Haindl tarot

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 03 Oct 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Emily	03 Oct 2003
My Haindl tarot was delivered this morning and I've spent the whole day (on and off) going through it, shuffling, taking cards at random and seeing differrent things on the cards each time. Even before I'd opened the package I had the 'wow' factor. I don't usually like deck and book sets because the decks never seem to be very well packaged and you don't get a box to keep the deck in - Well the Haindl set is different, the box is like a book sleeve - the book fits snugly in and the deck has its own box that fits snugly too. There is also a paper spread sheet included - it is the celtic cross but worded differently and very usable. Then once I opened the deck the second 'wow' factor hit home. The deck is large measures around 13 cm X 7 cm but I have small hands and didn't have a problem shuffling them at all, the card stock is good, the laminate slick. The colours are predominantly earthy tones, lots of creams and light browns, browny greens, blues and some red. They are full of hidden themes, clouds that look like eagles, elephants hidden in rock faces, animal figures on lots of the cards, a lot of the human figures are naked, in the deck you don't even notice that because there is so much happening in the cards. The courts have been swapped round and you now have Mother, Father, Daughter, Son. Its refreshing to see thef Mother/Queen be placed first in a deck, the Runes, I Ching, kabbalah, all add to the attractiveness of the cards. The Minors are as full of meaning as the Majors, you just have to look deeper within the cards. The suits are Swords, Wands, Cups and Stones - each have a different element and culture attached to them. Some of the Majors have been changed - Alchemy/Temperance, Aeon/Judgement and keywords on the Minors. The book included in the set is called 'A Readers Handbook'. In it Rachel Pollack says that this book is as the title says a book to help you read with the Haindl without going as far into the symbolism as the first two books did. She says that you don't need to have the first two books to be able to understand and use the Haindl (but I'm going to get them anyway because I can see this deck as being my primary reading deck :) )The book does go into alot of detail with all the cards, I love her style of writing, very down to earth and understandable. I did a new deck spread within an hour of having this deck, so I'll post that later. I really do like this deck, the artwork, the colours, the size, the extra elements included, the I ching, Runes etc., But I do think it falls into the category as one of the decks you either love or hate. I was going to just try and use it for meditation only but having seen all of the cards, I can't wait to get to know them properly and start reading and using it. :) Who else uses this deck, what do you think of it - Does it read well? Does it give honest readings?

WolfSpirit	04 Oct 2003
Wow Emily your enthusiasm makes me look forward to my Haindl (it is a trade coming from far and I am already getting impatient), I hope I like it as much as you do. I will get the Handbook for the deck too, don't know about the other books yet. Enjoy your deck, I hope more users post here as I am not much help yet :)

Emily	04 Oct 2003
Hi wolfSpirit, This deck has an amazing aura surrounding it, its not often I feel like I've had a deck before but I do feel it with this one, some reviews on here have said that it feels like a sad or sombre deck, mainly because of the colours maybe, but I think that its very intense. I dreamt about the Emperor of this deck last night lol, strange dream, he was trying to sort out some problems I have and we talked, he looked slightly different but I could tell who he was - I don't often dream about my tarot cards but I think the Emperor stuck in my mind because its my soul card and the first one I took out of the deck yesterday before I did my new deck spread with it. I hope your deck comes quickly, WolfSpirit :) Also last night I gave in to temptation and ordered the two other books for it.

Jewel-ry	04 Oct 2003
Hi Emily, Glad to hear your Haindl have arrived and that your so enthralled with them. Its a really unusual deck. I have only been interested in Tarot for a few months and it was one of my earlier buys. Needless to say I have accumulated many decks since and it seems whenever I get a new one I move on, always meaning to go back to the many others that I have but never having enough time to do so...... Your enthusiasm prompted me to get mine out again and I still love them! (I think it'll be all change again!!). I have the two books that go with the deck. They are so well written and are dripping with explanations of the symbolism and other snippets of information. I have the revised editions in which some of the minor arcana cards have been renamed. This isnt a problem though. Some of these cards are my absolute favourites ever. The High Priestess, Empress, Tower to name but a few, and dont they just feel nice? The size is just right. Something Ive noticed is that the light I'm working with very often impacts tremendously on these cards and the feelings I get. For instance a dark dismal environment can make them seem very dark but on a sunny day or under artifical light, they just come alive. That probably seems a little weird to understand but just thought I'd try to explain it. I did a few readings with them when I first got them and I found them quite accurate although to be honest I was doing a lot more studying then than readings. Now the deck is out again though I've a feeling it'll be around for a little while....... Look forward to hearing how you are getting on.

