Egyptian and Native Amercian Indian deck opinions please

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 27 Feb 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Moonbow*	27 Feb 2004
Hi all I don't have either of this type of deck in my collection. (except Ancestral Path where they have a suit each). I have deliberately steered away from them, in fact, because it seems a whole new subject to learn as well as the cards. But now I'm ready, I would like one deck of each type, and I would welcome everyones ideas about them - pros and cons please. Lee I see you have just posted, I am very interested in your ideas if you have the time. Moonbow*

Lee	27 Feb 2004
Hi Moonbow*, these are just my personal preferences. I generally don't like Egyptian decks because I find the artwork to be rather stiff. Exceptions are the Lo Scarabeo Nefertari deck which is really beautiful and interesting, and the Ancient Egyptian by Clive Barrett, which is really, really nice, and done in the Golden Dawn tradition which makes it easy to read with, unlike the Nefertari. Native American decks, visually I like the Vision Quest, a really lovely deck. I liked the Native American Tarot, I found the art quirky and fun, and the deck is very carefully constructed (the book is a must-have if you want to get this deck). However, the NA Tarot has a rather severe Queen of Swords, showing a woman warrior holding an axe and a scalp which she has just scalped, this was a bit much for me. -- Lee

Astraea	27 Feb 2004
Hi, Moonbow. I agree with Lee about the Egyptian decks. If you like illustrated pips, Clive Barrett's Ancient Egyptian deck is wonderful -- beautiful and symbolically rich. Nefertari is lovely, too, with pips that are more suggestive than straightforward. I don't have any wholly Native American-themed decks, so can't comment on those decks.

mercenary30	27 Feb 2004
I have yet to find an American Indian deck that I like. I do have the Egyptian Tarots by Silvana Alasia. I like it very much, the symbology and hieroglyphics are quite accurate. I am still interested in the Nefertari deck, I just haven't decided to shell out the extra dollars. You are very correct in the additional studies part. I am on my fourth book on Egyptology, the current one is 600 pages. But I am learning sooooo much.......

Nitegoddess	27 Feb 2004
I too am in search of a good Native American deck, I have one deck now The Southwest Sacred Tribes by Violeta Monreal. I love the work put into it but I have yet to sit and actually read from them. I have found in my quest for anther deck .. It has to feel right to you.. it must move you inside, move for you to see the whole picture. Good Luck and let me know if you find a good Native American Deck, I love the Southwest. :D

Moonbow*	27 Feb 2004
Actually nitegoddess, I have just been looking at your deck and I really like it from the pics I've seen so thanks for the recommendation.

SongDeva	27 Feb 2004
Like Lee, I have and adore the VisionQuest....something about the deep blues and greens give the idea that these people (card people) exist in another realm somewhere. Also, I have and enjoy Clive Barrett's Ancient Egyptian. I have the Ancestral path too, and the Egyptian element there has an entirely different feel, so you won't be double-upping. You really feel like you are peering into another world with this deck as well. Same for the AP Native American suit/deck. The AP might have this feel as well, but you only get one suit per culture/legend to peruse. :)

Emily	27 Feb 2004
Hi MoonBow, I like The Ancient Egyptian tarot by Clive Barrett too, I'm not too keen on the packaging of the book and deck set with just an insert for the deck but they might have changed that now. The deck itself can mostly be read with Rider Waite symbolism but it is a little harder to read, especially with all the Egyptian references. It's really nicely drawn, good human figures and expressions. The companion book is good too. I've looked at the Lo Scarabeo egyptian decks but I don't think I would be able to read the minors but the decks are stunning. :)

lunalafey	27 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Lee I liked the Native American Tarot, I found the art quirky and fun, and the deck is very carefully constructed (the book is a must-have if you want to get this deck). However, the NA Tarot has a rather severe Queen of Swords, showing a woman warrior holding an axe and a scalp which she has just scalped, this was a bit much for me. In defence of the Queen, this was a woman who would go to war beside her partner, in defence of a tribes boundries, honor, what ever the situation. Women where known to be very brave and cunning warriors. So consider the aspect of passionate nature of the suit, how well would one fight, while fighting beside your loved one.

