IJJ Swiss Deck
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 18 Dec 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| Magick Rainbow |
18 Dec 2003 |
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Hi,
I hope this is the right forum to post this, if not I apologise.
I wanted to know if anyone is learning or reads the IJJ Swiss deck, as this is the deck I am learning with.
I collected it with a weekly magazine I buy and I do feel drawn to it, although I do want to go out and buy a deck that I can choose that talks to me.
What are your opinions on the IJJ Swiss deck?
I have looked in this forum but can't see any posts on this deck, if there is a post/thread on the IJJ Swiss deck please direct me to it.
Thank you.
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| Diana |
18 Dec 2003 |
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I don't know anyone on the forum who uses this deck. However, it is very similar to the Marseilles decks, so perhaps some of the threads in the Historical section could help you.
If you have any specific questions or comments, please go ahead and post them.
I have this deck so perhaps your questions would encourage me to know it better!
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| Le_Corsair |
18 Dec 2003 |
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I have the deck, also. It is supposed to be the deck that first sparked Stuart Kaplan's interest in tarot. I love the way that the majors are drawn, especially Key 13, Death. If you look carefully at the pelvis area of the card you are supposed to see an animal or demon of some sort; to me it looks like a boxer dog. I dislike the colors of the deck.
Truthfully, I bought the deck for the Death card. Ha!
The "JJ" in the name refers to the Juno and Jupiter cards.
If you are a total newcomer to tarot, probably the best bet is to acquire a Rider-Waite deck (called RWS here) of some type, or a similar deck, usually referred to as a "clone." Most tarot books for beginners are illustrated with the Rider-Waite deck. Two good choices for RWS decks are the Radiant Rider-Waite and the Universal Waite. The Standard Rider-Waite in the yellow box is poorly colored and has atrocious backs (if you care about such things).
Welcome to Aeclectic, by the way!
Bob :THERM
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| Diana |
19 Dec 2003 |
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Originally posted by Le_Corsair
If you are a total newcomer to tarot, probably the best bet is to acquire a Rider-Waite deck (called RWS here) of some type, or a similar deck, usually referred to as a "clone."
If you are a totaal newcomer to tarot, probably the best bet is to acquire a Tarot of Marseilles deck. (The so-called non-illustrated pips leave the mind more open and one doesn't get fixated on the pictures as one does in Rider-Waite kind of decks.)
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| Umbrae |
19 Dec 2003 |
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The Swiss IJJ is a great starter deck - the non-illustrated pips allow for a truer 'learning' of tarot, as opposed to parroting pictorial implications prevelant in RWS clones.
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| Moonbow* |
19 Dec 2003 |
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Hi Magick Rainbow
I have the jj. I bought it recently along with a Marseilles deck (better Marseilles deck on its way - sooo excited). I haven't used it yet - not sure the quality of card is very good on mine - it was secondhand though, and seems a bit old.
As someone new to un-illustrated minors I see similarities with the Marseilles although strickly speaking I believe it isn't considered one. I think the vines/flowers on it and some of the colouring is great though. I think you'll be happy with it once you get to know it better.
Moonbow*
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| Magick Rainbow |
19 Dec 2003 |
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Thank you for all your replies, I am planning to get some more decks in. I will look out for those that have been mentioned.
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| mercenary30 |
19 Dec 2003 |
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I have this deck. I also have the hard cover book that was sold seperatly from the deck. It is defined very similarly to Marseilles and can be learned that way.
I have done a few readings with this deck, and I find it quite readable.
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| Kiama |
19 Dec 2003 |
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Originally posted by Umbrae
The Swiss IJJ is a great starter deck - the non-illustrated pips allow for a truer 'learning' of tarot, as opposed to parroting pictorial implications prevelant in RWS clones.
I disagree: I think that if you're a beginner, it is easiest to start off with a deck that has illustrated Minors: they are easier to read, remember, and get used to. I also think they spark the intuition alot better than unillustrated Minors.
The 1JJ in my opinion, is good if you are a more advanced reader and want to 'forget' the meanings you have learned 'by rote' from another deck, but hopefully if you keep your mind open, even with an illustrated deck you will be able to keep meanings flexible.
