Lord of the Rings - good for serious student?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 15 Feb 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

contrascarpe	15 Feb 2004
First, let me apologize if this has been discussed. In my high school days (MANY years ago), I loved Tolkiens writings. I would not classify myself as your typical geek, but maybe an atypical geek. That being said, does anyone serious about Tarot and divination have anything good to say about the Lord of the Rings deck? I am considering myself as a serious student of the art and have only considered the deck as a novelty, and not so sure I want to spend the dollars on this deck when there are so many other quality decks on the market. In brief, does this deck have ANY redeeming qualities or is it just a novelty item? Dan

Centaur	15 Feb 2004
I am sure that it depends on what one finds to be appealing. Personally, I feel sick upon contemplation of this deck. LOL. I feel that it is a novelty-based deck, and I would not recommend it to anyone who wanted a decent deck. But then, recommendations are based on personal taste and experience. My taste may be very different from that of others. But from what I know of other's opinions, this deck does not rate very highly. I would recommend that someone start out with an RW-based deck. Perhaps the Hanson-Roberts deck? Although I know of people who have expressed revulsion at this deck also... it is one of my favourites ;) I am off to eat a hobbit for dinner now. C

contrascarpe	15 Feb 2004
Centaur - That is pretty much the reaction I thought I would get, hehe. I have over 20 decks in my collection and have fought this one for that very reason. Years and years ago, I owned a Hanson-Roberts but I suspect my ex-wife has since used it as fireplace kindle. There are decks in my collection that I read with and some that I study, and many on my wish-list. I do love the saga of this fantasy epic, but have not been able to pull myself to buy it as I consider myself a serious student. I guess I was hoping someone would say "this deck is deep!". A nice by-product of the recent movie trilogy is that maybe novices will discover the beauty of tarot. Thanks for you input. Dan

Centaur	15 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by contrascarpe96 Years and years ago, I owned a Hanson-Roberts but I suspect my ex-wife has since used it as fireplace kindle. HAHAHA. I am outraged! ;) On another note, you state that you have been fighting the impulse to buy the deck. Maybe it is calling out to you (hehe... kind of like the ring calling out to frodo... sorry!). I know that before I bought the Thoth, I struggled with the impulse to buy it. Finally, I gave in. I am thinking that maybe you should try and get a second-hand copy or something to quell that urge? Perhaps someone else will come along and post that it is great. C

contrascarpe	15 Feb 2004
Ah, the Thoth. I am trying to study it. However, I am in the habit of sleeping with a new deck under my pillow or under my bed before I will use it. The Thoth brought sooooo many nightmares that it scared the ....... crap .... out of me, hehe. But I have three books on the deck and I am determined to make peace with it. But as of now, I have not done a reading with it. Dan

Lee	15 Feb 2004
Be sure to read Aeclectic member Kiama's excellent review of this deck: http://www.tarotpassages.com/lotr-kh.htm After that review, I must say I did not feel compelled to go out and buy it! :D -- Lee

contrascarpe	15 Feb 2004
Lee - Thank you - this is what I expected. The only other deck I own that I treat as solely a study deck is the New Vision. Don't get me wrong, I love this deck, but I will never do a reading with it. I appreciate the feedback! Dan

Centaur	15 Feb 2004
Thank you for that Lee! HAHAHA. It has certainly confirmed my own feelings for that deck... there is just something awful about that brick-border at the left-hand side of each card. OK. I really do think that I am going to vomit now. Contrascarpe, I am sorry to hear that the Thoth is giving you nightmares. It has been giving me headaches of late. Hehe. I am reverting back to my Universal-Waite... the Hanson-Roberts is tucked away. C

ros	15 Feb 2004
I love the movies Lord of the Rings. I dislike the deck. I wish the deck was more mystical. So I pass, wishing the deck would have been like studying from a wizard!

