Crowley Thoth; Opinions Sought!

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 15 May 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Centaur	15 May 2003
Hello, Just a question really. What's your opinion on the Crowley Thoth tarot deck? I am thinking of purchasing this deck but I am very unsure. HELP! C

HOLMES	15 May 2003
in my humble opnion the thoth tarot is full of symbolism and depths of understanding of the known universe that one could devote a lifetime to that tarot and only started to understand it then. such is true of any good tarot but here is exceptional as well for he not only studied with the golden dawn but also corrected what he saw as many of their mistakes or misconceptions so when you study the toth and begin to know it you will start to see it a differnt way then your traditional tarot. reccomend of course is to get the crowly book to the toth and for myself all of the books for the toth but other says why use second hand information when you could go to the source. *one of the book comes from a never studied the toth but here is what i see in the symbolism for the a fresh new face * for myself just be sure to get the one made in the white box (or the swiss tarot made by us games. ) that one is the more vibrant, and has a thicker card stock then the not so vibrant greeny us games one. here is the link that mentions book and the best colour toth http://www.tarotpassages.com/thoth.htm

Centaur	15 May 2003
Thanks Holmes, The link you provided was very informative. Although the lady writing recommends that one has a working knowledge of quabalah (spelling?! ;)) and astrology. Is this necessary? Which deck is the best coloured one? This 'greenish tinge' spoken about, sounds awful, and I don't want to be spending my money on something that looks like it has just been excavated from a swamp. Thanks again. C

firemaiden	15 May 2003
HI Centaur, the Thoth was my first deck, and although I have acquired something like 22 more decks, it remains my deck of reference. Frieda Harris's paintings are so deep and rich, I don't think I will ever get tired of delving into them. Very stimulating also, as well as entertaining, is the wild Mr. Crowley's Book of Thoth, which you can read on line. I think it is a must have deck. As for the greenish tinge, I don't know about what is available in England, but in Germany there are two different boxes, one is red, and one is dark blue, but the cards are the same inside, (AG Müller) and they look beautiful.

Emily	15 May 2003
I've been using the Thoth for about a month now, might be longer, and it is a very interesting deck. If you've seen the images online and you think its a deck you could use, then I'd say go for it. I don't know anything of kabbalah or of the deeper aspects of the Thoth deck but I am learning. The books are a good idea to get or you could miss some of the symbolism of the deck and the Banzhaf 'Keywords' and 'The Mirror of the Soul' give indepth interpretations of each card. You could read this deck with just the LWB but the books really make you look at the deck. My Thoth is the standard size one with the three Magus, I prefer to use the eight armed one instead of the Mercury magus that is in the decks with only one magus - ISBN 0-88079-308-2 I'd always used Rider Waite before but this is different, its very intense. Hope this helps :) Edited to say:- I also have the large green tinged Thoth and the colouring is terrible, I've never used it for reading with, the green colouring seems to drown the details on the cards, not a nice feeling deck at all.

Centaur	15 May 2003
Thanks Firemaiden and Emily, I must admit to being drawn to the deck. I find the images to be highly powerful. The only way I can describe it is as though I am actually submerged in the images when I look at them. Almost as though I am 'drowning' in them. My experience to date has been with Rider Waite based decks, but this deck jumps out and shouts 'BUY ME!' straight into my ear. Firemaiden, I know that there are three different sizes available in England; pocket-sized, medium, and large I think. But I am worried about this 'greenish tinge'. Eick! Probably a good idea would be to ask the sales assistant if I can have a look at the cards before purchasing. Oh, and where can I find the Crowley book on-line? I had no idea it was on the internet. C

firemaiden	15 May 2003
Hey Centaur: Here is the link to The Book of Thoth on-line. I consult this almost everyday. It is much nicer than the actual physical book, I think, because the cards are there in full color, and there are all those nifty links and stuff. :) Here are all the headings on the mainpage: WHEEL AND - WHOA! BIBLIOGRAPHICAL NOTE THEORY OF TAROT ATU (TRUMPS) COURT CARDS SMALL CARDS INVOCATION MNEMONICS DIVINATION TRUMP DIVINATORY MEANINGS It's really great, because each one of these headings is a link. For example: if you click on "Atu" then you will find a page with links to all of the trumps. Then, at the beginning of each trump page, there is an hot-linked outline of the discussion for that entire trump. For example: the Fool Card begins with this hotlinked outline: The Formula of Tetragrammaton The "Green Man" of the Spring Festival, "April Fool," The Holy Ghost The "Great Fool" of the Celts (Dalua) "The Rich Fisherman"; Percivale The Crocodile (Mako, Son of Set, or Sebek) Hoor-Pa-Kraat Zeus Arrhenotheleus Dionysus Zagreus; Bacchus Diphues Baphomet Summary i. Silence ii. De Sapientia et Stultitia; De Oraculo Summo; iii. De Herba Sanctissima Arabica;De Quibusdam Mysteriis, Quae Vidi; De Quodam Modo Meditationis; Sequitur De Hac Re; Conclusio De Hoc Modo Sanctitatis; De Via Sola Solis. ----------- Whoever published this on line did an extraordinary job, and I have been enjoying it for at least a year.

Emily	15 May 2003
Hi Centaur, I think this might be the link that Firemaiden could mean:- http://www.angelfire.com/celeb/Crowley/thoth/mainnav.html If you do your ordering from Amazon UK the deck they show for the standard Thoth with the 3 Magus, really nice colouring, is in a white box - this is a mistake on their part. The deck is in the lilac coloured box with the ISBN 0-88079-308-2. :)

Emily	15 May 2003
Hi Firemaiden, I must have posted just after you - I too wonder if its the whole book of Thoth. I'm still trying to wade through it lol :)

Centaur	15 May 2003
OMG Firemaiden! Thank you so much! ;) I am well impressed with that link! THANKS AGAIN! C

Centaur	15 May 2003
Thanks Emily! And thanks for that link! You and firemaiden got some kind of psychic connection going on LOLOLOL! Anyways, cheers for that! C

Sulis	16 May 2003
The others have said it all really but I`d just like to add my tuppence worth. If you`re drawn to this deck I say buy it, you certainly won`t be dissappointed. I bought this deck a couple of months ago, mainly because the decks I was buying seemed to be based on Thoth and I felt as if I should study the scource deck. I find I can relate to the meanings a lot better than the RWS meanings. I also find that the partially illustrated minors are far more intuitive than full pictoral minors, I see what I want to see in them and not what someone else wants me to see (if that makes sense). If you`re worried about the green tinge go for the US games deck in the lavender coloured box. This is the version with the 3 Magus cards, it`s a standard size so it`s very easy to work with and it was printed in Begium by AG Muller. Love and light Crystalmynx xx

