Why do good Tarot decks fail to make it to print?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 06 May 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

divinerguy	06 May 2003
The demise of well done decks, such as the Kalevala Tarot, while inferior decks remain on the market is a constant source of irritation to me. I cannot understand why editors allow decks to go to print which have glaring errors in the LWBs, second rate artwork, or artwork which doesn't match up with the correspondences. We have all marvelled at the quality of some of the self-published decks out there, and longed for their publication and widespread distribution. We ask ourselves, "Why isn't this deck in print?" When I see some of the latest offerings, I want to grab these editors by their lapels and scream, "What were you thinking?" ARRRGGGHH!

Dark Inquisitor	06 May 2003
I suspect they are just responding to popular taste. They are not in business to lose money. The real culprit is all around you- your fellow man, so to speak ! The problem is that new innovative things can have a hard time getting to market & so people will never be exposed to anything else & develop their tastes in different directions. You just may be ahead of your time divinerguy ! Project into the future, & what you like may be popular by then. And the decks you bought now may be more valuable when the popular taste catches up. Until then, celebrate your originality. Tarotphelia

divinerguy	06 May 2003
Tarotphelia, I want to be angry, and there you go again, being nice and everything. Maybe the dinosaur is the one I see in the mirror, eh?

Khatruman	06 May 2003
Go ahead, Divinerguy...Be Angry!!!. It certainly is frustrating when popular taste goes against what you know to be the best. Most of the time, the music that I love is impossible to get, or downright expensive, because it isn't in the popular range of tastes. Ahh, well.... we do what we can, eh?

Astraea	06 May 2003
High-calibre, unusual decks seem to represent something of a "niche market" these days, and the same might be said for virtually all types of creative output; my husband remarked recently that in today's world, marketing is the product. :( That said, I know that it is an expensive process to publish decks and books, taking them from acquisition to shelf, and companies do extensive research to discover what, where, and to whom their productions will sell -- sadly, some really wonderful decks drop by the wayside as a result.

Dark Inquisitor	06 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy Maybe the dinosaur is the one I see in the mirror, eh? Oh I'm sure there's no dinosaurs in the mirror at your house ! I am just old & jaded - for many years I had to watch my own work cut up & redone , forced into a mass market profile . Often by people who had no idea what they were doing & had no experience in the area. Psychologically , it's kind of like having surgery every day with no anesthetic. So you become detached & resigned & then you die. (!) Tarotphelia

HudsonGray	06 May 2003
It's probably best, then, to support artist done decks & to promote those (as well as buy a copy), not only to make others aware of how good those are to work with, but to also reward the artist for doing the deck in the first place. Publishers have to cater to the mass markets to make their cut, but that doesn't mean those are the ONLY choices out there.

Violet Gargoyle	06 May 2003
whee hoo, whee hoo whee hoo whee hoo Anyway- my point is to get those good rare decks where ever you can, they will be more meaningful to you in the end. I mean, if you have a deck you absolutely love and you know that only 10 other people have the same one, does that not make it more yours- or meant for you? Nothing wrong with the mass produced bits, but it does sometimes boil down to individual taste, going with the crowd to have something to talk about and debate on, vs having something that is your taste alone. As far as those decks that go unpublished at all, I think that the burden goes much on the people creating the decks: Most of the time they have to prove that enough people want the deck to pay for the costs, that the art work is not under someone elses copyright, and that the product (because that is what it is) is marketable with other products sold by the company.

RiccardoLS	07 May 2003
I would like to just point on the question: "what could we do about it?" Slowly, but tirelessy... try to educate people. Not to impose our own tastes, but to help them create theirs. I know that LS every now and then invests in low-gain great decks, just because they are worth it. But as long as "market" decks sells more and more and "good" decks sells less and less... how many really good decks can we expect to see published? Some they will be, for sure. But never enough. And many decks that could have been exceptional will simply came out nice. This kind of "waste" is sometimes what really makes me sad :( Riccardo

baba-prague	07 May 2003
I think we've already had a thread a bit like this one, but I'm glad these questions have surfaced again. Last time, someone said that any deck that has fans is good - and that it's wrong to say one is better than another. Well, I have to come out and say that I don't agree with that - there are differences and some decks, let's face it, are cynical tat even if they do have fans. It's like eating low-quality fast food - many people might like it some of the time, but it doesn't mean you can claim that it's "good" for you. So I think Riccardo's distinction between "good" and "market" is valid (fortunately it doesn't mean that no good decks are market successes, or that no market successes are good decks). It is a matter of education - I'm sure many people find their taste and understanding of decks develops over time as they learn and experience more. I know mine has. So I don't think we can entirely blame the publishers - it is a business and they have to take business decisions. We need to look a bit more at why people aren't very discriminating about decks, and see if we can't improve the situation. Anyway, it's great to see Riccardo here and always arguing for better decks - a publisher with their heart in the right place :-) Karen

