Why do people use the Tarot of Marseilles?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 17 Jan 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

musclegirl	17 Jan 2004
Hi guys, I was looking at the Tarot of Marseilles deck at the store. It was published by Grimaud. All of the numbered minor arcana cards of a suit look pretty much the same as the other ones of the same suit. I am wondering why people use this deck for readings. It doesn't look that interesting to read, compared to some of the picture book tarot decks like the Rider Waite. Am I missing something?

Lee	17 Jan 2004
Hi musclegirl, there are several members here who use the Marseilles often or exclusively, and I'm sure they'll have much to say. There are several reasons I can think of why someone would want to use the Marseilles. First of all, it's an historical deck which comes to us without any accompanying instructional manual. Thus, one can feel free to interpret it without having to deal with the particular esoteric ideas of its creators, unlike, say, the Waite-Smith deck and its descendants, where often there's specific esoteric and ideological symbolism worked into the cards. There's plenty of symbolism in the Marseilles which could be interpreted as esoteric and ideological as well, of course, but the symbolism tends to be simple and direct (for example, whether someone is standing or seated, whether they're naked or clothed, whether a flower stem points one way or the other, etc.) and could be interpreted in many different ways, whereas Waite had particular esoteric ideas which he encoded in very precise and particular symbols in his deck (for example, the lingam and yoni on the front of the Chariot or the winged lion on the 2 of Cups). Another reason is that some people prefer to read with unillustrated pip cards, or, to be more precise, pip cards which don't have scenes with people on them. They may feel that the scenes narrow the cards' meanings, and they may prefer to work with numerological associations. Some people like the idea of working with an historical deck, one that looks like a Tarot deck would have looked centuries ago. These people might actually enjoy decks which are historical reproductions (i.e., photographing an actual old deck) rather than the Grimaud, which has been recreated to conform to the historical design. -- Lee Edited to add: And welcome to Aeclectic! :)

Diana	17 Jan 2004
musclegirl: Welcome to Aeclectic. I think if you go for a casual and relaxing stroll through the Historical Forum, you will perhaps get a glimpse of why the Tarot of Marseille is such a passion for some people. If I explain why I love it so much, I will get very lyrical, and perhaps you want facts, not lyrics. I'll start the song though... but just the first verse. I'll leave out the next twenty or so verses, so as not to bore you too long. :) To many people, the Tarot of Marseille is the only "true Tarot" - what some would call the "Ur-Tarot", and I think therein lies the initial attraction for many of us. But then .... without realising it is even happening, we find ourselves caught up in the pure wonder of it. We discover our origins and the History of Mankind through it. We wander slowly through the myths, the symbols, and the legends it evokes. We hear the voices of our ancestors calling to us and reassuring us that their wisdom has never left us - but that their teachings are all hidden in 22 Major Arcana and 56 Minor Arcana. We get caught up in the simple beauty of those minor cards which leave our imaginations free to roam amongst numbers, elements, suits and the nature depicted on it (the flowers, the stems, the leaves). And it resonates in our soul and we bow in awe and reverence and humility. If you decide to stay with us on these forums, you will often hear me speaking of the Tarot of Marseille. I am not always so lyrical though :D . I tried using other modern decks when I joined Aeclectic - because I found the idea of all these hundreds of decks floating around very exciting..... but I personally became disillusioned with them and have gone back to the comforting arms of my Marseille. And most modern decks (Thoth and Waite decks and clones) are based on Golden Dawn stuff, and I am not a big fan of the Golden Dawn. I hope other people will come along and tell you why they like the Marseille. Perhaps in a more practical way than I have. :laugh:

Moonbow*	17 Jan 2004
I thought the same as you did when I first saw the Marseilles decks, Musclegirl. I remember thinking, why buy that when you could have, Osho Zen, Spiral etc etc. But, when I joined Aeclectic and read some of the posts about the Marseilles I went out and bought myself a deck - just so that I could understand what they were talking about. Then, I realised that Marseilles decks gave so much freedom for expression and intuition, so I had to have a better one, (bought the Hadar). I now read with all types of decks, Marseilles, RWS and clones, and Thothy ones (actually I have a problem calling them Thoth based - because I don't like the Thoth deck, I prefer to call them Kabbalah or Sephorah decks - just me). To me Marseilles is another aspect of Tarot and I can now see how beautiful the decks are. Others here are passionate about one type or another type - me - I like both. In order to learn, I don't want to leave out anything. Moonbow* :)

VGimlet	17 Jan 2004
Hi musclegirl, and welcome to the forums. I'll chime in here too - when I first came to Aeclectic, like Moonbow, I too couldn't figure out why anyone would want to use Marseilles type decks to read with, so plain, so (forgive me) blah. I kind of liken tarot to wine in some ways. When starting out, most tend to like white wines, but as taste develops, you may end up with reds that made your tongue curl before. Some will never like reds, because they get a headache. Others will never go back to whites after they've had a full-bodied red. A few will never drink anything but sweet wine, because they just don't like the taste. And still others, like me, might end up enjoying them all, depending on mood. Both tarot and wine ;). I think it's also about differences in culture - in parts of Europe, you can buy tarot cards at the grocery store, just like playing cards. Most of those decks (correct me if I'm wrong here) are Marseilles decks. So for many Europeans, that is the familiar deck. But in the US, (and UK, etc???) most of what is readily available is Rider Waite or Thoth and their kith and kin. I'm another who is planning to study the Marseilles. Because it is, as Diana so lyrically put it, :D the "Ur-Deck", where it all began. Also because I still can't read with unillustrated pips, and if I study, hopefully I will. (This year's study deck, the Thoth, I have never been drawn too, either). Plus, some of the decks really are beautiful.

Diana	17 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by VGimlet I think it's also about differences in culture - in parts of Europe, you can buy tarot cards at the grocery store, just like playing cards. Very good point, VGimlet. In France, or here in Switzerland, for instance, the Tarot of Marseille is just about the only one that people really know because it's part of our cultural heritage. Like red wine!)

Moongold	17 Jan 2004
Hi MuscleGirl. Well, great question. I purchased a Conver Marseilles and have begun to study it a little. I lost it recently. It must be here somewhere but at the moment I can only find one card: Le Bateleur Do you know.................I am so glad to have lost it. It means that I don't have to look at it right now and think I have to study that...... I think it is well worth studying and using. To be perfectly honest I just don't like it. Maybe one day I will - but at the moment I don't. You'll undoubtedly make up your own mind. :) Moongold

firemaiden	17 Jan 2004
Yes, LOL, I thought the same thing too, when I first started looking at decks, I saw the Marseilles, and went "yuck!" (I also saw the Rider-Waite-Smith and went "yuck") But gradually, the beautiful lyrical singing of people like Diana, and jmd enchanted me, so when I took a trip to Paris, I bought the Camoin-Jorodowski version of the Marseille. One thing struck me right away as soon as I went through the cards -- unlike all the modern decks I had collected, where the artwork is so refined, like "eye-candy", these somewhat crude wood-cut-ish pictures, jumped out at me with the energy of humanity. Their eyes and faces are alive! My favorite card of all is the Empress with her green eyes, I also love Justice who is gazing directly and forcefully at the viewer, seemingly without emotion.

Moongold	17 Jan 2004
Part Two ~ I read the earlier responses and thought I should give a more intellectual qualification to my gut feeling. The history is worth acknowledging but I am so glad that we haven't remained stuck there. How relevant would tarot now seem to many current and potential users if it had retained the European historical imagery? Evolution, in this case has been fascinating and healthy, and takes into account the huge diversity of people potentially interested. There are many decks now, apart from the Marseilles, which don't have illustrated pips (minors) and you can learn to read with them too. Like me, you may well wish to have a Marseilles deck to compare historically but it is quite OK to like and use other decks, and most do now, I think. Moongold

Lee	17 Jan 2004
I always thought the Grimaud was ugly (sorry Diana), but there are other versions of the Marseilles which I find very attractive, such as: The Veritable Tarot de Marseille by Kris Hadar: http://home.comcast.net/~felicityk/tarot/marseilles/hadar.jpg The Camoin-Jodorowsky: http://home.comcast.net/~felicityk/tarot/marseilles/camoin.jpg and the Fournier: http://home.comcast.net/~felicityk/tarot/marseilles/fournier.jpg Those pages are part of an excellent website by Aeclectic member felicityk. -- Lee

RiccardoLS	17 Jan 2004
If You plan to read the Marseille like any "modern" deck, you'll probably fail, like sailing against the wind. But the Marseille (and its kin-decks) allows for a different journey, and a different reading style. I do not use the Marseille, but - as it has been mentioned before - it works (I'm narrowing the subject a lot, I'm aware) with a more intellectual, numerical approach. Believe me that, when you are not taken by the pictures, you will see different openings opnening up (like instinctual correlations between number, suit balances, architectural symbols, etc...). Just think that the Marseille has been the reference on which all of the later deck has been created: the source. Maybe one day, it could be worth to follow the Tarot river to the source and see it all. :) After all, history is important to understand the present. R.

jmd	17 Jan 2004
I suppose the question could be asked of any particular deck... and includes, within it, another question: 'why would you ever even want to choose this deck, when others are available?' Others have already replied, but also wanted to add my voice... difficult to add, after such wonderful responses. I suppose one question which could be asked of oneself is whether one wants to read cards which are stunningly beautiful irrespective as to whether they be Tarot, or whether one wants to read and study Tarot irrespective as to how un-appealing they may initially seem. If the latter, and irrespective as to which Tarot deck one picks up, then at some stage in our study, it will be inevitable that the Marseilles will be encountered. I see the family tree of Tarot as having each of its branches connected to the Marseilles as the trunk. It too continues to grow (witness the Félivité, the Hadar, the Camoin - each under ten years old, as shoots straight up extending the Tree). At its roots are myriad woodcuts, beautifully illustrated and individually painted cards, Mamluk non-Tarot cards, Cathedral carved stone images, and myriad texts and traditions. Its major branches include the Rider/Waite/Colman-Smith, the Crowley/Harris Thoth, the Etteilla Thoth, and the Falconnier Egyptian. A number of other limbs also either branch off from these, or again from the main trunk. Thing is, if it's going to be Tarot, and not some other wonderful deck which may be from another tree (such as the LeNormand, amongst numerous other, deck), it is going to be, in some important, even if removed way, connected to the Marseille trunk... Also, if the word annoys, forget the title Marseille... it is a late appellation :):):) For some of us, versions of the Marseille also have the deepest esoteric significance, the broadest symbolic content, and the most powerful iconic representations. Why skip it?

Moongold	17 Jan 2004
While Tarot waits In comic strips and woodcuts The Fool is quiet. Those who ill compare Miss the point of grace we see, Deaf and blind to Other. Moongold

Jewel-ry	18 Jan 2004
I agree with most of what has been said here. I too went 'yuck, why buy that when you can have......?', but I have the Hadar and I love it! I have so much to learn but I am taking my time. I see it as a challenge. I like a challenge. It will probably be some time before I read with it for others but I've got a lifetime! J :)

~X~	18 Jan 2004
I can't speak for others, but I'm studying a Marseille deck because I'm interested in learning about non illustrated pips and it seems like an obvious choice, although, I am studying other decks in that category as well. I'd liken it to being an important component to being a well rounded tarot reader. In college, you didn't just take classes pertaining to your major, did you? It's the same thing. I don't think it's a deck I'll ever use exclusively, but then, I never say never. OT: Moongold, I love your new avatar! :)

full deck	18 Jan 2004
Musclegirl, there are 88 keys on a piano and they look remarkably alike but the combinations of those keys makes for musical shape, color, etcetera. It is the same way with a Marseilles. Using a Rider approach is OK but the pictures are like painting each key on the piano or putting a picture on the key; it can make for a standardized approach to the music if that is the only way one has of relating to the music and that is not a good thing. Why is reading an actual book different than reading the same book illustrated as a comic book? Is one better than the other?

Emily	18 Jan 2004
Hi Musclegirl, Some readers on here will only use Marseille type decks. They can read better with them, other readers can only truly get into their tarot deck if the Minors have scenes on them. I can read better with a deck with illustrated minors. When you read with a Marseille deck its a different kind of reading, you take the numerology into account, also how many pip cards are the same, i.e how many 4 are in the spread, where the cards are in the spread, also how many of the same suit. The patterns on the cards, flowers, placement of symbols on the cards. I know others do this with illustrated minors too but with a Marseille deck you don't have anything else to go on. I'm not overkeen on the woodcut style of the Marseille but I do like the Italian soprafino decks, Ancient Italian, Classical tarot (LS) that follow the same kind of pattern as the Marseille. :)

kwaw	18 Jan 2004
Although the Marseille is by comparison with other decks crude, ugly, naive I must admit I love it (in terms of artistry then my favorite deck is the Crowley/Harris 'Thoth' deck). I tend to prefer an artists sketches than there 'finished' artwork. They seem to be more animated and have more 'life' to me. Another reason is that I do tend to take a syncretic approach to the tarot, and see in the historical development of tarot a dynamic assimilation of other symbolic systems such as egyptian, numeroligical, astrological and alpha-numeric [hebrew, greek and latin]. I like that in the Marseille, which is relatively free of symbolic saturation, one is free to make these associations for oneself. With modern decks however they are saturated with the subjective associations of the author[s], which is OK if you agree with the associations/attributions of such authors [which i don't in the majority of cases]. The Marseille therefore, being free of an over saturation of symbolic 'intercultural', 'esoteric' and 'occult' references, leaves me free to intuite and develop my own. Kwaw

Chronata	18 Jan 2004
I really do love my Marseilles deck! (it's a Fournier!) And yes I also love the RWS, and a buttload of happy fluffy themey decks too. The reason I like to read with the Marseille is because when I pick up these cards...more than any other deck...I feel this connection to history. They even smell... ancient! There's something that feels really pure and natural about them...something simplistic and yet more complicated than any other deck I use... I think I just adore the paradox of that. And they are a challenge to learn, but there is so much to them that the challenge is a joy! I love that there is always something else to uncover and discover about them. it never gets old, or stagnant or boring. And also, you just can't beat the feeling of reading for strangers, and very accurately nailing everything that is happening in thier lives just by looking at a few sticks or coins! I have had people (including another tarot reader) just sit there amazed and confounded when I can pull distinct imagery from the unillustrated pips. The great thing is that this imagry isn't always the same as the RWS. The Marseilles just opens up a very different door, to a really different way of reading...and seeing...and predicting. I wouldn't trade that tarot experience for all the fluffy oracles in my collection!

Phoenyx*	18 Jan 2004
I looked at the Marseilles deck once, and...I just can't get into the artwork. I wish I could get into it, it sounds like such an absolutely fascinating deck from what everyone has said.

Major Tom	19 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd Also, if the word annoys, forget the title Marseille... it is a late appellation :):):) Jmd - This just begs the question what else you might call it? What was it called before? Let me guess - Tarot? ;) The title Marseille annoys many in the Anglo-Saxon world simply because it is French. :laugh:

Diana	19 Jan 2004
Major Tom: The Marseillais are not French. They are Marseillais.

DollieAnna	12 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by kwaw Although the Marseille is by comparison with other decks crude, ugly, naive You speak the truth, I don't like this deck at all.

Diana	12 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by kwaw Although the Marseille is by comparison with other decks crude, ugly, naive I must admit I love it (in terms of artistry then my favorite deck is the Crowley/Harris 'Thoth' deck). Kwaw adam_atom: You only quoted half of kwaw's sentence. A lot of people don't like this deck. I think some of them don't like it because they have studied it and found it not to their taste. And I think most don't like it because they have never bothered to try and understand its beautiful simplicity and at the same time its depth of wisdom. There are always people who judge books by their covers. That's life.

DollieAnna	12 Feb 2004
I quoted the half of the post that was relevant to me. I don't use the deck cos I don't like it, nothing more.

Lee	12 Feb 2004
My personal opinion is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and that it's downright silly to suggest that people are lazy just because they don't wish to work with a deck which they don't find appealing. Personally I like the Marseille but wouldn't dream of casting aspersions on those who don't. -- Lee

firemaiden	12 Feb 2004
hmmm.... casting all aspersions aside.... there is much to be gained from suspending aesthetic judgement of the Marseilles before getting to know it better.

Mimers	12 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden hmmm.... casting all aspersions aside.... there is much to be gained from suspending aesthetic judgement of the Marseilles before getting to know it better. I agree with you Firemaiden. I used to have distaste for the Marseille type decks. I purchased one purely for study purposes. I do, however, appreciate them much more now. There is a lot to be learned from them and they aren't that ugly. come on now. They are wood cuts and for the amount of detail quite amazing considering! They are the history, the foundation of Tarot. Glad I bought them. Thanks jmd, for convincing me! Oh, and (oh shoot, I can't remember what Diana calls them, but I like her description....Diana? where are you?) unillustrated pips are not difficult if you can remember what each of the suits represent, and the general essence of each number 1-10. Mimi

Cerulean	12 Feb 2004
Three designs of Marseilles are used, trumps and meditative walk: http://english.letarot.com/pages/25journey.html Joan Cole has collected links to various Visconti and Marseilles decks...the links are fascinating to me on the Marseilles because of what I didn't know: http://www.advancenet.net/~jscole/tarotclassic.htm In one of the links, the gentlemen (Camoin? Bouregal?) who teach about the Marseilles speak of the sacred geometry and golden mean that they have found in the designs...and if so, how wonderful. I don't yet know of any passionate Italian history fans who have said the Visconti, Ferarra or Bologna tarots were anything more gaming and gilded reflections of the art of their age..my apologies if I am contradicting myself, as well! In terms of historical delight, I do have a sneaking suspician the beautiful courtly games and troubador romanticism of the 1300s to 1500s that were imported through Italy from France gradually died out in places like Ferarra...although Bologna and Florence evolved their own tarot games..there might be an esoteric component that I might begin to glimpse to the design continuance of the Marseilles evolution...well, one gets more and more curious if you are like me... Especially if, like me, you had received a Vieville and was now eying a historical Parisian deck that might also dimly reflect some Estensi design... Sorry to babble, hope the links help to show a little relevance. Mari H.

Lee	13 Feb 2004
Here are some quotes chosen at random from earlier posts in this thread: "To be perfectly honest, I just don't like it." "I always thought the Grimaud was ugly." "I too went 'yuck'." "I'm not overkeen on the woodcut style of the Marseille." Now here are two quotes from Diana's post: "[...] And I think most don't like it because they have never bothered to try and understand its beautiful simplicity and at the same time its depth of wisdom." "There are always people who judge books by their covers." What is the difference between these quotes from Diana's post and the others? To my mind, the earlier quotes are negative comments about decks. The quotes from Diana's post are negative comments about people. -- Lee Edited to fix typo.

firemaiden	13 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Lee The quotes from Diana's post are negative comments about people . I don't see Diana's comments that way, Lee. I see it as a an expression of the need to devote some time to looking beyond the cover to appreciate the Marseilles. Many people have gone through the process, myself included, of first rejecting the Marseilles based on its "crude" wood-cut quality, and then later embracing its depth. It is true that if one judges the Marseilles by its cover, it may appear crude, thus, the rejection of the "crude" quality is a natural reaction for a new-comer. So too, is it a natural response, for those who have been called by the Tarot de Marseille's depths, to wish to invite the new comers to peer more deeply into those depths.