Centaur	16 May 2003
Thanks Crystalmynx; I bought the Thoth today (YAY!). I got a box set by AG Muller, and I am very pleased with the deck!!!! I was quivering with excitement upon opening it, HEHEHEHEHE ;) Thanks again for all your help!!!!! C

lawguy51	16 May 2003
I've said it before in this forum and I'll say it again. Court cards. The Thoth deck has the best court cards of any deck I've seen or used. I was a bit of a deck junkie until I started using the Thoth deck. Now I can't seem to muster the interest to pick up my other decks. They just don't have the same 'weight'. I have both sizes. In North America you can get the larger greenish one or U.S. Games also imports the small more brightly coloured one. I use them both but you need big hands for the large one. Lawguy51 p.s. Firemaiden - great site. Hadn't been there before.

xouroboros	18 May 2003
All the posts have been positive about Crowley's deck and I will not detract from the fact that it is a strong and deeply imagined deck,but I will speak of a drawback. The Thoth deck was one of my first two decks,both given to me within 6 months of each other;the other being the Arthurian deck by Caitlin and John Matthews. I have since acquired a dozen decks or so,of which only one I have purchased. I used the Thoth for many years and delved deeply into the writings of Crowley,using his Book of Thoth and his Book of Magic as starting points. The deck is indeed powerful and rapt with imagery that speaks of his life in Ceremonial Magick,and to me,this is one of its drawbacks. If one is seeking within the realms of Ceremonial Magick,then the Thoth is probably one of the most useful and enlightening decks to use;but if one is not traversing a path of Ceremonial Magick,then much of the deep allusions within the imagery will be lost. The knowledge of the depths of the Qaballah and its accompanying numerology is needed as well as considerable knowledge of the correspondences as far as color,sound,etc. Crowley lived this life and the Thoth is intricately woven into his character and mind-set. His involvement in the O.T.O. and his knowledge of Egyptian religious myth is also woven into the Thoth. My main reason for drifting away from the Thoth,besides my being of Celtic descent and more in tune with the Arthurian Mythic Cycle,was the complexity of magical knowledge needed to truly and deeply understand the Thoth. If one is willing to tread this path,then the rewards would be substantial I suppose,but personally,as I am more inclined to use the Tarot as a "trigger" or "spring-board" for intuitive channeling,the time spent on immersing oneself into Crowley's Magical theory to truly see the Thoth as he wished it was not congruent with my direction. ...namaste; xouroboros

jmd	18 May 2003
Welcome to the boards, xouroboros - a wonderful post, much of which I tend to concur with. For those interested, other discussions on the deck (under 'Thoth') can be found in my Partial Table of Contents (which I haven't updated for over six months - eek!). The deck has its wonderful merits. One can also, certainly, enter its depths without necessarily undertaking ceremonial magic - Frieda Harris's art, in any case, utilises much projective geometry which may very well also be missed by the strick but narrow ceremonial magician (although this seems, to my way of thinking, an oxymoron when talking of the occidental magical tradition). I suppose any recommendations (or otherwise) need to be made in contexts - Centaur asked for opinions on this deck, and all the ones above need to be taken into consideration. My personal opinion is that this deck is one which any person serious about Tarot study will probably want to have at some stage - but that it remains, in my opinion, a late-ish and more personal interpretation of the Tarot impulse more properly purely expressed in its Marseilles form.

firemaiden	18 May 2003
How expressively and cogently you write, xouroboros. I must confess it was my curiosity about Ceremonial Magick that led me first to the Crowley and then, only then to the Tarot. I will never claim to deeply understand all of what is lurking in these sometimes dark and mysterious cards, but what gives me pleasure is their suggestion of lurking magic, the depths of which I will likely never sound.

divinerguy	18 May 2003
I'll be the first to admit that I have not studied Crowley in depth. From the little that I have read, he was an arrogant, mean, substance abusing, womanizer. His deck is dark and mysterious, and his writings are nearly incomprehensible. Was he a charlatan or was his insight for real? For me it doesn't really matter. His shortcomings as a human being, and the "boogeyman" feeling of his works simply turn me off. I believe we're placed on earth to make it a better place for ourselves and our brothers and sisters. In my opinion, Crowley accomplished neither.

RedWood	18 May 2003
I totally agree with divinerguy. I have had this deck. I got bad vibes from it. THen I was going to get it again but the deck kept elluding me. It is not a deck for me..ever... Course the first time I got the deck I was reading Rosemarys Baby and they mentioned crowley in it LOL..I don't think that helped.

truthsayer	18 May 2003
please don't allow your negative feelings about crowley detract from the work lady freida harris put into the thoth. i once felt the same way as you do about the thoth b/c of crowley until kind folks here explained the impact lady freida had on the deck. she has never been given enough credit for her work. i believe it took her 5 years to complete the deck and never received true financial compensation for what she did. i believe crowley received all monies made. of course, both were long dead before the deck became a true commerical success. i believe that her energy and enthusiasm for the deck helps negate the darkness of crowley. she studied sacred geometry in order to put it into the deck. this was not crowley's idea. lady freida wasn't into ceremonial magic. while i believe she listened to his ideas, her own came into play in the colors and designs used. the book of thoth is entirely his creation and contains his more negative energy. however, there is also evidence that so many people were angry with crowley that stories about his darkness may have been exaggerated as a method of revenge. i know he alienated a.e. waite and the golden dawn. they alone could have wrought a lot of damage on his reputation.

firemaiden	18 May 2003
I hear you divinerguy...AND.... Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy From the little that I have read, he was an arrogant, mean, substance abusing, womanizer. Sounds like he was a lot of fun at parties :D Quote: I have only read the Book of Thoth, but I found it clear and compelling. (Also very stimulating for the mind) Quote: What's the difference? }) Quote: Well, I think he had quite a sense of humour, that's a good thing for the world. :)

anjocoxo	18 May 2003
I just want to say that crowley's deck was the 2nd I bought, and I'm sorry for it. I don't give a damn about what aleister crowley did or did not with his life and those around him; I bought the deck because I found the major arcana to be astonishingly beautiful and just couldn't resist it (I still love them). However, I found it impossible to read the minor arcana. I find them ugly, especially comparing to the major.... so, I cannot read with them, period. I don't want to sell my deck because, as I said, the major are compelling (I'm thinking about doing paintings from them to my future house), but they are not enough to keep me happy. Anjo

