A "real" Pagan Deck?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 31 Aug 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Macavity	31 Aug 2003
Not (hopefully) starting a controversy as to who are the "real" anything! }) But, I was gratified (not really the word, but...) to see that Kiama had experienced difficulties in finding a half-decent "Celtic" deck. (Thanks K, for bringing the Celtic Wisdom to my attention!) As my two cents, despite some limitations, I would bring up the rather nice Tarot 2000 Pagan (again)? :D But the question remains. What would you consider to be a half-decent "Pagan" deck, for a (this) non-practicing pagan. I have my own ideas e.g. I like the "green man" imagery of the T-2000-P. I'm kinda attracted to things like the Barbara Walker? But, I sense a certain "feminine exclusivity" Also, there are a lot of "fluffy bunnies". I realise "Modern European Pagan" covers a huge area, still... Any thoughts? :) Macavity

Kiama	31 Aug 2003
Well, a few suggestions might be the: Merryday Tarot Robin Wood Tarot Pagan 2000 (though this is more a Book or Aradia Tarot) Celtic Wisdom Tarot Tarot of the Old Path Legend: Arthurian Tarot Cosmic Tribe Glastonbury Tarot The Merryday however might be a bit too 'fluffybunny' for you, the Old Path might not be nice enough artwork-wise for you, and the Celtic Wisdom and Arthurian focus on the Celtic/Arthurian side of things, though both are inextricably linked to Paganism and its ideas and concepts. The Glastonbury Tarot too is mainly a mixture of Paganism, Arthurian legend, and mystic Christianity. The Cosmic Tribe Tarot is steeped in what I would call Pagan ideas, but it might be too nekkid for some! ;) I don't think there are really any decks out there that are perfectly and ultimately Pagan... Most of them are linked with other things such as Arthurian Legends, and others are just damn ugly! My vote would be for the Cosmic Tribe and Legend: Arthurian, because although I love the Robin Wood it is more a RWS clone with a hint of Paganism in it. Kiama

Lee	31 Aug 2003
Also the Sacred Circle... ? -- Lee

Moongold	31 Aug 2003
Macavity, I use Tarot of the Old Path. I'm not a Pagan, though very interested. I guess people can be solitary pagans, as you can be solitary wiccans? The art work of TotoP is ethereal and some of it is beautiful. The Magician is unusual and some of the other Majors are quite strikingly beautiful and different. The Courts are individual and some of the Minors are unique as well. We've had a study group going here for a while amd it would be worth having a look at the cards. There is a gracefulness and suppleness about TotoP that would definitely appeal to a Cat.

galadrial	31 Aug 2003
Alexandra Genetti is the very nice, very pagan lady who made the Wheel of Change deck. She was talking about another pagan deck once (I won't incriminate her by saying which!) and she called it "pagan lite". She is also quite intelligent and did (and still does) a lot of research. The ideas behind her deck are deep, extensive and unified (she doesn't care for "open" systems; all her ideas tie together). I'm not pagan myself, but I love her deck and it's focus on the earth, seasons, etc. I'm not a Tom cat, but I don't think you would find it too feminist; I think it is very balanced. I particularly like her ideas on the Emperor and Devil as twins and how their energies tie in with the equinoxes and solstices.

Macavity	31 Aug 2003
Thanks Kiama for a well considered list... and to Lee... and Moongold, for thoughts on the Tarot of the Old Path. Yes, now those ARE the sort of decks I was thinking about. It's odd that (subjectively) there aren't (imo and perhaps others) all THAT many "good" ones. Perhaps indeed a potential market? ;) Reminds me that I have yet to get the accompanying book(?) for the "T2000P" and there wasn't a whole lot of info on the Aradian tradition. But I digress! Fwiw, I've always had, at the back of my mind, the ToToP... and indeed the Sacred Circle. Still looking for "representative" decks to avoid excessive spending :laugh: Exit all to lusty rendition of (Whicker Man) "Zummer is a cummin' in..."? }) Macavity P.S. Just seen your post, Galadrial - veeeery (sic!) interesting. A pagan take on my more familiar Thoth-alikes. Indeed food for thought... Thanks!

brennamor	01 Sep 2003
This deck in progress by Tom Tadfor Little (http://www.telp.com/tarot/ladylord/) is promising. Tom created it to specifically focus on Wiccan spirituality and beliefs. It's been very interesting and fun watching it grow.