Diana	13 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Lee Now here are two quotes from Diana's post: " [...] And I think most don't like it because they have never bothered to try and understand its beautiful simplicity and at the same time its depth of wisdom." "There are always people who judge books by their covers." What is the difference between these quotes from Diana's post and the others? To my mind, the earlier quotes are negative comments are about decks . The quotes from Diana's post are negative comments about people . -- Lee 1) If anyone takes my first comment as something degoratory about people, then they should read that sentence again without any pre-conceived negative ideas. For heavens sake, if people had the time to bother to study every deck that came onto the market, they wouldn't have time to sleep, work, eat or even breath. I stand by my comment : "most people who do not appreciate the Marseille have not bothered to try...." It is not a negative remark and if anyone takes it as such, then I suggest they do something about their over-sensitivity because it will cause them problems in other aspects of their lives. (Note that I did say "most people" and not "all people".) 2) There are always people who judge books by their covers. It's true. People say "I don't like the Marseille (or the Ananda or the Witchy or the Morgan Greer) because it's ugly." If that's not judging a book by its cover, I don't know what is. And if there is a single person on Aeclectic (including me) who is not "guilty" of this, then they get 100 Swiss chocolate Pope medals from me. It's human nature. Lee, you are quite welcome to PM me if you need any other clarifications about my posts.

Cerulean	13 Feb 2004
There may have been related threads on how people began liking the older style and using such decks? My own transition might be a little easier because of my attraction to similar patterns in the Milanese, Ferarra and Florentine older decks. If people who do use 'Marseilles-style' or 'Marseilles-based designs' introduce their preference on how they began liking such designs or transitions into Marseilles (which I am at), it would be beneficial for those who might want to find a similar deck...but maybe such potential explorers also doubtful, because they don't know how others have and what might come from such exploration. If someone wanted to gather related threads or introduce an "Exploring Marseilles" (I'm running off to work), I'll post there...if I don't see anything later tonight, I'll try to find a related thread or start a new one with such things. Best wishes, Mari

Emily	13 Feb 2004
One of my quotes is up in Lee's post - the ' not overkeen on the woodcut style etc' but I don't think the style is ugly. I like to see good expressions on my cards and I just don't get that with the Marseille - With my using the Ancient Italian I've found that non-illustrated pip cards are a challenge but worth the effort. Now if I could find a Marseille that was, in my eyes, as pretty as the Italian Soprafino decks it would probably make my day because it is a style of deck that is worth studying - I didn't know anything about numerology before I started using the Ancient Italian, now I do and I use it when I read scenic pips like my Morgan Greer. Its all good experience.

Centaur	13 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana I stand by my comment : "most people who do not appreciate the Marseille have not bothered to try...." It is not a negative remark and if anyone takes it as such, then I suggest they do something about their over-sensitivity because it will cause them problems in other aspects of their lives. (Note that I did say "most people" and not "all people".) [/b] Diana, I too personally do not like the Marseille deck. This is not because I have not 'bothered' to appreciate the deck. It is more to do with my personal taste and what appeals to me. To imply that someone has not 'bothered' to appreciate something implies a certain amount of laziness in that person, therefore in effect it is more or less an accusation of being a little lazy. I do feel that this is indeed a negative remark, and I feel that most people would agree with me. I should also add that one does not have to be over-sensitive to find a comment negative. The negativity is inherent in the comment: that one has not 'bothered' to try. I also point to your first post in this thread re. the fact that you tried out certain decks but always returned to your Marseille. Was this because you did not bother to try? ;) I do wish that we could all discuss the subject of tarot without feeling the need to insult people. It does not contribute in any way to the discussion. C

Dark Inquisitor	13 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Centaur I do wish that we could all discuss the subject of tarot without feeling the need to insult people. It does not contribute in any way to the discussion. C Now what fun would that be? I like the idea that people can have a knock down brawl over a deck of cards. It makes human beings so much more likeable. Tarot of Marseilles is an acquired taste. It falls into the category of primitive art. Folk Art . Once considered junk & worthless, now commanding huge sums. It usually takes a long time to develop an appreciation for it as the eye adjusts to the tastes of another age. Some people may never like it at all. I like many other forms of rustic art as well. As for why I use it, I like the aspect of time travel. I love to have things that are old, -- the older the better even if only a reproduction. It adds a different dimension for me. Tarotphelia

jmd	13 Feb 2004
I suppose that this deviates from the intent of the thread, which is to find out why people use the Marseilles. Also, in the opening post, musclegirl writes '[...] It doesn't look that interesting to read, compared to some of the picture book tarot decks like the Rider Waite. Am I missing something?' It is indeed difficult to answer that question without giving the appearance of downcasting others. Yet I concur with much of the more 'controversial' replies. It may very well be that what is being missed is the deep appreciation which awakens for many of us as we study the context and imagery also found on, for example, mediaeval cathedrals and reading various classical sources. As to the pips, their apparent simplicity masks what may be unveiled by careful analysis of not only details therein included, but again reflections of geometry and connections to other - perhaps imposed - numerological considerations. Again, requiring study, not just looking at the images (of course this is also true of all decks). What tends to occur with study is both a deeper appreciation of the deck, but also an awakening to the beauty and harmony which one's aesthetic sensibilities may initially have been more oblivious to. In common terms, an acquired taste, forever refined as time goes on. A little like good biodynamically grown Arabica beans, grown perhaps in the mountains of northern South America, roasted in a wood-fired oven, and ground just prior to preparing a well balanced black coffee... ...hmmmm - back soon!

Dark Inquisitor	13 Feb 2004
.... or sauerkraut .....(yuck) .

Mimers	13 Feb 2004
Wow, a lot has gone on since I last posted! Quote: Originally posted by jmd It is indeed difficult to answer that question without giving the appearance of downcasting others. Yet I concur with much of the more 'controversial' replies. It may very well be that what is being missed is the deep appreciation which awakens for many of us as we study the context and imagery also found on, for example, mediaeval cathedrals and reading various classical sources. What tends to occur with study is both a deeper appreciation of the deck, but also an awakening to the beauty and harmony which one's aesthetic sensibilities may initially have been more oblivious to. In common terms, an acquired taste, forever refined as time goes on. I agree very much with jmd's thoughts. I did indeed aquire, over time, a taste for the Tarot de Marseille's beauty. It was an investment of time and money I am glad I made, and wouldn't have made, had I not been convinced of the importance of studying Tarot's roots; what Tarot was before all the Mystical associations were added to it. I still use RWS type decks for doing readings, but often refer to my Camoin for comparitive purposes. I will also add, since everyone else voiced their opinions, that I personally found Diana's comments unoffensive. Saying someone does not bother to do something is quite different than saying they are too lazy to do something. Mimi

Mimers	13 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Tarotphelia .... or sauerkraut .....(yuck) . yummm!!! especially on a hot dog at Yankee stadium! mmm, mmm, good :D

lionette	13 Feb 2004
After reading this thread, I'm becoming tempted! (and not because of the sauerkraut!) Any deck that sparks such a heated discussion is worth a second look! Have always been drawn to more modern arty decks (light & shadow, new century, etc.) but didn't realize there were so many versions of Marseilles -- thanks to Mari for posting links to more deck images/resources, so maybe there's real hope for a conversion :) Now I'll head off to History & Iconography for an introduction...

Diana	14 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Centaur To imply that someone has not 'bothered' to appreciate something implies a certain amount of laziness in that person, therefore in effect it is more or less an accusation of being a little lazy. I have explained my point of view. If you still want to read things into my words which I did not say, there is nothing I can do about it. I can't be bothered to study the Witchy Tarot. And certainly not out of laziness. But I have looked hard at the cards and have decided I am not a would-be-teenage-witch-from-Charmed so they would not bring me much. Today, I told my family I can't be bothered to make lunch. Not because of laziness. But because I'm fed up with making 14 meals a week and I felt like having a little break. Not out of laziness, but out of boredom.... Quote: I also point to your first post in this thread re. the fact that you tried out certain decks but always returned to your Marseille. Was this because you did not bother to try? Actually, if you had read my posts before replying, you would have seen I had written: "A lot of people don't like this [marseille]deck. I think some of them don't like it because they have studied it and found it not to their taste." And that is why I gave up my Rider Waite and its clones. If you do a search through my few thousand posts (I would advise you not to... there's a lot of babble there to get through), you would see that I was most keen to learn about it and I invested a lot of money in books and decks at one time. I remember being very excited about finding a whole new Tarot world (which I discovered when I joined Aeclectic.) After a while, the excitement died down, and I became disappointed.... and went back to my Marseille. And apart from my Hudes deck, which I keep for sentimental purposes, and the RWS deck which I keep for reference, I have traded all my other numerous RWS-type decks which I had bought, traded and studied. One day, I plan to study the Thoth in depth but right now I can't be bothered. Not due to laziness, but due to prioritising my life.

Centaur	14 Feb 2004
Diana, As we are using the Internet, it is difficult to express oneself in any other way other than the use of words (unless ofcourse one has a webcam, which are usually of an awful quality anyway ;)). Therefore, I have read your response to my post, and I feel that you have indeed made some valid points. You have thoroughly explained what you meant and I take your point. Perhaps you should have done that in the first place so as to avoid offending anyone. I for one read over my posts before I post them so as to check that they are fine and that I have not included any expletives (which I sometimes do! haha). I suggest that you do the same. Yes. One could argue that one cannot read through EVERY post one has written in order to check that it does not contain a possible offensive slant. I think that most posts do not contain this element anyway, but I feel when it comes to what one might say is a 'touchy' subject, then one should take greater care. For instance, I know how 'touchy' people can be about specific tarot decks! I know people who boil red with 'rage' at comments re. their tarot-abilities and tarot-efforts, etc. I always think that these things can be dealt with more tactfully. But... Quote From Diana:- ***There are always people who judge books by their covers. That's life. The examples you used in the last post to explain your use of the word 'bothered' are in a different context when you read the above statement in the original post in which you implied that those who do not like the Marseille have not 'bothered' to get to know it. When one judges a book by its cover, one makes a rash judgement without getting to know the subject-matter. In the English language judging a book by its cover is considered to be a negative term. When you talk of not making lunch because you cannot be 'bothered' it is therefore said in a completely different context from that which you stated earlier. See what I mean?! One must choose one's words more carefully. Oh, and I know what you mean re. the Thoth deck. I have this deck, but have not managed to immerse myself in it as of yet! I have been using it, but I feel that there is much I am missing out on: one of the benefits of the deck! :) C

jmd	14 Feb 2004
One of the great benefits of the Marseille deck - and perhaps one of the reasons some also use it - is also because it may provide further insights into other Tarot decks, whichever these be. Of course, as a Tarot, the Marseille is not going to be exhausted when we decide to call a break to our study - this may also be said of other Tarot decks, but the Marseille does indeed form a central backbone on which, in many ways, other decks depend, including the Eteilla, the RWCS, the Falconnier, and the CH Thoth (to list the major decks which have used, and deviated from, the Marseille). It is partly this centrality which also makes the Marseille so appealing for many. That one may see therein astrological or other significance only adds to one's ongoing study. To return to the original question, then, some of the reasons people use the Marseille is because of its centrality to Tarot studies. Others use it because they also see in its 'crude' woodcut style a beauty and harmony and depth. This may of course not be seen by others - hence the inevitableness of the question which titles this thread :)

Centaur	14 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd One of the great benefits of the Marseille deck - and perhaps one of the reasons some also use it - is also because it may provide further insights into other Tarot decks, whichever these be. It is partly this centrality which also makes the Marseille so appealing for many. That one may see therein astrological or other significance only adds to one's ongoing study. To return to the original question, then, some of the reasons people use the Marseille is because of its centrality to Tarot studies. I would agree with this. From what I read, and I do not know much about this deck, then the Marseille is one of the oldest tarot-decks around. I can imagine that this would give it great appeal to tarot-collecters and those who like their decks tinged with history. I also notice that there are different variations on this deck, as posted in links earlier in the thread. I am trying to think of a situation in which I would buy this deck. If anyone would like to 'donate' this deck to me then please feel free! Haha. Do you use this deck Jmd, and if so what do you feel is its main difference between that and say the Rider-Waite deck? C

jmd	14 Feb 2004
The Marseille is certainly not only just of historical interest. Of three amongst the various Marseille that I own (Cf my relatively small collection), three have been created in the last ten years, and these three form part of my favourite all-time decks. In addition, J-C. Flornoy's Major Arcana recreations of two very early decks (Cf his letarot.com site) are also masterpieces in their own merit. The earliest fully extant 78-card Tarot deck in existence is a Marseille. The term 'Marseille(s)' applies to a family or group of decks, hence why there may also be some quite heated debate amongst Marseille enthusiasts. With regards to the differences with the RWCS, these are numerous, even though it is evident that Waite (and Crowley) and the artists (Colman Smith for the RWCS and Harris for the CH Thoth) relied, as a base, on the Marseilles. Pamela Colman Smith undoubtedly used the non-Tarot (but closely related) Sola Busca then in the British Museum from which to influence her pip-card illustrations. The scenic aspects of the RWCS pips, as opposed to the 'simpler' illustrations of the Marseilles is probably that which most easily distinguishes the two. Waite was, of course, a member of the Golden Dawn (GD), and part of their view was to allocate both Hebrew letters and related astrological correspondences to the Major Arcana (I'll skip the minor for this part of the posting). For reasons which better belong (and may already exist) in threads on the RWCS, I'll skip comments, but will mention that as a result Waite did inverse Justice and Strength, and added a zero upon the Fool, thereby 'forcing' that card's position at the beginning of the sequence. Crowley rightly comments that the number zero must mathematically precede the number one - the Fool, however, has no such numbering upon the Marseillle, and is thus not required to head the series which properly begins, in the Marseille, with the Bateleur/Magician. With regards to the CH Thoth deck (the term 'Thoth' for the Tarot was used prior to Crowley), he reverted to the Marseille numbering of Justice as eight and Strength as eleven (though with altered title), but kept the Fool as zero - thus also altering the Marseille pattern. With regards to Hebrew alphabet correlations, there are four common ones, which I began to discuss in the thread titled (hopefully appropriately) Hebrew letter correlations. Two of these pertain traditionally to the Marseille. It is also worth noting that even the GD version is a modification of the Marseille attributions given by E. Levi to Wescott (one of the founders of the GD), and that Crowleys modifications are GD modifications - hence again a chain of union, with the Marseille, is complete. As to whether I personally use the Marseille, I tend to do readings more with a Schaffhouse (which has some differences to the Marseille), but tend to do most other work, including meditative Tarot work, with the Marseille. edited to correct 'Mantegna' to 'Sola Busca' - an error I made and thank Lee for picking me up on...

Centaur	14 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd The Marseille is certainly not only just of historical interest. Of three amongst the various Marseille that I own (Cf my relatively small collection ), three have been created in the last ten years, and these three form part of my favourite all-time decks. In addition, J-C. Flornoy's Major Arcana recreations of two very early decks (Cf his letarot.com site) are also masterpieces in their own merit. Thanks for the links! I am afraid that I do not know much about this deck: only that I took an instant dislike to it. But then, at one point I hated coffee and now drink bucketloads of the stuff. When I look at the deck, it does not do anything for me. I like a deck to 'stand-out'. I guess what stands-out for some people does not stand-out for others. Are you saying that the Marseille does not have as much imagery in it as is in other decks? If so, do you feel that this enhances your readings with this deck, in that it requires one to greater use intuition without so much reliance on symbolism? Much food for thought in your post! C

firemaiden	14 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Centaur Are you saying that the Marseille does not have as much imagery in it as is in other decks? If so, do you feel that this enhances your readings with this deck, in that it requires one to greater use intuition without so much reliance on symbolism? Hello Centaur. Only the minor cards in the Marseille could be called sparer in imagery. This brings us back to the old debate about scenic (RWS style) pips (minor arcana), versus "non-scenic" pips. Yes, indeed, many feel that the less explicit imagery of the Marseille style minor cards, is more "open", allowing the reader greater flexibility of interpretation. This is another hot topic :D For some insight into how these non-scenic pips are read, have a look at jmd's thread Unillustrated pips One of the many threads exploring the virtues and drawbacks of non-scenic pips is the thread begun by Ophiel (over coffee): Pictures vs. Symbols on the Pips

Centaur	14 Feb 2004
So, are the major-cards as rich in imagery as the Rider-Waite cards? I do not know what it is, but whenever I look at this deck, I am reminded of ordinary playing-cards. C

jmd	14 Feb 2004
The symbolism inherent in the Marseilles is certainly extremely rich - going through some of the individual threads of the Major Arcana in the History and Iconography section will hopefully reveal some of the incredible wealth the deck includes. There is a difference, however, between having a wealth and depth of symbolism within the iconographic image, and the details which may be included. For example, if I write [-1+5^(1/2)]/2, one is presented at once with details which require further study in order to penetrate what is here presented. If I similarly draw a :OL, the reader may or may not recognise the similarity. In the first case, someone inexperienced in sacred geometry would flounder. In the second case, both the 'master' and the neophyte would recognise important elements. Only one more experienced would also realise that the crossing of each of the arms of the :OL occurs at the value previously expressed. In some ways, the imagery in the Marseille is like the latter. It contains, in deceptively simple imagery, a wealth far deeper than may be apparent - though that depth requires a study not obviously 'demanded' of its bearer...

Centaur	14 Feb 2004
Yes. I would agree with that. I suppose this is true of most decks. I am thinking in particular of the Thoth. But I feel that the imagery has to speak to me on some level prior to learning the deeper meanings of the imagery... it just has to stand out in some way. If not, then it does not spark my interest. C

jmd	14 Feb 2004
I suppose I too was thinking of the CH Thoth with my example, with the mathematical expression in some ways being analogous to the CH Thoth, and the deceptively simpler geometric pentagramme to the Marseilles. If, just as one example, we take the incredible imagery on the Papess/High Priestess card, and observe its content, we see in Harris's incredible work (on the CH Thoth) much which is complex in its representation. This, in some ways, boldly suggests that there is more than meets the eye. What is that dress made of ? and what are those shapes near the bottom of the card ? The details are such that its study is in many ways 'demanded'. In many ways, one must do the reverse of what Harris and Crowley did: they worked on the concept beyond the image, and progressively gave birth to this exemplar - the bearer needs to work with the examplar, and return, from the myriad details, to its underlying being. Essentially, however, the economy-of-image-representation on the Marseille, some examples of which may be viewed on the Papess thread, encapsulates the elements of the card. Studying each may likely lead to similar halls - the possibilities is also that different rooms may be entered, as the fraction in my mathematical example may lead to negative numbers and surds, and the pentagramme to hexagrammes and Fibonacci sequences. For an early image of the Marseille variety, here is the Dodal version. Of course, much discussion of this and each card can be made - hence the History & Iconography section... to which each and everyone is more than welcome to contribute and add to the threads :) I am not trying to, by the way, spark your interest - that, as implied, must come from the inner core of one's self...

crystal cove	14 Feb 2004
I began studying the Marseille decks because I wanted to explore non-scenic pips. I also study the ancient Italian decks and others that fall into this category. The reason being, I wanted to see what they had to offer, and frankly, I love studying and learning new things! I collected decks for their art and images for years, and while I love about ten or twelve of them, most are just too commercial for me and add nothing to my tarot experience, and thus have been traded or given away. Studying non-scenic pip decks requires at least a working knowlege of numerology and suits/elements and to me adds a whole new demension to the scenic pip decks that I do use. Not to mention the fact, it has caused me to seriously question how some deck authors came up with some of their meanings for certain numbers. I like the idea of having a "base" of logic for the cards and letting my intuition go from there. I didn't begin to work with Marseille decks/other non-scenic pip decks because of the art, (I have enough decks for that purpose) but to study the simplicity of the iconography without the art getting in the way.