Phoenix_Down	18 May 2003
not to bash the deck, but I dont think I could ever get over the feeling that I was looking at the Tarot through Aleister Crowley's eyes... I think, though that Harris may have overturned some of Crowleys decisions regarding the deck. According to a Time Life book I have, Crowley renamed Justice "woman satisfied" because of the sex symbols of the woman holding a sword (phallus) and scales (representative of testicles). @_o However looking at the deck on Tarot.com ( http://www.tarot.com/about-tarot/decks/browsedecks.php?newdeck=5 ) The card is called "adjustment" rather than "woman satisfied". *shrug* Maybe Time Life made it up. Though I cant help but feel the "Lust" card suggests bestiality. :(

xouroboros	18 May 2003
Thank you,jmd and firemaiden,for your compliments. My life with the Tarot has involved not only its utilization for others,but my own immersion in researching its many labyrinthine Mysteries. It is my habit not to take anything at its face value,but to continually ask "why". I am presently involved in redesigning its relationship to the Qaballah. I am of the opinion that the 21 Major Arcana are not to be placed on the paths between the Sephiroths,but to be paired on the Sephiroths. jmd; I'm pleased you mentioned Frieda Harris' contribution to the Thoth. It is also of my opinion that the Cards are as much hers as they are Crowley's. Also,could you elaborate (for my edification) on your statement concerning the Marseilles deck? firemaiden; For quite some time I immersed myself in the Path of Ceremonial Magicks until I realized that I was concentrating more on the mechanics of the Rituals than on the Spirit of my intentions. From there I began to question what my intentions were for persuing Magick of any form. I removed myself from Magick. This led me into Primal Archetypes and from there,deeper into the caves of the Tarot. I concluded that one must go beyond the mere images of the Tarot and into the "flow" of the images the Tarot invokes...more on the stream of the pure "nothingness" of channeling (for the want of a better term). It is my nature to delve into and deconstruct as thoroughly as possible any subject which I immerse myself into in order that I may uncover/discover its prime foundations and subtleties. Metaphorically,I attempt to embody the Tower Card in all I investigate,reducing it to singular "bricks" which I subsequently utilize (or not) to rebuild a structure more in accordance with its "true/authentic" nature,as much as possible bereft of any extraneous subversives. In part,this is why I would state that Crowley's deck is superb for one's immersion into Magicks,but (again,imho) less so for Readings;taking into account of course,each individuals unique attraction to the Thoth. ...and now on to more critical replies...

xouroboros	19 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy I'll be the first to admit that I have not studied Crowley in depth. From the little that I have read, he was an arrogant, mean, substance abusing, womanizer. This is only one side of a very deep and complex person whose single-mindedness explored regions and planes of the Etheric that others feared to walk or even denied their existence. Where others clothed themselves in robes of "righteous whiteness",Crowley fearlessly strode into the Darkest areas of the human Psyche and returned shaman-like with knowledge that altered Magick and the Occult forever. It requires an arrogant soul to reject the "rules" and explore the unknowns. Yes,he was partly a misogynist and was possibly addicted to drugs,though he saw the Feminine Principle as the repository of power and he utilized the drugs to alter his perceptions. Quote: His deck is dark and mysterious, and his writings are nearly incomprehensible. The Thoth is as it is because he did delve into what was "dark and mysterious" in order to retrieve the knowledge hidden there. One cannot walk into Hel and not be stained with Death and Decay. The myths of Inanna/Ishtar/Persephone tell us this. Knowledge,if not studied for its relevance,will always remain incomprehensible. One must live it to comprehend it,not merely taste it,read of it, or observe it. Quote: Was he a charlatan or was his insight for real? ...yes...and yes... The Magus must be part charlatan,part Trickster,part Sage,part Fool,amongst other qualities. Quote: For me it doesn't really matter. His shortcomings as a human being, and the "boogeyman" feeling of his works simply turn me off. One aspect of Crowley is for certain...one either "loves" him or "despises" him. It is difficult to remain neutral in the face of such a human being. Don't get me wrong,I do not praise the man,but I do respect him. His courage was matched only by his audacity and arrogance; his intelligence only by his self-centeredness. Quote: I believe we're placed on earth to make it a better place for ourselves and our brothers and sisters. In my opinion, Crowley accomplished neither. I beg to differ on two points. One,it is evident nowhere that we are "placed" here. Two,neither is it that we are to "make it a better place". These are only opinions,abstract conceptual suppositions formed in the face of the Silence of the Universe when queried of one's "reason for being" or Meaning of Life". Crowley may have desired power for himself,but in doing so,unlocked mysteries for all to see. This is an accomplishment,whether intentional or not on his part.

xouroboros	19 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Phoenix_Down not to bash the deck, but I dont think I could ever get over the feeling that I was looking at the Tarot through Aleister Crowley's eyes... ...and this is a "bad" thing? Quote: I think, though that Harris may have overturned some of Crowleys decisions regarding the deck. Crowley may have been a force to be reckoned with,but (imho) no-one could tell an artist how to paint what they paint or the intensity they embue their work with,for the artist would cease working. He was not hovering over her shoulder directing each stroke of her brush. Quote: According to a Time Life book I have, Crowley renamed Justice "woman satisfied" because of the sex symbols of the woman holding a sword (phallus) and scales (representative of testicles). @_o I have not come across said article,yet one must remember that Crowley immersed himself in the "sexual" because he realized that this is where access to the strongest intensity of Magickal power lay,in the union of the two principles of Yin and Yang which are expressed in the Human form through sexual union. Quote: However looking at the deck on Tarot.com ( http://www.tarot.com/about-tarot/decks/browsedecks.php?newdeck=5 ) The card is called "adjustment" rather than "woman satisfied". *shrug* Maybe Time Life made it up. Though I cant help but feel the "Lust" card suggests bestiality. :( Lust for Crowley was not "beastiality". Lust comes from the Scorpion (astrological) depths of our instinctual nature,unfettered and wild,subject to no rules or limitations. This is the "pure" definition of Lust. This was his means of traversing the "barriers" to the Psyche,to the "Underworld". His methods were those of Ishtar who,unlike Persephone who was dragged into Hel,boldly approached the Gates and demanded entrance forcibly. The reason he did this was to consciously rend assunder the binding "tabus" that prevented others from accessing the power/energies that lay dormant and unused deep within our Psyches and which "awaken" one to growth,expansion, and release. The force of the Tower Card brings one to the realease/rebirth of the "Judgement" Card,which I prefer to name "Awakening".

