is too prohibitive for me. I'd only put down ten dollars just to try it. So I cannot say anything more than it seems like a challenging deck. For me, to read with it could be an attempt to integrate the tarot designer's view of the Divine Comedy with my own, which would be wierdly painful. My idea would be, the Chariot card in the Trumps and the Divine Comedy would be perfect if the parallel was at the end of Purgatory. Then Beatrice is in a chariot pulled by a Griffin and preceded by Biblical figures and the Four Virtues. However, themetically, it comes in the middle of the Divine Comedy and can cause some major storytelling gaps if the 22 Trumps are supposed to be sequential representations of the Divine Comedy. A better choice than my opinion is how Giordano Berti and Andrea Serio did the Dante Tarot. They looked at the 22 trumps and 56 suited cards and used stories from Dante's works and life to create the Dante tarot. I believe the structure they chose parallels a Marseilles ordering and historical Italian divinatory meanings. And even the saddest scenes in the LS Dante Tarot reminded me at the end of each allegorical parable or canto, Dante pulled the reader either back to a note of hope or touched upon a lesson..I have to use both the keyword pamphlet and check through Giordano Berti's website to find the Dante correspondence. He lists each canto or Dante reference that he used for the 78 cards in the English language link to the Dante Tarot. Forgive the wordiness on the Divine Comedy. I've five versions because of summer evening sessions devoted to just walking through reviewing the earlier two books (Inferno and Purgatory) in comparison to Paradiso. http://www.giordanoberti.it/english/html/giochi_tarocchi_dante.htm

Brammetje	10 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Where do these traditional meanings come from, Holmes? Or rather, What is behind the traditional meanings? How accurate can a Tarot deck be if one doesn't go BEHIND the veil? That is why so many of the modern Tarot decks, and even more particularly, the clones are so weak and often quite nonsensical. They are like cheap counterfeits of a Rembrandt painting. To make a good Tarot deck, one needs to know what TAROT is. And that is what, I believe, some designers of Tarot do not even get near to. They have looked at a few Rider Waite decks, read a couple of books and LBWs and think they know about Tarot. How many have asked themselves: "WHY is there this guy on the Rider Waite two of Pentacles who is juggling something?" "WHY on the 5 of Cups, are there two cups standing and three cups lying". How many ask WHY?? "Mummy, why is the sky blue?" "Because it is. Now go off and play like a nice little girl." Stuff and nonsense. Of course, one can choose to dine at McDonalds if one wants to.......... One can even put candles on the table. You will not be physically hungry anymore, but............. I have to say I agree with the above; where the tarot has little to do with divination.... otherwise almost any tarot will do if one has the talent..... simply because I do not assume I can accomplish anything good without knowledge.....(because I simply have no acces to that source of information within myself) I like to be able to acces a good source of information that can help me understand this complex book of letters and numbers.... A source which I can turn to and ask why... and hopefully get an answer from..... When I have that answer I can decide for myself what impression it all gives me..... and with that... develop my own personal system..... Like learning how to build a house... I think you need good foundations. If I read a Tarot deck created by the someone that gives only expression to his or her 'own' idea's about the Tarot it is for me a too limited tool to learn from.... care for the decorations later.....first I need to know how to place brick on brick....and I would like to make the decorations myself in the end..... that is why I like very few tarot decks. Love, Bram S.

jog1118	10 Jul 2003
magic comes from the reader...not the cards :smoker:

Astra	11 Jul 2003
I'm beginning to think it's in the deck, at least partially. When I'd first put my site up, and asked a few friends to check out the site and the readings, one of them gave the URL to a group of people who all do readings more or less professionally. None of them gave me any feedback, but what I got from my friend was that they said the readings were very accurate but too "harsh" and didn't give them enough "warm fuzzies". Since I don't think much of warm fuzzy readings myself, I wasn't unhappy with this feedback, but it did give me a different perspective on these readers, most of whom I have met at one time or another. When I do a reading, I'm looking for answers/information, and the clearer the better. I hadn't realized that the deck would necessarily reflect that orientation, but evidently it does.

Brammetje	11 Jul 2003
Hi, thanks for your reply.. pleasse allow me to explain my above post a little furter. A few years ago the Tarot was a powerfull instrument in my life because it predicted very accurately..... (many times I did NOT understand or want to understand the true meaning or origin of the cards). But I wrote down, in detail....all the information that was given to me about me.....or others...... Because the Tarot worked so accurately for me I decided not to use it mainly as a divination tool. But because I LOVE the Tarot I started to ask myself: Why does this and that card have this or different or alike meanings? Of course a question that can be answered in many ways. A commen way of approaching this dilemma is: let your intuition / heart / soul speak through the cards. Because I already tried that and was not satisfied with the result (because for me the result was too much mingled with divination) I had to find another way. therefor: I did some research and found a few authors that were able help me a bit. I chose those authors as guides in my Tarot journey.... It is different for everyone. Today I use the tarot as a means for meditation and inspiration. ( ''i'' do not nessecarilly call this magick - but it probably is) there are few artists and arts in my life that can help me meditate without mingling their specific personal (bad or good) emotions and thoughts with mine. (it becomes too uncomfortable because it goes against my nature). so then I am looking for purity. Sorth of like watching a TV program that to my opinion has not a good quality. Yes it is a tv program and yes it can be watched... but it does not neccessarily inspire in a ''good'' way. yet The ones that did help me meditate (when it comes to Tarot) are usually the decks that are made by people who studied the tarot for years instead of those who work only on an inuitive basis....but both can be valuable ways I made this decision for myself what I want and what I do not want... Subject to change. For the time beeing I limit myself to the sources of information that prove to be good for me as a person. sorth of like choosing your friends wisely.... but I can be fooled.... and then this starts again in a different way and hopefully better place. greets, Bram S.

Sayonaran	14 Jul 2003
You can have some pretty simple art (stone medicine people) or just plain text (jennifer sands). It depends on the person doing the reading and how they interperet the meaning. It's not all about the deck, art, etc. I know the deck I owned at first came from a board game (ya, laugh if you want), but it was very accurate to all those who asked me. Even if they asked me 'stupid' questions, they became bothered when the answer they were looking for came up. So if you're pulled to a particular deck, then it's for you. If you were given a deck and it's pulling at you use it. Why use something that you're not in sync with?

The Why are some tarot decks more "accurate", "brutally honest", etc.? thread was originally posted on 02 Apr 2003 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.