Kiama	01 Sep 2003
Oh yes, how could I forget the Wheel of Change! I LOVE this deck. Absolutely stunning deck, pretty, but deep and meaningful... I highly recommend it. Kiama

catlin	01 Sep 2003
Shall we count the World Spirit deck also among the Pagan ones? Personally I stick to my Pagan 2000, Arthurian (both the Legend and the Hollowquest) and Sacred Circle together with Robin Wood and the Fairy Wicca of course.

Maan	01 Sep 2003
I believe wicce from www.wicce.com is still working on a pagan tarot together with lo scoarabeo. There have been some preview pictures on tarotpassages but after that i haven't heared about it.http://www.tarotpassages.com/LSpreview2.htm The other deck are already printed or soon to be...but the pagan tarot not yet :( I think i would like this deck. Love Maan

CompassRose	01 Sep 2003
I think there would definitely be a market... I'm still looking for the same thing. I've leafed through (and in some cases actually owned) all the above suggestions among published decks, and more or less dislike all of them.

Cerulean	01 Sep 2003
If it's not a multicultural, Llewellyn, Celtic, Goddess or some of the "Witches" tarots out there, would would be a pagan deck? Would it be modern, not like the Pagan 2000? The one witches decks that I am thinking of, one is reviewed on Tarotpassages.com as a 'witchy tarot'...maybe it's more a novelty deck? I am interested in hearing the definitions, if the above flavors of decks might not apply. For instance, I call the Ukiyoe Tarot essentially a Japanese deck with U.S. and Angel Playing Cards (Japan) designs. They actually did the minors in Japanese style, which is Hanafuda cards, which were Japanese designs that developed after 1600. I call Hanafuda cards Japanese, as their designs were transformed to cover the betting Western games that came from them originated from from Portugese sailors in Nagasaki prior to 1600. I'm actually not certain if my examples apply at all. Mari H.

Butterfly	01 Sep 2003
I also consider Waking the Wild Spirit to have a very earthy, pagan feel to it.

raeanne	02 Sep 2003
Hi all, I think the Greenwood Tarot is a good pagan deck. It is out of print but well worth looking for!

Yvonne Rathbone	02 Sep 2003
For a pagan sensibility, I like: Greenwood Tarot Wheel of Change Tarot of the Crone For decks that weren't created with Paganism in mind, but don't conflict, I like: Thoth Voyager Nigel Jackson -Yvonne Rathbone

WolfSpirit	03 Sep 2003
Maybe the Swedish Witch (Jolanda den Tredjes) could be called a pagan deck ? I agree that the greenwood would be a lovely choice, although it is getting more difficult to find. I wonder what men (or tomcats) think of the Wheel of Change. Although there are men and women in the deck, from the book I get the impression it was mostly written for women (for example the text for Strength). Although I like the Meryday I would not recommend it as a pagan deck. IMO it is more a fantasy/fairy-tale/creative deck (but not fluffy-tsssssss ;) ) with some multi-cultural influences (african, japanese, native american) and a love for nature. It is a good deck to get my story-telling capacity going.

jema	03 Sep 2003
It's OOP but might pop up on e-bay sometime if you are lucky: http://www.newmoontradingco.com/trading/bluemoon/bluemoon.htm the blue moon tarot by Julie Cuccia-Watts (same person who made Ancestral path) and yes, WolfSpirit, i do think that jolandas swedish wich deck has a lot of pagan "feel" to it. especially when you got the book (that is in swedish only)

Macavity	03 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by WolfSpirit I wonder what men (or tomcats) think of... Well I think that the thread has panned-out rather well, with lots of great suggestions... and almost (dare I suggest) a pagan concensus? :) I think the phrase "modern EU-pagan" was a bit exclusive, but despite that most of these decks caught the (my) desired flavour. To present an ideal, then maybe something like the Tarot 2000 Pagan with just a bit more productional "oomph"? But Fwiw, I have liked the look of the "Tarot of the Old Path" and indeed the "Wheel of Change". Those and others I will look at further... As a "guy thing", perhaps a Heathen (real pagan subset?) deck might be quite fun too - A "Lil' Saxons with big swords" Deck? :laugh: I think such a thing was captured nicely on the "Old English Tarot", but in a fairly non-pagan way. More seriously though, Northern mythology tradition has, I suspect a deal to offer in terms of images? Also Runic and magickal associations and, in my reading, a whole "Kabalah" (or rather multiverse?) to play with... :D Macavity