jmd	19 May 2003
Xouroboros, I totally agree with this statement of yours: 'I am of the opinion that the 21 Major Arcana [though i would have written '22'] are not to be placed on the paths between the Sephiroths, but to be paired on the Sephiroths' Whether you agree with the way I have done such or not, you may be interested in reading this precise way I also do it (outlined in the Qabalah Forums). Essentially, the pairings is of the I/XI; II/XII, &c form, with the ascent upon the Tree from Malkut to Keter (though there are other considerations I include - for III/XIII is placed in Netzah). I'll dig up a link later and add it here...

divinerguy	19 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by xouroboros I beg to differ on two points. One,it is evident nowhere that we are "placed" here. Two,neither is it that we are to "make it a better place". These are only opinions,abstract conceptual suppositions formed in the face of the Silence of the Universe when queried of one's "reason for being" or Meaning of Life". Crowley may have desired power for himself,but in doing so,unlocked mysteries for all to see. This is an accomplishment,whether intentional or not on his part. Okay, let's take them one at a time. Quote: One, it is evident nowhere that we are "placed" here. The fact that you adhere to a belief system, whether it is Tarot, Gnosticism or Keebler Elf-ism, implies an admission to some type of creation belief on your part. So, unless you are asserting a complete lack of belief in anything (which is a belief unto itself), you were placed here - unless of course you found a way to place yourself on the planet before you existed. If you wish to ignore the philosophical argument, there's always the biological. Each of our parents made a conscious decision to commingle their sexual gametes, resulting in our conception. Had they not partcipated in this volitional act, we would not be here. Their intentional actions placed us here. Quote: Two, neither is it that we are to "make it a better place". Your current existence on this planet again denies your conclusion. If there was no beneficial change, you would cease to exist as an organism. Your parents made it a better place by feeding you and providing you with an education. If you fail to make your own world better by consuming food and medicine, you will die. Both philsophically and biologically, you are under a unalterable duty to create beneficial change. Quote: These are only opinions,abstract conceptual suppositions formed in the face of the Silence of the Universe when queried of one's "reason for being" or Meaning of Life". These may indeed be my opinions, but they are certainly more well reasoned than Crowley's most fundamental theses, and they are far more respectful of the dignity of humanity. According to the self-aggrandizing Crowley, he was the only person in the world with the ability to interpret the Book of the Law. As the book was dictated to him by his wife, Rose, on a practical level, maybe he's right. In terms of unlocking mysteries, the only ones I see are, "Do what thou wilt," and he certainly did.

xouroboros	19 May 2003
...(heh,heh)...well...so much for careful editing I stand (actually I'm sitting) corrected...of course I meant 22,but I guess that's just a little Fruedian slip :D This is my preliminary pairing,Planetary,Sephiroth, and Chakra correlations: O-XXI - no Planet (Yin/Yang) - Kether - (no chakra)* I -XIX - Sun - Chockmah - Crown II - XVIII - Moon - Binah - " III - XVII - Venus - Geburah - Throat IV - XVI - Mars - Chesed - " V - XV - Mercury - Daath - 3rd Eye VI - XIV - Uranus - Tipareth - Heart VII - XIII - Saturn - Hod - Navel VIII - XX - Jupiter - Netzah - " IX - XII - Neptune - Yesod - Sacral X - XI - Pluto - Malkuth - Root/Base* *...these are the same,they connect,as this is actually a spiral,such as DNA;or perhaps more a "circle" like a Mobius Strip

Phoenix_Down	19 May 2003
Whether looking through Crowley's eyes is a good thing or a bad thing all depends on whether or not you feel that Crowley was wise... and personally from all the accounts I have heard and read, he was both a lech and a drug fiend, and I would find it hard to beleive he could be so enlightened- but thats my opinion.

xouroboros	19 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy Okay, let's take them one at a time. The fact that you adhere to a belief system, whether it is Tarot, Gnosticism or Keebler Elf-ism, implies an admission to some type of creation belief on your part. So, unless you are asserting a complete lack of belief in anything (which is a belief unto itself), you were placed here - unless of course you found a way to place yourself on the planet before you existed. The Tarot is not a "belief system",it is merely a tool that humans have created to link with that which is other than everyday consciousness. It is like a hammer,which is a tool with which to build with. I do not need to "believe"(which is taking a "leap of faith") in the hammer in order to utilize it;I merely have to pick it up and use it. I do not in any way believe in any sort of "creation";but then again,I don't deny its probability. Yes,I am asserting no belief in anything,yet I am also not denying the probability of creation's existence. Why? Because any belief system's validity cannot be proven one way or another as fact. It is the essence of the Buddhist "Middle Way"...not to believe and not to not believe. There cannot be a definite statement such as "placement",for it is not proven fact/truth that anyone or anything is "placed" here. This is an a priori assumption not founded on any factors save subjective(yours) conceptualizations,whether you thought them originally or accepted anothers concepts. Quote: If you wish to ignore the philosophical argument, there's always the biological. Each of our parents made a conscious decision to commingle their sexual gametes, resulting in our conception. Had they not partcipated in this volitional act, we would not be here. Their intentional actions placed us here. I would not ignore the philosophical arguement as long as it did not turn to prostelyzation. The sexual act may or may not be intentional or be intended to produce offspring (birth-control and its probability of failure) and it may or may not be consensual,such as in the case of rape. Sex is not always mutually volitional nor does it always produce the expected results. These again,are assumptions. Quote: Your current existence on this planet again denies your conclusion. My current existence,or yours,or any "things" current existence confirms nor denies anything,for to assume placement implies intention,reason. And therefore meaning. Whose intention? Whose reason? Whose meaning? Mine? If my birth environment were one of poverty,disease and squalor,what would be the "beneficial" intention for "placement" there? If you state that there is a Prime intention,you therefore imply a Primal Consciousness,i.e. "God";but this Prime Intention or Prime Intentioner cannot be proven to exist and therfore it becomes a moot question. My reply to your initial statement was not in rebuttal or to state a contrary p.o.v.,but to challenge the validity of stating this subjective conceptual assumption as fact. A Socratic dialectic,if you will. If one is "placed" here...prove it. Back it up with fact. Quote: If there was no beneficial change, you would cease to exist as an organism. Why are you assuming that anything's existence must be beneficial or detrimental? Is AIDS beneficial? Beneficial or detrimental for whom? Beneficial to the organism or "others"? Your original statement was to be "beneficial to others". If the environment one is "placed" into is harsh,would it not be more beneficial for one not to be "placed" there? And if one is,would it not be beneficial for the others already there for that one to immediately die in order that they may live better? Quote: Your parents made it a better place by feeding you and providing you with an education. Adolf Hitler's parents fed him and provided him with an education;would you therefore consider his contribution to the world "beneficial"? Or Ted Bundy? Or Charlie Manson? Or Christopher Columbus? Christopher Columbus was beneficial to the Europeans,but his actions eventually brought about the decimation of whole civilizations of Peoples. Quote: If you fail to make your own world better by consuming food and medicine, you will die. Both philsophically and biologically, you are under a unalterable duty to create beneficial change. No,I am under no "unalterable duty" to do anything. I may even choose suicide if I wish. I do not have to judge/perform my actions on arbitrary criteria of assumptions of "beneficial/detrimental" that are but mere philosophical abstractions. Quote: These may indeed be my opinions, but they are certainly more well reasoned than Crowley's most fundamental theses, and they are far more respectful of the dignity of humanity. If you.as you stated in the former post,did not study Crowley to any great detail;then how can you make statements on his reasoning or fundamental theses,of which one is that every person is a unique individual, or on his respect for the dignity of Humanity? He wanted to bring Humanity out of the bogs of rigid dogmas and tabus. Would not this be uplifting the dignity of Humanity? Quote: According to the self-aggrandizing Crowley, he was the only person in the world with the ability to interpret the Book of the Law. As the book was dictated to him by his wife, Rose, on a practical level, maybe he's right. First, it was his Book of Law,and secondly,it seems to me that this is the statement made by the clergy of every Western religion,from all the sects of Christianity to the mosques of Islam. Quote: In terms of unlocking mysteries, the only ones I see are, "Do what thou wilt," and he certainly did. ...then you have obviously not read much into his Magickal writings.