(Personally, I also think the 1JJ Swiss is ugly as hell, and useless for reading for others: I like to get the querent to look at the cards and say what they see in them. Being faced with simply a bunch of swords, to the person who has only encountered Tarot for the first time during that reading, isn't very helpful at all. On the other hand, to be confronted with a scene with people in it doing things, they may find themselves able to apply the card to their life.)
Just an opinion. As you can tell, there are many other opinions here! (That's the beauty of Aeclectic!) :D
Kiama
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| mercenary30 |
19 Dec 2003 |
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Originally posted by Kiama
I like to get the querent to look at the cards and say what they see in them. Being faced with simply a bunch of swords, to the person who has only encountered Tarot for the first time during that reading, isn't very helpful at all.
Kiama [/b]
I agree with Kiama on this point. I do not use decks without illustrated minors to do a reading with the querent right there. I do like using them when I am doing email readings.....they really force me to contemplate.
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| full deck |
19 Dec 2003 |
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It worked well enough for me. I used it for a number of years without using another.
I don't usually have the person I read for interpret cards for me either. I feel that method is more like a pyschological test for them, rather than a means for me to see, thus asking the querant (in my case) is not appropriate.
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| Diana |
19 Dec 2003 |
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Originally posted by Kiama
I like to get the querent to look at the cards and say what they see in them.
I don't like my querents to do their own readings. They are not objective enough.
If one learns "meanings" of Tarot cards by pictures, those pictures will stick in your mind for the rest of your life. To me, it's a terrible shame to learn Tarot that way. It stunts one's learning.
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| Diana |
19 Dec 2003 |
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Just wanted to add one thing.
People often say "start learning with a RWS deck, or a deck with pictorial minors - it's EASIER to learn with it."
Is "easy" a valid reason? Methinks not. It's like saying to someone: If you want to learn to cook, buy yourself some frozen pizza and heat it up in the oven or microwave. It's "easier" to learn that way.
If someone chooses to learn with the RWS or a clone or a similar deck, then I would hope that the reason is not because it's "easier".
Instant gratification does not really satisfy one's soul for long, although I know that it has become a very popular way of life, especially in the Western world. :(
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| Magick Rainbow |
19 Dec 2003 |
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Thank you all for your replies, I do like the IJJ Swiss deck and I do admit that the pip cards are confusing, but I know with practise and study I can learn them.
I feel very drawn to Tarot and feel like it is my main focus right now.
I will take on everything that has been said, I have already found this site very helpful. Thank you all and Merry Christmas!
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| Le_Corsair |
19 Dec 2003 |
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Originally posted by Diana
Is "easy" a valid reason? Methinks not. It's like saying to someone: If you want to learn to cook, buy yourself some frozen pizza and heat it up in the oven or microwave. It's "easier" to learn that way.
True, but to put someone who has never cooked before into a professional kitchen and tell them "Well, have at it!" isn't likely to result in a souffle', no matter how talented the person. :D
Bob :THERM
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| zorya |
19 Dec 2003 |
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i learned with the 1jj swiss and am very glad i did because it is a deck with un-illustrated pips.
i had to learn what the suits mean. i had to learn numerology. there is no need for a little white book with that kind of background.
yes, you probably can read 'faster' with illustrated pips, but not necessarily better. in my opinion, the illustrations bias the interpretations, thereby narrowing ones perceptions. it is hard to look at a card with swords sticking in a person and see that there is a positive side to the card.
if you learn on a deck with un-illustrated pips, you will be able to read any deck, illustrated or not, including playing cards.
illustrations can be a crutch that is very, very hard to let go of.
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| Umbrae |
19 Dec 2003 |
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Behold! The Mouthpiece of Ooolatek the Seditious One Who Tells Only Lies is about to speak. Tremble ye heretics!
I’ve often said in one way or another, that there is divination, and then there is divination.
Some people use the artist bias in illustrations as a standard for their interpretations. Often, those readings are spooky in their accuracy.
Some people use numerology, in combination with card suits. Often, those readings are spooky in their accuracy.
