LS Switched Justice and Strength

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 24 Dec 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Shade	24 Dec 2003
I had read in a few threads that the Justice and Strength cards in the Witchy Tarot and Gothic Tarot of Vampires by Lo Scarabeo had been mislabeled. So a question for anyone who reads with these decks: What do you do about that? Has anyone contaced LS? Any news on reprints? When you read with the decks do you just make the switch and read the picture that looks like Justice as Justice regardless of the title? edit: I do realize that many decks make different choices about the numbering of justice and strength but had heard that the cards in these decks have a picture taht is clearly justice and called it strength. Just thought I'd add taht before I was corrected.

Diana	24 Dec 2003
Shade: That is very weird indeed. I wonder if this is the case in all the decks. I think Lo Scarabeo decks normally put Justice as VIII and Strength as XI, but how come they mixed up the pictures? :confused:

lunalafey	24 Dec 2003
luna digs into to her can of decks and pulls al the LS decks out my LS Fey deck- VIII Strength- has a Fey dressed in catskin jungle suit- and has control over 2 green serpants- the image reminds my of Jack and the Bean Stalk.... XI Justice- has a blind baby Fey, with a third eye facepaint. Her hands are extended and a glowing feather floats in the air between. they got the images right on the new vision {RWS rev. view} VIII- Strength XI- Justice tarot of the origins goes off on it own thing with VIII-Abundance XI-Creative Power Egyptian- VIII- Justice- has a woman seated with a long curved sword in one hand and a set of scales in another {venus & cancer symbols among the hyrogliphs} XI- Strength (though it's spelled strenght) has a standing woman holding a lions mouth.....mars is the symbol here..... well- that's quite a mix.....but it seems 'straight' even when switched.... all I have are 4 LS decks and that's not enough.....

Shade	25 Dec 2003
I've only heard it was switched in the Vampires and Witchy Tarot

Umbrae	25 Dec 2003
There are two ‘schools’ of Tarot. The English School, and the French School. Decks which are Waite Clones (RWS) number Strength as 8 and Justice as 11. French (or European) School decks number them as Strength 11 and Justice 8. This is because A.E. Waite chose to re-number the Majors without telling anybody ‘why’. Lo Scarabeo uses the French (or European) numbering. In reading an interview with Riccardo Minetti of Lo Scarabeo, he stated, “While the Rider-Waite is probably still the best single deck one may work with, it is working like an anchor, slowing down any evolution of the concept of Tarot. Every time a deck tries to go in a different direction, it is labeled as "wrong." You would be surprised to learn how many complaints we receive from North America, from people saying: "that deck is printed wrong, as Justice is 8 and Strength is 11. I want a copy that is printed right." In my opinion, Lo Scarabeo does it right.

Diana	25 Dec 2003
Umbrae: That still doesn't explain why the picture on the decks Shade is talking about depicts Strength, but is called Justice, and vice-versa. If I understand correctly, it's as if there is a picture that would be someone conquering a Lion, but it's called Justice, and there's a picture of someone holding Justice scales but it's called Strength. That quote from that interview is most interesting. Thanks a million for sharing it. Where can I read this interview?

Le_Corsair	25 Dec 2003
Could it possibly be that Lo Scab was so flustered about which market to cater to (European or US) that they screwed the deck up? :D Bob :THERM

Lee	25 Dec 2003
Diana is correct, it appears that for those two decks, the cards have been misnumbered. The interview Umbrae refers to can be seen here: http://www.tarotgarden.com/library/articles/lsinterview.html -- Lee

Darla	25 Dec 2003
I have the Gothic Vampires Tarot and I just corrected the descriptions in the LWB. There they describe the Chariot with number 7 and then they go on with Justice numbered 11. After the Wheel 10 it says Strength 8. So basically now I read Justice as 8 and Strength as 11 and the pictures match the descriptions. I guess it is just a misprint in the LWB.

Umbrae	25 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Umbrae: That still doesn't explain why the picture on the decks Shade is talking about depicts Strength, but is called Justice, and vice-versa. The CARDS, in the Gothic Tarot of Vampires are not, mislabled.

Lee	25 Dec 2003
Umbrae has jogged my memory. Here, I think, is the situation: In the Gothic Tarot of Vampires, there are no card titles, only numbers. So technically, the cards are not mislabeled. It's only in the LWB that the cards are misidentified. In the Witchy deck, I believe the cards are actually mislabeled. -- Lee

Shade	26 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Lee In the Witchy deck, I believe the cards are actually mislabeled. -- Lee Whew, ok thought I had made a mistake. So in the Vampre deck (I don't own it yet) it sounds like it's not really a problem bt i think it would bother me about the Witchy Tarot. I suppose I would just interpret the picture ratehr than the title.