Phoenix_Down	19 May 2003
From Mysteries of the Unknown: Visions and Prophecies by Time-Life Books: P. 129 by far the most controversial member of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn was the irrepressible Aleister Crowley, a practitioner of demonology as well as various kinds of ritual magic. An imposing figure who was frequently photographed wearing exotic headdresses, Crowley was once dubbed by the English press as "the wickedest man in the world." He relished the title. Among many other curious beleifs, Crowley was convinced that he was the Reincarnation of Eliphas Levi. Crowley was born in 1875 to an extremely religious and strict family. As a child he rebelled against his parents' Christianity, eagerly accepting his distraught mother's accusation that he was the Great Beast, or 666, the Antichrist foretold in the book of Revelation. Aleister Crowley declared a personal war against Christianity, and he insisted that such had been his true mission throughout several reincarnations. In his early twenties, he claimed to have experienced the presence of a terrifying mystical power, and thereafter he devoted himself to the study of the occult. He traveled throughout the world seducing both men and women, occasionally persuading his lovers to play the role of his favorite character - the biblical Scarlet Woman, the so-called Mother of Harlots. In 1944, three years before his death, Crowley published a guide to his mystical theories of the Tarot in a small limited edition of a work called The Book of Thoth. In it, he emphasized the erotic imagery of the major arcana - not an entirely new interpretation, though no one before him had been quite so explicit. Other occultists had regarded the sword and scales held by the woman in the Justice card as male sex symbols, but Crowley, ever altert to erotic possibilities, renamed the card "Woman Satisfied". P. 144 Erotic and highly stylized, the Thoth deck was the brainchild of eccentric British Diabolist Aleister Crowley, another Golden Dawn initiate. He designed it, and Lady Frieda Harris painted it, between the years 1938 and 1943. The Thoth Tarot is replete with cabalistic and astrological symbolism, and Crowley exercised a free hand in renaming certain Trumps. With the Minor Arcana, he designated the court cards as Prince, Pricess, Queen, and Knight rather than the traditional King, Queen, Knight and Page. He also added names to the numbers of cards two through ten in each suit, and he used the term Disks for the suit shown here instead of the more common Pentacles or Coins. Crowley made no distinction as to whether cards fell upright or inverted; rather, he called them "well-dignified" or "ill-dignified" depending on neighboring cards.

xouroboros	19 May 2003
Thank you,Phoenix_Down for quoting the article. I will not deny many of Crowley's "short-comings" (pun intended...:D),but many great men were not the "saints" that they were made out to be. Read the biographies of Einstein and of Gandhi. I will also admit that Crowley was a little more than fond of theatrical display and of relishing the persona of the "Anti-Christ" and "The Beast",yet part of his purpose was to tear down the oppressive structures that bound Humankind to mediocrity. One should also not forget that he studied Tantric Yoga and had an insatiable thirst for knowledge. His detractors were vocal partly because of "professional jealousy" in that his Magickal knowledge far out-stripped theirs,which is why he left the Golden Dawn. Again I state that I am not defending him,but I do acknowledge his contributions and his superiority in the subjects he persued. The Thoth deck is a testament to this.

CompassRose	19 May 2003
Myself, I wouldn't say that Crowley's sketchy personal life invalidates the fact that he was an immensely learned and intuitive ceremonial magician. (Just as The Pianist remains a really good film whatever you may think of Roman Polanski.) Don't confuse the message with the messenger. Doesn't change the fact that I can't work with the Thoth at all. I tried, but my readings were dark, disorienting and unhelpful. My partner, though, uses it with great success. For what it's worth, I've noticed that most people I know IRL who really like the Thoth deck and work well with it are male.

xouroboros	19 May 2003
Well stated,CompassRose. You said in a few words what took me reams of pixals to say.:D I will concur that most of the Thoth readers are male. His "bent" on Tantric sex is definitely male-oriented. I drifted from using his deck once I began immersing myself deeply into Goddess Mythology. It was Crowley's focusing on the Feminine power (i.e....Whore of Babylon/Lust) that initially prompted me to investigate Tantric Dakini energy and from there into the vast oceans of Gaia and Goddess studies.