Some people use nothing. They use Tarot as a tool for (gathering) some kind of vision, or information from ‘nowhere’. Often, those readings are spooky in their accuracy.
Some people use combination of all of the above. Often, those readings are spooky in their accuracy.
Some people find artist bias gets in the way of their interpretation.
Some people can read cookbooks all their life, practice in the kitchen for years, and never figure out how to make a good hard-boiled egg that peels well.
It’s important when you are new, to ask yourself a couple of questions.
The most important in my opinion, is why do you read. The answer has a lot to do with what kind of approach you will chose. If you don’t know why you read – you may choose poorly.
Above entrance of the Oracle at Delphi, were the words – “Know thyself”. Such words should still be heeded.
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| jmd |
19 Dec 2003 |
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As this thread already shows, there are various views on both the deck and on what may be considered a good deck to begin reading with.
Regarding the 1jj, I personally don't mind it, though I prefer a deck which has the Papess (High Priestess) and the Pope (Hierophant) rather than Juno & Jupiter.
Still, the 1jj is, in my opinion, a good deck to begin with - and especially so if it appeals to you!
With regards to scenically illustrated pips, they have an advantage for beginners in being able to easily see a scene (it is, after all, depicted there for the reader!). This is an argument which has been presented many-a-time, and will probably continue to be held as correct by a significant number of people, especially those who happened to have learned Tarot last century given the dominance of this deck and books which used it as 'the' Tarot.
Personally, however, it seems to me that learning with a deck without scenes upon the pips has many advantages both in the short term and in the long term. In the short term, one has to listen more attentively to those inner inspirations which arise as one develops the narrative of the spread. In the long term, one is not forever inadvertantly imagining Waite or Colman Smith's personal views as to what, to use an example, the ten of Swords is all about!
The way Kiama uses the cards (at times), by asking the readee to explain what they see in the cards is, in my view, a legitimate usage of a deck. This can also be done, however, with the 1jj. Whether or not all calls it a reading will depend on whether a 'reading' is divination by the reader or divination (and I incorporate 'psychological' seership here) by the person who comes for the reading.
Enjoy the deck... it has its own wonderful charms :)
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| Le_Corsair |
19 Dec 2003 |
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Ok, Magick Rainbow, the next questions you should ask are:
1. Which is the best deck for reading?
2. Does the Death card really mean death?
3. Should I use reversals?
4. Which book should I buy to learn with?
5. What is this Ooolatek stuff about?
(well, that should keep things lively around here!) :D :joke: :laugh:
Bob :THERM
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| Lee |
19 Dec 2003 |
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For me, illustrated pips have other benefits than simply reminding the reader of the cards' interpretations.
Often I find that specific details in the pictures will leap out at me as being uncannily (or spookily, as the Seditious One would say) relevant to the question or the questioner at hand. This allows elements to enter into the reading which I would never have thought of if I had simply been relying on unillustrated pips. This is because the details on the illustrations are specific things, which serve to remind the reader's subconscious of other things, or of associations with thoughts, feelings and memories. I find that I don't get that same effect when I read with unillustrated pips. Of course unillustrated pip decks still have illustrations on the trumps and courts, but having them also on the pips greatly increases this effect. And the specific elements and details on the illustrated pips tend to relate more to everyday life and everyday actions, unlike the trumps and courts which are more iconic.
It seems to me that whether one reads with illustrated or unillustrated, many times the way one learned at first is the way one will feel more comfortable with, and one can't even imagine how folks could read the other way. I first learned on illustrated decks, but I've experimented for years with reading with unillustrated ones. I can get very good readings with unillustrated decks, but it never feels as comfortable or as deep as the readings I get with the illustrated decks. And I'm sure many folks who read with unillustrated decks feel the same way (that is, that if they read with illustrated decks, the readings aren't as comfortable or as deep as using unillustrated ones).
And it's not because I'm using them as a crutch. After 25 years of reading, I think I wouldn't really need a crutch.
