A question for all you Marseilles afficionados

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 10 Nov 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Bean Feasa	10 Nov 2003
I've been reading a lot on the forum about the pros and cons of decks with illustrated/unillustrated pips, and am quite intrigued. I'd like to try out a Marseilles-style deck to see how it feels, but the really traditional decks intimidate me completely, I can't imagine I'd be able to relate to those historical-looking 2-dimensional figures (respect and apologies to those who love them!). I've browsed among the more contemporary versions and am attracted by both the Crystal and the Vision Tarots. Would any of you have any advice as to which would be the better for a Tarot tyro? Or indeed is there any other approachable Marseilles-style deck that you'd recommend? I have to narrow it down to one deck as I have been way too extravagant in my Tarot purchases up to now. All advice appreciated, blessings, Kate

lark	10 Nov 2003
I have been looking at marseilles decks all morning. I feel like I should own at least one so I can experiment with this style of deck. I was going to post this question too. So thanks for asking. I'll be very interested to hear the responses. I too have been very naughty lately so I want to make a good choice. Namaste

Moonbow*	10 Nov 2003
While I dont profess to be an expert on Marseilles type decks, I do have the Vision. I'll admit that I didn't like the look of this deck when I first bought it. In fact I was quite cross with myself for buying without researching the pics on the internet first. But this has turned out to be a very useable deck. (some I've got I dont think are as good for doing readings). The BEST thing about the Vision is th pips. The different suits have different edges e.g Swords have metal, cups have ice, pentacles have coins, and wands have wood. Ive found that because there is no picture to help with the card meaning that this makes me remember them for myself. I really like this deck even though it isn't one of the prettiest on the market, but then I prefer the more RW clones Hope this helps. If you do get this deck I'd be interested in your thoughts. PS the LWB with it is very good

Lee	10 Nov 2003
Here's two non-illustrated-pip decks with friendlier images which you might try (they're inexpensive, too): Art of Tarot http://www.tarotpassages.com/deanartoftarot-lb.htm and Beginner's Tarot http://www.tarotpassages.com/beginners-lb.htm -- Lee :)

Cerulean	10 Nov 2003
that is sold separately than the book and deck set. Kind of fun because it shows both Art of Tarot deck in detail and the might-be-going-out-of-print 2001 Visconti Gold deck that only has a LWB and an upside down 'a bon droyt' motto on a card or two. Liz Dean's book is in Lee's review on TarotPassages. I like it as a novelty and it's a pretty color guide. So you might want to check out that book and it may be a soft way to ease into Marseilles-styles...that is, Italian versions of Marseilles styles.... Mari H. (hehehe, the #2 Italian style Marseilles deck fan...someone else claimed the #1 title first...)

jmd	10 Nov 2003
It seems that it you want a 'genuine' Marseille style deck, then, to a large extant, the 'flat' representations are part of the deal... but give them time to unfold their multi-dimensionality. It also appears that due to its colouring and shading, some people find the Fournier Marseilles preferable for this very reason. I would, however, especially recommend without hesitation the Hadar, the Camoin, and the Conver... A number of others I would not suggest, such as the Convos or the altered Burdel (LS). Then there are a large group of other Marseille decks which are also sood standards, such as the Marteau, Piatnik, and myriad others...

Mimers	10 Nov 2003
Bean Feasa, I hate to do this to you because you have gotten so many suggestions already. I have owned both the Vision Tarot and The Crystal Tarot. The Crystal Tarot is by far more beautiful and expressive. Unless you like decks with pictures of real people. The Crystal Tarot is breathtakingly beautiful. Firemaiden has one and I have done readings with it no problem, and I am an illustrated pips kind of girl! My next suggestion is to buy a Marseilles deck as well. I did not like it at first, but after purchasing the Camoin deck I am so glad I gave it a chance. It is full of beauty and meanings. Give it a chance. I strongly reccomend the Camoin, but it is hard to come by in the states. Perhaps the Fournier or the Hadar. PS Chris Hadar has a great web site where you can learn all about the Marseilles deck. It has been a tremendous learning experience for me. Here is a link: http://www.krishadar.com/A/index1A.asp?na=n&pa=p Let us know what you choose. I am sure Firemaiden would not mind at all if you pmed her asking about the Crystal Tarot! Mimi

Rusty Neon	10 Nov 2003
I find that the Vision deck and the various Italian (Soprafino) decks and probably the Crystal tarot as well, have pip cards that are frankly boring, in that, within a given suit, the pip cards are barely distinguishable between each other, except for the number of cups, swords, etc. The pip cards of the Nicolas Conver based Tarot de Marseille pattern (e.g., Heron, Marteau, Grimaud, Jodorowsky/Camoin, Hadar, Fournier) are a heckuva lot more interesting because, within a same suit, there is a subtle yet discernable difference between cards of a given suit that goes beyond the number of cups, swords, etc. thanks to botanical and other design differences.