divinerguy	19 May 2003
Okay, we'll try this again. Quote: Originally posted by xouroboros The Tarot is not a "belief system",it is merely a tool that humans have created to link with that which is other than everyday consciousness. It is like a hammer,which is a tool with which to build with. I do not need to "believe"(which is taking a "leap of faith") in the hammer in order to utilize it;I merely have to pick it up and use it. Ask yourself, what is it that makes you "believe" that Tarot is a link to a different plane of consciousness, as opposed to ink on pieces of cardstock? It sounds an awful lot like faith. Quote: Because any belief system's validity cannot be proven one way or another as fact . It is the essence of the Buddhist "Middle Way"...not to believe and not to not believe. And your conclusion that Crowley "unlocked mysteries" - is it based upon something empirical, or is it that pesky faith thing again? Quote: There cannot be a definite statement such as "placement",for it is not proven fact/truth that anyone or anything is "placed" here. This is an a priori assumption not founded on any factors save subjective (yours) conceptualizations,whether you thought them originally or accepted anothers concepts. Unless Watson and Crick were wrong about that whole DNA thing, I think I can prove my placement on this planet. Quote: I would not ignore the philosophical arguement as long as it did not turn to prostelyzation. Its not nice to start name calling. Quote: The sexual act may or may not be intentional or be intended to produce offspring (birth-control and its probability of failure) and it may or may not be consensual,such as in the case of rape. Sex is not always mutually volitional nor does it always produce the expected results. You mistake intent for volition. We know the consequences of our reproductive acts, whether or not we intend or consent to them. Quote: My current existence,or yours,or any "things" current existence confirms nor denies anything ,for to assume placement implies intention,reason. And therefore meaning. When a parent raises a child, we hope that our progeny do well, that they thrive, and grow to raise their own families. Yes, there is a meaning to life. Its not a chance, random event. When our son was conceived, we knew what we were doing. We placed him on this planet. Had we used birth control, he would not exist. To conclude that our lives have no meaning, is to deny humanity a soul. I can't bring myself to be that detached. Quote: If my birth environment were one of poverty,disease and squalor,what would be the "beneficial" intention for "placement" there? For those who live in such places, the comfort and love of another human being is a profound benefit. I, personally, would prefer life in the most fetid of swamps to death or non-existence. Quote: If you state that there is a Prime intention,you therefore imply a Primal Consciousness,i.e. "God";but this Prime Intention or Prime Intentioner cannot be proven to exist and therfore it becomes a moot question. We've come a long way from opinions on Crowley, but sure, okay. Your presence on this entire board, as well as your study of Thoth, is evidence of something. We don't have to call it "belief," we'll call it "conclusions." Your conclusions are based on certain underlying premises - those premises are assumed to be true. Prove your conclusion that Crowley "unlocked mysteries," without creating an underlying faith-based assumption, and I'll buy you a nice Cuban cigar. But, you can't - nobody can, because Crowley and his wife are the creators of Thelemic study. Quote: Why are you assuming that anything's existence must be beneficial or detrimental? Is AIDS beneficial? To the AIDS virus, and those who earn a living from its treatment, I imagine it is. Quote: Beneficial to the organism or "others"? Your original statement was to be "beneficial to others". If the environment one is "placed" into is harsh,would it not be more beneficial for one not to be "placed" there? And if one is,would it not be beneficial for the others already there for that one to immediately die in order that they may live better? This is entirely dependent how you define the word, "benefit." I would offer that no life is more or less valuable than another, and thus, we benefit incrementally by each person in our community. Quote: Adolf Hitler's parents fed him and provided him with an education;would you therefore consider his contribution to the world "beneficial"? Or Ted Bundy? Or Charlie Manson? Or Christopher Columbus? Every cloud has a silver lining, and each person contributes to society in some way. Just because we cannot see it, it doesn't mean that Ted Bundy or Charlie Manson don't yet have a role to play. Quote: No, I am under no "unalterable duty" to do anything. I may even choose suicide if I wish. I do not have to judge/perform my actions on arbitrary criteria of assumptions of "beneficial/detrimental" that are but mere philosophical abstractions. What makes you think you haven't already done so? I suspect that those around you received a benefit long beofre you were aware of your existence. I loved my son before he took his first breath. Quote: If you.as you stated in the former post,did not study Crowley to any great detail;then how can you make statements on his reasoning or fundamental theses,of which one is that every person is a unique individual, or on his respect for the dignity of Humanity? I need only burn my hand once to know the stove is hot. I relied on the writings of his victims to form my conclusions. Quote: He wanted to bring Humanity out of the bogs of rigid dogmas and tabus. Would not this be uplifting the dignity of Humanity? How do YOU know this? Taking it on faith, maybe? Darn, there's that belief thing again. It just keeps popping up on us. Quote: ...then you have obviously not read much into his Magickal writings. I have heard he is well respected in this regard, and in that area, I have no opinion.

HOLMES	19 May 2003
the toth tarot itself is a good deck for learning symbolism, and about other "mysteries". as for the validity of crowley own works i would say that he worked with what he had at the time, the same could be said for freud (who did use coke ) yet he contributed much to the field of psycology even though they say on fraise the tv show that much of his theories were disproven. just as freud contributions to the field of psychology can't be forgotten so to is it with crowley, and his contributions to the toth deck and all its tarologies involved. my one concern was that crowley has so much egyptian symbolism in the thoth tarot yet i understand now that it was believed that the tarot came from egypt so it is an interesting doorway to the past. as for most of the toth users being male or female , one would have to set up a poll for that in a differnt thread to prove it.