-- Lee
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| Magick Rainbow |
20 Dec 2003 |
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Originally posted by Le_Corsair
Ok, Magick Rainbow, the next questions you should ask are:
1. Which is the best deck for reading?
2. Does the Death card really mean death?
3. Should I use reversals?
4. Which book should I buy to learn with?
5. What is this Ooolatek stuff about?
(well, that should keep things lively around here!) :D :joke: :laugh:
Bob :THERM
Hi Bob,
These are great questions and just what I am looking to answers for. I know Death doesn't mean death, but I am not quite sure what it means. So your answers will be appreciated :D
Thanks to all for your replies, I think I will stick with the IJJ deck I do have another deck by Jonathan Dee, It was a cheap deck that came with a small book, it also has unillustrated pip cards.
Merry Christmas!
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| Emily |
20 Dec 2003 |
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Hi Magick Rainbow,
I also collect the weekly magazine you mention, it was nice to see the 1JJ Swiss reprint in English, I have the older unlaminated French version.
If this is the kind of deck that seems to speak to you then stick with it. There are many on this forum that have learn't and only use a Marseille type deck. But if you wanted a deck that was a little prettier but not the woodcut art of a Marseille then there are some decks that follow the Marseille symbolism but are called Soprafino decks, these include the Ancient Italian and Classical tarot by Lo Scarabeo, available on Amazon Uk.
If you learn with a pip minor deck then you'll be able to read with just about anything. Maybe later you'll move onto illustrated pips but you'll have a firm foundation with pips minors.
I tried to learn with the 1JJ Swiss but found the art work of the deck not to my liking, I do however like the other Soprafino decks. :)
Edited to add:-
If you like the style of Jonathon Dee's writing then he also wrote a book illustrated with the Ancient Italian, can't remember the name of it but its a good book, starts you off in numerology, grouping cards together, the paperback version is purple and has cards from the Ancient Italian on the front.
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| Jewel-ry |
20 Dec 2003 |
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Yes, I have this book. Its called 'Tarot - An illustrated guide by Jonathan Dee ISBN 1-85605-685-6. I got mine for £2.99 at one of those cheap book shops.
J :OS
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| Emily |
20 Dec 2003 |
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Thats it Jewel-ry , lol - Couldn't remember the name, too lazy to pop upstairs to see lol :)
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| MeeWah |
20 Dec 2003 |
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As one who first learned to read with a regular playing deck of cards, I am interested in getting more acquainted with non-illustrated pip decks. I have been curious about the IJJ Swiss, so I hope to look into the IJJ Swiss Deck as well as the Marseilles decks (though it likely will not be until 2004). Also plan to do the same with the Thoth. Thus far, the only non-illustrated pip deck I have used is the Sasha Fenton Tarot. A brightly coloured deck with lively images, it does not contain the details nor symbolism of the RWS.
Where Tarot is concerned, possible to apply whatever reading background to decks other than the familliar.
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| Moonbow* |
20 Dec 2003 |
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This thread has made me want to get my 1JJ deck out - So much to read and so little time to do it in.............
Moonbow*
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| Khatruman |
20 Dec 2003 |
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It is interesting to see some material on the 1JJ Swiss (still wondering what the "1" stands for, which many people see as an "I"). I have had this deck for nigh on 20 years and haven't really used it. Would be interesting to see more about it written.
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| firestorm |
21 Dec 2003 |
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Originally posted by Le_Corsair
Ok, Magick Rainbow, the next questions you should ask are:
1. Which is the best deck for reading?
2. Does the Death card really mean death?
3. Should I use reversals?
4. Which book should I buy to learn with?
5. What is this Ooolatek stuff about?
(well, that should keep things lively around here!) :D :joke: :laugh:
Bob :THERM
That's what I like, LeCorsair, a person with nerve. :D May I add?
6. Should Strength be 8 or 11?
;)
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| jmd |
21 Dec 2003 |
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Oowwww... Le_Corsair and firestorm, these are the simple questions ;)'1. Which is the best deck for reading?' the Marseille; ...next!'2. Does the Death card really mean death?' Yes... the Death of any situation at hand :); ...next!'3. Should I use reversals?' But of course... why limit yourself :D; next!'4. Which book should I buy to learn with?' err.... next!'5. What is this Ooolatek stuff about?' ask Umbrae :) next!'6. Should Strength be 8 or 11?' Strength is eleven... and thus it 'should' be (though some decks apparently get their ordering confulscated) :D next!
