Deck types
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 27 May 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| rowan |
27 May 2003 |
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Greetings:
I realize this is probably a stupid question, however, you can also look at that the only stupid questions are the ones you didn't ask. Anyways...
In regards to types of tarot cards, I am quite curious to what the differences are between, say, the RWS, and Thoth types. I know it has something to do with the integration of the qabala and Golden Dawn in the Thoth decks, but I was looking for a little more clarification.
If this has already been discussed in the past, then I missed it in my search and I do aplogize in advance. (I was also going to ask about the ATA/ITS/etc, but previous posts told me what I needed to know).
Thanks,
Rowan
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| CompassRose |
27 May 2003 |
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Regardless of where the thread winds up, I hope someone Wise in the Ways of Tarot answers... :D I'm very curious about this myself.
(I'm also wondering what other Thoth- or Crowley-influenced decks are out there, besides the Rohrig. I'm -er- not a big fan of collage-type artwork, and the Thoth itself doesn't much get along with me. However, Crowley's system of correspondences is so EXTREMELY thorough, that I'm sure at some point I'll need to at least take a serious look at it, even if I never jump the fence altogether.)
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| jmd |
27 May 2003 |
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I agree with rowan that no genuine question can ever be stupid - and at times those which have the appearance of the simplest (and this one doesn't) have the most intricate answers.
In terms of the major difference between the second and peripheral question of the ATA and ITS, the former also has links to 'accreditation' - which I personally think takes away from the integrity of Tarot - whereas the ITS is, again in my opinion, far more wholesome, catering for Tarot enthusiasts. Both are located in the USA, though each also have members in other areas of the world.
With regards to the differences between the Waite/Colman-Smith (Rider, or RWCS) deck and the Crowley/Harris ('Thoth') deck, though each is influenced somewhat by the Golden Dawn (and its correlations with the letters of the Hebrew alphabet, made earlier, in a different way, by E. Levi), they are quite different.
The RWCS deck inverses the more traditional order of Justice and Strength - though Waite is aware of variations which occured in even earlier decks. In addition, Pamela Coleman Smith (who illustrated the deck) gives scenic depictions on all the pips, many influenced by the Sola Busca deck.
In contra-distinction, Crowley apparently sought to re-constitute a more original medieval representation, thought the work of Frieda Harris, with the influence of Olive Whicher, included much work arising out of projective geometry. The deck also maintains the earlier ordering, with Justice at eight and Strength at eleven (though renamed).
The astrological and Hebrew letter correlations are also mildly modified from the Golden Dawn allocations implicit in the RWCS. In the latter deck, Crowley also 'swaps' the Emperor and the Star, though retains, as for Justice and Strength, their traditional numbering.
The pips, unlike the RWCS deck, are not scenes, though intensely ornate.
As there is so much more which could be said of each, may I also suggest having a look in the Study section, in which both decks are also discussed.
I trust this helps :)
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| divinerguy |
28 May 2003 |
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Maybe Mari Hoshizaki will chime in - she's pretty good at this stuff.
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| Kiama |
28 May 2003 |
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To add to what JMD so wonderfully said...
The Crowley Thoth is instilled with Thelemic significance, since this is where Crowley was coming from. So, we find cards such as Lust being represented by Babalon, or cards like the Lovers showing the Heiros Gamos. There are many Thelemic concepts within the cards, esp. the Majors, which are useful to understand if you really want to get into the cards, but not necessary if you are just using the deck for reading.
The Rider Waite on the other hand seems to come from a more Christian-mystic point of view, hence the quite Christian imagery f cards such as Judgement and the Lovers, aswell as blatant references to the Book of Revelations in a few cards, such as the Empress. Again, it is useful to know what these references are, but not essential.
Most people I think find that learning with the Rider Waite is easier, because it is coming from a background that is familiar to them, whilst the Crowley Thoth is coming from quite an unfamiliar background.
Hope this helps!