Layla	04 Oct 2003
I'm happy you're find such joy in this wonderful deck. It's definitely one of my favorite decks and I find that it gives very good readings. I love the card's subtlety. I can get lost in the hidden landscapes of the minors, and the majors display a lot more details than most of the other decks I own. Not to mention that they are hauntingly beautiful. Some of my favorite cards include the Hermit, the Empress, Death, the Tower, 2 and 3 of Cups, 2 and 3 of Wands, 2 of Stones, and strangely enough 5 of Stones. Even the swords are beautiful, which I highly approve of. Disturbing, but beautiful. I don't think the cards are sombre or sad at all. Your dream about the Emperor is the best possible sign that you've connected with the cards. :) I also have to note that the quality of the cards is the best I've ever seen. The cards are so smooth and sleek that they feel like silk. Shuffling them is a dream. And I love the golden (well yellow, but it feels like gold) glow of the back side and that huge mesmerizing eye. Hope you continue to enjoy your new cards, I know I never stopped.

punchinella	05 Oct 2003
Hi Emily--you were asking who else uses Haindl, & what the readings are like. I've noticed something very distinctive about Haindl readings as opposed to readings with other decks . . . which is, that Haindl readings are much more like I Ching consultations--much more spiritually oriented--than the readings I do with all my other decks. Not to say that readings with, say, mythic or old path or renaissance or de angelis aren't spiritual--they are! Only . . . readings with Haindl, to me, feel COMPLETELY spiritual. Because of this, I don't really feel comfortable reading for other people with this deck . . . spiritual matters being just too personal somehow. I don't feel comfortable probing other people on this level, nor do I want to be probed; my Haindl deck is, therefore, something that for now at least I keep to myself. I read I Ching (Wilhelm/Baynes ed.) for years before ever discovering tarot--& Haindl really does feel so much the same: in that the deck invariable sets me back on the 'path of virtue' should I find myself straying . . . What this 'path of virtue' is I can't possibly explain, except to say that I know it when I see it, & I definitely see it in this deck (possibly because of all the suffering & darkness in Haindl's past--war experiences, etc.--unusual wisdom having accrued from his having seen so much death . . . ??? --Oh, I don't know.) I should add that one doesn't always feel like being set back on the path of virtue, & as a result of this I don't wind up using my Haindl deck often. It sits, however, in the position of highest honor in my 'serious decks only' drawer, ceremonially wrapped in pale blue . . . when, periodically, spiritual realignment DOES become necessary, I know where to go. --Hmmmn, having written all of the above I'm sort of curious to know how many people feel the same way about their Haindl decks! (Or, is this response just entirely my own thing?) --Emily, as soon as I post this I'm going to look for your new deck reading, I hope it's up! --Congratulations on an EXCELLENT aquisition. P.

lawguy51	05 Oct 2003
The Haindl deck for me was like the girl in highschool who was beautiful and had all the characterisitics I would want in a girlfriend, but I just couldn't make myself fall in love. I spent a couple of months using and studying the deck, read both of Pollack's books but when it came down to it, the deck just didn't resonate with me. And I couldn't relate to the court cards. But I do love the deck. Just for me, I can't read with it. Thankfully, the Haindl deck broke down my resistance to purchasing the Thoth deck, which I subsequently did and we've been 'going steady' ever since. Enjoy the deck. It is one of the extraordinary ones. Lawguy51

punchinella	06 Oct 2003
Lawguy, I thought I was the only one around with a serious resistance to Thoth--P.