Imagemaker	15 Feb 2004
I've read Lord of the Rings several times over a period of decades, enjoyed the movies, and was hoping this deck would be an interesting new angle to tarot. Aack! It's a horrible commercial disaster that has nothing to recommend it in any way! (IMHO) So sorry I wasted my money . . .

punchinella	16 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by contrascarpe96 Ah, the Thoth. I am trying to study it. However, I am in the habit of sleeping with a new deck under my pillow or under my bed before I will use it. The Thoth brought sooooo many nightmares that it scared the ....... crap .... out of me, hehe. --So THAT's what you were on about--I've been investigating Thoth books (Duquette, Arrien, etc.) in my own attempt to make peace w/ the deck (aaugh) & noticed you saying in one of those threads that at one point you gave the deck away to your brother in order to get it out of your house--???--I think that was you contrascarpe? Well I'm okay with keeping the deck in the house (I think--although I did smudge it very carefully when it first arrived!--) but not in the bedroom . . . & MOST DEFINITELY NOT IN THE BED!!! P.

lunakasha	16 Feb 2004
Hi Contrascarpe! Have you considered the Lord of the Rings Oracle instead? I recently bought this one in the Bargain section at Barnes & Noble. This too could be considered a "novelty" deck, but I think it would be easier to use since it is a non-tarot deck... This might satisfy your craving for a Tolkein deck without the frustration of trying to read with the LOTR tarot (which I have heard bears little or no resemblance to an actual tarot deck other than the number of cards used). Good luck with making your decision! :) Luna

contrascarpe	16 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by punchinella --So THAT's what you were on about--I've been investigating Thoth books (Duquette, Arrien, etc.) in my own attempt to make peace w/ the deck (aaugh) & noticed you saying in one of those threads that at one point you gave the deck away to your brother in order to get it out of your house--???--I think that was you contrascarpe? P. That wasn't me punchinella. I had read that post as well. No, my Thoth is still with me and in my little bag o' Tarot which I cart with me on my business trips. I have some Thoth books as well including the new Duquette. I am slowly studying it and will read with it someday, just not right now. I am still learning my style and am not advanced enough, nor comfortable enough with the Thoth, to progress there as of yet. Thanks to all who weighed in on the LOTR deck. Lunakasha, I haven't seen the LOTR oracle but have a feeling it may be more of the same. I am sure it is a popular deck now that the movies have been so successful and it may have brought more students of the tarot into the mix that normally wouldn't have come. I am going to avoid this deck - there are so many out there (and some already in my collection) that deserve my attention.

punchinella	16 Feb 2004
Oops sorry I was just so sure it was you :|

baba-prague	16 Feb 2004
The tragedy is that we can all imagine how wonderful a LoTR deck COULD be. One day it'll happen, but I suppose not for a long time, now that this one is out no-one else will get permissions for years. Sigh.

Kiama	17 Feb 2004
baba-prague, you've hit the hobbit on the head there! That is exactly my reaction to this deck: it could have been so much better, and indeed with the fantastic stories of LOTR, there was potential there... But sadly this LOTR deck just doesn't manage it. :( Is it possible to create a different LOTR deck, or have the 'rights' been sold to that one? Kiama *desperate for a better LOTR deck*

Lee	17 Feb 2004
In my opinion the ultimate blame for this deck fiasco lies squarely on the shoulders of U.S. Games and Stuart Kaplan. Apparently, neither Kaplan nor the U.S. Games editors who worked with the authors on the deck had any knowledge of LOTR or bothered to acquire such knowledge. I think we can also blame Christopher Tolkien, since, I assume, he has control over the marketing rights for his father's works and presumably agreed to sell the rights to produce a tarot deck to U.S. Games, without bothering to maintain any kind of editorial control. Of course I'm only speculating, but my guess is that Christopher Tolkien didn't take tarot seriously enough to care about how the project would turn out, although presumably he cared enough to cash the check from U.S. Games. And Stuart Kaplan apparently didn't care enough about the books to take some personal interest in the project and make sure that it would be true to a work of literature beloved by millions. What a waste. -- Lee

Theia	20 Feb 2004
You know I thought about buying a deck for like a minuet but at $30.00 was not compelled. It felt too hokey, like a joke deck.

dolphinprincess	20 Feb 2004
I ADORE the Lord of the Rings... and someday, if a deck is created to do this story justice.. I will treasure it! Sadly, this one isn't it!

Indigo Rose	20 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by contrascarpe96 The Thoth brought sooooo many nightmares that it scared the ....... crap .... out of me, hehe. Dan I won't even buy the Thoth deck because the images are so dark to me. I have a book that features each card. I can see why this deck brings you nightmares. I will stick with my Rider decks and it's clones.