Lee	27 Feb 2004
Oh, I'm not criticizing the card, it's just a bit violent for me personally. -- Lee

punchinella	27 Feb 2004
--I don't 'do' Egyptian; therefore can't comment. Native American-wise, Vision Quest is an absolutely beautiful deck, with the most well-written & insightful LWB that I've ever encountered . . . it's better than most full-length books written to accompany decks . . . My only (& it's very minor) reservation about this deck is the way the faces on most of the court cards look like essentially the same person. I guess this is a matter of artistic style (many other decks are the same) but in the case of, for example, Father (King) & Mother (Queen) I wish that the faces looked a bit older/more mature . . . apart from this, I LOVE the deck. Actually, I find it a wonderful accompaniment deck to use in conjuction with Ancestral Path. --Whose sacred circles suit I also just LOVE . . . If you like AP, you'll probably like VQ too. Although the art is different, the colors are richer & the 'feel' more fluid. Since AP & VQ are the only NA decks I own, I can't comment on the rest. Except to say that AP & VQ are so good together that I feel no need whatsoever to break them up w/ a third party . . . :joke: P.

Moonbow*	27 Feb 2004
Keep it up everyone, I am about to buy two decks and it all depends on what my friends say. So far, I still can't decide so, I want more input and argument (friendly of course). Edited to say - Hi Punchinella, don't see you often, so its nice to hear from you

Cerulean	27 Feb 2004
If you haven't checked out the Ancestral Path, it might be worth it for the minors, which focus on 'combination ancestries' that include traditional and in-setting story/cultural meditative ideas...but I would recommend the deck and book set, it gives a warmer feel of cultural tidbits and a family orientation, as well. The Egyptian/African woman/man of one suit, Native American young man/grandmother of another, Japanese woman/young boy/Ainu story setting and then a combination of Arthurian/Celtic blends are an introductory idealism into concepts...at the moment, I'm thinking of repurchasing the set. (I gave it to the poetry teacher for either regiving to someone else or combined heritage overviews). It's going to be a while before Julia Cuccia Watts finishes her Maat Tarot---not Egyptian, really, more a darker style of vivid art. The majors are the friends of the artist/writer, kind of eclectic, the minors are truer to a feel of something that touches on older cultures and mixed settings in history...yet still has the feeling you are reading tales of different lands, if you like that idea. Mari H.

Moonbow*	27 Feb 2004
Mari, you are, as always very informative, but I already have the Ancestral Path and book. What I'm after now are two decks. One Egyptian and one Native American Indian. These are both subjects that I know nothing about and I have deliberately avoided for that reason. Having said that, I would like a deck that I can get my teeth into. So any suggestions would be very welcome.

lunalafey	27 Feb 2004
I don't know about the AP- but the NA gets into the traditions of the people, quite accurately. The deck was created by Native americans as well. lee- I know....

Lee	27 Feb 2004
Moonbow*, if you're looking for an Egyptian deck to read with, I don't think you could do better than the Ancient Egyptian (Barrett). The Lo Scarabeo decks are very nice to own and look at, but if you're used to Golden Dawn (i.e. RWS/Thoth) type meanings, you'll find the AE easier to deal with for reading purposes. -- Lee

CreativeFire	27 Feb 2004
Hi Moonbow* Do not have any Egyption decks so can't comment on that one. However do have the Native American Tarot by M & J Gonzalez (husband and wife team) - and agree with lunalefy, that is does indeed go into the culture of the native americans very well for a tarot deck. As tarot was not part of their cultural heritage or used for divination so they have done quite a good job integrating the tarot with the beliefs and imagery of Native Americans. Also the images are simply drawn but appealing (personal taste would come into it here). The cards themselves are a bit smaller than say your RWS or Universal Waite (slimmer and shorter) - which makes them an easy deck to shuffle. Also I like the design on the card backs. You definitely need the LWB or some understanding of Native American culture / beliefs as some of the cards do line up with RWS but others are totally different. Just my opinion, but have found that studying other decks from different cultural influences enhances my understanding or message of the cards in the more standard decks to a certain extent. :-) I attached a scan of the back and some of the cards to give you an idea of the look of the deck and how they would relate to RWS. Shields = Pentacles Vessels = Cups Blades = Swords Pipes = Wands I have also included the image that Lee mentioned - the Matriarch of Blades :-) This is actually one of my favourite cards in this deck - a very strong, individual looking woman - just goes to show you how everyone's tastes are different. Thanks moonbow* for bringing up this thread, as it has been some time since I have pulled out my Native American deck and going through the cards has made me think it would be interesting to incorporate some of these in the 78 week study. Hope you find the decks that are for you :-) Cheers CreativeFire

CreativeFire	27 Feb 2004
another one ..