...what, no more?
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| Kiama |
22 Dec 2003 |
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Originally posted by Lee
For me, illustrated pips have other benefits than simply reminding the reader of the cards' interpretations.
Often I find that specific details in the pictures will leap out at me as being uncannily (or spookily, as the Seditious One would say) relevant to the question or the questioner at hand. This allows elements to enter into the reading which I would never have thought of if I had simply been relying on unillustrated pips. This is because the details on the illustrations are specific things , which serve to remind the reader's subconscious of other things, or of associations with thoughts, feelings and memories. I find that I don't get that same effect when I read with unillustrated pips. Of course unillustrated pip decks still have illustrations on the trumps and courts, but having them also on the pips greatly increases this effect. And the specific elements and details on the illustrated pips tend to relate more to everyday life and everyday actions, unlike the trumps and courts which are more iconic.
Edited for brevity...
And it's not because I'm using them as a crutch. After 25 years of reading, I think I wouldn't really need a crutch.
-- Lee
I would have said this, had I paid more attention and replied sooner! (As it is, Lee says it better than I could!)
I would just like to add that I see a disadvantage in using non-illustrated pips like those in the 1JJ Swiss, in that they did not allow me to interpret freely: I was always forced to memorise the card meanings, and memorising them meant I had no flexibility in my readings.
This is not the fault of the deck. It is simply that different peoples' minds work in different ways. This is why some are drawn to Runes rather than Tarot, and some prefer Mathematics to Poetry. My mind works on symbolism, blatant symbolism at that, which I can interpret one way for one reading, and another way for a totally different reading, depending on the querent, their questions, etc etc.
Diana: You throw around the word 'crutch' alot. I would normally be offended if somebody accused me of using a crutch simply because I look at pictures to gain meaning. However I believe that whether we use illustrated or non-illustrated pips, nearly all of us use a crutch in our readings: some of us use the pictures as a 'crutch' to help us find the meanings hidden in the cards. Some of us use numerology to do so. Some of us use our memorised lists of keywords for each card. Some of us use just our minds and imagination. But all are crutches. 'Crutch' is not a bad word, and I do not see what is wrong with using them at all: they are aids. And I freely admit that I need a helluva lot of aids in a reading: I'm not psychic. I'm very rarely intuitive, though I try damn hard to be. I cannot look at seven prettily decorated cups and see a plethora of meanings and the whole of the querent's problem stretched out before my eyes. I need images, symbols I can go by. That's the way my mind works.
Zorya: Just because one uses illustrated pips doesn't mean one does not study deeply the cards. I have studied numerology, despite not really needing to use it with illustrated pips. Every now and then I find it crops up as useful in a reading. I have also learned what the suits mean, though I did not need to necessarily. It's called Tarot study, and everybody who wants to go beyond simple fortune-telling with Tarot should do it, regardless of the deck they use. :D
The other advantage to illustrated Minors is that each deck is so different, and the difference between decks allows you to exapd your understanding of each card, expand your understanding of what makes humans tick, and what their relation to the rest of the Universe is. Sadly, I do not get this kind of insight with non-illustrated Pips.
So, there's my reasons for using illustrated Minors. Others will undoubtedly feel I am misguided (I'm young: I most probably am! })) and that they do not agree with what I have said. That's fine. Each to their own. Different minds work in different ways, need different crutches, and interpret pictures differently.
I happen to rather like illustrated Pips. But one should not judge the value or competance of a Tarot reader based on what kind of Minors they use.
Kiama
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| Diana |
22 Dec 2003 |
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Originally posted by Kiama
Diana: You throw around the word 'crutch' alot.
Kiama: I was quite surprised to see this. So I wondered if I wrote stuff without realising the words I use. I did a search with my name and the word "crutch". It came up only once in an old Spirituality thread started by Ramses (dear old Ramses :) ), which is now in the Forum Archives. So I did a search with "crutches" (plural). Nothing came up.