Lee	14 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd Pamela Colman Smith undoubtedly used the non-Tarot (but closely related) Mantegna then in the British Museum from which to influence her pip-card illustrations. Hi jmd, do you mean the Sola Busca? -- Lee

jmd	14 Feb 2004
I certainly did... oops!

Emily	14 Feb 2004
I've just been looking at the Camoin Tarot de Marseille. And wondering why it looked so different, so did a little bit of searching and find that its actually a modern reproduction based on the Conver Tarot de Marseille but with more symbolism added in from other Marseille decks, apparently. I know its not quite traditional Marseille woodcut style but it looks nicely done but how does it compare to traditional Marseille's, like the Conver, or is it just a clone deck? Either way I like this deck, I like that they have expressions and the Minors are pretty - Also its a deck that I hadn't noticed before so jmd you sparked my interest :D

Imagemaker	14 Feb 2004
I feel the same way, twenty-one--now that I've acquired and looked at a lot of RWS decks, I want to learn other angles. I read part 1 of the DuQuette book on Understanding the Thoth, having read with it and the Gill, and think that will be my next path of exploration. I guess I'm working backwards and will then get to the Marseilles! Got to release my need for scenes slowly . . .

Lee	14 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Centaur So, are the major-cards as rich in imagery as the Rider-Waite cards? I do not know what it is, but whenever I look at this deck, I am reminded of ordinary playing-cards. I think an important distinction between the Marseille along with other antique decks on the one hand and occult decks like the RWS or the Thoth on the other, is that for the RWS and Thoth and other modern decks, we know for a fact that the designers of those decks deliberately encoded specific meanings into the various pictorial elements on the cards. For instance, the objects pictured on the front of the RWS Chariot are a lingam and yoni, which have a specific mythological significance. For the Marseille and other antique decks, in contrast, we simply don't know whether the creators of these decks deliberately intended to encode specific mystical/mythological/philosophical meanings into the pictorial details of the cards. And there is no historical evidence to show that they did (although I think it's reasonable to assume a philosophical significance to the overall sequence beginning with the lowly beggar in the Fool and ending with the cosmological sequence of Star, Moon, Sun, World). Unfortunately, the creators of the Marseille did not leave us with an instruction book! Given the historical evidence or lack thereof, I think it would be entirely reasonable to speculate that the Marseille was one particularly popular stage in the evolution of a deck of game-playing cards which, much like PC game-playing today, used exciting ideas which were flying around in the culture then prevalent, not in a heavy-handed didactic manner, but rather simply to provide piquancy to the game-playing experience. In this vein, I think comparing the Marseille with modern playing cards is a very apt analogy (besides the visual similarity, which I've noticed and is one of the reasons why I like the Marseille). This, I think, presents a difficulty when people are exhorted to "study" the Marseille. What exactly is it that we're supposed to study? I realize that there are several French-language books with important-sounding titles which take every aspect and element of the Marseille cards and assign profound significance to them. However, none of these books can be considered definitive, because they're all simply interpretations of those factors and elements developed by those individual authors (who, of course, differ with each other). Some would say that the only way to study the Marseille is to study mythology, mysticism, history, philosophy, mathematics, art, etc., etc., etc. I would agree with this viewpoint, but I'm still left a bit puzzled by the folks in this forum who seem to suggest in their posts specific parallels and links to those subjects, because it seems to me that such links and parallels are in the eyes of the beholder, and will differ for each person. This is in contrast to studying, say, the Thoth, which is a much more straightforward proposition, since its creator, Aleister Crowley, wrote a rather lengthy book about it, and there are more recent books further discussing and explicating Crowley's theories, and there is much written about the Golden Dawn system which underlies Crowley's system. There are some tarot scholars (for example, Kris Hadar who created the Veritable Tarot de Marseille, a new version which happens to be my favorite Marseille deck) who create a more representational deck (by that I mean a deck specifically designed to impart mystical/mythological/psychological/ philosophical ideas) by sort of squinting at the cards while looking at them sideways in order to make out objects on the cards where it is questionable whether the original artist meant to depict such objects. Another approach, for example that taken by the creators of the Camoin-Jodorowsky Marseille, another modern Marseille recreation, is to put entirely new objects on the cards, and citing "oral history" as their justification for doing so. Since there's no way for the average person to know if such oral history really exists or whether it's just an excuse to place completely imaginary objects on the cards, I think many will find these innovations (for example, a Qabalistic Tree of Life depicted in the buttons of the Hanged Man's shirt) to be rather dubious. So, to Centaur's question, are the Marseille Majors as rich in imagery as the RWS Majors, I think the answer would have to be that there is lots of imagery on the Marseille Majors but it is of a different type. Where the RWS imagery was deliberately created to communicate specific mystical and occult knowledge, the Marseille, apparently, was not, and thus people are free to develop their own interpretations of the imagery. I understand that some Marseille enthusiasts do indeed believe there is a specific, definitive set of meanings and attributions, but until they can produce that instruction book written by the Marseille's creator(s), which to this point remains imaginary, I find it difficult to take such assertions seriously. Personally, I find the Marseille a pleasant deck to look at (but not the Grimaud version), and I enjoy experimenting with it for readings and speculating on what might be the best way to read the pip cards. -- Lee Edited to replace "ideology" with "knowledge"

Dark Inquisitor	14 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Centaur When I look at the deck, it does not do anything for me. I like a deck to 'stand-out'. I guess what stands-out for some people does not stand-out for others. C [/b] Here is a link to pix of the Fournier Marseilles, which is a re-colored version that stands out quite a bit: http://www.tarotpassages.com/marsf.jpg

Diana	14 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Lee Where the RWS imagery was deliberately created to communicate specific mystical and occult ideology, the Marseille, apparently, was not, and thus people are free to develop their own interpretations of the imagery. Huh?????? :confused: :confused: :confused: *Sitting here with my mouth wide open. (Lucky it's winter and not fly season, or I would have swallowed quite a number by now.)* The Marseille was obviously designed to communicate occult knowledge - but it was done in the most beautifully democratic way (contrary to most secret societies who keep their knowledge for their chosen and promised few). I prefer the word "knowledge" to "ideology" but perhaps it's better not to be a stickler for words, or else we may end up making off-topic posts about them. I get your point when you use the word "ideology".) It is as obvious as the fact that the Sun rises in the East.....

Lee	14 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana I prefer the word "knowledge" to "ideology" I will happily accept Diana's suggestion and substitute the word "knowledge" for "ideology." -- Lee

crystal cove	14 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Imagemaker I feel the same way, twenty-one--now that I've acquired and looked at a lot of RWS decks, I want to learn other angles. I read part 1 of the DuQuette book on Understanding the Thoth, having read with it and the Gill, and think that will be my next path of exploration. I guess I'm working backwards and will then get to the Marseilles! Got to release my need for scenes slowly . . . Nothing wrong with that! I LOVE my Thoth deck.

Centaur	14 Feb 2004
I think it is obvious from previous posts that there is much food for thought relating to the Marseille. I also have to admit that even though this information is not geared towards sparking an interest in the deck, I am starting to become curious with regards to it. With any deck, I like to observe the cards, and aswell as appreciating the imagery and symbolism intended by the artists and such, I like to draw my own connections and associations. In other words, I like to see what I can 'come up with' on my own. Ofcourse, I like to learn as to the actual symbology, and intended meanings, but I think that it is also fun and enjoyable to draw one's own associations. Lee, I found what you said to be most interesting indeed. If I read your post correctly, then you are saying that the Marseille is not connected to any particular branch of the occult or other such knowledge? I did not know this, and I think that it is a most liberating approach to take. It leaves one with complete freedom of association. I guess then that there are perhaps some books written by individuals who are not in anyway passing on some form of traditional knowledge, but rather their own interpretations of the cards? I have read some posts re. this deck, and I have always been under the impression that it has indeed been connected to some form of knowledge. Again, I am surprised. I say this, because I have seen some individuals getting rather upset when one challenges their own approach to this deck. Rather amusing really! So, I guess what you are saying is that with the Rider-Waite, etc the imagery is already in some way encoded with knowledge, whereas in the Marseille it is not so? It is therefore a virgin deck waiting to be impregnated with knowledge? Oh, and Tarotphelia, I am actually rather impressed with the Fournier Marseilles. It is quite attractive, and nothing like the drab-versions I have seen. Ooooo... a breakthrough! C

Lee	14 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Centaur Lee, I found what you said to be most interesting indeed. If I read your post correctly, then you are saying that the Marseille is not connected to any particular branch of the occult or other such knowledge? I did not know this, and I think that it is a most liberating approach to take. It leaves one with complete freedom of association. I guess then that there are perhaps some books written by individuals who are not in anyway passing on some form of traditional knowledge, but rather their own interpretations of the cards? Hi Centaur, yes, that's the gist of what I'm saying, although I need to qualify this a little bit by saying that although to my knowledge there's no historical evidence of the Marseille having been designed to impart particular occult ideas, one cannot say with absolute certainty that it wasn't, only that it appears likely it wasn't, according to the evidence. Let me say also that when I speak of the Marseille not having been designed to impart occult ideas, I'm speaking of the particular details and pictorial elements on the Marseille cards. The situation might be different if we speak in general of the tarot (i.e. general sequence, titles, general iconography [i.e. a crowned woman seated with a shield for the empress]) as a whole, rather than specific Marseille imagery. I still don't believe there's evidence to support a definitive statement that the tarot in general is of occult origin, but I think one could make a more convincing argument from internal evidence (i.e. examining the general iconography) that there were some kind of occult/mystical/mythological ideas swimming around in the heads of the creators. Basically, however, I think it's going too far to take specific details of the Marseille and assume that they represent the curriculum of some esoteric society or individual in the same way that the RWS and Thoth decks do, especially when one considers that the way Marseille decks were used was to play games with them. And yes, I believe that the books written about the Marseille are indeed the individual interpretations of their authors, although I suppose some of them may be basing their ideas on previous authors, and thus may be thought of as a tradition. But since, unlike the RWS and Thoth, we've been left with no instruction book by the creators, I don't consider any of these "traditions" to be authoritative. Thus, I very much agree with you that in this sense, it is a virgin deck waiting to be impregnated with knowledge, and that if anyone tells you "this in the Marseille deck means such-and-such and that means so-and-so," you should take such statements with a grain of salt. Do check out Aeclectic member felicityk's Marseille website, where you can view several Marseille versions: http://home.comcast.net/~felicityk/tarot/marseilles/ -- Lee

crystal cove	14 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Centaur I did not know this, and I think that it is a most liberating approach to take. It leaves one with complete freedom of association. C It's also liberating to not be saddled with a particular author's decision to focus on a negative or positive interpretation of a card based on a word or imagery. I like to do that myself based on card position and surrounding cards, but then, that's me. I have the Fournier deck and like it very much. May I also suggest you check out the Hadar? The coloring is MUCH better than most of the Marseille decks......altho, I have those too. :)

Centaur	14 Feb 2004
Lee, Thanks for the link! I will check it out. What you have said has intrigued me to the extent that I am going to further explore this deck. I like the idea of a deck which might be free of any strong occult-approach. As I said, I feel that it is a very liberating approach allowing for more free-association and a much more fluid approach to interpretation. I guess this could be considered to be one of the positive points in support of purchasing such a deck. It is funny that you should mention the possibility of an encounter with a person so absorbed in their own approach to the Marseille that they cannot allow for open-mindedness. I have already met such people and I am thinking of one in particular who is really quite aggressive about it all. It is most ridiculous! :) Twentyone, thank you for your suggestion of the Hadar. I do like a well-coloured deck. Infact, I use the Universal-Waite because I find the colours to be most attractive. I think that there is nothing worse than a drab deck. C

Aoife	14 Feb 2004
I feel distinctly disadvantaged being unable to read french, and hence the vast majority of material written about the Marseille Tarot. I presume Lee, that you have read some of the French authors? Would it be possible for you to precis your understanding of their views? Many thanks in anticipation.

Lee	14 Feb 2004
My high school French is woefully inadequate to read such books. I based my comments about these books on the comments of others on the Forum who've read them. I wish someone would translate some of these books into English. Here's a thread from the Books and Media section which may be of interest: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20026 -- Lee

Moongold	14 Feb 2004
I have enjoyed the practice readings initiated by Rusty Neon in the Historical Iconography Forum. My Marseilles deck is the Conver but I've been looking at others and feel quite attracted to the Fournier, mainly because the images seem more like paintings than woodcuts, thus visually more appealing to me. Can't seem to find a complete set to look at on the web, however, and I would like to see more of the pips. Also, where do you buy this now? No-one seems to sell it. Is there any reason for this, I wonder. Moongold

Lee	14 Feb 2004
Hi Moongold, you can order the Fournier here: http://www.trigono.com/Tarocchi/TA04TAML.htm Also here (search for fournier marseille, then click on "Tarot de Marseille"): http://www.alidastore.com/indexen.html -- Lee

jmd	14 Feb 2004
Allow me a few more comments. It is interesting to note that even if one studies the CH Thoth, much of its imagery is not going to be given by the writings of either of its creators (Crowley and Harris). Even the non-directly Tarot elements, such as the Projective geometry used, will need to be studied knowing that Harris worked with Olive Whicher weekly during much of the time. Olive Whicher herself also worked with original developments which her husband, George Adams, made as a consequence of his mathematical investigations from the works of Rudolf Steiner. Much of this emerges, in transformed ways, in Harris's paintings. Harris's own Co-Masonic affiliation (she also painted tracing boards for her Lodge) undoubtedly, but in a veiled form, impacted on her work. I write this not because I wish to discuss the CH Thoth, but because here is an example which we can easily see has investigations which lead far beyond the 'obviousness' of the imagery presented. With regards to the RWCS (and of course my rather hasty typing in 40+ C. heat of 'Mantegna' for 'Sola Busca' should be taken as just that, as this 2002 post shows), again its study needs to transcend the descriptions written of it by its creators. After all, if it wasn't for the independent writings of other members of the GD, we certainly would not have been certain of the reasons for the Justice/Strength switch made. Whether the Marseille deck was created to 'communicate specific mystical and occult knowledge', investigations need to be made in greater extant than the rather biased views of Dummett. Dummett was originally motivated to research the Game of Tarot, and collected as many extant rules of the game he could find. His book(s) are indeed superb with regards to their reporting of documents. His interpretation and conclusions reached of the extant evidence, however, tend to also go beyond what is warranted. That the Marseille was indeed used for games is the case. That each of its images was also already in existence by the time of Conver's deck (1760s) is also quite clearly the case. Most, if not all, may also be found in Cathedral carvings, illuminated manuscripts, and other depictions dating from the 12th and 13th centuries. Many, of course, may also be found from late antiquity, and some from ancient times. That these images depict occult elements - well, this partly depends on how one understands 'occult'. They certainly depict iconography which transcends the mundane, both singly and in sequence. It is this study which remains important in deepening one's understanding of the deck. In that sense, the Marseille remains not a 'a virgin deck waiting to be impregnated with knowledge', but a deck already impregnated and rich in symbolism waiting to be unveiled by the loving gaze and understanding of its beholder.

Moongold	14 Feb 2004
Well, I ordered the Fournier and for some reason feel really excited. I ordered it from Trigono - what a fascinating web site. They had more pictures of the actual cards there as well. I have just ordered the book, Meditations on Tarot which Amazon have shipped to me today and, as I understand this book to be based on the Marseilles, I'm really looking forward to receiving my Fournier. The Conver has been very interesting to read with. Even though it is such an "old" deck, it does evoke strong associations of contemporary images. I must think about this some more. Sometimes the mind is more free than at others for this kind of association. One can make quite extensive and profound associations with illustrated decks as well. Maybe some decks are just more appropriate for different kinds of readings. For instance, I am not sure that you could use a Marseilles for a Konraad "Past Lives" spread. I think this might be the last deck I get for a while, however. The dangers of credit cards :(. But more the need to focus and to get to know what decks I have really well. I will have fourteen when the Fournier arrives. Moongold

WolfyJames	14 Feb 2004
I recently got the Fournier and believe me, the deck is even prettier in person. I can't stand the Tarot de Marseille, the hideous images give me goosebumbs and nightmares - Sorry Diana, but it's the truth. The Fournier is the exception, so far for me, and not only I'm confortable in its presence, I find it agreable to look at and hold it. I now have a Tarot de Marseille and I've started using it for study. I hope your deck will give you as much joy (at least) as it has given me. Good luck with it. ;)

Diana	15 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by WolfyJames I can't stand the Tarot de Marseille, the hideous images give me goosebumbs and nightmares - Sorry Diana, but it's the truth. Goodness WolfyJames, why do need to apologise to me? :confused: Even if I had designed the deck itself, as well as adding in the occult knowledge, I wouldn't care less whether you burned the decks in a big bonfire and danced around the bonfire. :D I don't think the Marseille is a deck that pleases everyone, and that is normal. We are all individuals with different quests in our lives. Personally, I think the Fournier is a horrible deck, and I would never buy it. ;)