Emily	06 Oct 2003
Just posted my new deck reading - thought I'd already done it lol. I am having some good readings with this deck, I'm doing daily draws of usually 3 cards, it has a sense of humour - like giving me the 3 Stones (keyword 'work') when i should be working. But it's easy to get distracted with them because as you look you see things that you saw but didn't recognise. Like on the Lovers card, in the corner above the woman is what I thought was the Devil, and I thought yes that would work with the temptation, having to make choices. Quite pleased with myself I checked the book and its not a devil but a unicorn lol :D (But it'll always be a devilish looking unicorn lol ) I think it would be really easy to use these cards in meditation, you can lose yourself in them. Usually when I run across a card I'm not sure of the first thing to pop into my mind is the Rider Waite version but its not happening with these at all, I think its because they're not a clone deck. The I Ching and Runes are really useful, I've used the I Ching and dabbled in the Runes before, its nice to see them on a card together.

lawguy51	06 Oct 2003
Quote: Originally posted by punchinella Lawguy, I thought I was the only one around with a serious resistance to Thoth--P. Not anymore, love it now!!

lawguy51	06 Oct 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Emily I'm not sure of the first thing to pop into my mind is the Rider Waite version but its not happening with these at all, I think its because they're not a clone deck. Well, actually, it kinda is [a clone deck]. Check out all of those titles on the minors, the astrological symbols and the way the suit symbols are arranged then check out the Thoth deck. In fact, you can go right here: http://www.angelfire.com/celeb/Crowley/thoth/thoth.html ..and see for yourself. Lawguy51

Emily	07 Oct 2003
Hi Lawguy51, Just followed your link and I do see what you mean - alot of the keywords are the same as the Thoth as well. The Thoth is a deck I've struggled with for a while although I didn't make the connection between the Haindl and the Thoth. It does remind me of the Rohrig though but visually its very different from either the Thoth or the Rohrig.

punchinella	07 Oct 2003
--Just want to point out one way in which Haindl does NOT clone Thoth--the strength card remains strength, has not been renamed 'lust' (unfortunately, Haindl does change lion to snake, which doesn't really work for me, although this isn't enough to put me off the deck.) Also--the numbers here follow RWS (strength as 8, Justice 11) not Thoth. You know--I think the strength to lust thing is my main objection to Thoth . . . strength being an all-time favorite card . . . WHY CHANGE IT? Not to sound prudish or anything, but in my mind strength is a positive thing--a virtue--& lust is not . . . I'm not objecting to the idea of basic sexuality being a part of tarot (it's already implicit in the empress card, for example)--but as I see it, the strength card is all about self-control . . . controlling the inner lion & nurturing him are, ultimately, the same thing . . . if the card name is changed to lust then these ideas of control & nurture, it seems to me, are entirely lost. & so far as I'm concerned this is a sad thing. --But Haindl doesn't fall for this anyway, so I suppose so far as this thread is concerned the point is moot. --P.

lawguy51	07 Oct 2003
Quote: Originally posted by punchinella --but as I see it, the strength card is all about self-control . . . controlling the inner lion & nurturing him are, ultimately, the same thing . . . if the card name is changed to lust then these ideas of control & nurture, it seems to me, are entirely lost. & so far as I'm concerned this is a sad thing. No question, Crowley was not interested in self-control from what I know of his life. And it's been stated many times that the Thoth deck in general, appeals more to males than to females, although I don't believe that to be true. And the Lust card is always where the debate begins. Now it's true, that lust can refer to an obsessive sexual compulsion, but I prefer the meaning contained in the phrase 'lust for life'. My understanding of the card, is to live life to the fullest, to be human, to remove cultural shackles that inhibit one's ability to freely experience every joyful human experience without guilt or shame. Strength, yes, the stoical approach is prefered by many, but I prefer the idea of self-control like the way a jockey controls a race horse, flat out but directed towards a purposeful goal. Hmmm, jockey, woman on lion....:)

lawguy51	07 Oct 2003
Hmmm, for some reason my reply was posted twice, so I have deleted it here. :) Lawguy51