Emily	11 Nov 2003
I'm not attracted to the woodcut style of the marseille decks but I do have 3 Soprafino decks - the Ancient Italian and the Classic tarots are Lo Scarabeo decks. The pip minors are very pretty, they use the same design as the traditional marseille deck but the artwork is drawn. There is also the deck that these two were copied from, a limited edition 'Tarocco Soprafino' by Il Meneghello but this is too delicate to be used as an everyday deck. The IJJ Swiss is a sort of marseille/soprafino clone deck. I also own the Crystal tarot but I always get the feeling of it being a Thoth clone but I don't think it is, its just the feeling I get off it.

Rusty Neon	11 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Emily I'm not attracted to the woodcut style of the marseille decks but I do have 3 Soprafino decks - the Ancient Italian and the Classic tarots are Lo Scarabeo decks. The pip minors are very pretty, they use the same design as the traditional marseille deck but the artwork is drawn. Although various people may prefer the Italian designs and artwork, the pip card designs of the LS Ancient Italian Tarot are different from (and less varied from card to card than) the pip card designs of the Tarot de Marseille deck (Conver pattern). See my first post on this thread.

Bean Feasa	11 Nov 2003
Dear Tarot friends, Thank you all so much for taking the time to give such helpful advice - I realise I've got a lot to ponder here. Will spend my lunch-hour browsing - looking forward to it. I'll let you know how I get on. blessings, Kate.

lark	11 Nov 2003
What do you think of the Marseilles deck offered by U.S. Games System? Item #1803 ISBN 0-913866-60-1 Camoin and Conver interest me but they seem like they would be hard to get.

Diana	11 Nov 2003
Lark: they're very easy to get hold of!

firestorm	11 Nov 2003
Care to elaborate? I've heard that they're hard to get in the U.S.

Bean Feasa	11 Nov 2003
I'm afraid I still find the look of the traditional Marseille decks a bit austere, though the warmth of the colours in the Fournier edition is quite attractive. Don't think that's available from Amazon though, which is where I usually buy. Having said that, I do realise even in the short time I've spent learning about Tarot that you can't predict from looking at images on the web how you'll react when you actually hold the cards in your hand. I'm leaning towards the one Lee mentioned (cheers Lee!) the Art of Tarot partly because I like the look of it and partly because it seems reasonable in price. It might give me the chance to see how myself and the Marseilles style will get along without breaking the bank. Also I'm almost sure I spotted it in a bookshop near here - going to drop in on the way home from work to see if I'm right. It's a relatively novel experience for me to buy the old-fashioned way. Good luck to all the rest of you in your search, and keep posting. best wishes, Kate

Moongold	11 Nov 2003
Bean Feasa, I bought the Conver but apart from a new deck reading, which ws very positive, I have not been able to read with it yet. It is quite attractive to look at and to hold but I need quiet, and an uncluttered mind to read with it. I think. I would like to know more about Marseilles decks as well. Thank you for the link to the Hadar site. Marseilles are not that easy to buy in shops here but this was on the shelf at Borders. I am glad that I purchased it spontaneously.

firestorm	11 Nov 2003
Thank you so much for the Hadar website link, Mimers. It's exactly what I need.

Shade	11 Nov 2003
How about the Nigel Jackso or The Old English Tarot? Both have a marseilles feel as most of the minor arcana card is taken up by an arrangement of swords/wands etc but on th ebottom i s a small, simple illustration to help you out.

lark	11 Nov 2003
I have both of those decks I don't know why I didn't think of them. I have the Art of Tarot too. Ah to many tarot decks and not enough brain cells.