Moongold	15 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Personally, I think the Fournier is a horrible deck, and I would never buy it. ;) Quote: Originally posted by Wolfy James I can't stand the Tarot de Marseille, the hideous images give me goosebumbs and nightmares Quote: from Margaret Hungerford 1855 - 97 Beauty is altogether in the eye of the beholder There is nothing like the power of aesthetics :D :D :D I have, or will soon have, the best of both worlds - a Conver and a Fournier. That makes one seventh of my Tarot deck collection Marseilles. I also have two other decks with basically unillustrated pips - the Old English and the Sephiroth. The Sephiroth is a particular favourite, although it is Thoth based. I don't think I will ever stop reading with illustrated decks because they are so evocative and perfect for certain situations. I learned on them as well (or should I say "learnt"?). Sooner or later, if you want to evolve as a reader, I think you have to explore numerology and astrology, with the scenic decks as well. That is when you begin to discover some internal inconsistencies in the structure and ideology of some of those decks. . This when I began to be seriously interested in the Marseilles as a futher step in learning. I still sruggle, also, with the harshness of some of the images, but you get cards you don't really like in most decks. I think it is important to know the Marseilles. Rusty Neon's reading exercises in Historical Iconography have really been worthwhile and I do hope he continues them. I think the Marseilles would appeal to many more people if they could actually see some readings in practice in this way. I learn by doing. Your project with Khatrumann and the Marseilles pips last year was valuable too, Diana. What happened to the numerology threads that someone began earlier this year as well? Why not join us, Wolfy? I am looking forward to using both the Conver and the Fournier. Today, I have been quite excited about the Fournier, however, as I purchased it just this afternoon. :) Edited later to add that I had not read the debates about the Marseilles in the earlier part of this thread before making this post. I hadn't read any posts since my own remarks at that time. It feels as if I stumbled unwittingly into an old battle - for me - that is. How careful one has to be. To be honest one of the things which deterred me from exploring the Marseilles at first was the apparent exclusivity of those committed to the deck here. This was a purely emotional response from someone with a working class background and some degree of pride and determination (stubborness?). I remember once posting to one of the elite discussions and being ccmpletely ignored......Well, that was the finish. :D Good intellectual reasons for not going any further, eh? Anyway, now my study of Tarot has led me with curiosity to the Marseilles again, and I want to persevere with it. The more people who get involved with the discussions, the more the energy will be spread around, the more lively our discussions will be and the more we will learn. Moongold

ihcoyc	29 Sep 2004
Here is Wisdom. I hope you're sitting down for this. . . . ready? . . . Tradition is tradition because it's, uh, . . . traditional. Tradition is the reason we're reading Tarot cards, not reading Pokémon trading cards or baseball cards. I went looking for this thread because I had read WolfyJames's posts about why he was moved to get rid of his Marseilles deck. I can understand why someone might find the old woodcut decks somewhat unsettling. The faces of the people are often quite heavy lidded, and many are somewhat wizened looking. They look like ancient and unfriendly full figure versions of the stylized faces on playing cards. The trumps and court cards stand out among the pips. They don't promise easy access to their secrets, like the explicitly esoteric decorations of some more recent decks. They aren't covered with astrological or kabbalistic associations. They aren't cats or teddy bears or animé characters. Their relative simplicity and silence, though, is also part of tradition. Arguably, the most important part; just about every other Tarot deck begins here. There is something about their antiquity, crudity, and muted colours that is somewhat unsettling. That, though, is a part of their power.

fyreflye	29 Sep 2004
Hi, ihcoyc, Don't know what occasioned your little burst of WISDOM but it did serve to bring this fascinating thread to my attention. I just recently got the Hadar and the Comoin-Jodo decks, my first Marseilles in many years. I was totally captivated by the Hadar; the decision to make the backgrounds cream-colored rather than stark white contributes to the overall soft feel of the deck. Eliminating the card numbers on the minors forces me to count the pips on each card, but maybe that was the intention. The Jodo-Cam appears more conventional at first glance, but I do keep wondering about those blue arms... The Heron Conver and the Susserre Dodal are next on my list. I've recently realized that I already know how to read pips-only cards; I learned from the companion books to R J Stewart's Merlin and Dreampower tarots, where the Pythagorean system is used without attribution. David Allen Hulse's discussion of the way the Lightning Flash moving through the Sephiroth affects the positive and negative qualities of the minors was a major revelation to me also (see the Tarot section of vol. 2, The Western Mysteries.) I'm not yet a convert to Marseille exclusivism but I did recently go out and sell off all my RWS style decks.

jmd	11 Dec 2004
...so, why do others use this wonderful deck?

Paul	11 Dec 2004
jmd wrote: the Marseille remains not a 'a virgin deck waiting to be impregnated with knowledge', but a deck already impregnated and rich in symbolism waiting to be unveiled by the loving gaze and understanding of its beholder. Exquisitely stated. {Well, I'm fairly new to the forum, I haven't stated my position yet. Of course, this is my personal opinion only...};) From the moment I became interested in Tarot, I was attracted to the TdM. I wanted to use a Tarot that was primordial, not modern derivations. I also followed RWS and clones, as well as the CH Thoth. How could you not, in America anway? Here, RWS and CH Thoth were Tarot for many years; it seemed that these two prototypes were breeding like rabbits producing a menagerie of variations, some with overlayed themes like dragons, elves, etc. Then, with computer graphics have come a sort of Tarot-Meets-Las Vegas style deck. No, no, no. Not for me, anyway. It seemed to me that Tarot had been successfully read by our predecessors without the Minor Arcana cartooned scenes of the RWS or the suffocatingly-packed Major Arcana images of the CH Thoth. Indeed, I was wholly unsatisfied with the "cartoons" on the RWS-- it was like Tarot had become simply a Thematic Apperception Test (a psychological test: The 31 picture cards included in the TAT are used to stimulate stories or descriptions about relationships or social situations and can help identify dominant drives, emotions, sentiments, conflicts and complexes). Although, I understand that some do read the tarot in a TAT-type way, successfully. As well, the Crowley-fied images simply didn't fit for me with my taste for the simple (but not simplistic), elegant TdM European imagery. Especially the Majors, in Thoth's case, were crammed so full of occult imagery that the forest seemed lost for the trees. However, proof was in the pudding, so to speak. This is my finding only, but when I compared my readings with the TdM and the RWS/Thoth, I found that my readings with the TdM were more specific/detailed/insightful than with the RWS. This seems paradoxical, because most people when first transitioning from the RWS to the TdM lament, especially in the case of the minors, "but, there's no imagery for me to grab onto!" Yet, it seems that the lack of gross visual data that allowed me to just fall backwards into the simple, subtle, and elegant visual play of the TdM. It goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway, in no way is the above position a moral judgment on those who enjoy the RWS or Thoth decks . They are as much a part of Tarot tradition as the TdM. It's simply about personal taste and shaping-experiences.

northsea	11 Dec 2004
My first deck was a TdM-based deck, the Tarot Classic, as I always preferred the TdM majors. However, I couldn't see any meaning in the pips, and the numerology, etc. wasn't lending much meaning for me either. Then I read with the RWS, and the RWS minors provided much more for me in the way of DMs. I look at the minors as basically mundane, that is, psychological, versus the spiritual Majors. So the RWS minors work for me since they lend much more psychological meaning than the TdM pips. (Maybe it's the Majors that should be pips since they're much more abstract!) That said, I really like Paul's system for reading the minors, and would like to read with pips minors, also.

Moonbow*	11 Dec 2004
Paul, wonderful post I first picked up a Marseilles deck about a year ago, firstly to try and understand why this deck was so special - the art work seemed so primitive and bland to me, the colours are few and some of the detail seemed very unrealistic, surely there was something to this deck - other than the interest that the historians had in it? (Which, of course, I had no idea about). :) So, I bought one, and plunged into the Marseilles threads (probably much to the anoyance of those who are experts - but hey! that's me) :D I never had any intention of giving up on the other decks I liked, most of which, on reflection, I have for the art work and appreciation of the artist's take on symbolism (and this still intrigues me). But, having had a couple of 'blank' periods where I could see nothing in any cards, I picked up my Marseilles decks again. These are the only decks at the moment that seem to hold my interest. Each time I look at a card I see something that sets me off looking through old threads or even googling. I'm loving it! Now I'm off to find Paul's method for reading the minors........ so much to do and so much to read.

Diana	11 Dec 2004
Moonbow* wrote: [b] So, I bought one, and plunged into the Marseilles threads (probably much to the anoyance of those who are experts - but hey! that's me) :D There are no Marseilles experts, really. It's a term that is sometimes used to describe some of the great Marseilles tarologists, but it is a term I think that they would not like. I know I've used it myself to describe one or two people whom I admire very much when it comes to their Tarot of Marseilles knowledge, (Hadar and Bocher, to mention just two), but I wish I hadn't used this word. It reduces them to some kind of technician which they are not. Trouble is, I can't find the correct word to describe these people who seem to know so much.... and therefore.... so little. (Because the more you know, the more you realise how little you know.)

Paul	11 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: There are no Marseilles experts, really. It's a term that is sometimes used to describe some of the great Marseilles tarologists, but it is a term I think that they would not like. Yes Diana, I must say that, when others have kindly quoted the French authors on the TdM, I at first say "Oooh! Here it comes: manna from heaven." Then, I read it and sometimes think "Well, gosh, I figured that out already," or "Hmmm, not sure I agree with that." So, I have discovered that the TdM, for all of its archetypal energy and historical iconography, it is intensely personal.

Diana	11 Dec 2004
Paul: Isn't it true that when an idea is ready to be born, many people will have that same idea at about the same time? (It was like this with the invention of the telephone, for instance.) And there is nothing hidden in the Tarot - it is an open book for all to explore. But that being said, there are truly some great tarologists out there. But as an initiate, or at least someone who has gone a long way on their initiatory journey, knows how to remain silent (it is in secret that things are secreted), they often do not share with us their discoveries... only show us the way so that we can discover it ourselves. They are the true Hermits. It is behind the veil of the Papess that Wisdom lies. And not there outside the Temple, where the Bateleur picks up his Tools, folds up his three-legged table and prepares for the Journey through the Arcana.

Paul	11 Dec 2004
Hmmm. That effectively answers my other post to you at Cavalier de Coupe.

Diana	11 Dec 2004
Paul wrote: Hmmm. That effectively answers my other post to you at Cavalier de Coupe . Why, have you decided to pack up your tools as well? In that case, you could perhaps give me some advice. I've folded up my table, but I don't know what to do with it. It's going to be very cumbersome on my journey so I think I should leave it behind. Do you think I should store it somewhere, or give it as a gift to someone else?

Cerulean	11 Dec 2004
I am sorry, but I seemed to miss what date that your favorite Marseilles would be that have all the historic encodings that you favor? Are they previous to the Etteilla variations of the late 1700s through 1800s? I like the Swiss Marsiglia of 1804 in terms of a pretty printing--but I read it as I do the Italian Viscontis to the Di Gumppenbergs. I am amused at the early 1650-1680's variations of Tarot de Paris and Vieville and like the regional variations of the late 1600s 1700's in terms Minchiate (Florence/Etruria) and Bologna (Mitelli/Zoni), but don't really use them in readings for others. Thanks for any answers... Cerulean P.S. I found out recently that one of my Edition Dussierre Etteilla's was similar to an early 20th century version that Grimaud published. The earlier Grimaud and Edition Dussierre Etteilla differed then a later 1970's version of the Grimaud's Grand Etteilla (Gypsy)--the cards had different designs and coloring. So if you can also include the date of publication and publisher, I may be able to find that your Marseilles differs from what might be out around now...

Diana	11 Dec 2004
Cerulean: Vieville, Tarot de Paris and Bologna are not considered Tarot of Marseilles decks. (Cousins.) I don't know the Swiss Marsiglia. It's usually not listed as a Tarot of Marseilles. Must be a cross betweeen two decks. Personally, my main reference decks are the Dodal Dusserre, the Hadar and the Grimaud. The Camoin is used by some, but not by me. The Conver, I also use as a reference, although this deck has a strangely different energy to the other Marseilles decks. It has the same basic perfume, but there is something different to it (as if another "alchemical" formula was used to create it) which makes it quite special. Wonderfully special. But it is definitely a Tarot of Marseilles in spite of this. And I wouldn't part with this deck for anything. (What I said about the Conver deck above is not something that I have ever discussed with anyone... nor read anywhere and as I'm no expert... I would suggest you don't pay any attention.) I would love to be able to refer to the Payen deck... but it doesn't exist. :(

Paul	11 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: I would love to be able to refer to the Payen deck... but it doesn't exist. :( The Tarot de Nostradamus is spookily close to the Payen, from my examination. Very subtle differences (of course, titles are different on the cards). Don't know what others have said about this. The TdN is readily available.

Lee	11 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: I don't know the Swiss Marsiglia. It's usually not listed as a Tarot of Marseilles. Must be a cross betweeen two decks.:( If the Swiss Marsiglia is the one I'm thinking of, I used to have this deck, and it is very definitely a Marseilles. The deck that was photographed for it was very roughly printed, so much so that I found it distracting, and traded it away. The titles have many misspellings. It's printed on unlaminated cardstock with sharp, unrounded corners. It came in a hard box with a lift-off lid. Is that the one, Cerulean? EDITED TO ADD: This is it: http://www.trigono.com/tarots/tarocco-marsigliese-svizzero.htm -- Lee

Diana	11 Dec 2004
That's a very odd looking Ace of Cups. Lee, I've looked all over for other scans of more cards, to no avail. If you ever find a link (even in the future), could you let me know please?

Lee	11 Dec 2004
I found some more scans: Go to The Tarot Garden and do a search for: Tarocco di Marsiglia (Svizzera) Then click the "More Samples" button. -- Lee

Lee	11 Dec 2004
You can see the Judgement card here, the top row on the left: http://www.libroelibri.com/meneghello02.htm

Lee	11 Dec 2004
Here's some more (I'm on a roll!) http://www.playingcardsales.co.uk/cards/moreimages/12908_6_tarocco_di_marsiglia.jpg

Diana	11 Dec 2004
Thanks Lee. It's almost a Marseilles deck. But not quite. (For instance, the Hermit has his hood over his head. And like I said, the Ace of Cups is too far off.)

Lee	11 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: It's almost a Marseilles deck. But not quite. Sez you! :) -- Lee

Cerulean	11 Dec 2004
--the funny 12.99 one that Mark Filpas reviewed: http://www.tarotpassages.com/TarotSet-mf.htm My guess is this that one that might be considered Marseilles. The Marsiglia 1804 thus seems like one of the goofy variations by some...I'll check out the Nostradamus one at some point and cross reference 'Payen'. Thanks. Regards Cerulean

Rusty Neon	11 Dec 2004
Cerulean wrote: --the funny 12.99 one that Mark Filpas reviewed: http://www.tarotpassages.com/TarotSet-mf.htm My guess is this that one that might be considered Marseilles. That one most definitely is a Tarot de Marseille deck. In 1960, Camoin Publishers used the 1760 Conver TdM plates, with 1880 colours, and printed a Bicentennial Conver deck. The Thunder Bay Press edition referred to in Mark Filipas' review is a recent photoreproduction of that 1960-printed deck.

Tarot Sparrow	11 Dec 2004
I never liked the Tarot de Marseille, until I saw the Soprafino. In most, I think the colours are too much really, and the artwork is ugly. I just got the limited edition Soprafino though, and I love it. The colours are more muted and pretty, and the images differ from the standard Marseille as far as I can tell...the people look realistic and their appearance along with the colouring and the "old" look and feel of the deck make it seem quite beautiful. I am looking forward to studying this one. It really does make me feel as though I'm living in 1835. Stunning.

Rusty Neon	11 Dec 2004
Dead Star, I am on the verge of getting the Soprafino :)

Diana	12 Dec 2004
Dead Star wrote: I never liked the Tarot de Marseille, until I saw the Soprafino. In most, I think the colours are too much really, and the artwork is ugly. I just got the limited edition Soprafino though, and I love it. The colours are more muted and pretty, and the images differ from the standard Marseille as far as I can tell...the people look realistic and their appearance along with the colouring and the "old" look and feel of the deck make it seem quite beautiful. I am looking forward to studying this one. It really does make me feel as though I'm living in 1835. Stunning. The Soprafino is a very beautiful Italian deck. It's not a Tarot of Marseilles. One doesn't read a Tarot of Marseilles for its "artwork", by the way. One reads it for what lies behind each detail, each symbol, each wink of the eye....

jmd	12 Dec 2004
As described in the link, the 'Swiss Tarot of Marseilles (Switzerland, 1804)' is a Besançon style prior to the replacement of II and V with Junon and Jupiter. In that sense, it really should perhaps be properly called a Besançon-Schaffhouse style deck, very similar in style to the Marseille - I have not seen XII Le Pendu, but if it has both feet tied, this would confirm its Schaffhouse influence. ...of course, the opening question is 'WHY do people use the Tarot de Marseille?'. It is simply exquisite. Even the Vieville and Paris decks have clearly imagery which is embedded with a plethora of allegorical and symbolic detail... To make a deck esoterically does not need to have had the influence of Eteilla or later authors on the Tarot's symbolic and esoteric aspects. Rather, the reverse is already the case: those authors could see within the deck something more significant than the mere game may suggest.

Shalott	12 Dec 2004
OK - I have a WHY: not only the ancientness, the "UR" factor, but readability, too: when I look at modern, occulty, or what I've come to think of as "art" type decks, whereas aesthetically many of them are gorgeous, I just don't get as much out of them. The colors in Marseille each have a specific meaning, the type of hats the figures are wearing have a specific meanings, the direction the figure is looking has a specific meaning. To read the pips one must learn at least some numerology (I highly recommend the epically-proportioned companion book to the Pythagorean Tarot), + element + flora imagery, although knowing a leaf from a bud from a blossom to a flower seems most significant. And one can also tie the pip with the corresponding major (7's would all carry some aspects of Le Chariot, for example). This gives each pip such a range of meaning - it's helped my intuition grow from practically nothing to something I can work with. At first, I was put off, too, by the pips which seemed impossible to decode, and the fact that I had a Marseille deck: this THING that US Games published, which, incidentally, I still think is hideous and I won't use it. Then I saw the Hadar: much easier on the eyes, downright beautiful once I finally "got" it. This led to Camoin, Grimaud, several others which are all beautiful to me now. And I like the structure. I don't like to be left to "make it up as I go," which seems to be what a lot of ppl like to do. If it works for them, fine, but I've found more freedom within the Marseille structure than I ever did anywhere else.

Moongold	12 Dec 2004
I like to read with the Marseilles for the same reasons given by Shalott in different measure. One cannot love the Tarot without exploring the Marseilles and coming to love it as well. I learned what I know of most of those skills through other means however.. That was simply my path. What I have learned through the Marseilles has enriched my understanding of the Tarot beyond what it would have been otherwise. It has been a natural progression but not a linear one. The Ancient Egyptian, the Fournier Marseilles and the Tarot of the Spirit are my favourite decks. Each uses symbolism, numerology, mythology, colour and astrology in different ways I have undoubtedly much more to learn about the Marseilles. Hopefully I can continue to learn here in an environment which encourages curiosity, openness, integrity and diversity.

Rusty Neon	12 Dec 2004
Shalott wrote: this THING that US Games published, which, incidentally, I still think is hideous and I won't use it. :) Believe it or not, the US Games/Carta Mundi Tarot of Marseilles deck is one of my favourite TdM decks. With the exception of its 3 of Swords (which has vegetation added by the artist, à la Conver), the US Games/Carta Mundi deck rather faithfully follows the line-drawings of the 1701 Jean Dodal Tarot de Marseille (with relatively few artistic liberties) but uses a different colour scheme/layout. Yes, the Dodal's art is more primitive than the Conver's, so it may not be as aesthetically pleasing to some people, but the Dodal is still most definitely a Marseille. :) I have grown to like the art of the Dodal and the US Games/Carta Mundi. The US Games/Carta Mundi nicely complements the 1701 Dodal (Dusserre) photoreproduction deck that I have. Be aware that US Games has stopped distributing the Carta Mundi deck, but that some retailers (and wholesalers) may still have it in stock.