xouroboros	19 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy Okay, we'll try this again. Ask yourself, what is it that makes you "believe" that Tarot is a link to a different plane of consciousness, as opposed to ink on pieces of cardstock? It sounds an awful lot like faith. Ah...caught me! Well...my statements are based on actual experience of the Tarot. I know that the "impressions/intuitions" that flow through my mind's eye are not mere imaginings of my brain. I have had too many experiences,such as telling a young woman that she was pregnant just after she had come from her doctor who told her the same,to deny that they are a "vehicle/tool" or a "bridge" one may utilize to communicate with another. This "linking" happens not on the manifest physical plane,but somewhere other than it,of which I am not inclined to speculate. Though they are merely "ink and cardstock",it is the matrix produced by this combination of ink,cardstock,and relevant images that imbues them with the qualities of being this specific vehicle;just as the specific combination of wood,steel,and shape create the hammer,a vehicle/tool with qualities of being a vehicle of building...specifically hammering. Quote: And your conclusion that Crowley "unlocked mysteries" - is it based upon something empirical, or is it that pesky faith thing again? Some knowledge he communicated was unknown before he strode past the limits of the Golden Dawn and others. His correspondeces listed in the appendixes of the Book of Thoth are quite extensive and well grounded. Quote: Unless Watson and Crick were wrong about that whole DNA thing, I think I can prove my placement on this planet. This,I will admit,I am not familiar with. Quote: Its not nice to start name calling. ...oops ...sorry ...done in the passion of the moment ...many apologies if I offended Quote: You mistake intent for volition. We know the consequences of our reproductive acts, whether or not we intend or consent to them. Not so. It is the consequences that are at question from one's intentions. One may intend to produce off-spring,but that may never happen,no matter how often attempted. (...though it is fun trying :D) As for non-consent,the volition of the one not consenting is being thwarted and as such,intention. Because one is forced to act contrary to one's intentions and volition,the consequences are not freely chosen. Without freedom of intent and volition,one cannot be held responsible for the consequences. Crowley said: Do what thou wilt under the Law and the Law is Love. Quote: When a parent raises a child, we hope that our progeny do well, that they thrive, and grow to raise their own families. I cannot disagree with this. Quote: Yes, there is a meaning to life. ...but I can with this. What is it? Quote: Its not a chance, random event. Actually,I would say that it is,for it is by sheer chance that one or two of those thousands of little guys makes it to the egg. Quote: When our son was conceived, we knew what we were doing. We placed him on this planet. Had we used birth control, he would not exist. Could you not have actually just chosen to have been merely vehicles for a consciousness to choose you? Quote: To conclude that our lives have no meaning, is to deny humanity a soul. I cannot see how that follows. Why must Life have a Meaning? Is not that one is meaning in itself. I am because I am. For no other reason than to be. One is one's own reason for existing. Existence is it's own reason for existing. Quote: I can't bring myself to be that detached. It is attachment which the Buddha said kept one on the Wheel of LIfe/Death. True Freedom is the freedom to be with no strings attached,no a priori reasons or meanings,merely beingness. Not to solve anything. Not to learn anything. Not to repent or payback karma. But to merely "be". Learning springs naturally from Being,as fragrance from a flower and wetness from water. Experience grows naturally from Being. One does not have to strive after it. It is always there,all around one. The experience of being-ness. Quote: For those who live in such places, the comfort and love of another human being is a profound benefit. This is true even in the palaces of the rich. No disagreement from me here. Quote: I, personally, would prefer life in the most fetid of swamps to death or non-existence. So would I,but I think my volition would take over and I'd move into a condo.:D Quote: We've come a long way from opinions on Crowley, but sure, okay. ...which is why they call these "threads" ...they just get tangled sometimes:) Quote: Your presence on this entire board, as well as your study of Thoth, is evidence of something. We don't have to call it "belief," we'll call it "conclusions." Your conclusions are based on certain underlying premises - those premises are assumed to be true. YES!! ...conclusions ...good word! ...but my assumptions are founded on my experience of Being,of existing,not arbitrarilly accepted without experience (...not saying yours are) Quote: Prove your conclusion that Crowley "unlocked mysteries," without creating an underlying faith-based assumption, and I'll buy you a nice Cuban cigar. But, you can't - nobody can, because Crowley and his wife are the creators of Thelemic study. I make my conclusions by comparing what was there before Crowley to what Crowley brought forth... in light of my own beingness...my own Life-experience. And if at a later time,my conclusions are proven to be in error,I have no reservations on altering those conclusions. (...hmmmm...Cuban cigar...could you make it a cup o' coffee instead? :D) Quote: To the AIDS virus, and those who earn a living from its treatment, I imagine it is. This is entirely dependent how you define the word, "benefit." ...and this would be purely subjective. Quote: I would offer that no life is more or less valuable than another, and thus, we benefit incrementally by each person in our community. ...agreed Quote: Every cloud has a silver lining, and each person contributes to society in some way. Just because we cannot see it, it doesn't mean that Ted Bundy or Charlie Manson don't yet have a role to play. True...for one to truly know Love,one must have experienced hate. To truly acknowledge cool clear water,one must experience thirst. Quote: What makes you think you haven't already done so? I suspect that those around you received a benefit long before you were aware of your existence. ...couldn't say...I wasn't there:) Quote: I loved my son before he took his first breath. He's a very lucky boy. (...here I do speak from experience) Quote: I need only burn my hand once to know the stove is hot. (...usually takes me 2 or 3 times before it sinks in :D) Quote: I relied on the writings of his victims to form my conclusions. I will not argue that he did damage some of those who trusted him,some severely. Yet,how many died at the swords of the rising Moslems in Mohammed's drive to unite the 12 tribes and establish Islam? How many Original Peoples suffered and died in the push to create the great nation of the United States? Quote: How do YOU know this? ...as I described above Quote: Taking it on faith, maybe? Darn, there's that belief thing again. It just keeps popping up on us. ...like weeds in a garden. ...namaste; xouroboros

firemaiden	19 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy This is entirely dependent how you define the word, "benefit." I would offer that no life is more or less valuable than another, and thus, we benefit incrementally by each person in our community. Every cloud has a silver lining, and each person contributes to society in some way. Just because we cannot see it, it doesn't mean that Ted Bundy or Charlie Manson don't yet have a role to play. Haha!! Divinerguy, have you painted yourself into a corner? Add Crowley to this list, and I think you have effectively contradicted your original position: Quote: I believe we're placed on earth to make it a better place for ourselves and our brothers and sisters. In my opinion, Crowley accomplished neither. :D

divinerguy	19 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Haha!! Divinerguy, have you painted yourself into a corner? Add Crowley to this list, and I think you have effectively contradicted your original position: :D Mea culpa, I stand skewered by my own sword. I die the horrible death of flawed logic. I agree with you, Aleister Crowley is noteworthy as a good example of a womanizing, substance abusing, narcissist. I stand corrected.

truthsayer	19 May 2003
did you guys stay up all night debating this? when i put the decks forum to bed last night, things looked relatively quiet. now i learn you guys have bee slinging thoth cards at each other from 20 paces. let uncle aleister rest in peace! who knows what the truth is anyhow?

divinerguy	19 May 2003
Truthsayer, we've been having fun. xouroboros is one of the better debaters around. Good thing he/she isn't a trial lawyer opposite me in court. The debate has allowed both of us to see and appreciate alternate points of view.

truthsayer	19 May 2003
LOL glad to hear you guys have been having fun. i couldn't tell and i was starting to get that "feeling" we moderators get when we start feeling like we might need to intervene. stuff like this is why we moderators turn grey before our time... }) ;) however, since you 2 are enjoying yourselves, does anyone need a second in this duel? i cringe at the thought of meeting either one of you in the courtroom! }) just think old uncle al on trial. hey! that rhymes! LOL :)

xouroboros	19 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy Truthsayer, we've been having fun. ...and ain't that a big part o' Life Quote: xouroboros is one of the better debaters around. Good thing he/she isn't a trial lawyer opposite me in court. ...and I would return the compliment three-fold Quote: The debate has allowed both of us to see and appreciate alternate points of view. I do not come here,or anywhere for that matter, to impose my p.o.v. on anyone;I arrive in the spirit of Socratic dialectic and in order to experience,learn and grow. I would rather hear another's views on Life than expound on my own,for this is how one expands one's beingness. One can't hear the AUM if one doesn't listen. ...namaste; xouroboros

Macavity	19 May 2003
I once spent (almost) an evening wading though the correspondence between Lady H & A.C. See: http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/ I think it provides some insights into BOTH parties. Give him h*ll, Freida! (Was what I thought, anyway...) :D