Logiatrix	27 Feb 2004
Hi, Moonbow*.... I also recommend the Barrett deck. It basically the only Egyptian deck I have ever liked, and I was even able to read with it amazingly well. A Native American deck I like very much is "The Star That Never Walks Around," by Stella Bennett. While it is not an artistic style I am typically attracted to ("naive/primitive"), I find this deck to be gently appealing and readable for me. It is also a round deck, which perhaps provides an added incentive, at least from a collecting angle. I went through several NA decks to come to this one; the deciding factor being the very personal level from which Bennett comes from as a Native American and an experienced tarotist--a combination I found rare in my search for a NA deck I liked. :)

punchinella	27 Feb 2004
Mmmn, I don't know (sorry to poke my nose in here again where it really doesn't belong . . . ) I just don't find any of those scans very appealing. --Nothing like as lovely as the Vision Quest deck, from a to-look-at perspective, that is . . . maybe it's the southwestern-looking borders (??) that I just don't care for, I don't know . . . Has anybody here mentioned The Star That Never Walks Around? Although I don't own it, I am mysteriously attracted to it, as a deck of real (potential?) integrity . . . any comments on this??? Actually, I'd kind of like to know :) P. [edit: tauni we crossed posts, & you answered my question too--jinx :joke: ]

Mimers	27 Feb 2004
I was just reading this thread thinking, "I am surprised no one has mentioned Stella Bennett's deck, The Star That Never Walks Around" and then I got to Tauni's post. I like this deck a lot. As Tauni mentioned, it is not an artistic masterpiece by any means, but it is very meaningful and expressive in a simple way. The book that Ms Bennett wrote is also very good. Here is a link to her site where you can see all the cards: http://www.tarotstar.net/main.htm I also love the Vision Quest Tarot. I just got my first Egyptian deck Ramses Tarot of Eternity. I like it alot. Different from RWS, but readable. Mimi edited to add: If anyone has the Star That Never Walks Around Deck, and happened to get an extra Justice card, I have lost mine :( You might also be interested to know that I got an extra Empress and was missing the Judgement card when I bought this deck. I emailed Ms Bennett and she sent me a replacement right away. So I still have the extra Empress if anyone needs it. Mimi

Logiatrix	27 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by punchinella ...Has anybody here mentioned The Star That Never Walks Around? Although I don't own it, I am mysteriously attracted to it, as a deck of real (potential?) integrity . . . any comments on this??? Actually, I'd kind of like to know :) P. [edit: tauni we crossed posts, & you answered my question too--jinx :joke: ] LOL, punchinella... Great Minds Think Alike! :D

northsea	27 Feb 2004
For one of each, I'd choose the Vision Quest and the Ibis (based on an earlier Falconnier 'Egyptian' deck) ( or Tarot of the Sphinx if you want illustrated minors, a great deck).

Moonbow*	28 Feb 2004
OK so this is what we have: Southwest Sacred Tribes Vision Quest Native American Tarot The Star That Never Walks Around Nefertari Ancient Egyptian Egyptian Tarot - Silvana Alasia Ramses Tarot of Eternity Tarot of the Sphinx Ibis NAI - I like them all - this is going to be difficult to make a choice Egyptian - It seems Silvana Alasia has her finger in the pie in most of these decks (Nefertari, Egyptian Tarot, Tarot of the Shinx) and I can't decide on these either. The prettiest decks seem to be Ancient Egyptian and Ramses Tarot of Eternity, Ibis has lovely Majors but pip cards (this may be a good challenge for me). The other three are very similar (the Moon in Tarot of the Sphinx and Nefertari are identical). Hmmmmm Edited to add : I just found out that Nefertari and Tarot of Sphinx are identical but mirrored images No one has mentioned the Sante Fe, Rock Art or Medicine Woman yet - any thoughts on those? Moonbow*