Fudugazi	12 Dec 2004
One of the reasons that attracts people to the Tarot de Marseille is that unlike other decks that are either representations of a past culture (Egyptian Tarot, Arthurian Tarot, Mythic Tarot), or of a given esoteric society (Thoth, Rider Waite), the Tarot de Marseille is an expression of a culture in itself. Its difference with, say, the Mythic Tarot is the difference between reading Mary Renault's excellent historical novels about Ancient Greece, and reading Aeschylus and Pindar. The diffrence between Rider Waite or Thoth decks and the Marseille Tarot is the difference between the beliefs of a relatively small sect expressed in symbolic form, and the common iconographic usage developed over the ages and familiar to the medieval and early modern men who developed the Tarot and to the users of the cards at that time, and which we must, necessarily, extrapolate. I think part of the attraction for 21st century Marseille tarot lovers lies in the necessary work of investigation into what was once well-known iconography, and which has now been half-forgotten. On a cultural level, there would be more parallel to be drawn with postmodern decks - collages of different cultures, computer-generated images, etc., all of which will one day probably be considered expressions of our early 21st century Western culture, with all its borrowings, fusions and the particular pick-and-mix aspect of all our cultural manifestations, from spirituality to literature to music, through cooking and dancing. Much of the iconography used in those decks is familiar to us (the mind boggles at the idea of 25th Century tarot lovers of the Ancestral Path discussing among themselves the true significance of the juxtaposition of an African woman petting a lion, an upside-down foetus and a girl going through a looking-glass...). I think one of the problems that the Marseille deck generates between its numerous lovers, is that some are drawn to it because it represents such a unified expression of culture - hence the "purism"; and others, because it is part of their ever-extending delight in discovering and fusing the variety of the world (a postmodern approach). It's a clash that goes far beyond tarot, of course, but that's for another forum...})

Cerulean	12 Dec 2004
"historical" for Tarot de Marseille and "modern" for "other" decks. I enjoy the reproductions of the Ettiella, Visconti, pre-Marseille and the Lombard-Milanese patterns as being expressions of a subculture in themselves. Helvetica's elegant phrasing from her post with substitutions: One of the reasons that attracts people to the "historical" is that unlike "modern" decks that are either representations of a past culture (Egyptian Tarot, Arthurian Tarot, Mythic Tarot), or of a given esoteric society (Thoth, Rider Waite), the Tarot de Marseille is an expression of a culture in itself. Thanks for the clarifying thoughts, Regards, Cerulean

baba-prague	12 Dec 2004
Helvetica wrote: Its difference with, say, the Mythic Tarot is the difference between reading Mary Renault's excellent historical novels about Ancient Greece, and reading Aeschylus and Pindar. It's a clash that goes far beyond tarot, of course, but that's for another forum...}) You express this very well - thanks for that. I would just add that I hope it doesn't have to be a clash (although I agree, that sadly the discussion often seems to become a battle). Personally I have, for example, read quite a lot of medieval literature in the original, but I have also very much enjoyed reading modern novels that draw on medieval themes, or are set in those times ("Name of the Rose" being the obvious one that everyone has read). I enjoy both, I value both, and I don't see one as more worthy of my attention than the other (assuming both to be good examples of their type). I hope we can take the same attitude to tarot.

Fudugazi	12 Dec 2004
Cerulean wrote: Helvetica's elegant phrasing from her post with substitutions: One of the reasons that attracts people to the "historical" is that unlike "modern" decks that are either representations of a past culture (Egyptian Tarot, Arthurian Tarot, Mythic Tarot), or of a given esoteric society (Thoth, Rider Waite), the Tarot de Marseille is an expression of a culture in itself. Thanks for the epithet ;) Given that RW dates back almost a hundred years and Thoth to between the two world wars, they'd qualify as "historical" as well. I don't much care for the qualifier "historical", which implies intellectual importance, but not much relevance to us today. Shakespeare is "historical", as are Aeschylus and the modernists TS Eliot and James Joyce - all are expressions of the culture of their age, all have lasted and are read or produced regularly. As has the Tarot de Marseille, both as a reading and as a playing deck (i.e. not only a collector's item). I see where you want to get, but how to say it without making things not made yesterday appear old hat and irrelevant? As for "modern": what's modern in the postmodern age ? ;)

L'Etoile	12 Dec 2004
Some people may be drawn to the symbolism, some people to its purism, but I'm not drawn to it at all. Now, I'm no psychic, the main reason I can read Tarot is simply that I've got a really good memory. Of course I rely on the symbolism, and I can see how that would draw some people to that deck. But I've found other decks with just as much symbolism and nuance, but with much more aestheticaly appealing images. I prefer decks I WANT to look at.

Fudugazi	12 Dec 2004
baba-prague wrote: I would just add that I hope it doesn't have to be a clash (although I agree, that sadly the discussion often seems to become a battle). Personally I have, for example, read quite a lot of medieval literature in the original, but I have also very much enjoyed reading modern novels that draw on medieval themes, or are set in those times ("Name of the Rose" being the obvious one that everyone has read). I enjoy both, I value both, and I don't see one as more worthy of my attention than the other (assuming both to be good examples of their type). I hope we can take the same attitude to tarot. Exactement! But you realise we are being very postmodern in thinking that way! ;) Sadly, I think the clash is inevitable, in Tarot, literature, religion or any other cultural construct. It's the age we live in :( A kind of XIII age, I think...messy, but ultimately will lead to some very fresh thinking. BTW- as the Tarot of Prague creator you must have been fascinated by all the signs and symbolism in the Name of the Rose (the book).

Diana	12 Dec 2004
baba-prague wrote: I would just add that I hope it doesn't have to be a clash (although I agree, that sadly the discussion often seems to become a battle). The battle(s) you refer to baba-prague, I think you are referring to those that take place on Aeclectic?? If these are what you are referring to, I think they are very often a clash of personalities due to the nature of an internet forum. Very frequently, it is not WHAT someone says, but WHO says it, that causes the conflicts. The clashes are very often on a completely different level to what it appears on the surface.

Moongold	12 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: Very frequently, it is not WHAT someone says, but WHO says it, that causes the conflicts. The clashes are very often on a completely different level to what it appears on the surface. Quite delightfully open, Diana. Maybe a study of the Marseilles would shed some light on the playing of this kind of politics. An ancient theme indeed. Or do some of us simply act out archetypal themes? To bring this back on course, one thing I love about the Marseilles is the character in the Court cards. They seem to have more personality and humanity than the Courts in many other decks. Some of the latter seem somehow imbued with an other worldly aspect, whereas the Marseiles Courts are definitely human. Maybe this is something to do with Helvetica's lovely statement about the Marseilles being an authentic expression of French culture. Even the fact that we call these cards *Courts*, no matter that they appear in other cultural or contemporary decks is significant. I find this kind of humanity most striking in my Fournier, of all the Marseilles. The Courts is this version are imbued with colour and life. And if one wants to find representations of Marseilles characters in contemporary literature and music it is quite easy to do so. Something I have also noticed in the Marseilles readings is that there is most often a gracious courtesy present throughout as if we somehow take on what we imagine to be the civilities of the times. I am steadily discovering other depths in this deck and enjoy these discussions more and more.

Fudugazi	12 Dec 2004
I don't know if anyone's ever posted this link before but I found it while browsing on the net and found it interesting. It lists most Marseille decks, other decks close to Marseille (Swiss and Besançon style), other "historical decks", and a handful of contemporary decks. http://membres.lycos.fr/tarobat/mesjeux/Jeux.htm The text is in French, but there's little of it - mainly it consists of scans of this person's very interesting collection. I saw the Fournier, and it seemed very vivid and lively, Moongold. "Flamenco" said the site owner (a compliment).

Kissa	12 Dec 2004
This thread is very interesting to read indeed. But WHY do ppl read with TdM decks? Well... 1) The designs are crude and pips look all the same (ugly btw). These TdM readers like to hurt their eyes obviously. 2) The meanings are just to be learnt by heart with a mysterious connection between numerology and colours/suits system. These readers like to lock their soul by not allowing any intuition to interfere in the process. 3) The tradition is so old, the images and titles don't refer to anything we meet in our daily life any longer. These readers like to deny their hearts the right to dive into the wonderful global monicultural societey we are living in. Must it that, right? K.

Fudugazi	12 Dec 2004
Kissa wrote: Must it that, right? You tell us, Kissa ! - under your profile I saw: Favourite Tarot Decks: Tarot de Marseille: Hadar, Camoin-Jodorowsky, Fournier, Conver }) What, no Dodal?? ;)

Moongold	12 Dec 2004
Kissa wrote: This thread is very interesting to read indeed. But WHY do ppl read with TdM decks? Well... 1) The designs are crude and pips look all the same (ugly btw). These TdM readers like to hurt their eyes obviously. 2) The meanings are just to be learnt by heart with a mysterious connection between numerology and colours/suits system. These readers like to lock their soul by not allowing any intuition to interfere in the process. 3) The tradition is so old, the images and titles don't refer to anything we meet in our daily life any longer. These readers like to deny their hearts the right to dive into the wonderful global monicultural societey we are living in. Must it that, right?K. No! Some of us say it does not have to be like that. I think one can very intuitive with the Marseilles. I thought I was in my Aeclectic Community Culture Reading. I have done other readings with the Marseilles which were intuitive. I might not always choose the Marseilles to use, however. Sometimes other decks seems more appropriate.

Kissa	12 Dec 2004
Helvetica wrote: You tell us, Kissa ! - under your profile I saw: Favourite Tarot Decks: Tarot de Marseille: Hadar, Camoin-Jodorowsky, Fournier, Conver }) What, no Dodal?? ;) Dammit! Should have updated that darn profile... :P And what about YOURS? "Favourite hobbies": number one -> CENSORED ;) We are slowly but most certainly derivating off-topic, my dear... K.

Moongold	12 Dec 2004
As if I am not deviant enough already :(

Fudugazi	12 Dec 2004
Kissa wrote: Dammit! Should have updated that darn profile... :P And what about YOURS? "Favourite hobbies": number one -> CENSORED ;) We are slowly but most certainly derivating off-topic, my dear... K. No, no, not if we talk about VI -L'Amoureux, XV - le Diable, not to mention XVIIII - le Soleil Let no-one tell me these are ugly and not evocative! (though right now it is more like XII - Le Pendu :( ) I like your profile btw.

Anna	12 Dec 2004
kissa wrote: These TdM readers like to hurt their eyes obviously. Not my eyes, but the eyes of my querents.... My tarot reading is being sponsored by a multi-national eye-wear company and it is our beleif that we will dramatically increase spectacle sales through the useage of the Marseilles :D (I wear special protection goggles when I read so as to prevent damage)

Shalott	12 Dec 2004
Rusty Neon wrote: :) Believe it or not, the US Games/Carta Mundi Tarot of Marseilles deck is one of my favourite TdM decks. With the exception of its 3 of Swords (which has vegetation added by the artist, à la Conver), the US Games/Carta Mundi deck rather faithfully follows the line-drawings of the 1701 Jean Dodal Tarot de Marseille (with relatively few artistic liberties) but uses a different colour scheme/layout. Yes, the Dodal's art is more primitive than the Conver's, so it may not be as aesthetically pleasing to some people, but the Dodal is still most definitely a Marseille. :) I have grown to like the art of the Dodal and the US Games/Carta Mundi. The US Games/Carta Mundi nicely complements the 1701 Dodal (Dusserre) photoreproduction deck that I have. Be aware that US Games has stopped distributing the Carta Mundi deck, but that some retailers (and wholesalers) may still have it in stock. OR PM and and I'll send a barely used one to ya for shipping only! ;) Rusty, I am agape!!! I have the Duserre Dodal and never ever in a million years would have put the two together. Sheesh. Shows ya what I know! (I mean, I didn't doubt that it was a Marseille, but I thought maybe Stu Kaplan's grandkids threw it together from the looks of it. D'oh!) CharmingPixie: ROFLMAO!!! Next time at the eye dr's I'm going to have to ask for the special Marseille Reading contacts! :D

Shalott	13 Dec 2004
Kissa wrote: This thread is very interesting to read indeed. But WHY do ppl read with TdM decks? Well... 1) The designs are crude and pips look all the same (ugly btw). These TdM readers like to hurt their eyes obviously. 2) The meanings are just to be learnt by heart with a mysterious connection between numerology and colours/suits system. These readers like to lock their soul by not allowing any intuition to interfere in the process. 3) The tradition is so old, the images and titles don't refer to anything we meet in our daily life any longer. These readers like to deny their hearts the right to dive into the wonderful global monicultural societey we are living in. Must it that, right? K. These things are simply not true. At first glance, yes the pips do look a like. But at second...then third...a very different story emerges. Yes there is a simplicity in the art, but there is SO much depth in this simplicity. It's fine if you don't agree, but you're making pronouncement about things you haven't really studied, so it seems. The meanings of those same pips aren't solely memorizations. Yes you must know some numerology...but Waite's deck (and most clones) follow the same system, just not overly consistently, IMHO. To me, those pictures lock me into one single meaning more than the multi-layered (to borrow Paul's term) system, which has incidentally helped MY intuition develop exponentially in a short time. The card titles are in French. It can be argued that Waite's translations (which most modern decks borrow, which is why I use him as an example) aren't necessarily the "best" translation, but the concepts are pretty much the same: do we no longer deal with Justice? Qualities of the Sun or the Moon? Or the Hermit? You are more than free to disagree with me, but when you make declarative statements that are just plain incorrect, I'm sorry, but I couldn't keep my typin' fingers silent. Unless I am WAY off base and you were joking, in which case I humbly apologize for misunderstanding...

Tarot Sparrow	13 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: The Soprafino is a very beautiful Italian deck. It's not a Tarot of Marseilles. One doesn't read a Tarot of Marseilles for its "artwork", by the way. One reads it for what lies behind each detail, each symbol, each wink of the eye.... Sorry Diana, I worded that wrong. It's not a Marseilles deck, but it is Marseilles BASED isn't it? I mean, it's so similar. It makes that type of deck more accessible for me. I know it's not meant to be read for the art either; just saying that I personally read illustrated decks better, and any art that is in Marseilles decks just puts me off them. This one is quite similar though and I love it for what it is... P.S. Rusty Neon, you will love your deck :)

Diana	13 Dec 2004
Dead Star: I was not so much correcting you, as your statement. (If it had gone uncorrected, it may have led other people who do not know anything about Historical decks on the wrong track.) No, the Soprafino is not based on the Tarot of Marseilles. But there are similarities. And I agree with you that it is a truly lovely deck to behold. :)

Eco74	13 Dec 2004
Why use the Marseilles? Well, firstly I'll admit that I was repulsed by the look of the cards. Crude, badly colored, faded and dull, not saying much at all.. But I got one anyway, for studies. When the Lets Marseilles-threads started I decided to try it and did a reading with my Spanish Tarot (a Marseilles-based deck and what I now feel is a very pretty one indeed) and it gave me such a lot of flashes and hints even when I drew a pipcard that I've never looked back since. I do still dearly love my RWS and clones of many colors and styles, but also the Marseilles. The art is crude, woodcuts and old as they are, but this does not mean that the images are outdated or limited to only a certain people, tradition or type of reading. The Marseilles uses simple imagery that speaks bundles regardless of the question you put forth. If you are willing and able to tune into them that is.. Since the Lets Marseilles-threads started I have also increased my intuition, so 'lock the mind' it most certainly does not.. For me it has been much the opposite and I've found that reading with my other decks has also worked a lot better since I delved into the Marseilles. It's as if a huge window has opened (to the west I believe) and it is letting in the light, letting me see the horizon and lets me view the setting sun in such glory I'd never dreamt of before. Just looking through a TdeM is somewhat dull when it comes to going thorugh the pips, for they are indeed very similar. But in a reading, they come to life somehow. They move, shift, breathe and whisper. Sometimes they seem to be screaming and just about ready to jump out of the card. And after the reading, looking through the deck, they turn right back to crude woodcuts again. This is the magic of the Marseilles that I've encountered. I'm sure it works a little differently for all of us.

Diana	13 Dec 2004
Moongold wrote: Maybe this is something to do with Helvetica's lovely statement about the Marseilles being an authentic expression of French culture. Even the fact that we call these cards *Courts*, no matter that they appear in other cultural or contemporary decks is significant. I can't find that statement of Helvetica's. (I find something similar, but not that the Marseilles is an authentic expression of French culture.) Well, whether she said it or not, I have to say something here. To say that the Marseilles is an expression of French culture, made me nearly fall off my chair. Dozens of threads in the Historical section about its iconography and history attest to its Universality. Some French people (not all - many still think the Tarot is a parlour-game) have realised what a great legacy the Ancients left us. The fact that the Tarot of Marseilles was born in what is geographically termed as France obviously facilitates this. But that's all. Even Japanese people relate to the Tarot of Marseilles - and everyone knows how different their culture is to Western culture. I have a feeling that you maybe meant something else Moongold. But if I jumped - then perhaps others did as well, or even worse... some may read this as saying "The Tarot of Marseilles is French." I'm not sure what you mean when you speak about "Courts". Could you please explain? (This is an English term for these 16 arcana - in other languages, those cards are not called "Courts". I would be curious to hear what the term for themm in Spanish, Italian and other languages is.)

Major Tom	13 Dec 2004
Kissa wrote: 3) The tradition is so old, the images and titles don't refer to anything we meet in our daily life any longer. It may be an old tradition but it is definitely still alive. There are a number of recent additions to the tradition. I would beg to differ regarding meeting anything we meet in our daily lives. Do check out my deck, which attempts to dress the characters in modern clothing. Perhaps you've encountered these people, you will have encountered the archtypes? I thought Moongold's comment about people acting out archtypes was incredibly astute. :) Some folks will always have trouble with the Pope/Heirophant/High Priest. }) I think we can share the label 'tradition' as long as we specify which tradition we're talking about. I've decided to talk about the tradition of the Marseilles. ;)

Diana	13 Dec 2004
I have no problems relating History to my 21st Century life. For me the Greek and Roman myths and legends are as alive today as they were all those centuries ago. When I read Shakespeare, his words are as vibrant and alive as they were when he wrote them. Time is only linear for our limited human brain. ----------------- Will someone please explain to me what is so "crude" about the Tarot of Marseilles? I have heard this word a number of times in the three years I have been a member of Aeclectic and it has always puzzled me. Is "crude" a technical term used by artists to describe a certain form of artwork? Or is the word "crude" here to be taken in its usual sense that a non-artist would use? Because I have looked and looked and looked, and cannot see any crudeness about these drawings. For instance, the expressions in the eyes of some of the people is so moving... And those flowers and buds and unfurling leaves on the pips, and the interlocking colours of the elements - ever-changing, ever-moving.... are so beautiful! And so expressive! But perhaps this word "crude" is a technical term which I do not understand.

Eco74	13 Dec 2004
Crude = A simplistic and fully functional but not overly decorated or detailed *item* (be it a piece of furniture, a painting, a house or a carved wooden spoon). Something that is crude can still have beauty and meaning in abundance, but is not as decorated or "aestetic" as many of us are used to since the reinessance painters started gaining appreciation. It is not a negative statement in itself but can be interpreted that way if one wants to compare values. Personally I love the crude-ness of the Marseilles because it makes the cards more heartfelt and honest.

Diana	13 Dec 2004
Thank you Eco, for this explanation. I had always thought that "crude" meant kind of "ugly". You know, if one talks of a "crude" person, it's usually not a compliment. Now, even after having read your explanation, I don't find the Tarot of Marseilles crude. I'm still a bit puzzled. Take that Ace of Cups, Two of Cups, or the Three of Cups, or the Four....). Take for instance Le Monde XX... I would say the Marseilles is definitely not OVER-decorated. But it is certainly not under-decorated either. Hardly a day goes past without my noticing another hidden detail.