MystiqueMoonlight	19 May 2003
The majority of articles written on Alesiter Crowley some of you have quoted have been by peoples who never met the man or were not existant in his time. Aleister Crowley did fall out with the original members of the Golden Dawn, that's true, however they all fell out with each other hence the reason it fell apart in the first place. The Golden Dawn which exists today was resurrected by Isreal Regardie, a student and assistant of Aleister Crowley. Yes the Thoth Tarot does have some Egyptian influence, not because of the so called connection to Egypt (which is very debatable), but because Crowley formed the Thelemic Golden Dawn which was influenced by his sighting the Stele of Revealing and subsequently "receiving" Liber Al vel Legass sub figura CCXX which was narrated to him during meditation. He received no income from the Thoth deck. None at all. It was not published until after his death. The paintings were not sold by him so he received no financial gain. The only person who did actually write anything about Crowley who had actually spent anytime with him was Regardie. It wasn't until much later in Regardie's life and the apparent success of the New Golden Dawn (with it's largely Jewish influence) did Regardie have anything negative to say. This wass in complete contrast to his earlier works. Crowley was a man. A man who believed very strongly in his convictions and belief system. In a conservative time when one did not outwardly express such points of view (and a lot of it was negative towards the current state of society of that time which would have rubbed people the wrong way) he made a lot of "society" enemies. Oscar Wilde was one of these types as well.

AmounrA	19 May 2003
Perhaps it would be good to hear Regardies thoughts on this whole matter. I quote from Regardies “The Eye in the Triangle, an interpretation of Aleister Crowley”, pg 506 (new falcon publications 6th Ed ). “Time and space were never limitations for his dedication of his love; their restricting bonds had been dissolved by Eternity and Infinity. And to these he was the confirmed, committed and consecrated devotee. He may have slipped at times, being a rebel, and by his egotism he may have been driven in strange neurotic ways. But his love and dedication were never eclipsed. There are not many, I am certain, who could have been as patient, as enduring, as determined as he was in all the multifarious practices and exercises that he used as stepping stones to the great goal-Self-realization. This alone stamps him of a different breed from most of us, and demonstrates the clarity and purity of his Devotion to the light. This was no metaphysical preacher who pretentiously let it be known that sugar would not melt in his mouth, or that he was too pure for words. Nor was he a fanciful master of the Far East, who purported to fast a great deal of the time but who otherwise lived on fruit and cereals, maintaining a stolid pseudo-silence, only broken by pointing to the letters on an alphabet-board. His motto was “Be strong! Then canst thou bear the joy!” He pretended to be nothing more than a man. But what a man! “ _______________________ _______________________ After a run of buying esoteric books , I decided I would buy a book on something altogether different. Another passion of mine is mountains, so I bought a book called “ K.2 the story of the Savage Mountain” (coronet books) by a mountaineer called Jim Curran. Later at home I began to read… I got to chapter 4 and was stunned, a whole chapter on Aleister Crowley! The old swine had always referred to Chogo Ri, a mountain I had never heard of, Chogo Ri was K2 ! The second highest mountain on Earth, and he as his small team where the first to try and climb it ! The old master had winked again;-

paradoxx	20 May 2003
Wow, what a thread. We have touched upon so many facets of this man and they are reflected within the Thoth Tarot that he and Lady Harris created perhaps without the total knowledge of what they themselves were accomplishing. It would sound as if the combination of those two would be so unlikely that anything that would become produced has not resemblence to either of them in the end. It is in my human opinion that Crowley was investigating the synchronisities that existed in his life. His interpretations were not conventional, and he was damn proud of it. While Crowley probably wan' the man to model yourself after, he was the one if you wanted to see for an honest and probably disturbing opinion. I often have wondered who he really was and how he woudl resond to the things that i have responded too in my lifetime. Would he laugh? In response to the bads vibes of the Thoth tarot While i am not too sure what that era was like, the RW Tarot was incorperating the same core information being instructed by the 1st person to the artist (whether it be Harris or Smith) and a finalized collaboration between the two in terms off minor details. Personally i find more disturbing intuitions within the artwork in the RW than the Thoth, which is more intigrated with the shades of colors.

jmd	20 May 2003
...couldn't help but resurrect Sanctum Sanctorum as a result!

firemaiden	20 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Macavity I once spent (almost) an evening wading though the correspondence between Lady H & A.C. See: http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/ I think it provides some insights into BOTH parties. Give him h*ll, Freida! (Was what I thought, anyway...) :D Hey! Macavity! Thanks for that link. Wow, everything is there, all his books on line! Now we are going to have some serious fun. I am especially intrigued by "The Gospel According to George Bernard Shaw".

Macavity	20 May 2003
I think one of the notables is the complete PDF "Liber 777" - the one with every imaginable card correspondence. "Which card represents pink blancmange" etc :D M.

Emily	20 May 2003
I've been following this thread with great interest, mainly because in the few weeks I've had it the Thoth has turned into my personal reading and study deck, not had much success reading for others with it yet but getting there lol. I'd always though of the deck as having a very masculine feel too but since using it like I have I think many of the Majors are very feminine. I've also got to echo FireMaiden and thank Macavity for posting that link, I can feel alot of reading coming on :)

xouroboros	20 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Macavity I once spent (almost) an evening wading though the correspondence between Lady H & A.C. See: http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/ I think it provides some insights into BOTH parties. Give him h*ll, Freida! (Was what I thought, anyway...) :D ...*oh god*... ...like I don't have enough to read already,you dangle this ripe apple in front of my nose... ...oh,well ...*sigh*

Centaur	20 May 2003
*smiles sheepishly* i just love the deck! ;) C

firemaiden	20 May 2003
Well then, while seeking out the proper correspondance for pink blancmange, I came SHABANG across this quote from 777. As an American, I ought to take offense, but I find it punishingly amusing. Perhaps Crowley was the original Henry Higgins! Quote: "The cause of human sectarianism is not lack of sympathy in thought, but in speech: and this it is our not unambitious design to remedy. Every new sect aggravates the situation. Especially the Americans, grossly and crapulously ignorant as they are of the rudiments of human language, seize like mongrel curs upon the putrid bones of their decaying monkey-jabber, and gnaw and tear them with fiece growls and howls." One senses he did not like American accents much :-) I wonder how he felt about Australian ones. :D

Macavity	20 May 2003
Yeah, I (conveniently) forgot about THAT bit! :laugh: Perhaps Australians wouldn't (as the UK Castlemaine beer commercials assert) "give a XXXX" (sic) anyway? I like to think so... :D Macavity

The Crowley Thoth; Opinions Sought! thread was originally posted on 15 May 2003 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.