lunalafey	28 Feb 2004
Quote: I just don't find any of those scans very appealing. --Nothing like as lovely as the Vision Quest deck, from a to-look-at perspective, that is . . . maybe it's the southwestern-looking borders (??) that I just don't care for, I don't know . . . Quote: Also the images are simply drawn but appealing (personal taste would come into it here). Quote: As tarot was not part of their cultural heritage or used for divination so they have done quite a good job integrating the tarot with the beliefs and imagery of Native Americans. I have said very much the samething someplace round AT about the NA. Most people do not like the NA because of the art, which is such a shame because if you are serious about tarot and serious about being familiar with the people and thier ways- this is a very wonderful deck, as said, the intergration was very well thought out. This was my first deck. I was already quite familiar with the NA traditions, but knew nothing about the stucture of tarot. I just knew what the card was about from the pictures. Once I did get another deck- even though it was quite different. Learning was easy because of the NA deck being so intune to the traditional dynamics of tarot. now I'm really curious how these other NA decks portray the fool & the world cards.....and all the rest inbetween

Moonbow*	28 Feb 2004
Merc30 - does your deck have pips for the minors? M*

Lee	28 Feb 2004
The Rock Art deck is not what I would call an NA deck. I actually think it has some interest on its own, but I don't think it's what you're looking for. It doesn't explore NA spirituality per se, but uses rock art from several different countries and eras. Medicine Woman is not really NA either, in my opinion. Instead, it uses a sort of NA-ish mileu to suggest a sort of idealized modern society. It's a feminist deck but done in a gentle way, with very pleasant art. Again, an interesting deck, but not an NA deck in the way that I think you're looking for. -- Lee

mercenary30	28 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Moonbow* Merc30 - does your deck have pips for the minors? M* Now I wish I would have saved the PM I sent you...... :) It does have illustrated pips, but not in the same way that RWS/Thoth decks do. Although they do depict the suits and their number, there is also Egyptian symbolism on there as well. They somewhat represent the meaning of the card, but you have to understand the Hieroglyphics used to do that. I have been studying a number of Hieroglyphics books as well as a lot of Egyptology books so that I can do a better job of it.

Moonbow*	28 Feb 2004
OK sorted, I've been spending........... :D I'm getting Vision Quest and Egyptian Tarots by Silvana Alasia. (for now)!!! Thanks Guys, in the end I had too many to choose from, I really liked the Native American Tarot, the Ancient Egyptian and Ibis too but they were just pipped. (but not forgotten)!! Moonbow*

CreativeFire	28 Feb 2004
Congratulations Moonbow* on your new decks! Enjoy getting to know them:-) Would be interested to hear what you think of the Vision Quest once you have had a chance to play with it. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Lunalafey* I have said very much the samething someplace round AT about the NA. Most people do not like the NA because of the art, which is such a shame because if you are serious about tarot and serious about being familiar with the people and thier ways- this is a very wonderful deck, as said, the intergration was very well thought out. This was my first deck. I was already quite familiar with the NA traditions, but knew nothing about the stucture of tarot. I just knew what the card was about from the pictures. Once I did get another deck- even though it was quite different. Learning was easy because of the NA deck being so intune to the traditional dynamics of tarot. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lunalafey, it was my first tarot deck as well, and was given to me because of my interest and studies into indigineous cultures (Native Amercian at the time) - and agree with you in regards to understanding what the cards depicted because of what I had learnt / read - and then found out more about tarot as I went on :-) CreativeFire

Logiatrix	28 Feb 2004
Moonbow*.... Congrats on your final decision! Still, if you ever see the Ancient Egyptian Tarot in the future, grab it up. It's a good one to have, even if it's just to add to your collection. Personally, I was suprised to find that it made a good general reading deck for me, even without my attraction or knowledge of things Egyptian. Looking forward to your new deck arrivals.... PEACE :)

Moonbow*	28 Feb 2004
My decisions were based on this: firstly, I have looooaaddds of decks if I want to read, so I wanted an Egyptian deck that looked 'Egyptian' and a Native American deck that looked 'native american'. But I am also interested in the symbology of the decks, and pips no longer frighten me (since using the marseilles). Having said that, I love the Ancient Egyptian (my second choice in Egyptian ones) and the Native American Tarot (my second choice in these). One day, I will probably get both. As for the Ibis, it has a hold over me. The Majors are beautiful and the minors are pips but in the end I thought - one deck at a time....see how I get on. This was a good exercise though, because I 'did' take notice of everything that you all said and I did 'alot' of scanning for decks on the net. Thanks again

