book of thoth, da vinci or mermaids?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 23 Jun 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

bighairymonster	23 Jun 2003
Okay, if the world were a perfect place, I'd have every single tarot deck at my disposal. But I'm NOT in a perfect world, and I don't happen to have enough money to buy all three decks either, so I was hoping for some advice. I like the book of thoth (not the crowley one), leonardo da vinci and the tarot of the mermaids. But I don't know which one to buy!!!!!!!! which would YOU buy if u had a choice? Thanks! btw, i heard the da vinci one was a real gloomy deck.....is it?

firemaiden	23 Jun 2003
You're asking ME which one I'd buy :D (none of them HAHAHAHAHHA) but if forced to choose, it would be the Mermaids, although a deck with just mermaids makes me uneasy, I mean what happens with the suits that aren't about water? Hmmm. On the other hand, the Eteilla ("Book of Thoth") is an important historical deck and I feel stupid for not knowing it, so I guess I would get that one. Mari will have to tell you how she likes the Da Vinci.

full deck	23 Jun 2003
The Da Vinci is horridly gloomy, especially for those that like flowers, cats, fairies, elves, mermaids, pictures of Elvis and other such stuff in their decks. Da Vinci is only one of the finest artists ever! The Thoth is fascinating as well.

Cerulean	23 Jun 2003
The Thoth is available in many sizes and versions and will be around for a long long time. I hopefully submitted a Leonardo Da Vinci review that others will read soon---but to be honest, it's for the Italian Renaissance fan first. If you are disturbed by my noting that there is a Leonardo drawing of an actual hanged man, then it's not for you. The artists who did the Bosch Tarot and Tarot of the Third Millenium did keep their humor and references within the Leonardo mode, but it has grim classical allegories that you might not appreciate. If you are looking for modern and ancient enchantment, the sirens similar to mermaids include naiads (or nayads, similar to dryads, which are from trees), or natural spirits of local waterways, fountains, rivers and streams. There are also male water spirits such as Triton and various interactions between human and Olympian divinatories that yielded mermen, etc. So I'd be interested if Lo Scarabeo does include little-known male water spirit mythology. I've been researching the similarity of terms in naiads/nayads and used it for an introduction to an art tarot that I'm doing, but I don't have the full-blown mermaid theme as Lo Scarabeo's deck. The young of water-winged insects are known as nymphs in their gill-stage, which might have inspired ancients in their transformation stories.

Macavity	23 Jun 2003
I'd certainly like to see more cards from the Etteilla-like "Book of Thoth" deck - it's on my "tentative" list. It also seems to give a passing nod or two to the Mantegna as well? Yeah, I quite like the da Vinci too - Hanged people are OK by me (j/k), but I DO worry about people who draw pointy hats on great works of art! :D Macavity P.S. Mermaids always make me think of... Bette Middler })

firemaiden	23 Jun 2003
Macav, I got the impression that the "Book of Thoth" IS the Eteilla, a reprinting of it. Am I wrong?

Macavity	23 Jun 2003
Hiya FM :) Yup - my understanding too. But then I guess it depends on whether it's a Etteilla Mk.I Mk.II MK.III etc. :D But it does seem to have some hybrid characteristics as well. I'd like to see more of the deck... Fwiw, there are some more of the cards at:http://www.tarotpassages.com/EtteillaBookThoth.htm Fwiw, LoS. seem to have used the "Prudence" image (above) from the Mantegna - at least she looks more like THAT than e.g. the gal from my Grimaud Mk.III Etteilla. Tho' Temperance is more Tarot-like? ISTR they used the image of the "concentric spheres" (which caught my eye) for the World/Universe(?) - taken from the "Prima Causa" (last card) in the Mantegna. Quite a nice thing anyway... ;) Macavity

Myrrha	23 Jun 2003
Some of the choices for which painting to use for which card in the DaVinci deck are puzzling. I have read that ferrets and ermines were a symbol of chastity in the renaissance and yet this deck uses "Lady with an Ermine" for the Queen of Wands? Also the empty shell on the world card seems like a symbol of loss and emptiness, almost the opposite of the world card. I do like the creature piloting the boat in the six of swords and he would work as a suggestion to think in new ways and find new solutions. It would be fascinating to have this deck and use it as a departure point to find out more about DaVinci and his paintings but I'm not sure I would be able to use it for readings. The Lo Scarabeo Book of Thoth looks very intersting but I would want to know more about the the history and Ettiela's original deck or decks. Why did Lo Scarabeo put in cards from the Mantegna series? The image of Prudence doesn't actually look much like the Mantegna one, isn't she two-faced in Mantegna or am I misremembering? She holds a mirror and a snake in the Minchiate Etruria also doesn't she? Myrrha