Umbrae	26 Dec 2003
The Gothic Tarot of Vampires Cards are not Mislabled. Neither is the book mislabled. Get out your LWB and turn to page 6-7. On page 6, the bottom of the page is VII - Chariot. At the top of page 7 we find XI - Justice with the correct interpretation for the deck. It is followed by IX – The Hermit. So the misprint is ONLY in the SEQUENCE of the cards in the LWB. The interpretations are correct, in the LWB. The Cards are not mislabled.

Lee	26 Dec 2003
I still believe the Gothic Vampires cards are mislabeled. For VIII, the LWB says "Strength - Power - Power for a good cause. Overcoming insurmountable obstacles." The picture on the VIII card shows a blood-spattered altar or whatever you call it, in a church. For XI, the LWB says "Justice - Consecrated Ground - Awareness that a meaning and higher order exists. Accepting one's responsibilities." The picture on the XI card shows a vampire thrusting his hand through a car window and grabbing the occupant's neck. I believe that if you switch the numbers/descriptions, the pictures will better fit the descriptions. So then you would have strength/power for the hand through the car window, and you would have consecrated ground/higher order for the church altar. Since the cards have only numbers and no titles, technically the cards might not be mislabeled, it all depends on whether LS was doing VIII as Strength or as Justice. It could work either way. But there appears to be a disconnect of meaning between the cards and the LWB. -- Lee

Umbrae	26 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Lee I believe that if you switch the numbers/descriptions, the pictures will better fit the descriptions. So then you would have strength/power for the hand through the car window, and you would have consecrated ground/higher order for the church altar. Essentially what we have now is a difference of interpretive opinion. I feel that the ‘arm through the window’ AND the lwb phrase ‘consecrated ground’ fit – it’s the hunting ground – it’s the payback (instant Karma) of justice. Justice in this case is the victim getting his ‘just desserts’. He has victimized others in the past and now…it’s his turn. Remember, Justice is about acknowledgement of responsibility – not about right and wrong, it’s has more to do with accepting consequences of my own pettieness and behavior than about legalities. The altar does not serve the interpretation well. The blood splattered alter, although you ‘could’ see it as the sacrificial altar shown in some older decks, without much effort it can also be seen as representing the power for a good cause – I see it as powerful and immovable (ever try to move an altar?). In ritualistic communities, the altar is the tie, the strength of the sect…. That block represents being true to the group. Further, it’s been unconsecrated by blood. Now, the desecrated altar is the order and the strength of the Vampire Community – immovable… Want to get Riccardo’s view on this? It’s the only real solution…

Darla	26 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae I feel that the ‘arm through the window’ AND the lwb phrase ‘consecrated ground’ fit – it’s the hunting ground – it’s the payback (instant Karma) of justice. Justice in this case is the victim getting his ‘just desserts’. The blood splattered alter, although you ‘could’ see it as the sacrificial alter shown in some older decks, without much effort it can also be seen as representing the power for a good cause – I see it as powerful and immovable (ever try to move an alter?). In ritualistic communities, the alter is the tie, the strength of the order… This is a very interesting interpretation. I have a problem with both descriptions in the LWB. For example, I can see "Power for a good cause" in neither of the two cards. As Lee does, I read the card with the altar as Justice. Because it is blood splattered I imagined that maybe the vampires stormed in the church and did a little bloodbath. Kind of an act of vengeance or something , I don't know. It doesn't match the descriptions but it always comes to my mind when I look at the card. But Umbrae, I really like your interpretation of the card with the arm through the window as Justice. That's the great thing about tarot, you can see the same thing so differently and no theory is wrong as long as it works for you and your readings. But I'm curious to hear Riccardo's view too.