Diana	11 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firestorm Thank you so much for the Hadar website link, Mimers. It's exactly what I need. Well then you also need a Hadar deck! :) As to your question as where to get hold of a Conver deck or a Camoin, I don't know where you can get hold of them in the States. But if you have any problems getting hold of one, let me know and I am sure we can come to some arrangement. But I'm sure you could get hold of what you want from Tarot Garden.

jmd	11 Nov 2003
Regarding lark's question about the Tarot of Marseille published by USGames, though I do not have it in this packaging, I strongly suspect it is the Marteau/Grimaud version, which is a good 'standard' deck - though I would personally opt for one of the three others and I have previously mentioned: the Camoin ; Hadar ; or, errr... I mean and Conver . As variously mentioned, and though some of the suprafinos are wonderful and beautiful decks, they also, from an esoteric perspective, lack some of the more traditional symbolism. Another one which is very Marseille-like is the one marketed by US Games as Tarot Classic, a Schaffhouse deck, very nice indeed, but which also as small detailed variations from the Marseille (such as having the Hanged Man's two legs roped together, rather than the form of the letter Lamed being formed by the left foot only being tied). Whichever is obtained, two considerations need to be taken, in my view. The first is that the deck actually be true to the Marseille depictions - or many of the internal aspects will be lost. The second is to handle it regularly and give it time to reveal its wonders.

Rusty Neon	11 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jmd Regarding lark's question about the Tarot of Marseille published by USGames, though I do not have it in this packaging, I strongly suspect it is the Marteau/Grimaud version, which is a good 'standard' deck - though I would personally opt for one of the three others and I have previously mentioned: [list] [*] the Camoin ; Whereas the Marteau and Grimaud versions of the Tarot de Marseille are based on the Conver pattern of the TdM, I understand that the US Games "Tarot of Marseilles" is loosely based on the Dodal pattern of the TdM, rather than on the Conver pattern of the TdM. I once looked through a sample of the US Games deck at the store and I noticed that it wasn't Conver patterned. http://www.usgamesinc.com/tarot/viewProduct.cfm?Product_ID=384

Lee	11 Nov 2003
As Rusty Neon says, the USGames Marseilles deck is not a Marteau/Grimaud style. It's actually quite ugly, the lines drawn more harshly and cartoonish than other Marseilles decks. I would not recommend it. You can order the Camoin deck online from Camoin's site in France, but be warned, it may take several weeks to get to the States. The Hadar deck can be ordered from R. Somerville in Great Britain (although he actually mails them from France). I ordered it from Somerville and was very pleased with their service. I'm sorry I don't have the web addresses for these right now, but you can find them by searching the net or by searching Aeclectic for past posts that provide links. The Camoin has bright, cheery colors, but also has unfortunate (IMHO) "esoteric" additional details that don't (IMHO) belong there. My particular favorite is the Hadar, which has softer, deeper colors than the Camoin, not as bright as the Camoin but (IMHO) more satisfying, and without the liberties taken by the Camoin. Just to be clear, the Art of Tarot and Beginner's Tarot decks are not Marseilles decks, but are nice to work with if one is looking for a non-illustrated-pip deck as opposed to a Marseilles. -- Lee

Cerulean	11 Nov 2003
http://www.villarevak.org/phdt/phdt_qz.html This is their "Tarot Classic" based on Claude Burdel 1851 patterns. http://www.tarot.com/about-tarot/decks/browsedecks.php?newdeck=65 The colors are pretty and supposedly their Classic Tarot is what influenced the designer of the New Century Tarot. To be honest, I bought the Tarot Classic when I bought the New Century, because it did have pretty colors. I don't know whether the coloring is authentic...there's a name "Claude Burdel" that comes to mind...I'll check for affiliations. To be honest, I thought it had something to do with Swiss patterns... The Convers by Lo Scarabeo might more old world in feel, especially since it has flaws reproduced. If you backtrack on the link, you can see scans of U.S. Game's Angel Tarot and their "Tarot de Marseilles" that everyone else seems to think is rather florid...I would say horrid, but it may work for some. U.S. Games also has an Angel Tarot, a newer reproduction with a limited palette. The olive, brown, yellow and limited use of red might be attractive to you, but it's a modern version. I don't like their title that just says "Marseille" because I think the coloring has a strange effect on me. I just don't prefer it. But I have first choice, the Italian decks, the Convers, an 1830 reproduced Epinal and a modern recolored Fournier, so my tastes can be considered more liking variants than what people posted as 'classic." for the Marseilles. I do like the Burdel and Epinal for comparisons... Mari