Aoife	07 Oct 2003
One of the particular attractions for me of Haindl is that it is informed by what has gone before [echoes of rsw; influenced by thoth] but transcends traditional interpretations. With regard to the issue of lust/strength, I find the symbolism of the snake carries foward that introduced by the lion. In the accompanying book by Rachel Pollack, she talks about the snake "spiraling upward, a symbol of personal evolution, personal power". But, as features so often in Haindl, the issue of personal responibility in the wider world is carried forward in the notion of the woman [pictured] as shamanic healer. "She does not raise the serpent just for herself. As a healer, she serves the community. This is part of what allows her to tap the energy without being overwhelmed..... The person need strength to deal with [such energy] - not aggressive force but the strength of inner peace and belief". It seems to me that attaining inner strength is an admirable pursuit, very personally satisfying, but it cannot be said to be truly complete until one uses it, in interaction with others, for the benefit of others. For me, strength is an active/interactive process and not just a personal inner journey.

punchinella	08 Oct 2003
Well, okay guys, yeah yeah, I suppose in a sense both Haindl's snake & Crowley's nomenclature are more 'positive' in the sense that the idea is to go with rather than against the prevailing (be it internal or external) current . . . but take the athletic perspective: does one develop muscular power by swimming with or against? I suppose in cases where the point is to get there as quickly as possible (rescue 911) one wants to go, certainly, with the current. However--in less dire circumstances, training against it will prepare one to get there EVEN FASTER next time. The more internal/personal strength one builds, the more ready one will be to help others--right?? & in my own experience, I've found discipline to be the best thing going for building strength, physical & otherwise . . . The self-control/self-discipline typically invoked by the strength card, in my understanding of it anyway, has nothing whatsoever to do with sexual repression/inhibition, etc. etc.--until Crowley comes along, at which point--unless one wants to go along with his name-change--suddenly, it does . . . or, seems to, anyway . . . & for this I'm not entirely thankful . . . Oh, aaugh. I've mired myself up nicely haven't I. --P.

Emily	08 Oct 2003
I think maybe the reason Haindl chose the snake to represent strength was because the card shows a goddess, this is according to the book, conducting a moonlight ritual - goddess's were sometimes shown with snakes wrapped around their arms and also the Hebrew letter associated with this card is 'Teth' - snake. Also in the book this card is titled 'Inner Strengh' - I must admit that this is one of my favourite major cards because it shows a snake and not the more traditional lion.

punchinella	08 Oct 2003
Really? You actually prefer snake to lion? --Hmmph! --P.

Emily	08 Oct 2003
Hi Punchinella, I do yes lol, I want to move away from Rider Waite symbolism/art - I've studied with the Rider Waite and have been exploring different tarot decks, the Soprafino decks, Thoth, Spiral - but the Haindl is so different its refreshing - the Tarot of the Spirit, a Thoth clone deck, also uses snakes on its strength card. I wanted a deck that would change the way I read tarot, give new thoughts and visuals and I have found it with the Haindl. :)

punchinella	08 Oct 2003
Well Emily newbie that I am I guess I just haven't fully digested old traditional yet & that's why I'm so stuck on the lion . . . maybe in a few years I too will be able to appreciate the snake(!) Just out of curiosity, have you been able to use Thoth or Tarot of the Spirit? Or is Haindl your first serious foray into this territory? I'm curious because when I had Tarot of the Spirit here, I found it IMPOSSIBLE to work with . . . & yet I have no difficulty w/ Haindl . . . Just curious--P.

WolfSpirit	09 Oct 2003
punchinella - if you are a newbie I am not surprised you find the Tarot of the Spirit impossible to work with it. It was one of the first decks I bought, I loved the artwork but I could not work with it at all. Now that I am a bit less of a newbie I have rediscovered the deck and I really love it. I don't use it all the time, but when I use it it can give great readings. So if you do like the look of the deck, maybe you could give it another try later on ? There is no lion in the Strength card but there are some cool lions in the court cards ;) I love lions but I understand Emily's remark that another representation can give a fresh look of a card.