Either I don't know how to use the Search feature properly, or else you are mixing me up with someone else.
I don't remember anyone on these forums who judges people's competence with the type of deck they use. The person whose Tarot readings have helped me advance by giant steps (I order them from time to time through the Aeclectic web-site), is MeeWah. She uses decks with illustrated minors - if my memory serves me well, she uses the Robin Wood very often.
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| zorya |
22 Dec 2003 |
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Originally posted by zorya
i learned with the 1jj swiss and am very glad i did because it is a deck with un-illustrated pips.
i had to learn what the suits mean. i had to learn numerology. there is no need for a little white book with that kind of background.
yes, you probably can read 'faster' with illustrated pips, but not necessarily better. in my opinion, the illustrations bias the interpretations, thereby narrowing ones perceptions. it is hard to look at a card with swords sticking in a person and see that there is a positive side to the card.
if you learn on a deck with un-illustrated pips, you will be able to read any deck, illustrated or not, including playing cards.
illustrations can be a crutch that is very, very hard to let go of.
i've quoted my entire post, as my opinion seems to have offended a couple of people.
kiama, i was the one who used the word 'crutch', not diana, although i am flattered that it was she you confused me with. this is, as far as i recall, the first time i have ever used the word at the forum. in my post, the word crutch, is preceeded by the words 'can be', not will be! "illustrations can be a crutch...."
lee, i started with the 1jj swiss, back in the early 70's i think (may have been late 60's), and no longer have the deck. many of the decks i use do have illustrated pips. but.. i thought we were talking about learning to read, not about experienced readers.
you said, " And it's not because I'm using them as a crutch. After 25 years of reading, I think I wouldn't really need a crutch."
where do i say i think you are using them as a crutch or that all people who started with illustrated pips use them or continue to use them as a crutch? :confused: the word i used was can!
think maybe i should stay below the line :(
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| jmd |
22 Dec 2003 |
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As parts of this thread have much to commend it in relation to a general discussion on Tarot, I'll continue the discussion in Talking Tarot, in a new thread I have just started::):):)
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| Mimers |
23 Dec 2003 |
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Wow, I love this place, I truely do! I just want to say that I think everyone here has very valid points. I could also comment my opinions, but it would be repetitive. There is just one comment I would like to make concerning this:
Originally posted by Diana
I don't like my querents to do their own readings. They are not objective enough.
Diana was refering to a tecnique some use when reading for another of asking the querant how they feel about a certain card.
I don't think this is asking the querant to do their own reading and I also feel it is actually a very good way to get feedback from your querent. The main purpose of the reading is to help the querent deal with issues.It really doesn't matter how this is accomplished. I have done this before in readings or sometimes the querent just goes ahead and comments without me asking. Noticing a specific detail about a card right away. I have found this very useful in helping the querent get to the root of things or finding out what the real issue is. There is nothing wrong with this at all.
Mimi
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| Lee |
23 Dec 2003 |
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Originally posted by zorya
you said, " And it's not because I'm using them as a crutch. After 25 years of reading, I think I wouldn't really need a crutch."
where do i say i think you are using them as a crutch or that all people who started with illustrated pips use them or continue to use them as a crutch? :confused: the word i used was can !
think maybe i should stay below the line :( Dear zoyra, it is quite true that you did not say that all people who started with illustrated pips use them or continue to use them as a crutch. However, it is also quite true that I never said you did! :) I was merely saying that I don't feel I use them as a crutch.
As Kiama points out in this and other threads, I think the crux of the matter here is that reading with pips and reading with non-illustrated pips are two fundamentally different types of reading, one neither better nor worse than the other. Anything can be a crutch. For some, reading with non-illustrated pips might be a crutch. I was merely pointing to myself as an example (in my usual modest way!) of someone who started out reading with illustrated pips, and ended up reading with illustrated pips, and doesn't seem to have suffered any ill effects from it.
Please don't stay below the line! :)
-- Lee
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The IJJ Swiss Deck thread was originally posted on 18 Dec 2003 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.
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