Rusty Neon	11 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Lee The Camoin has bright, cheery colors, but also has unfortunate (IMHO) "esoteric" additional details that don't (IMHO) belong there. My particular favorite is the Hadar, which has softer, deeper colors than the Camoin, not as bright as the Camoin but (IMHO) more satisfying, and without the liberties taken by the Camoin. Actually, Hadar also took liberties with his version of the Conver pattern by adding certain details to certain cards. (See my posts and those of others on one of the Hadar threads.)

Lee	12 Nov 2003
Here's an inexpensive Marseilles deck, readily available in the U.S., and comes with a book too: http://www.tarotpassages.com/TarotSet-mf.htm -- Lee

lark	12 Nov 2003
That was a great site and 12.95 wow! I also didn't realize that LoScarabeo has a deck of Marseillies-Conver that I could easily get. Seeing the prints compared was very interesting. I love stuff like that. Thanks again.

Cerulean	12 Nov 2003
That Thunder Bay press edition looks great! I do have the Lo Scarabeo Convers and it's fine for the faded age... But the Thunder Bay version seems much more workable and also gives some age impression without the distracting flaws. The Camoin Bicentennial version with interesting colors also looks beautiful, especially if it has matte stock. Thanks, it looks like a fun stocking stuffer. Mari H.

firestorm	12 Nov 2003
You're right. I need the Hadar one too. I went to the Somerville site that Lee suggested and ordered the Hadar and Camoin.....and to think I was trying to be good! ;-)

firestorm	12 Nov 2003
I really appreciate all the information!

Bean Feasa	13 Nov 2003
I second that. I still haven't taken the plunge - but now have lots to think about - I often think the anticipation of a deck is the best part. Btw, JMD I read your account of using the cards to decide which car to take and found it absolutely fascinating - a great insight on using unillustrated pips.

Bean Feasa	13 Nov 2003
Sorry, think I was being a bit incoherent there. Jmd's story of using the cards to choose which car isn't on this thread it's here: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19000 Blessings, Kate

Moongold	13 Nov 2003
Kate, What does Bean Feasa mean? I have just been considering my first reading with the Conver Marseilles - a simple three card spread about a legal and industrial issue. For some reason, I was impelled to a very simple spread. And looking at these quaint anachronistic figures, all apparently related going on facial similarities, I feel that I have been less distracted from the issues in the question than I would have been with other decks. So there is a kind of simple purity here. Somehow that is important to say.

felicityk	14 Nov 2003
I put together a little comparison of available Marseilles decks a while ago. I'm limited to what pictures I could glean from various dealers' sites, but it might be helpful to those trying to choose: http://home.comcast.net/~felicityk/tarot/marseilles/index.html I'll add the Thunder Bay Press edition when I get a chance. Also, several of these decks can be viewed at a French site: http://membres.lycos.fr/tarobat/mesjeux/Jeux.htm Felicity

null	15 Nov 2003
I own the Thunder Bay Press "The Tarot Set", and it was a big disappointment for me. The cards are indeed very beautiful, but the stock is bad, very flimsy. Really sad, because visually I like the deck quite a lot. But it was the book that was the biggest disappointment. It's very RWS-centered, and not at all what I was looking for. It lists Strength as 8, Justice as 11, even when the image of the Marseilles card is pictured right on the page. In the "minor arcana" section, only RWS images are shown. I was really hoping for (and expecting, as this was a set) a Marseilles-based book. Anyway, if you like the look of the deck, it's an OK deal at $12.95 US, if you're aware of and alright with the bad cardstock. PS: felicityk, nice site!

lark	15 Nov 2003
Felicityk! What a wonderful thing you've done. I love to comparison shop. Thank-you for posting it.

Bean Feasa	18 Nov 2003
Hey Moongold, Sorry, I've been offline for three or four days - only have time for a quick glance at the boards right now, but I noticed you were wondering what my name meant. This should explain: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15708&perpage=10&highlight=yaboot&pagenumber=8 Gotta go, talk to you all soon. blessings, Kate, XX

The A question for all you Marseilles afficionados thread was originally posted on 10 Nov 2003 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.