brennamor	04 Sep 2003
Macavity wrote: >As a "guy thing", perhaps a Heathen (real pagan subset?) deck might be quite fun too - A "Lil' Saxons with big swords" Deck? I think such a thing was captured nicely on the "Old English Tarot", but in a fairly non-pagan way. More seriously though, Northern mythology tradition has, I suspect a deal to offer in terms of images? Also Runic and magickal associations and, in my reading, a whole "Kabalah" (or rather multiverse?) to play with... < If you're interested in Heathen/Viking decks then you might want to check out Tarot of Northern Shadows, Norse Tarot by Clive Barrett and the new Lo Scarabeo Viking Tarot. All have a Pagan/Viking feel to them. And Barrett makes an effort to associate runes with the Majors (but of course his associations are open for debate ;)) I really like all 3 decks although the Norse Tarot is my favorite with Viking Tarot a close second. There is also the Runic Tarot. A small (in size) self-published deck from the Netherlands. The creator's philosophy may be a bit unique but I love the cards. You can see them here: http://www.alfheim.cistron.nl/runes/eng/

Macavity	06 Sep 2003
Thanks Brennamor. I think the Norse Tarot, will always be slightly (for me!) in the shadow of Barrett's consumate Ancient Egyptian. But the LoS "Vikings" is indeed an very attractive deck, which (among those others) I will think about... ;) Macavity

Maan	06 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by brennamor There is also the Runic Tarot. A small (in size) self-published deck from the Netherlands. The creator's philosophy may be a bit unique but I love the cards. You can see them here: http://www.alfheim.cistron.nl/runes/eng/ [/b] Thanks for this link Brennamor. I had never seen this deck. Its great to see such an original deck comming from my country. I might order it! Love Maan

Yvonne Rathbone	06 Sep 2003
[quote]Originally posted by WolfSpirit [b]Maybe the Swedish Witch (Jolanda den Tredjes) could be called a pagan deck ? I wonder what men (or tomcats) think of the Wheel of Change. Although there are men and women in the deck, from the book I get the impression it was mostly written for women (for example the text for Strength). Me: Genetti, herself, is very gender balanced. She loves the divine masculine as much as the divine feminine, so while I understand that's your impression, Genetti did not intend this to be a deck mostly for women. That doesn't mean she didn't tip the scale towards the feminine, which I think it does a little bit. She's got two levels of her pyramidal structure of the majors devoted to the feminine and only one to the masculine. But the tipping isn't that far, I think it just looks really far because we are so used to the scales being tipped way in the other direction. Still, look at her Emperor. She's got one of the most positive Emperor I've ever encountered. And her negative Heirophant is more negative about organized religion than about anything masculine. Also her court cards are very balanced, with the Knight being the highest ranked in the masculine suits of swords and wands, while the Queens are highest ranked in the cups and disks. Anyway, this isn't meant to attack, just to give another pov.

WolfSpirit	07 Sep 2003
Yvonne, when I said it seems to me the Wheel of Change was written mostly for women, I did not mean the deck describes men in a negative way, but that the book talks more about women and seems to leave men out a bit. Hope I can explain what I mean by an example: Genetti calls the Strength card one of the cards that represent the stages in a woman's life, of the girl reaching womanhood. I have not read the whole book, I know she does not do this to all the cardsbut there are some more. I do like the deck, I find it very original and creative and with lots of different cultures incorporated, but I would love it more if it had been more balanced. I am still wondering if there are men who own and use this deck.

Yvonne Rathbone	07 Sep 2003
[quote]Originally posted by WolfSpirit [b]Yvonne, when I said it seems to me the Wheel of Change was written mostly for women, I did not mean the deck describes men in a negative way, but that the book talks more about women and seems to leave men out a bit. Me: I understood you. I just disagreed that the deck left men out. I've read Genetti's book several times and have talked with her extensively about her deck. That's why I was chiming in with more information. But, in my view, it doesn't leave men out, . They are very much there. There's the four stations of the Sun and the very balanced treatment toward the male court cards. In fact, I think men are better represented in WOC than in lot of decks. And I did agree with you that the deck is tipped in the feminine direction. I just disagreed to what degree. And ultimately, however the deck feels to you as a reader is totally legitimate regardless of what I think.

Lee	07 Sep 2003
I have the Wheel of Change, and as a man, I did find that it was somewhat leaning toward the feminine, and I didn't really feel comfortable working with it. There were several examples, most of which I can't recall right now (I'm at work and don't have access to the deck at the moment), but one card I do recall was the Moon, where the water on the card is colored red and is described in the book as menstrual blood. -- Lee

The A "real" Pagan Deck? thread was originally posted on 31 Aug 2003 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.