Emily	09 Oct 2003
Hi Punchinella, When I first had the Tarot of the Spirit I wasn't too sure of the artwork on the Majors, it bothered me until someone said on here that it might be a good thing, at least it was touching me on some level lol - the Minors I loved straight off - but it is a deck that grows on you, I have no problem with it now, still think the Majors are a little strange but the whole deck is like dream quality artwork anyway and really thats the whole essence of the deck. I like the book that goes with it. The Thoth is a deck that I've put on the backburner for now, I was struggling to use it even though I like it, I think its a deck you have to work hard at to use. I did go back to studying the Universal Waite for a couple of months but I was still looking for that 'deck' and the Haindl does feel like it.

Emily	10 Oct 2003
Hi WolfSpirit, I wondered if your Haindl has come yet?. Its hard to believe I've only had these cards for 6 days, it feels like forever - my other decks will start to get jealous because I'm taking this deck everywhere and seem to be shuffling or pulling cards all the time - My hubby who doesn't like my tarot hobby asked about them, the only other deck of mine that he likes is the Rohrig, and I think he quite likes the Haindl. :)

isthmus nekoi	10 Oct 2003
As for the snake in Strength.... doesn't Crowley's Lust card have a Lion whose tail is a snake body w/lion head? (image repeated in the tower). Also Lust has a bunch of worms, which are very snakelike. Perhaps there is a connection.....

WolfSpirit	10 Oct 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Emily Hi WolfSpirit, I wondered if your Haindl has come yet?. No, not yet :( It is a trade from around the world and it will be here at earliest next week, but it could take longer... if I get too impatient I will order the book and hopefully that has pictures to all the cards so I can satisfy some of my curiosity. I hope I will not be disappointed after your enthusiastic posts ;)

Emily	12 Oct 2003
The one book I have 'A Reader's Handbook' just has small black and white piccies but you can still see the details of the cards, just about, I'm waiting for the two first books she wrote on the cards - The 'Readers Handbook' is a very condensed version of them I think. I don't actually think you could use this deck without some kind of help, even though the LWB is very good for a LWB. Also because of the browns and muddy colours used the bright colours on the cards really stand out - The Sun is fast turning into my favourite card. Something else I've noticed with this deck is that each Cup, Sword, Wand, Stone seems to have been individually drawn - you get some decks that look like each Cup/Sword etc is the same one used over and over again on different cards - These don't look like that, I couldn't find one cup that looked the same - so I think Haindl drew each one from scratch and didn't copy them exactly from card to card. (Can you tell I'm totally in love with this deck :D )

WolfSpirit	14 Oct 2003
Ah, the deck is here already the postman has not let me down. As a true taroholic I can recognize the sound of a deck falling on the floormat :) I haven't had much time with it yet but my first impression is that it is much more colourful than I had expected, maybe because many call it a dark deck and the scans online don't do justice to the cards either, in real life they show much more detail. Ha, Emily I thought the unicorn on the Lovers card was a devil too, I only noticed when I re-read this thread. This deck really has lovely cards. I like the court cards too, well most cards are beautiful but I need a little time with it to study the details. I will get the handbook but for the moment I like just going through the cards by my own. Emily, did you get the two Pollack books yet ? Please keep us informed if you think they are useful when you already have the Handbook!

lark	14 Oct 2003
hi Wolfspirit Check out this site EdwardRHamilton.com They have the Pollack books 4.95 for the majors 2.95 for the minors.

Emily	14 Oct 2003
Hi Wolfspirit, No I'm still waiting for the books, its going to be around another 2 weeks before I get them. Also I've found a slight problem with reading for other people - I was supposed to be doing a reading with my Haindl in the reading forum but I've had a terrible couple of days with it. The readings seemed to be so off and were making no sense but its reading ok for me. I think this is a deck that just wants to be used for personal readings. I've just pulled out my pocket Rider Waite and done the offered reading in minutes, very clear and to the point. I think maybe I need a little more practise with the Haindl before I feel confident enought to offer readings with it lol

The Haindl tarot thread was originally posted on 03 Oct 2003 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.