Moongold	13 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: I can't find that statement of Helvetica's. (I find something similar, but not that the Marseilles is an authentic expression of French culture.) Well, whether she said it or not, I have to say something here. To say that the Marseilles is an expression of French culture, made me nearly fall off my chair. Dozens of threads in the Historical section about its iconography and history attest to its Universality. Helvetica wrote: One of the reasons that attracts people to the Tarot de Marseille is that unlike other decks that are either representations of a past culture (Egyptian Tarot, Arthurian Tarot, Mythic Tarot), or of a given esoteric society (Thoth, Rider Waite), the Tarot de Marseille is … an expression of a culture in itself I think one of the problems that the Marseille deck generates between its numerous lovers, is that some are drawn to it because it represents such a unified expression of culture - hence the "purism"; and others, because it is part of their ever-extending delight in discovering and fusing the variety of the world (a postmodern approach). It's a clash that goes far beyond tarot, of course, but that's for another forum.. . Hi Diana ~ I have bolded those parts of Helvetica’s post which led to my statement. I know that she has not said French but my somewhat imperfect knowledge of history leads me to assume that the Marseilles was developed in France and therefore would reflect French culture principally. I also am associating with something Helvetica said to me in other another forum or by PM about the French association with the Marseilles. Unfortunately I don’t have access to the detail of that.. Helvetica is simply saying that the Marseilles expression of a culture in itself is what attracts its devotees. That seemed a very astute observation and it is one which appeals to me as well. The statement is repeated in the second quote. I must comment that this is one of the things which appeals to me about the Marseilles as well. In many ways, it is more human that many decks c.f Marguerite Petersen., Thoth, Shining Tribe. I know I have only answered part of your question but I am very tired tonight and have some work to do before sleep. Many blessings

Diana	13 Dec 2004
Thank you for pointing out the quote which I couldn't find, Moongold. I am trying to piece things together between the two threads which are concurrently running and which overlap at times. Perhaps Helvetica, when she logs-on, will be able to explain what she meant by "culture". Perhaps I am misunderstanding her. (Words are easy to misunderstand.)

Fudugazi	13 Dec 2004
For the sake of clarity, I'll repeat what I wrote: that the Tarot de Marseille is an authentic expression of a culture. It's vague, I agree, so I will add - I believe it to be an authentic expression of medieval and early modern French culture, which has now become universal. As Shakespeare is an authentic expression of early modern English culture, but is considered universal, including in Japan (see the film Ran, a fantastic reworking of King Lear). I believe it is only possible to touch the universal if you are profoundly anchored in a culture. The Japanese know that well. And if we are too look closely at elements of most cultures we'll find, I am more and more persuaded, more similarities than differences. The first time I saw the Marseille pips, I thought of those gorgeous islamic decorations on the walls of mosques. I hope you did not hurt your backside too much Diana, falling off that chair ;)

Eco74	13 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: I would say the Marseilles is definitely not OVER-decorated. But it is certainly not under-decorated either. Hardly a day goes past without my noticing another hidden detail. I agree. As I wrote I love the crude-ness of the images, much because they are so honest and frankly because they hide so many lovely details that are just waiting to be discovered if one looks at the card in just the right way. It's a bit like looking at a childs drawing. First you see the bright colors, the simplicity of the image. And then you see the little details. The way the mothers lips are curved in the direction of the child, or the way the wings of the bird seems to carry it in a certain direction, or the shading of the tree, or the colors of the flowers being used in the magnificent dress the princess is wearing, or the way the rays of the sun are shifting towards the tower of the castle in the background. Not that the images themselves are childish, but they are deceptively simple in a similar way. Remember how children can tell an increcible story from a picture that shows just a few things? Take for example a dragon and a crown; "This crown got there because.. See that broken scale on the tail? That happened when... That little puddle by his mouth, thats water, because... This dragon has a friend hiding behind... His claws are all blue because..." and so on. I get that same energetic, joyous feeling when I read with the Marseilles. Like I'm a kid in a candystore and have a bag full of goldcoins so I can buy anything I want.. My imagination running wild and finding light and inspiration in everything. Crude in this case is most definately a good thing. :D

Fudugazi	13 Dec 2004
Eco74 wrote: Crude = A simplistic and fully functional but not overly decorated or detailed *item* (be it a piece of furniture, a painting, a house or a carved wooden spoon). ... Personally I love the crude-ness of the Marseilles because it makes the cards more heartfelt and honest. I have seen some very beautiful "crude" pieces of Scandinavian furniture in the house of Norwegian friends of mine here. And another friend collects "crude" woodcuts from Flanders which are more speaking than many an overdecorated oil painting. For its lovers, its crudeness, its apparent simplicity, seems to add to the joys of reading with the Marseille. Eco - I loved what you said about really discovering the Marseille in reading - i.e. in ACTION.

Diana	13 Dec 2004
Helvetica wrote: For the sake of clarity, I'll repeat what I wrote: that the Tarot de Marseille is an authentic expression of a culture. It's vague, I agree, so I will add - I believe it to be an authentic expression of medieval and early modern French culture, which has now become universal. As Shakespeare is an authentic expression of early modern English culture, but is considered universal, including in Japan (see the film Ran, a fantastic reworking of King Lear). Helvetica: I knew that was what you were meaning to say. ;) But I am VERY VERY happy that you clarified it so beautifully.... :)

Fudugazi	13 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: Now, even after having read your explanation, I don't find the Tarot of Marseilles crude. I'm still a bit puzzled. Take that Ace of Cups, Two of Cups, or the Three of Cups, or the Four....). Take for instance Le Monde XXI... Oh gosh, that Ace of Cups!

Rusty Neon	13 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: The fact that the Tarot of Marseilles was born in what is geographically termed as France obviously facilitates this. http://it.geocities.com/a_pollett/cards43.htm

Kissa	13 Dec 2004
Kissa wrote: This thread is very interesting to read indeed. But WHY do ppl read with TdM decks? Well... 1) The designs are crude and pips look all the same (ugly btw). These TdM readers like to hurt their eyes obviously. 2) The meanings are just to be learnt by heart with a mysterious connection between numerology and colours/suits system. These readers like to lock their soul by not allowing any intuition to interfere in the process. 3) The tradition is so old, the images and titles don't refer to anything we meet in our daily life any longer. These readers like to deny their hearts the right to dive into the wonderful global monicultural societey we are living in. Must it that, right? K. psssssst.... i was joking or not actually, I was refering to how I felt before I started reading with my Hadar deck... Nevermind, I'll keep my jokes private from now on, wouldn't like to disturb the classroom...

baba-prague	13 Dec 2004
Helvetica wrote: BTW- as the Tarot of Prague creator you must have been fascinated by all the signs and symbolism in the Name of the Rose (the book). Very much so. In fact, my post-graduate degree was largely on semiotics, and I used Eco (his writing on semiotics that is) extensively. I suppose it's one reason that I find this "either or" stance on tarots a little hard to understand. Symbols do change their meaning over time, they do move across cultures, and they do get re-interpreted in different contexts. That's part of their beauty and use surely? I try to have a range of decks, and to learn from all of them. I don't think they are all equal (in my eyes) some work better for me, some I admire, some I don't. But I don't think I either want or need, to make a decision only to have one particular genre or type. As you say Helvetica, maybe this IS a very postmodern way of seeing the world. After all, when you think about it, it's simply another form of cultural diversity, which I'm all for :-)

Eco74	13 Dec 2004
Kissa, dear. Voicing the opinions you had before most likely gives a voice to how many others feel so it's more of a good thing really even though there does seem to be a little bit of a misunderstanding going on here.. Others who can't see what's so good about the Marseilles can first bond with what you wrote and go "yes, thats Exactly how I feel about it" and then read what we have to say about it. Hopefully at the end of that some of them, at least a few of them, will go "well, maybe I'll try to give it a second look anyway". See, it's all for the best after all. ;)

Diana	13 Dec 2004
Kissa: Never be quiet please. Your post would have made a wonderful thread in itself. You could have called it: "Kissa's Post". :) (I liked it. You mentioned a number of clichéd misconceptions that people have about the deck. I thought it was a very interesting way of making your point. Obviously, people who don't know you, or haven't followed your recent posts, didn't get your point. But that doesn't matter. The point is.... that you made a point.... and that is all that counts.)

noby	13 Dec 2004
I'm probably going to get some flak for this, and it isn't very PC, but the reason I'm not interested in the Tarot of Marseilles is that I'm not very interested in, and don't feel much of an affinity for, its parent culture and the country of its origin. I actually like the "crude" woodblock art of the majors, and find a lot to like about the idea of working with non-pictoral pips in general, though the aesthetic of the Marseilles pips doesn't do much for me. But the culture the deck is steeped in just rubs me the wrong way; I don't find the delight in things French which many people do. I don't know why I have this prejudice, and don't think it's good or right to have it, but I have to be honest that it's there. And I admit I also have a problem distinguishing something from those who flock around it, and the elitist vibe of the way people hold this deck up as "the deck" gives me an "ick" feeling I just can't disassociate from the Marseilles itself. I have very little tolerance for people who see themselves as being on a "higher level," especially for a reason as silly as their preferred tarot deck. So when I look at the Marseilles deck, I think about all the elitists that coo over it, which gives me a pretty strong aversion to it. Though I do like looking at Marseilles majors from time to time, because I really like the aesthetic. When it comes to older historical decks, I'm much more interested in the Sola Busca, Mantegna, and Visconti-Sforza decks. I feel a connection with those cards that I simply don't feel with the Marseilles. As old as they are, and as different as the cultures they come from are from mine, I relate to them. They speak a language I can understand as my own, and this fills me with wonder. I see such personality in them, and find something sublime in them. The Mantegna cards seem to speak something essential about humanity and the human imagination. I recognize something in the Visconti cards, like an old friend I can't quite place yet know I know, and find them to be so beautiful. They don't have the systemic or mass-produced quality I see in so many tarot decks. There's something horrifying and dark about the Sola Busca cards and the underlying violence in them which I find deeply compelling. I just look at those decks and want to study them, learn more about where they came from, and immerse myself in them, transporting myself to a different time and place. But that connection I feel with those older decks also makes me understand how and why people connect with the Marseilles. I know many people feel the same way about the Marseilles that I feel about these other older decks. And there's just something really amazing about being able to communicate with and understand something from a different time and place, and there's no denying it when you make a personal connection with something that really stirs you and makes you feel connected to something older and greater than yourself. It's a very emotional and deeply personal thing that's not about what's right or wrong, better or worse, but simply about what speaks to you. So I don't see why there's anything strange about liking the Marseilles, but nor do I see it as a deck that people have to connect with in order to "really understand tarot."

Fulgour	13 Dec 2004
Make a careful study and find a Marseille you feel has value histrorically, as a reference perhaps, and just let it take up space... think about all the people that have used this deck for so many centruries. One day, maybe? Edited to add: "French" decks were popular in England, smuggled in or copied, and in Italy having a deck was definitely going to be a problem for some, so "import."

Darla	13 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: The Soprafino is a very beautiful Italian deck. It's not a Tarot of Marseilles. One doesn't read a Tarot of Marseilles for its "artwork", by the way. One reads it for what lies behind each detail, each symbol, each wink of the eye.... First, I want to say that I’m completely fascinated by your love for the Marseilles Decks. But why exactly is it the Marseilles? The teachings of the Golden Dawn in the Rider-Waite and the overload of esoteric symbols in the Crowley Thoth bother me as well. But if you are looking for the origins of the Tarot, why not for example, a Visconti deck? What is so special to the Marseilles and its symbolism that you cannot find in other historic decks? Please note, this isn’t meant to be critical. On the contrary, I’m honestly interested. I have a Marseilles Fournier but so far I haven’t figured out how to read with it properly. I would like to learn it though.

Fudugazi	13 Dec 2004
noby wrote: I'm probably going to get some flak for this, and it isn't very PC, but the reason I'm not interested in the Tarot of Marseilles is that I'm not very interested in, and don't feel much of an affinity for, its parent culture and the country of its origin. That's OK, I know a lot of people who feel no affinity to, and are not interested in, the parent culture of the Robin Wood and the computer graphic designs that come out of your country. I'm not one of them (though I'm in half minds about Robin Wood), but that's it. Some people like France and French art and history, some don't. Some people like the United States, and some don't. One thing I find strange, though, is that you seem to think that the Tarot de Marseille is about France NOW - it's not. It was born in medieval or early modern France, and quickly was adopted as an ordinary tarot deck around Europe. 17th Century France is far more different from 21st century France, than 18th Century United States is from present-day United States. Almost everything has changed there. So is it historical or modern day France you don't like? And what's that got to do with Tarot or your liking for a deck? If some snotty person tells you you MUST see the Titian exhibition, will you deliberately avoid going to see it because you view the person who recommends it as elitist? RE: Italian decks - I agree with you, the Mantegna and Sola Busca are amazing. Mantegna's paintings are very expressive too, btw. Do you read with them? I love them, but to me these decks are very elitist: they were designed for courtly use, whereas the Marseille was very much the ordinary guy's deck.

firemaiden	13 Dec 2004
noby, I understand the point at the end of your post was essentially a positive message - and that you encourage people to connect with a historical deck. I just wanted to say, I have seen others use the word "elitist" in function with the Marseille. Not only do I not understand this accusation, but also the label of "elitist" put on anything makes me sad. The way I see it, "elitism" is a term used to vilify something, which in a kinder day would have been championed - usually something that takes a bit more patience to understand, like classical music, or great books. When I see the word "elitist", I become afraid that we are championing mediocrity instead of excellence, mass market majority instead of creative indivuality. I become concerned that we are going the way of the cultural revolution in China, and will smash the fingers of concert pianists, jail people for harboring violins, or for reading great works of literature. I feel that the intellectual and artistic "elite" need to be vigourously protected against the abuses of cultural faschism. I am also saddened to see expression of anti-French sentiment, and I can't help but suspect that this feeling of repulsion is a reaction coming from fear, not knowledge. It is human nature to reject things we don't know very well or understand. I think when you study the language, the literature, the history and the music, of a culture, and live there, you can't help but fall in love with it. My wish would be for people to remain open, even to things they do not understand at first, and even to things which at first may repulse them.

Moongold	13 Dec 2004
firemaiden wrote: ]I just wanted to say, I have seen others use the word "elitist" in function with the Marseille. Not only do I not understand this accusation, but also the label of "elitist" put on anything makes me sad. The way I see it, "elitism" is a term used to vilify something, which in a kinder day would have been championed - usually something that takes a bit more patience to understand, like classical music, or great books. Firemaiden, generally I would agree with you but the Marseilles advocacy here has been a little polarized. There have been statements about its beauty alongside statements about how it is the only one and that others pale beside it. I think it is beautiful and now enjoy learning about it but at the beginning I felt excluded from the work and this actually occurred. I gently (and privately) protested to Diana and JMD about this exclusion in 2002 when a post I made was ignored by a group of people completely in love with their subject. There were other signals of exclusion as well. I bring this up gently just to validate another point of view. I love things French, My father’s family originated in France (yes …. they went to Scotland in that historic event around 1066 :D) and my surname is clearly of French origin. I’ve always loved the language and am brushing up on it in 2005 because of the Marseilles study here. People need to be brought along with something like this. The need for thoughtfulness and inclusion – of bringing people with you - applies to all cultures and organizations. I think it is happening now at Aeclectic, but we need always to be mindful of it. I do not want to divert the thread which is just becoming very interesting in the discussion between Helvetica and smleite regarding the decoration in the Marseilles and its connections to the influences of Islamic art.

Diana	13 Dec 2004
Moongold wrote: Firemaiden, generally I would agree with you but the Marseilles advocacy here has been a little polarized. There have been statements about its beauty alongside statements about how it is the only one and that others pale beside it. Speaking only for myself, I believe the other tarot decks do pale beside it, and that indeed, it is "the only one which embodies the Essence of The Tarot". (Rather than perhaps "the only one".) And speaking again only for myself, people can pile all the labels they want to on my head, it will not change my beliefs and will not prevent me from continuing to proclaim what I believe. The topic of this thread is: "Why do people use the Tarot of Marseilles". Well, I am not "people", but I can say one of the reasons is that all other tarot decks pale in comparison. Anyway, I reckon, and this I have mentioned before in other threads, that people are not always talking about the same thing when they speak of tarot. The misunderstandings that a lack of consensus of what "Tarot" is, is at the root of a lot of this polarisation that Moongold mentions.

Anna	13 Dec 2004
Diana, you are not alone in your views... I use the Tarot of Marseilles because it feels to me to be close to the essence of Tarot (with a capital T).... and I know that this view is difficult for people to hear. I don't believe there is "one true deck", but I do feel that through my studying and reading, the Tarot of Marseilles is close to the essence. Its just my point of view, which is what the thread is asking for. (I don't ask anyone else to aggree with me!!) But, I've been thinking about this - and I think its important to say that just because I hold this view, it dosn't mean that I think every other deck is worthless. Far from it!! I would never part with my Waking the Wild Spirit deck, or my first RWS deck, and I do very much want to buy a copy of the wonderful Tarot of Prague (I spent a summer in Prague when I was 18 and loved it!) As other people have pointed out, Tarot grows and evolves as does everything else. So I enjoy working with what I beleive to be the essence and root of Tarot, the Tarot of Marseilles, and I also enjoy decks that reflect the evolution and growth of Tarot too. Its kind of like Beethoven and Eminem - I love listening to both. But it is impossible to compare them - there are just no grounds for comparison, but both, I believe, are musical geniuses!

Paul	13 Dec 2004
Moongold wrote: It could explain such a lot about the Marseilles floral decorative art and even the pips. Moongold & others- I just tried starting a Thread on the floral imagery on the Marseille, but Yaboot only replied thus far. I would be open to expanding this to the decorative elements, as well, or they could be separate...no worries. But, I did have an interest in the botanical identity, per se, of these Marseille flowers and their connotations. As I said in the post that began the thread, I appreciate that this topic maybe covered in those threads that address each card, alone. At any rate, now I'm off topic as well. :( Am I now part of the problem or the solution? ;)

Moongold	13 Dec 2004
I am tiring also of the dissension and am no longer sure whether it is healthy debate or not. In an abstract sense I don't think there is such a thing as equality and some things will always have more value than others, depending on who we are and where we come from. I think Charning Pixie puts it beautifully in her Beethoven/Emineme analogy. Last night I was reflecting on this and thinking how parallel our debates must be with debates that would have occurred around the time of the earlest developments of the Marseilles, all mixed up with the the best and the funniest aspects of human, political responses. Diana - you have such profound knowledge of the Marseilles and I would love to see you share more of the content of that in some of these discussions. We know you think the Marseilles is superlative but do you have to say it so much? Instead, invite us with your knowledge and views of content and meaning, more than comparative value, and you would have more Marseilles converts than you could handle. We would be eating out of your hands. I don't want to be involved any more in dissension around this and would be really disappointed if the discussion between Helvetica and Smleite does not continue somewhere else if not here. Thank you, Paul for your invitation. I have to go to work soon and will have a look tonight.