RiccardoLS	07 May 2003
I am not a Publisher. I work for a Publisher (big difference :) The only thing I may say is that Publishers (at least LS) are painfully aware of the difference in quality among decks. But...

baba-prague	07 May 2003
Whoops sorry - but even if you are "a person who works for a publisher" it's still really good to see you here and putting the case for better decks. So. Do you think it's possible to have a deck that is good AND a best seller? I guess the Fey is selling well? But are you really saying that your other "good" decks don't sell? Please reassure me that some of them do :-) Best wishes, Karen

RiccardoLS	07 May 2003
The Fey is selling good-average. Nothing special :) For my LS experience, the deck I consider "best" do not sell above the Fey level. On the other side the best sellers are decks with something to say (even if I may not like it, or I may know their weakness). The best sellers are: Fairy Tarot Tarot Art Nouveau Celtic Tarot Egyptian Tarot Each of them (imho) has a at least a little "something". But I think that the Art was the cause for the success of the first two, while the title for the second two :) R.

C.N.	08 May 2003
Divinerguy, I'm intrested in hearing which decks you think should go out of print. As far as I know, the only universally loathed deck is Tarot of the Witches, aka the Bond deck.

divinerguy	08 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by C.N. Divinerguy, I'm intrested in hearing which decks you think should go out of print. As far as I know, the only universally loathed deck is Tarot of the Witches, aka the Bond deck. I wouldn't presume such a thing, because my tastes are my own. However, deck reviewers here on Aeclectic and on places such as Tarot Passages, describe decks and sets, whose correspondences are a direct rip from RWS or other systems, whose cards don't reflect the theme of the deck, or whose artwork lacks depth or skill. From Tarot Passages (not my own opinion), here are a few examples: Native American Tarot - Groups all tribes under one umbrella, inappropriately uses Pipes as a suit, uses a sacred white bufalo as the Devil card, Kachinas are neither clowns, nor are they female. Lord of the Rings Tarot - Art inconsistent, pictures too small, selection of characters because the pictures match - not because of correspondences (and this is from a Tolkien fan). Tries to be both a game and a Tarot deck. One World Tarot - A new symbol system, but no book to describe it. Numbingly similar, computer generated artwork, which lack symbols by which to differentiate the cards. Vampire Tarot - Ridiculous and silly. Great of you're into Goth, but little to hold anyone's attention. Ubiquitous blood everywhere, and once again, images which strain to match the card name, but fail in the correspondence department. In all candor, having read the reviews and seeing a few images, I can't disagree.

Kiama	08 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy One World Tarot - A new symbol system, but no book to describe it. Numbingly similar, computer generated artwork, which lack symbols by which to differentiate the cards. I reviewed this deck for Tarot Passages (My reviews are the one under the name 'Kim Huggens' - My real name! :D And I can safely say that this deck is one of the decks I wish had never been published. I don't often say this about a Tarot deck, since for me, if it's a Tarot deck, it's gotta be good... BUT... The One World Tarot really pushed me to the limit, and it is one of the only decks in my collection which I have simply to show peopel the type of deck NOT to buy! It is one of those decks which I just can't work out why US Games published it... *Sigh* Ah well... Kiama

full deck	10 May 2003
The Rider-Waite, published by US Games is candidate for dismissal. The rendering of the artwork is atrocious and EACH card has "US Games" on the side. Try contemplating upon a company name sometimes . . . it just sucks. Frankly, some of the revised versions of this deck are much nicer than this exception that is published by US Games.

jmd	11 May 2003
RiccardoLS mentions above the need to 'try to educate people. Not to impose our own tastes, but to help them create theirs'. How wonderfully stated! Part of the education is also through sites such as this one which Solandia has created, and to which we each contribute. This sharing, disagreeing, seeing things from another's perspective, and being able to get feedback on various renditions - as well as being able to actually see some of the decks is all so wonderfully educative. Still, another aspect is also at work: salespeople in some shops who recommend a deck simply because it sells best. The reason it sells best is because, of course, it sells best - and it has sold best because it is recommended, because it sells best (but maybe I should stop here, I'm beginning to sound repeated!). baba-prague also says that she doesn't agree with the view that no deck is better than another. On this, I have to totally agree with her - even if it causes some fiery tension within the hearts of some. How can, however, we slowly ensure that the stores which provide the decks are themselves providing informed guidance? Should everyone purchase through the wonderful advice and knowledge a store such as Tarot Garden can provide (I know that I only finally obtained my copy of Tarot de la Félicité being assured it was worth it by Jeannette). Likewise book publishers - do they in many ways 'demand' or encourage further duplication of the RWCS for illustrative purposes, irrespective of the preference of the author, because it suits the marketing of more 'general' books on Tarot in English? It was Astraea who remarked on a remark of her husband's who remarked that 'in today's world, marketing is the product'. How sad indeed! So, the 'education' has to occur on so many levels: Deck publishers need to be honest and tell us just that the deck is; Book publishers maybe need to allow a little more varieties to arise; Resellers need to be a little more educated on the products they are selling (imagine going to a chemist and being told that one product is best because it sells more!) We need to continue to encourage conferences and meets, these Forum discussions, and independent and smaller various publishers (such as baba-prague's studio, Lo Scarabeo and Héron ) As to the publication of the publishers on each card, I must admit that I too find it quite a nuisance. Surely copyright laws are already in existence - there appears no obvious need to despoil each card thusly. But to the centrality of the thread - there are so many wonderful decks out there, and so little time...