Kiama
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| Trogon |
28 May 2003 |
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Originally posted by Kiama
To add to what JMD so wonderfully said...
The Crowley Thoth is instilled with Thelemic significance, since this is where Crowley was coming from.
[snip]
aswell as blatant references to the Book of Revelations in a few cards, such as the Empress. Hi Kiama,
You've stumped me on a couple of things here... "Thelemic" is a new term to me, could you explain the reference perhaps? Also, can you expand on the references to Revelations in the Empress card... I haven't picked up on those. Thanks...
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| callahwj |
28 May 2003 |
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Originally posted by Trogon
Hi Kiama,
You've stumped me on a couple of things here... "Thelemic" is a new term to me, could you explain the reference perhaps? Also, can you expand on the references to Revelations in the Empress card... I haven't picked up on those. Thanks...
Thelema is the greek word for will, I believe, and is the name for Crowley's religion/system of magic. He drew on Egyptian Mythology, Qabalah, and gnostic ideas to create a system of magic and spiritual thought. Those ideas were incorporated into the Thoth deck.
-Bill
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| Cerulean |
28 May 2003 |
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In terms of time periods and art influences--more than you want to know:
PC. Smith
By the 1910 period, Pamela Colman Smith and the circle of people who contributed to the forming of the Golden Dawn had the designs of the Rider (publisher)-Waite (Arthur Waite, writer)-Smith (Pamela Colman, artist) in publishing circulation. The art designs of Pamela Colman Smith seem to include design not only of Waite's descriptions, but Smith's art style. She seems to have illustrated in for Arthurian-style dramatic settings, fairy lore/stories similar to her beloved Ellen Terry stage settings. Ellen Terry was like a grandmother/mother to her and took her on acting tours when P.C. Smith was a teenager, before she trained in art. P. C. Smith's illustrations have influences related Yeat's Irish ideals and Pre-Raphaelite designs. Pamela Colman Smith was an artist by trade and not very savvy about marketing outside her circle---the RWS designs were 'a lot of work for very little money.' She lived with her father and then afterwards, shared a cottage with a small annuity and an elderly companion. The property was inherited after an uncle died. Even though she had some drawing sent to Alfred Stieglietz' 911 New York art gallery, during her visit, she was too uneasy to stay in New York and not a good marketer. She returned to her cottage and tried to paint, interact with the local church.
She was said to be fanciful, sensitive, but not really interested in the most sophisticated degrees of Golden Dawn mysterious practises.
I've notes of the later art-deco inspired Thoth deck painted by Lady Frieda Harris, some of the designs also being done during a London Blitz...World War II? I'll post later.
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| Rose |
28 May 2003 |
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Originally posted by Trogon
can you expand on the references to Revelations in the Empress card... I haven't picked up on those. Thanks...
The image of the crown of 12 stars and possibly the waterfall and river on the Waite-Smith Empress card can be traced to the book of Revelation in the bible.
Crown of 12 Stars-Comes from Revelations 12:1 - "A great portent appeared in Heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the Moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pangs."
Waterfall and River-The woman crowned with 12 stars gives birth to a son, and the Serpent tries to destroy them both. Revelation 12:15, "Then from his mouth the serpent poured water like a river after the woman, to sweep her away with the flood. But the earth came to the help of the woman; it opened its mouth and swallowed the river."
Rose
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| Two of Wands |
28 May 2003 |
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Hi Mari_Hoshizaki,
I thought that post was fascinating! Pamela Colemen Smith is certainly an interesting person to find out about! Thanks for sharing!
A.
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| Kiama |
29 May 2003 |
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Trogan,
callahwj and Rose have answered your question perfectly! :D
Kiama
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| Trogon |
29 May 2003 |
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Originally posted by Kiama
Trogan,
callahwj and Rose have answered your question perfectly! :D
Kiama Yes Kiama they did! Thank you both for the answers and insights. Mari, great essay on Pamela Coleman Smith.... thanks.
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The Deck types thread was originally posted on 27 May 2003 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.
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