Eco74	13 Dec 2004
Paul wrote: At any rate, now I'm off topic as well. :( Am I now part of the problem or the solution? ;) I'd say solution. You are not only providing another excellent answer but are opening a door to an actual discussion about some of what we have started deviating about. This thread could easily be answered with one sentence, starting with "I read with the Tarot de Marseilles because..." but since the Marseilles does have a tendency to turn into a passion than remaining "just a deck" the substance in any such question just keeps growing. Times like that it is good to have someone come in and point in an alternate direction where it will be easier to discuss the things that have started popping up.

Diana	13 Dec 2004
Moongold wrote: Diana - you have such profound knowledge of the Marseilles and I would love to see you share more of the content of that in some of these discussions. That is sweet of you to say so Moongold, but I know little to nothing about the Tarot of Marseilles. I think maybe once I touched its hem, but I am not sure. Maybe it was just a dream. (If it was a dream - I will cling to it all the same.) I think smleite's and Helvetica's comments would be a WONDERFUL addition to the Historical Forum. I wonder if it would be possible to find a way to move them over there - and if not, perhaps make an exception to the rule (rules only exist due to their exceptions, right?) and make a copy/paste of them. They don't really fit in the Tarot Decks forum - they will get lost here.

firemaiden	13 Dec 2004
The subject of this thread is "Why do people use the tarot of Marseille?" I like Diana's answers to this question, she tells me why she loves it, that is the answer for her. I am grateful to Diana, and to jmd and to all the other people who have taught me that there can be more to a deck than just pretty pictures. (Although... personally, I still prefer the pretty pictures HAHAHAHAH). Divisions? Exclusions? Elitism? I do not join the Marseille Reading group because I'm not interested at the moment. Do I feel excluded? No way!! ***No one can make me feel inferior without my permission!*** What, is there a special handshake or something? To understand the Marseilles do you have to be French? I don't think so. Do you have to be willing to wear an aluminum foil hat? I don't think so. (FM nervously examines inside of hat).

Fudugazi	13 Dec 2004
firemaiden wrote: To understand the Marseilles do you have to be French? I don't think so. Do you have to be willing to wear an aluminum foil hat? I don't think so. (FM nervously examines inside of hat). eh bien, you must be willing to eat lots of baguette and garlic, and bet on the tiercé in smelly cafés and play boules and you must LOVE Pastis (Marseille, ha!).

Rusty Neon	13 Dec 2004
Helvetica wrote: eh bien, you must be willing to eat lots of baguette and garlic, and bet on the tiercé in smelly cafés and play boules and you must LOVE Pastis (Marseille, ha!). Don't forget the Marseilles soap bars. (Easily obtainable in supermarkets on the Quebec side of town here in Ottawa.)

noby	13 Dec 2004
Helvetica wrote: That's OK, I know a lot of people who feel no affinity to, and are not interested in, the parent culture of the Robin Wood and the computer graphic designs that come out of your country. Exactly. And being American, I don't take offense to that. There's a lot of annoying things about American culture and I can see why so many overseas have an instantaneous aversion to it. Hell, there's a lot of American culture I have an instantaneous aversion to, like religious bigotry and Dumbya. Quote: One thing I find strange, though, is that you seem to think that the Tarot de Marseille is about France NOW - it's not. Well, that would be strange, and I don't. I don't hate France as it is now or was in the past. I just don't connect with French culture past or present. And since I don't connect with it, I find it quite difficult to connect with the TdM. Quote: If some snotty person tells you you MUST see the Titian exhibition, will you deliberately avoid going to see it because you view the person who recommends it as elitist? To be honest, maybe... hehe. I've always been something of a contrarian. And I know it's essentially as stupid as being a sheep, and it's not something which I think is one of my better qualities. But if there's something which absolutely everyone thinks is fabulous, and tells me that if I know anything about anything, I'll be into it, my instantaneous reaction is to avoid it. Quote: Do you read with them? I love them, but to me these decks are very elitist: they were designed for courtly use, whereas the Marseille was very much the ordinary guy's deck. No, I don't read with them. I'm just a tarot beginner and have only three decks, none of which are historic. I do like to study their images online, and would certainly enjoy owning copies of them someday, although I'm wary of accumulating more decks than I can use. I think of the Marseilles as being "elitist" because of the way it is regarded today, not because of the deck itself. I personally am interested in what works on a person-to-person basis, and this extends beyond the tarot. I have no patience for people who believe they have the "one right way," whether they're Zen Buddhists or students of tarot. And if I really liked the Marseilles, my distaste for its "followers" would not prevent me from studying it or obtaining it. But I don't feel much of a connection with the deck to begin with, so it's really a non-issue for me. Again, I just tire of people who see things with the perspective that there is one right or superior way, rather than things being a matter of what works for the individual. And I get a lot of that here with the TdM, so as is my nature, I feel compelled to raise my voice of dissent. If someone's favorite tarot deck is the Paris Hilton Tarot With Scratch and Sniff Pips, I don't see them as being essentially inferior in their work with tarot that someone who uses TdM. In my book, the tarot is just a tool. It's a fascinating tool that's enjoyable to study, but that's all. To me, the real point is the connection people get out of it and how they make it work for them and others. I don't think someone needs to understand the history or origins of tarot to make it work, though those things can help some of us who are oriented that way.

Imagemaker	13 Dec 2004
Quote: the Paris Hilton Tarot With Scratch and Sniff Pips This may be the funniest line in this entire forum--ever! And with the right aromas in the pips, the biggest money maker in tarot's history! And definitely one of the most stupid/offensive/outragious American products we could ever produce. But when did that ever stop us :D Noby, you have a future as a millionaire!

Rusty Neon	13 Dec 2004
noby wrote: I think of the Marseilles as being "elitist" because of the way it is regarded today, not because of the deck itself. I personally am interested in what works on a person-to-person basis, and this extends beyond the tarot. I have no patience for people who believe they have the "one right way," whether they're Zen Buddhists or students of tarot. And if I really liked the Marseilles, my distaste for its "followers" would not prevent me from studying it or obtaining it. But I don't feel much of a connection with the deck to begin with, so it's really a non-issue for me. Again, I just tire of people who see things with the perspective that there is one right or superior way, rather than things being a matter of what works for the individual. And I get a lot of that here with the TdM, so as is my nature, I feel compelled to raise my voice of dissent. If someone's favorite tarot deck is the Paris Hilton Tarot With Scratch and Sniff Pips, I don't see them as being essentially inferior in their work with tarot that someone who uses TdM. In my book, the tarot is just a tool. It's a fascinating tool that's enjoyable to study, but that's all. To me, the real point is the connection people get out of it and how they make it work for them and others. I don't think someone needs to understand the history or origins of tarot to make it work, though those things can help some of us who are oriented that way. Well said. Thank you, noby!

noby	13 Dec 2004
firemaiden wrote: When I see the word "elitist", I become afraid that we are championing mediocrity instead of excellence, mass market majority instead of creative indivuality. I become concerned that we are going the way of the cultural revolution in China, and will smash the fingers of concert pianists, jail people for harboring violins, or for reading great works of literature. Whoa there, pardner! I don't get how anyone could get out of what I posted that I was suggesting people should not be allowed to use the Marseilles and think and say anything about it they want. I was making a stand for "creative individuality," actually, by arguing against those who take a stance that a person simply is an inferior tarot reader if they aren't familiar with the TdM. I think it's great people love the TdM, and wouldn't want them to stop loving it. And I wouldn't want to stop people from having the opinion that it's superior, just as I think I should have the ability to disagree. I just think it's a shame folks would smash the emotional and creative fingers of those who simply ain't into TdM by telling them that they are below some imaginary level of tarot expertise. How silly. Quote: I am also saddened to see expression of anti-French sentiment, and I can't help but suspect that this feeling of repulsion is a reaction coming from fear, not knowledge. I wouldn't characterize not liking something as being anti-something. I don't think we should bomb France, or call our fried potatoes "Freedom Fries," or pour French wine down the sewers (though personally, I prefer German wines). I'm not planning to organize a mass burning of TdM decks, or a public wiping of my posterior with the French flag. I just generally don't connect with things French. Nothing more, nothing less. Quote: I think when you study the language, the literature, the history and the music, of a culture, and live there, you can't help but fall in love with it. I'd disagree. I think a lot of times, living and immersing oneself in a culture can inspire scorn as much as love. I know plenty of folks who have lived where I'm from all their lives or have moved here, and the more they get of it, the more they can't stand it. I myself can't wait to drive out of this land of Nascar and Baptist bigotry and get the hell back to California. Quote: My wish would be for people to remain open, even to things they do not understand at first, and even to things which at first may repulse them. I am open to things French, it's just that nine times out of ten, there's some universal quality I can't put into words that just doesn't click with me. I do enjoy the poetry of Baudelaire and Rimbaud, and the philosophical works of Camus. And the ballet. I don't think the place, or anywhere for that matter, is fundamentally screwed or inferior. Lots of good things about it, just that I'm not into most of 'em that I've encountered.

Paul	13 Dec 2004
NOby wrote: If someone's favorite tarot deck is the Paris Hilton Tarot With Scratch and Sniff Pips, I don't see them as being essentially inferior in their work with tarot that someone who uses TdM. Well, now that all depends on whether those are illustrated or unillustrated scratch n' sniff pips. The Paris Hilton motif can stay, because her name is "Paris" -- French. }) Just being an imp.

noby	13 Dec 2004
Moongold wrote: Firemaiden, generally I would agree with you but the Marseilles advocacy here has been a little polarized. There have been statements about its beauty alongside statements about how it is the only one and that others pale beside it. Yeah, exactly. I think I would be more inspired to look into the TdM if the way people talked about it was, "Oh, this deck is so beautiful. I love its many qualities, which are A, B, and C," instead of "The TdM is tarot, and you need to study it to understand tarot." Of course, I don't think people shouldn't be able to have the latter stance, and don't mind seeing it aired. Actually, I find it kind of amusing. It's ripe for parody: "The real tarot experts know the secret of existence is encoded in the Witchy Tarot..." TdM may be the tarot for some, and I can see why it would be. But the idea that it's the tarot for everyone, and that people who don't like it just need to "learn how," smacks of a fascism I don't find tolerable in any context. I love the fact that each individual is different, and has their own way and own perspective, and I strongly resist any movement that puts sameness on a pedestal over diversity. It's the same with me with politics, religion, and anything. What works for me works for me because it works for me, not because I've found the "one right way," and the one way I suppose I am a fascist is that I firmly believe that anyone who thinks their "one right way" is the "one right way" for everyone is mistaken, because the idea of the "one right way" is a phantasmic idea conjured by the ego.

noby	13 Dec 2004
Imagemaker wrote: This may be the funniest line in this entire forum--ever! And with the right aromas in the pips, the biggest money maker in tarot's history! Rusty Neon wrote: Well said. Thank you, noby! Thank you both! :) Paul wrote: Well, now that all depends on whether those are illustrated or unillustrated scratch n' sniff pips. The Paris Hilton motif can stay, because her name is "Paris" -- French. }) Just being an imp. :D

Imagemaker	13 Dec 2004
Often the statement has been made that Marseille users are in the minority (perhaps leading to the tone of shrill assertiveness of its purity), but it seems like the most active threads and most energetic posters are on the Marseille decks. The most passionate energy is here, which is why the threads are fun and interesting. Readers are led to decks by energetic supporters and users. May the positives continue to attract us (the negatives only repel).

Paul	13 Dec 2004
noby wrote: What works for me works for me because it works for me, not because I've found the "one right way," and the one way I suppose I am a fascist is that I firmly believe that anyone who thinks their "one right way" is the "one right way" for everyone is mistaken, because the idea of the "one right way" is a phantasmic idea conjured by the ego. I would find it very ironic to see fundamentalism on a Tarot website. To be honest, I personally have yet to see fundamentalism here , but if I did, what an oxymoron that would be? Look, the question was, why do use the TdM. Asked, and answered. If I think that the TdM is my ticket to the Mother Ship, so what? Conversely, if Rider-Waite-Smith decks rock your world, keep rockin'. If Crowley floats your boat, keep cruisin'. Ummm. Can we have a group hug here? There's room for all of us. See ya' all around.

Diana	14 Dec 2004
Darla wrote: But if you are looking for the origins of the Tarot, why not for example, a Visconti deck? What is so special to the Marseilles and its symbolism that you cannot find in other historic decks? Please note, this isn’t meant to be critical. On the contrary, I’m honestly interested. I have a Marseilles Fournier but so far I haven’t figured out how to read with it properly. I would like to learn it though. Darla: There is no answer to this. (At least not an answer that will satisfy a historian, as historians tend to confuse Tarot cards with Tarot.) Perhaps one day if you decide to study and use the Marseilles deck, you will find an answer. Or perhaps you will find that what it has to offer does not speak to you. You know, I cannot bear listening to opera music. My beloved friend firemaiden is an opera singer. I would love to be able to understand what makes her love that musical form which I run away from.... but I doubt she will ever be able to explain. Because some things are understood with the HEART, and with the SOUL, and not with words. I feel deep down inside me, that when I listen to my Grunge, or my Metal, or my Hip-Hop and Rap... that there is a Higher Form of Music which my soul is not attuned to. It does not make me feel inferior to firemaiden... oh no.... I would LOVE to introduce her to the subtleties of Grunge. (Paula: do you want me to send you some Grunge for Christmas? :D :D :D ). But nevertheless, I would one day love to be able to experience the magical moments that she must feel when she listens to and sings her opera. I have a very funny feeling that those feelings must be akin to those I feel when I touch the hem of the Tarot of Marseilles and when I lose my breath in the face of its Wisdom and Power and Glory. I have a few decks that are non-Marseilles which I cherish. (Cherish is a word I choose carefully.) The Crystal Tarot, and the Vision Quest are two that come to mind. They both transport me onto lovely by-ways which would make me a poorer person if I had not visited them. I use the Majors from the Tarot of Prague frequently and they lead me onto different by-ways. But when I want to get back on the Highway, I use my Marseilles decks.

Fudugazi	14 Dec 2004
Moongold wrote: I am tiring also of the dissension and am no longer sure whether it is healthy debate or not. I think it is possible to discuss the issue without making it personal or reducing it to a "it's the best, no it ain't" type of school yard stand-off. I, personally, am fascinated - by the fascination that the Tarot of Marseille has on some people and not on others. That's what I have been trying to look at the past couple of days in my posts about iconography and what the eye and the heart are used to, or can be instantly drawn to. I've also, that way been able to explore my own attraction, and try and place it in context. Forgive me if I've done it in a long-winded way! It's only unhealthy if we make it so. But it is, in and of itself, an interesting debate on what kind of imagery touches us in the early 21st century, and why. Since I find many of the tarot decks I see kitsch, cartoonish or sentimental, and yet they please many people, I have also been asking myself where that imagery comes from and what it means to people; and how come differences in style of representation will literally divide people who have the same surface interest (the tarot). Imagery is, as Silvia put it, deeply linked to our emotions. At the very least, even an unhealthy debate will show that - and indicate that we have someting to learn about ourselves in our emotional (as well as intellectual) response to small images on a pack of card.

Fudugazi	14 Dec 2004
noby wrote: Yeah, exactly. I think I would be more inspired to look into the TdM if the way people talked about it was, "Oh, this deck is so beautiful. I love its many qualities, which are A, B, and C," instead of "The TdM is tarot, and you need to study it to understand tarot." I see where you are getting at Noby - and you are probably less imbued with French culture than me - and at the same time much kinder to the French (the wages of being a Swiss-French!) . I think, probably, one does have to study Tarot de Marseille in order to understand tarot - if one is serious about tarot, but there is no obligation to like it or to stay with it. Just as it's probably a good idea to study Mozart if one is serious about classical music, when one might, ultimately prefer Berg and Schoenberg (the mind boggles at anyone not liking Mozart, but I'll pass). But then again, there's no obligation, unless you're going to teach the subject, or write about it, to study tarot seriously. I've been reading for 7 years and only just got into the Marseille. I don't feel in any way left out of diminished by that! But I am enjoying learning it, very much.

Diana	14 Dec 2004
Paul wrote: I would find it very ironic to see fundamentalism on a Tarot website. To be honest, I personally have yet to see fundamentalism here , but if I did, what an oxymoron that would be? Paul: the word "Fundamendalist" has its origins in the word "Fundamental". Today, it has a very negative connotation due to its being attached to certain forms of terrorism - like Arabic-Islamic Fundamentalism, or American-Born-Again Christian Fundamentalism - but actually, when one looks at the words "Fundamental".... there are quite a number of people who use the Tarot of Marseilles in order precisely to get back to the Fundamentals of Tarot. To remove themselves from the hocus-pocus of the Golden Dawn secret society/sect; to get away from very Personal decks (by Personal, I mean one person's view of the world they live in.) So many people are aware that we have lost much Wisdom since the Inquisition and the heavy, cruel hand of the Roman Catholic Church (working hand-in-hand with royalty and other forms of absolute power), who were the terrorists of those times. Where can we find this wisdom? Is it lost forever? Can we find it in the Tarot of Marseilles? There is little doubt to many of those who study it, that the Tarot of Marseilles shows not only the doors to where this Lost Wisdom is to be found, but also gives us clues as to where the Keys are hidden. It only give us clues though. It is for us to hunt, search, seek high and low, to go our our own Quest for the Holy Grail. The Tarot of Marseilles will not give us answers. But it will teach us which questions to ask in order to find the answers. (We must not forget that the word "question" and "quest" have the same origin.) And it also provides a reassurance that we will find the answers. For why else would the Tarot Arcana end with The World XIX, Judgement XX... and Le Mat (un-numbered). (And this is one of the numerous reasons that I think that other tarot decks pale in comparison. When one looks up into the sky.... what beautiful stars we see. They twinkle and wink at us. But one Star shines brighter than all the others. No... I'm not talking about the Evening Star. I'm talking about the Sun (son?).)

firemaiden	14 Dec 2004
noby wrote: Whoa there, pardner! I don't get how anyone could get out of what I posted that I was suggesting people should not be allowed to use the Marseilles and think and say anything about it they want.. I didn't get anything of the sort out of your post. I did however, object to your use, and other's use, of the word "elitist" - and I explained why I feel sad when people use the word elitist. I think it is very in fashion these days to say this or that (usually high culture thing) is "elitist". - as if there were something wrong with being intellectual or cultured. Well, I'm somewhat of a contrarian myself, and I tell you, you do not want to be putting down things of an elite nature. On the contrary, the "elite" is usually a minority, and is usually working for the good of all. Again, I say, if someone feels "excluded" by the champions of the Marseille- I submit that they need to look at why they feel so inferior.

Fulgour	14 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: And speaking again only for myself, people can pile all the labels they want to on my head, it will not change my beliefs and will not prevent me from continuing to proclaim what I believe. Even for most English majors, Shakespeare is like poison... Great for a quote or going to the movies, but term papers? I can't blame anyone for gagging on "Elizabethan" theatre. Imagine my surprise when I began to hear his voice clearly! No teachers or essays by teachers or books by teachers can open a closed mind to the joys of the world's greatest author. If his name had been "Phlegmwarte" we'd never even have to hear it being rolled out like the grandest of pronouncements. Edmund Spencer or Sir Philip Sidney would be all you'd get. Thus sadly it seems it shall ever be with Le Tarot de Marseille. But just like with Shakespeare, an open mind works wonders. Be it "for the ages, or an afternoon" it is a Tarot with a heart.