AmounrA	11 May 2003
I believe that people are responsible for the choices they make. -No one forces an artist to a publisher, no one forces them to agree to terms and conditions. -No one forces people to buy a deck. In my heart I do think decks with copy write on each card are polluted.... so I don't buy them. I do think there is a lot of poor decks out there, so I don't buy them either.... if others do, well... I would also like the seller to be educated about tarot, but I don't expect it, it's up to me to be educated about my choices. There are masterful decks out there; there are masterful books on the tarot out there. If they are not the best sellers, it’s a shame, but it does not affect the fact I still have a great deck [thoth] and great books on tarot on my shelf. Without sounding to bitter, we do live is a sad, corrupted and cheap world [human civilization].... but there are enough gems to illuminate the mind and lift the heart...there is still hope for humanity :-)

Lee	11 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy Native American Tarot - Groups all tribes under one umbrella, inappropriately uses Pipes as a suit, uses a sacred white bufalo as the Devil card, Kachinas are neither clowns, nor are they female. I disagree with that Tarot Passages review of Native American Tarot. If one reads the accompanying book, one can see that this is a very carefully-thought-out deck. The things that the reviewer complains about are all explained in the book; obviously she didn't bother to read the book. I think this is one of the best "theme" decks out there. I can't use it because some of the cards are bit too intense for me (the Queen of Swords holding a knife and fresh scalps), but I think it's a really neat deck. The loathing of Tarot of the Witches is not quite universal. I like it! :P -- Lee

truthsayer	11 May 2003
i don't know much about the publishing world so all i can go on is my own experience. ime, it's a "who you know world". i think people with ties to a publisher may have a greater chance of getting published. i got my best job because someone in a higher place referred me and gave me a good reference. i can't see why publishing decks wouldn't be the same. it's good to network and get to know lots and lots of people. rubbling elbows with people in high places is sometimes a necessity. for example, i was at a fund raiser yesterday and got to talk to our state representative. she's an artist, too and wanted to see some of my work. i showed her what i have done and made sure she knew i was available for more. who knows if this will go anywhere but i've gotten other jobs this way. i can't argue with success. my next step is going to be making some business cards. imho, learning how to market yourself is possibly more important than your product. if you offend the wrong person this could be quite damaging to the selling of your product. if you are found to be a likeable person then the possibility of your product selling (even if it's not as good as others) increases.

purplelady	13 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer it's a "who you know world". i think people with ties to a publisher may have a greater chance of getting published. i got my best job because someone in a higher place referred me and gave me a good reference. imho, learning how to market yourself is possibly more important than your product. There's a lot of truth in what you say, fortunately or unfortunately as it may be! Now that I think about it , I've gotten my Last 3 (and current!) job by being referred by someone. (nothing to do with writing or publishing) And the only person I know who has gotten a "better" job lately got it because her stepmother got her in! I suppose you could put yourself in Their shoes (the person doing the hiring) and look at it this way: It's better and maybe easier and safer to hire your mother's sister's neighbor's friend's daughter than a Complete stranger! Perhaps it gives a little bit of a (true or false) sense of security that at least this is a decent person because somebody who you know knows them! OR maybe they just think they're doing someone a favour? Not ALL jobs are filled this way, but many are.

purplelady	13 May 2003
Actually, I just remembered the job before the current one I was not referred by anyone. And I'd about had it too(with trying to get a job etc) I decided to h--- with it I wouldn't even bother to dress up! I wore an old shirt , a pair of pants , and boots! I'd just be *me* for the job interview and it worked! It was a guy doing the hiring. I really believe a lot of it has to do with good old luck of being in the right place at the right time.

HudsonGray	13 May 2003
I've got a 2 year Associate Degree in Marketing, you'd be surprised how much of that is just basic common sense.... Networking, anticipating what the other guy needs, making yourself/your goods available without hassles & blockages--that's 98% of getting something to market. Very often it does come down to who you know or being in the right place with the right thing at the right time.

The Why do good Tarot decks fail to make it to print? thread was originally posted on 06 May 2003 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.