Macavity	23 Jun 2003
Yeah, Myrrha I happily concede that ;) And Prudence is indeed two-faced. I suppose this particular "Book of Thoth" is modelled on the (top row) deck second from the left in (oft cited reference!): http://www.spiritone.com/~filipas/Masquerade/Reviews/historye.html My "reference" was the one on the extreme left (The Grimaud) which is, actually, among my favourite decks... Macavity

Cerulean	23 Jun 2003
I'm actually quoting my submitted review: 1. In the Leonardo Da Vinci Tarot, there are two artists. The Leda and the Swan image in the Leonardo Da Vinci World is by the artist who did Tarot of the Third Millenium and also painted the hat on the Mona Lisa. This is I. Ghiuselev. His Leda and the Swan shows the egg having been hatched---Leda was the mother of four mythical offspring according to some--Castor and Pollux being one set of twins, Helen and Clymenstra being the other. His set of 22 majors was done about ten years ago. A newer to Lo Scarabeo artist did the minors, A. Atanassov. Leda with Zeus as the Two of Cups in the minors, referring to the beginning of the myth of Leda as Queen of Sparta and Zeus fooling her into an affair by appearing first to her in the guise of a swan. The art style is somewhat different when you get the cards--I referred to the differences in style and the two Leda cards as part of the comparison of majors and minors. 2. Ermine/Queen of Wands question--not in the review, an aside: The ermine symbology was as many things, subject to change with every painter and era in Florentine art...the early through high Renaissance period had so many rapid changes in each generation of about 30 years...so I sympathize with confusion from older Mantegna and Ferarra symbologies with their Gothic or religious tendencies to the fashionable Milanese or Florentines with mistresses, etc... The court card choice of the Queen of Wands for Lady with Ermine. Everyone is right, overall the Da Vinci tarot can be a study deck and may be a kind of grim one for readings. Here's the Lady with Ermine commentary from a web review of the artist: This is thought to be a portrait of Cecilia Gallerani, who became Duke Lodovico's mistress in 1481, and was probably painted shortly afterwards. The ermine was one of Lodovico's emblems, and there is also a possibly play on the lady's name and the Greek word for ermine. Cecilia Gallerani wrote of her portrait by Leonardo to Isabella d'Este, so evidence of its authenticity is strong. Parts of the picture have been damaged and there are signs for repainting. However, the modeling of the lady's face, particularly the eyes and nose, has the unmistakable masterly touch of Leonardo. The ermine is surely pure Leonardo - a living, breathing, muscular, silky, lively creature that only a consummate artist with a passionate love and knowledge of nature could depict. - Linda Doeser, The Life and Work of Leonardo Da Vinci More than you wanted to know! Thanks for reading. Mari_Hoshizaki

Myrrha	24 Jun 2003
Hi MacCavity Wow! It is intersting that Ettiella included different divinitory meanings on his cards as he revised them. The 1865 deck that the Lo Scarabeo version gives a more general meaning for the chariot, "dissention/arrogance" rather than the "law suite/legal dispute" of the 1789 deck. I wonder if other meanings also change from more specific to more general. This chariot from the Grimaud edition is also very lovely but I couldn't find anymore cards on line. Do you use it for readings? Arrrgh! A whole new corner of the tarot universe to explore... still curious about why Lo Scarabeo would include images from a whole different (earlier) system, the Mantegna. Maybe the world cards in the Ettiella decks are really ugly? Hi Mari, Thank you for information on ermine symbolism, didn't realize it was her friend's emblem. I like it much better now knowing that. She is flaunting her connection with the duke! The image also reminds me of the Philip Pullman books where everyone has an animal "daemon" that reflects who they are inside. No, it was not more than i wanted to know...I am actually hoping you will write a book or long article someday on the history of regional italian tarot, the d'Estee family, etc. Myrrha