Cerulean	28 Feb 2004
My ideas only, if you are interested in reading further... You may find the book from Lo Scarabeo rather good in explaining the 19th century romantic mythology surrounding their design of Egyptian revival decks. It's a romantic treat for me. and reads well, in English. The book is mostly about the romantic views and Paul Christian; but you find a few mentions of Count Caligstro in it that might also perk one's interest. Tarotwise, I find the Alasia deck easy to read and it works for me because I enjoy the older assignments of Justice as eight and Strength is eleven. I look it as a transitional design in tarot that does a lovely job of reflecting most of the decorative Egyptian canon. I say 'most' because some of the frontal views of subjects in this tarot isn't Egyptian at all, it's the romanticized 19th century tarot design of Egyptian figures. However I also have the other side of the Egyptian coin toss, the History of the Occult Tarot by Dummett and Decker and a good factual history of Balsamo, alias Caligstro: if you read the Lo Scarabeo book alone, you might come away with curiousity on the small mentions and idealization of the romantic Count Caligstro. It seems historically, more than one time period in Western Civilization has romanticized Egyptians and they have also romanticized the Native American as well... I think of this as I look at the lovely, European-designed Vision Quest. I am glad you made your choices, as they are beautiful designs. Mari H.

Mimers	28 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Mari_Hoshizaki My ideas only, if you are interested in reading further... You may find the book from Lo Scarabeo rather good in explaining the 19th century romantic mythology surrounding their design of Egyptian revival decks. It's a romantic treat for me. and reads well, in English. The book is mostly about the romantic views and Paul Christian; but you find a few mentions of Count Caligstro in it that might also perk one's interest. Mari what book is this? I did not know that LS had a book out to go with the Egyptian Tarot. Could you give me the title? I would like to try to get the book. Thanks! Mimi

Cerulean	28 Feb 2004
and ask if they could order the book for you separately. The set looks like this and I've seen it at Borders as well--but it is both the book and deck. http://www.sevenrays.com/catalog/describe.htm?item=0738704482 Here's the Llewellyn ad for the set: http://www.llewellyn.com/bookstore/book.php?pn=J448 My earlier thread showed the book and deck, but Amazon.com is being wierd and the set doesn't come up easily just by entering the ISBN or keywords. http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18899&highlight=alasia+book+and+deck Best wishes. Mari H.

Moonbow*	29 Feb 2004
Mari, thankyou, you are always providing good advise (and links) I am beginning to think I should have ordered the set now instead of just the deck. Mimers, let me know how you get on please? M*

Mimers	29 Feb 2004
Moonbow, I will let you know what I think if I purchase it. Thanks for the links Mari! I don't have this deck yet, but have been thinking about it. Did not know it had a book. Mimi

Mimers	29 Feb 2004
They have the book/deck set at Overstock for 22.99! http://www.overstock.com./cgi-bin/d2.cgi?page=search&SEC_IID=1217&KEYWORD=0738704482&x=29&y=10 I might just get this! Moonbow, I will let you know. Mimi

paradoxx	29 Feb 2004
While not tarot, there is an Animal Medicine Card deck available from St. Martins Press, it has some interesting additions to the traditional animals one would assoicate with a totem including the whale, dolphin, Ant, blue heron(this one really suprised me), armadillo, and wild boar. Each animal is associated with a poem that the book displays very well and a well thought out description of what that animal eans in your totem pole and how to use thenm appropriatly. This book has given me deep insight into the tarot decks that incorporate animals into the scenes. The authors are not native american but their research is well thought out and informative. And the illistration of the bear card looks like smokey the bear.

CreativeFire	29 Feb 2004
An excellent suggestion paradoxx. :) I used the book that accompanied this deck quite a bit when I was using my NA tarot deck - as it certainly did give further understanding and insight into the animals displayed. Generally the Native Americans are very shamanistic in their culture and knowledge of the animals is invaluable. CreativeFire

Cerulean	29 Feb 2004
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0738704482/ref=cm_rev_all_1/103-1644584-1327053?v=glance&s=books&vi=customer-reviews And I just thought of a good suggestion if you really wanted Egyptian information, but it's not a real tarot, although it does have a trump sequence and structure llisted in the book to assist such divination: Book of Doors at Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0892815124/103-1644584-1327053?v=glance Good review: http://www.spiritone.com/~filipas/Masquerade/Reviews/doors.html

The Egyptian and Native Amercian Indian deck opinions please thread was originally posted on 27 Feb 2004 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.