Fudugazi	14 Dec 2004
I'm sad and - because the weather is bad and cold - slightly irritated that this thread has become a discussion about why we are discussing that some people like the Tarot of Marseille and some don't, peppered with an argument about words like elistist or fundamentalist (and btw, firemaiden, I agree that there is a debasement of culture by a rejection of all things fine but not immediately accessible to our fast-food culture, and labelled as"elitist", which has replaced the "bourgeois" insult of our parents' day). Can we get back to the topic please? There are some very interesting things to explore there - artistically, psychologically, spiritually or culturally - since in dealing with the Marseille Tarot we are dealing with the complete world-view of a culture. Fulgour - apt comment about Shakespeare (and you know, I hate to say this, but I hated Miles Davis first time I heard those driving notes. Now he's on my Desert Island Discs list...)

Diana	14 Dec 2004
Helvetica: Don't be sad. :( (You have the same weather as I do... they said on the radio that at 800 metres the sun is shining!!! It's not far away. :) ). Some roads go straight. Some have curves. This thread has curves and straights and curves with a couple of bumps and pot-holes. A real road. I personally find the curves and the straights very interesting. It's all part and parcel of "Why do people use the Tarot of Marseille" - and this thread is very much an Aeclectic thread - in the true spirit of Aeclectic, with all our different personalities peeping out as well. I have enjoyed travelling through this thread - and the bumps have been quite fun - I used to love going over bumps in the car when I was a little kid - my sister and I would shout "wheeee!!!!!!!!" and giggle.

Fudugazi	14 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: I have enjoyed travelling through this thread - and the bumps have been quite fun - I used to love going over bumps in the car when I was a little kid - my sister and I would shout "wheeee!!!!!!!!" and giggle. Right then, Diana, bump along! I like puddles myself. I've bumped along bad tracks too much these last few years, my back has become fragile. Now I would like to ask you something. Can you give one or several instances of why YOU love the Tarot of Marseille: no general Ur-Tarot, lost wisdom talk here - let's say you pick one Major, one pip and one court, and give us the low-down on what makes them so rich. Refer to anything you like (personal, cultural, spiritual, psychological, iconographic, whatever) - but keep it specific. You'll pick up the gauntlet?

Diana	14 Dec 2004
Helvetica wrote: Right then, Diana, bump along! I like puddles myself. I've bumped along bad tracks too much these last few years, my back has become fragile. Now I would like to ask you something. Can you give one or several instances of why YOU love the Tarot of Marseille: no general Ur-Tarot, lost wisdom talk here - let's say you pick one Major, one pip and one court, and give us the low-down on what makes them so rich. Refer to anything you like (personal, cultural, spiritual, psychological, iconographic, whatever) - but keep it specific. You'll pick up the gauntlet? Dear Helvetica: I like puddles too. Sometimes one can see the sun shining in puddles!!! Even muddy puddles!!!! :) 1) I cannot separate the Tarot of Marseilles from the Ur-Tarot. 2) I am not too keen on personal challenges - I am rather averse to tests which mark and grade people. 3) In the Historical section, I participated frequently in the past (especially when the Historical forum was young) in the threads on the different Majors. I think maybe you will find your answers to your challenge there. 1) And I am not a teacher. People sometimes try and persuade me to be one. I am just me. Take me or leave me.

Fudugazi	14 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: 1) I cannot separate the Tarot of Marseilles from the Ur-Tarot. 2) I am not too keen on personal challenges - I am rather averse to tests which mark and grade people. 3) In the Historical section, I participated frequently in the past (especially when the Historical forum was young) in the threads on the different Majors. I think maybe you will find your answers to your challenge there. 4) And I am not a teacher. People sometimes try and persuade me to be one. no, you misunderstand me, I wish neither to take or leave you ;) I have come with a coupe - not an epée. It was not a suggestion to teach, nor a test of your knowledge and goodwill, but an invitation to share (that's what one does on fora, no?). Nor am I denying your right to call the Tarot de Marseille the Ur-Tarot. I just want to see what it is that you love about it, what gives rise to your declarative sentences - for instance as illustrated by individual cards. If you prefer, you could illustrate it otherwise. This is what the thread is about, after all - WHY some people love it. Surely you don't just love it because it is the Ur-tarot? (or maybe you do?) I have looked in the historical section - trawled through it, and very interesting it is too. What I am interested in is something more personal, but specific. But of course, you have no obligation! It's just that you are so passionate about declaring that the Tarot of Marseille shines for you (and for humanity), I wondered if you would share specfic instances of how it shines - again, within the limits of the question asked in this thread. We all have limited time in our life, however, so feel free to give me the brush-off if it would take too much of yours.

Diana	14 Dec 2004
Helvetica wrote: no, you misunderstand me, I wish neither to take or leave you ;) (..............) I wondered if you would share specfic instances of how it shines - again, within the limits of the question asked in this thread. We all have limited time in our life, however, so feel free to give me the brush-off if it would take too much of yours. I usually understand you, Helvetica. :) I know you do not speak to me with an Epée... well, not a double-edged one anyway. Perhaps only the kind that tries to pierce what needs piercing. :) You are a most pleasant mixture of all the four Elements and your rather sudden appearance on Aeclectic has caused an evident shift in the energy of these forums themselves. (Every new member causes a shift, but some people create bigger shifts than others.) I will give some thought to your challenge and see if I can find a way to respond without betraying who I am (or at least my present understanding of who I may be... perhaps).

Fudugazi	14 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: You are a most pleasant mixture of all the four Elements ...I will give some thought to your challenge and see if I can find a way to respond without betraying who I am (or at least my present understanding of who I may be... perhaps). Merci du compliment! Last night, I received for myself as an "advice card" the Reine des Bâtons. I looked at her, and suddenly Teddy Roosevelt's words "tread gently, but carry a big stick" popped into my mind. As the queen sits there, looking deceptively mild, but holding her huge stick (it looks more like a club), with her vital hair streaming about her shoulders, I thought she had drawn to her some of the qualities of the other suits, and borrowed them to express her own special qualities of creativity and sexuality. Here's a lady who treads gently (because she is self-assured) but who carries a big stick ;) Thanks, that would be lovely - and why speak of "betraying who you are" ?(it's hardly a betrayal to share the things you love - to say "see this coin, here, this flower there?" ).

Anna	14 Dec 2004
Lee wrote: I haven't posted in the Let's Marseille reading forum (the idea of someone telling me I don't read in the right way is so ridiculous and outrageously offensive that I refuse to set foot in it). But I'd be curious to know, does anyone in that forum regard 5's as indicating some type of difficulty or disruptive change in their readings? If so, then you're right back in Golden Dawn Land, because that numerological meaning for 5's derives from Western Qabalah via the Golden Dawn. Pre-GD numerological meanings are often quite different. The 5's, for example, were often seen as a positive, lucky number. My point is that it's human nature to want everything to be black and white, but there are lovely shades of gray out there, just waiting to be unearthed... -- Lee Lee, if I have ever given this impression, of telling people that they are reading in the wrong way, then I do appologise. I shuddered to read your post because my intentions in setting up that circle could not be further away from that. It was always about freedom, mutual teaching, learning from each other and discovering for ourselves what the meanings might be. About your question: my own style of reading the minor cards involves bearing in mind the meaning of the Major Arcane of the same number, the suit or element of the card, and also the patterns and flowers on the cards themselves. So, I'd read 5's as being connected to Le Pape, as a number reflecting the challenges of freedom and knowledge. I also feel it to be a number of blessings. My system for reading the minors is a work in progress, it will change and grow through the studying I do. But it will be a personal system, and its likely that it will be unique to me. Other people will have come to other conclusions about what the cards may mean. Cool! I'll learn from them too. But this is one of the reasons why I enjoy reading with the Tarot of Marseilles. Its wonderful to be able to explore all the possibilities of reading the minor cards in their un-peopled form. Very liberating!

Moongold	14 Dec 2004
musclegirl wrote: Hi guys, I was looking at the Tarot of Marseilles deck at the store. It was published by Grimaud. All of the numbered minor arcana cards of a suit look pretty much the same as the other ones of the same suit. I am wondering why people use this deck for readings. It doesn't look that interesting to read, compared to some of the picture book tarot decks like the Rider Waite. Am I missing something? Dear musclegirl ~ I was thinking about you tonight and wondering whether you knew this thread was still going almost a year later. Did you ever get a Marseilles yourself? When I contributed to your thread early on I wrote that I had a Conver Marseilles and wasn't really connecting with it. In the process of the thread I learned about the Fournier and got a copy which I now love. Not RWS at all but the colours completely change this deck for me. So, in a way you have been pretty instrumental in my return to the Marseilles. Thank you. I love the basic humanity of the Marseilles. That is what attracted me in the first place. But it's like anyone's house, when you walk and look around you find there is much more than you ever would have imagined. So I am just touching base with you now. See you were here a few days ago and wonder whether you have read all of this and what you think. Did you ever buy that Grimaud by the way? Or if not, have we convinced you that purchasing a Marseilles would be worthwhile? Blessings

Lee	14 Dec 2004
CharmingPixie wrote: Lee, if I have ever given this impression, of telling people that they are reading in the wrong way, then I do appologise. I shuddered to read your post because my intentions in setting up that circle could not be further away from that. I should explain further that it is my belief that all systems of assigning meaning to tarot cards (and I mean all) are equally arbitrary, and therefore it is entirely up to personal preference as to how we choose to do it. As far as I'm concerned, for the pips, one could write down 40 meanings, each on a separate piece of paper, throw them all up in the air, and assign them to the 40 pip cards in the order in which one picks them up (i.e., at random), and still end up with a perfectly satisfactory method for reading with them. I understand and sympathize with the desire of the posters in that forum to avoid the RWS pictures and the GD, but, as with my 5's example, it may be harder to avoid it than some people realize (the system I'm studying now avoids the GD altogether). But, more importantly, although I sympathize, I don't ultimately agree with trying to remove the RWS or GD from that forum (even though I don't use RWS/GD myself). There are many, many people who read Marseilles and other non-scenic-pip decks by using meanings and/or images derived from RWS and/or the GD, and I don't see why those people need to feel like they're unwelcome (I'm not accusing any particular member of making people unwelcome, mostly because I don't remember from my one foray into the forum which members were giving me that impression.) By the way, to answer the question, "Why use the Tarot of Marseilles?", my answer is, I like the idea of reading with decks which were not designed to be used for divinatory purposes. The Marseilles and other antique decks were, I believe, created for gaming purposes, using evocative and culturally significant imagery in the same way that games nowadays do, to add interest and piquancy to the game. Thus, I like using them in the same way that people use other man-made objects like playing cards or dominoes for divinatory purposes, or non-man-made objects like clouds or tea leaves. It gives me pleasure to use such an elegantly-created and evocative series of objects for this purpose. -- Lee

noby	14 Dec 2004
Helvetica wrote: I think, probably, one does have to study Tarot de Marseille in order to understand tarot - if one is serious about tarot, but there is no obligation to like it or to stay with it. Just as it's probably a good idea to study Mozart if one is serious about classical music, when one might, ultimately prefer Berg and Schoenberg (the mind boggles at anyone not liking Mozart, but I'll pass). But then again, there's no obligation, unless you're going to teach the subject, or write about it, to study tarot seriously. I think this depends. It is important to study the TdM if one is "serious" about brushing up on tarot history. But I don't see it as at all being necessary if one is only "serious" about the art of divination itself, or the use of archetypal symbolism. The TdM may be of interest to those working with such aspects of tarot, but I do not see why it is necessary for those who are drawn more to the symbolism and art of different decks. And similarly with classical music, one would need to study Mozart if one were "serious" about the history of classical music, but not if one were simply "serious" about discovering and listening to music that has a certain effect on them. I personally love classical music more than any other type of music, and find theory and other more intellectual aspects of it to be interesting, but ultimately of little consequence for me, because what matters to me is the emotional and imaginative impact of the music itself. It seems to me this is the kind of thing you're getting at too, but I think it's important to make clear distinctions as to what exactly it means to be "serious" about something. I think you're right that those who mean to become serious about the history and origins of tarot are well served to study TdM, but I don't see that one who is simply serious about reading has to know anything about the TdM.

spoonbender	14 Dec 2004
Hi Noby! I still don't understand why it bothers you so much when people say that they think the Tarot de Marseille captures the Essence of Tarot. Isn't it just another expression of creative individuality? In fact, it was because of that very passion and love with which people here spoke/speak about the Tarot de Marseille, that I decided to get one myself :). I am very very grateful for that. Know that no one is saying that all other decks should be banned or burned (heaven forbid!). No one is even saying that everyone should go out and buy a Marseille! Spoon

Fudugazi	14 Dec 2004
noby wrote: It seems to me this is the kind of thing you're getting at too, but I think it's important to make clear distinctions as to what exactly it means to be "serious" about something. I think you're right that those who mean to become serious about the history and origins of tarot are well served to study TdM, but I don't see that one who is simply serious about reading has to know anything about the TdM. Yes it is and you said it very well. If one wants to write a book purporting to be about tarot - not one particular aspect of it, but "Tarot" - then TdM would be a prerequisite (alongside Thoth, Golden Dawn, and the Tarot of the Little Jumping Imps). If one wanted to say something about iconography and the develoment of the archetypes and the suits, then ditto. But of course, tarot is more than that - you said it - it calls my emotions and intuition. And if my heart and spirit is well served by the Tarot of the Little Jumping Imps, then I'll not need more. Of course, I might become curious about other forms of tarot- intellectually and emotionally curious. I have read your other post to firemaiden, too. I couldn't agree with you more about the proles and the elite oppressing them (even though the language to describe all that has changed, the fact has not). I spend my working life with this stuff. But I'm one of those people who says that I - a person who did go to university and learnt about Titian and Mozart - am not the owner of such treasures. They belong to all humanity - not to be forced down the throat, but to be opened up, to be discussed, to be spread about like manna. Why shouldn't so-called proles be interested in Cosi Fan Tutte and the curving swords of Marseille? Are they incompatible with 2pac and the Tarot of the Little Jumping Imps? Personally, I like the idea of having Mozart and 2pac side-by-side, two genius tearaway brats that they were. And I like the idea of Tarot de Marseille jostling about in my handbag alongside those imps. It seems to me that what you don't like is what separates people, what keeps some in and some out, like a gentleman's club. But a Titian's Danaë or the exquisitely beautiful Marseille pips are not elitist. Only people can be. And only when they choose deliberately to exclude. You can't stop people discussing what they love (although it's rude to do so in the presence of people who haven't a clue what they are talking about. Many a time I've thought that when male friends discuss the footie in my presence), even if it is the curvature of a leaf around a coin.

Darla	14 Dec 2004
Diana wrote: Because some things are understood with the HEART, and with the SOUL, and not with words. Yes, I understand that. If you really want to connect with a deck, something inside you has to recognise the symbolism. The pictures on the cards have to resonate with you. And this definitely seems to be the case with you and the Marseilles. I was regarding it from a historical point of view. Someone in this thread (I'm not sure if it was you) mentioned that they treasured the Marseilles so much because it's the UR- Tarot. Since the Visconti is the oldest known deck I was just curious, why the Marseilles and not the oldest.

zorya	14 Dec 2004
I have temporarily closed this thread, until the tarot decks forum moderators are online. bright blessings, zorya global moderator

MeeWah	14 Dec 2004
Thread re-opened after removal of posts not in keeping with its topic. A portion of removed posts now under the title "Tarot of Marseilles: the cultural & decorative features of its pips" in the Marseilles & Other Early Decks Forum. ~MeeWah & Sulis Moderators, Tarot Decks Edited to correct title--"Tarot of Marseilles: the cultural & decorative aspects of its pips"; & include link: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=34748

northsea	14 Dec 2004
I've always appreciated the TdM based on aesthetics; and I find the images of the Majors and Courts quite symbolic and readable. I like antique playing cards, too. But I haven't gotten my head around those pips, mainly because I haven't yet decided on a numerology system. Maybe I'm a Myers-Briggs Perceiver as I'm often quite undecided about which assignments to adhere to, and always sifting through the latest data. Meanwhile, I use Etteilla/Waite meanings for the minors for the pragmatic reason that they seem to express most of human activity with some degree of precision. For example, for shock/surprise, there's 2 of Wands reversed. Any activities that are omitted/missing can be attached to certain cards by the reader (before doing a reading to avoid bias). Anyhow, this works for me.

firemaiden	15 Dec 2004
Helvetica wrote: eh bien, you must be willing to eat lots of baguette and garlic, and bet on the tiercé in smelly cafés and play boules and you must LOVE Pastis (Marseille, ha!). Ma foi oui! and you must be willing to have bouillabaisse, while sitting on the vieux port, looking out to the Chateau d'If... stroll along the Canebière... admire Notre Dame de la Garde at night... oh my God what a beautiful city. I still remain intrigued by the idea that the Marseille Strength card might in fact be a symbol of the City of Marseille itself. Marseille is in the "Lion Gulf" - golfe du lion. (in the mouth of the lion, see? get it?) Ancient coins minted for Marseilles (Massalia) depict Artemis / Diana on one side, and a lion on the other, in basically the same image, with few variations from the 6th century BC through the 1st century BC. That's a lot of centuries for one image to serve as an emblem on a city's coinage!! (source: Ancient coinage of Massalia)

Fudugazi	15 Dec 2004
firemaiden wrote: Ma foi oui! and you must be willing to have bouillabaisse, while sitting on the vieux port, looking out to the Chateau d'If... stroll along the Canebière... I still remain intrigued by the idea that the Marseille Strength card might in fact be a symbol of the City of Marseille itself. Marseille is in the "Lion Gulf" - golfe du lion. (in the mouth of the lion, see? get it?) Ancient coins minted for Marseilles (Massalia) depict Artemis / Diana on one side, and a lion on the other [/url] , in basically the same image, with few variations from the 6th century BC through the 1st century BC. That's a lot of centuries for one image to serve as an emblem on a city's coinage! If all that's a prerequisite for reading Marseille cards, then I'm in. Part of my family come from there, and I love that big warm-hearted messy city. What a great link- Strength and Marseille via Diana/Artemis and a Lion. Of course only Diana/Artemis would have that kind of courage - to even attempt to tame a lion...thanks for the URL. I wonder what that means in terms of rapprochement between La Force and La Lune? Or is that stretching Marseille's Artemis link a tad too far?

Diana	15 Dec 2004
Darla wrote: Yes, I understand that. If you really want to connect with a deck, something inside you has to recognise the symbolism. The pictures on the cards have to resonate with you. And this definitely seems to be the case with you and the Marseilles. I was regarding it from a historical point of view. Someone in this thread (I'm not sure if it was you) mentioned that they treasured the Marseilles so much because it's the UR- Tarot. Since the Visconti is the oldest known deck I was just curious, why the Marseilles and not the oldest. Darla: I've opened a thread especially to address this question. It's in the Historical forum. The link is here: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=34729

The Why do people use the Tarot of Marseilles? thread was originally posted on 17 Jan 2004 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.