Lee	26 Dec 2003
Riccardo is away until Jan. 7th. I agree, he is the only person who knows for sure! :) -- Lee

Lee	30 Dec 2003
As I've been thinking more on this, I'm slowly coming to the uneasy conclusion that I'm wrong... and that Umbrae is right! Ackk!! :eek: I can definitely see the vampire's-hand-grabbing-the-neck as Justice in a Batman-ish, antihero-dealing-justice kind of way. As far as the consecrated altar, I think Umbrae's interpretation works, but it could also be a much more simple interpretation: that is, that vampires aren't restricted by common human religious structures, as we can see by the fact that they've invaded a church and desecrated it; they have the strength to defeat such structures, thus, Strength. Umbrae right... me wrong... what is the world coming to... grumble mumble.... -- Lee

Le_Corsair	30 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Lee I can definitely see the vampire's-hand-grabbing-the-neck as Justice in a Batman-ish, antihero-dealing-justice kind of way. As far as the consecrated altar, I think Umbrae's interpretation works, but it could also be a much more simple interpretation: that is, that vampires aren't restricted by common human religious structures, as we can see by the fact that they've invaded a church and desecrated it; they have the strength to defeat such structures, thus, Strength. -- Lee Not so fast, Lee, if you please! Umbrae's interpretation is right only if you are willing to admit that it is equally likely to be correct, rather than just equally valid. Think of it this way: If a person takes a pair of thong underwear and stretches it over his head, does that make it a hat? Some might argue that it is. Admitting the possibility is not the same as admitting the probability. Occam's razor still is the sharpest instrument around. I haven't seen the cards you refer to in this thread, so I depend on your descriptions. An altar desecrated for use by religious people may, in fact, be consecrated for use by vampires, especially since the substance used is blood, without which the vampire cannot survive. In Spain there are many churches and cathedrals that once served as mosques. Those mosques in their turn were, in many cases, built on the sites of churches. So the determination of who the church is consecrated to depends on who owns it at any particular time. When a weight is placed in a scale, what happens? It swings back and forth before steadying. The scene in the bloody church is the new weight placed in the scale of justice. Eventually it will swing back. Not justice in the legal sense, but equilibrium. Strength is easier. All vampire fiction and movies emphasize the strength of the vampire. Stoker describes Dracula as having the strength of 20 men. Rice's vampires are portrayed as not only stronger than human, but also superior to human. So the vampire reaching through a car window to grab someone is a demonstration of strength and superiority, just as the usual image of the woman closing the lion's mouth is meant to demonstrate man's superiority over the beast. (and I know the PETA arguments, so don't repeat them here, please.) So - - Are Umbrae's interpretations of the cards valid? Of course they are! Are they the interpretations most likely to occur to the average reader? Probabably not! But it is good to see an alternate interpretation to the cards, as an intellectual exercise. So for that, Umbrae is to be thanked. Bob :THERM

Lee	30 Dec 2003
Well, but if both sequences -- Strength-Justice or Justice-Strength -- work, then I think we at least need to give Riccardo the benefit of the doubt and assume that the cards aren't mislabeled. -- Lee

Kiama	30 Dec 2003
The mix up of the Witchy Tarot is noted in Diane Wilkes' review of the deck (an excellent and very funny review in my opinion!) http://www.tarotpassages.com/witchy.htm I don't know about the Gothic Tarot of the Vampires, however I'd probably tend more towards Lee's interpretation. (But, as has been mentioned already, it is all down to just interpretation. Kiama

Shade	11 Jan 2004
So is Riccardo back?

full deck	11 Jan 2004
If such switching of card positions had happened to two decent decks, I might care but . . . the LS "Tarot of the Third Millennium" -- a very nice deck from LS I might add -- has Strength as eleven and Justice as eight.

RiccardoLS	12 Jan 2004
I have still to chekc on the booklets, but it should be: VIII - Consacred Ground - Justice XI - Power - Strength so I think the numbers (but not the sequence... why should always do mistakes like that. So Italian of us :( ) has been misplaced. I never thought of the possible interpretation by Umbrae... and I will think of it, regarding the connection between these two cards. Anyway, my mind was being simple and literal this time... Justice was a reference to an Higher Power... that can be challenged but never conquered. Stregngth, beside the obvious, was a comparison between supernatural strength and technological strength (spiritual vs material, yin vs yang, etc...). On the Vampire theme, basically Justice wanted to be at the same time the arrogance of the vampire and his first defeat... while Strength wanted to see the intoxicating effects of his power. Best, Riccardo

Shade	12 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by RiccardoLS Strength wanted to see the intoxicating effects of his power. I like that description, I think it takes the Strength card in new directions. Mistakes lik ethis can be good. Uber collectors years from now can say "And I have the rare one with the error in it that is worth 5 times the corrected version."

The LS Switched Justice and Strength thread was originally posted on 24 Dec 2003 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.