Myrrha	24 Jun 2003
Hmmm, were all three Etteilla decks actually designed by the French wigmaker Allietta? 1789 to 1865 is a long time to be in business producing cartomancy decks, especially as lives would not have been as long back then. I can see my next purchase is going to have to be the Encyclopedia of Tarot.... Myrrha

felicityk	24 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Myrrha Hmmm, were all three Etteilla decks actually designed by the French wigmaker Allietta? 1789 to 1865 is a long time to be in business producing cartomancy decks, especially as lives would not have been as long back then. I can see my next purchase is going to have to be the Encyclopedia of Tarot.... From what I've read, the Etteilla II and III patterns were produced after Alliette's death. Here is an online biography by James Revak: http://www.villarevak.org/bio/etteilla_1.html Felicity

Myrrha	24 Jun 2003
Thank you, Felicity, there is a lot here to read. So he was not a wig-maker at all! This biography seems to be saying that none of the available Etteilla decks are exact copies but are rather "based on" Eteilla's deck. "His pack was remarkably similar to two contemporary decks: Grand Etteilla: Ou Tarot ?gyptien [grand etteilla: egyptian gypsies tarot] published by France Cartes (Grimaud) and Jeu du grand Etteilla XIXe si?cle [grand etteilla deck 19th century] published by ?ditions Dusserre." The illustrations in the article are "adapted from" the Grimaud version which Revak describes in the captions as being "based on" Etteilla's original deck. How strange that Etteilla chose to omit the Lovers card. Some of the images are split top and bottom in a way that reminds me of early engraved advertisements where there is a logo at the top and a picture of the product at the bottom. Myrrha

felicityk	24 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Myrrha How strange that Etteilla chose to omit the Lovers card. Etteilla's deck was quite a departure from the traditional Tarot de Marseilles, so there's not an exact one-to-one correspondence between his 22 Major Arcana and the ones we are familiar with. I believe there are different views on which match up to which. You can view all the cards of an Etteilla deck at Tarot.com and see a different interpretation than the one James Revak provides. http://www.tarot.com/about-tarot/decks/browsedecks.php?newdeck=9 Felicity

Ruby7	30 Jun 2003
I would like to get an Etteilla deck and I am wondering about the new version, the Book of Thoth, that is a new release at Tarot Garden. It has been mentioned in this thread but does anyone have the deck at this point? Or does anyone have one of the other Etteilla decks that they really like? Would appreciate any information on this, Ruby7

RiccardoLS	30 Jun 2003
Excerpt from the "Book of Thoth" Etteilla booklet: (historical preface by Giordano Berti) The deck is a precise repuduction, without any modification by LS staff. From that model, classified by historians as “Grande Etteilla II” comes this deck called “Grande Etteilla III”, reprinted exactly identical to the original one, even concerning the titles and captions, by Lo Scarabeo. This version appeared in France around 1865 with the title, Grand Jeu de Oracle des Dames (Great Game of the Oracle of Ladies). The most obvious difference, in relation to previous models, concerns the Medieval-style figures. The symbols of some images, however, were also considerably transformed: For example, Prudence (no.12) became a young girl holding a mirror with a serpent wound around its handle, whereas Temperance (no.10) became a woman holding a horse’s bit. All of the captions on the cards, rather, remained unchanged. ---- Getting back to the original purpose of the thread, my suggestion would be: If you desire an esoteric historical deck: Etteilla If you desire an Art deck: Da Vinci If you desire a generic purpose divination deck, without too much of a puch: Mermaids. If You want to usa cards to study: Etteilla ... to meditate: Da Vinci ... to merrily chat: Mermaids And so on... :) best, Riccardo

Cerulean	11 Jul 2003
www.tarotpassages.com You'll notice that the Book of Thoth is pictures only. It's hard to write about. There's a pretty good review of Mermaids and I think, New Vision. If you are an art fan and need the Leonardo fix badly, then it's a classically wonderful pick. Why I think it's masculine, I don't know. But it has a scientific coolness to the majors. But if you only need one and like the RWS structure and there's a thirst for color and seaside stories...I'll put the books aside, bring out Tarot of the Mermaids and an Ovid paperback in my kayak and paddle into the sunset. The stories and sea lions out of the kelp beds peer out at you from such waters--and their eyes become transformed into imagined beauties---not shy and sanitized, but wildish and sensual. It was said in a Scottish-Welsh website that the young vividly beautiful mer-maidens had to attract a mortal male in order to not age into monsterous forms. If I'm lucky, I'll land at an island and be an artist and a tarot reader for a year and a day while touristas come and go. Then I'll retire my Mermaids Tarots and return to civilization, still dreaming... Okay I do need a vacation. Mari H.

The book of thoth, da vinci or mermaids? thread was originally posted on 23 Jun 2003 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.