Shade	21 Feb 2004
Any deck in which hobbits wear shoes cannot be taken seriously. But to add to Lee's comment I don't think Christopher Tolkien had any say on the deck as hisfatehr sold the rights to the Lord of the Rings. Christopher Tolkien is a HUGE opponent of his father's books being made into anything, especially the recent movie trilogy. He still has the rights to the Hobbit and for that reason a Hobbit film cannot be made at this time.

Lee	21 Feb 2004
Oops, I wasn't aware of that, thanks, Shade. Tolkien Sr. must have sold the rights to the LOTR novels before he knew they would become a worldwide phenomenon. -- Lee

Shade	21 Feb 2004
I wish he didn't have the rights as I'd love too see Peter Jackson do a Hobbit film.

contrascarpe	21 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Shade Any deck in which hobbits wear shoes cannot be taken seriously. But to add to Lee's comment I don't think Christopher Tolkien had any say on the deck as hisfatehr sold the rights to the Lord of the Rings. Christopher Tolkien is a HUGE opponent of his father's books being made into anything, especially the recent movie trilogy. He still has the rights to the Hobbit and for that reason a Hobbit film cannot be made at this time. Well after seeing all three films, young Mr. Tolkien is being short-sighted. The movie trilogy was magnificent and the Hobbit now needs to be done. After several disappoints (ahem, Mr. Ralph Bakshi), the LOTR movies are the standard. Do the Hobbit while people out there have Smeagol fresh in their minds. Oh, and do a decent deck - oh the possibilities.

DollieAnna	22 Feb 2004
You know, I have the deck, and I don't quite mind it. I don't read with it often, however the readings I have done have been accurate. I haven't seen the movie, I have read the book(s). I think the deck is ok! I guess I am in the minority.

astril	28 Mar 2004
at the risk of being totally looked down upon for mho, I have to say my peace about the lotr deck. I love it. I get the most clear consistant readings from it. The funny thing is I used the deck before I saw the movies or read the book, and it just got better after the book and movies were absorbed. I have been reading tarot for twenty years off and on. I have used numerous decks and have had great success with only a few. One was the Rohrig and this one. I have such a hard time with other people saying that a certain deck is good or bad, because only the person who does the reading can tell if a deck is good or bad FOR THEM! they are the only judge as to what works in thier subconscience mind. What will unlock the key so they can read the cards. One person will find this deck brilliant, another will find it boarish, but it is up to you to decide if it works for you or not. So I think that reviews are a waste of time, unless they physically describe a deck. To say whether they will work in readings for someone else is virtually impossible, IMHO. With that said, I say if a deck calls to you it does so for a reason, and if by chance no one else likes the deck, so be it, it will be your signature deck and will be a personal statement that you have made for yourself. thank you for listening! astril

punchinella	28 Mar 2004
Astril, you made some very good points--thanks for putting criticism in perspective! I doubt very much whether anyone here will 'look down on you' for an honest opinion, btw . . . I for one love the LS Tarot of Durer, & nobody else seems to notice/like it . . . I think a lot of people harbour such 'secret loves'! Maybe it's time more of us came out of the closet . . . Punchinella

contrascarpe	28 Mar 2004
I agree with Punchinella, Astril. Nobody will down on you and if they do, that's their problem. I was the one who started this thread because I have loved Tolkien for many, many years. I finally decided against this deck myself because I was able to see all the cards laid out in a Barnes & Noble store and I felt it didn't do the books justice, nor did I think it would appeal to me for more than just a novelty deck. But there are some decks in my collection that others would (and have) give negative reviews to. It is nice to see somebody does read with this deck. Who knows, it may end up in my collection someday anyway, lol. By the way, Punchinella - I bought the Durer not too long ago and I love it. I haven't spent much time with it I must admit (schedule issues and just too darn many new decks) nor have I done a reading yet, but alot of the cards are just beautiful. I'm not sure which of my decks can be classified as a "guilty pleasure" yet (maybe the Bruegel). Dan

astril	28 Mar 2004
Thank you punchinella and contrascarpe96, for what it's worth, I feel much better now! astril

Pagan X	29 Mar 2004
I have read all the Tolkein books, seen the movies, and I have the deck. I don't agree with some of the cards, such as the High Priestess. It is a bit sad that the artist had never read Tolkein. The writer, on the other hand, had; I found the companion book to be fascinating as a very subversive blend of Tolkein, standard Rider/Waite/Smith interpretations, and modern Neo-Pagan ethics. I thought it could make a terribly sneaky deck to give to somebody young--say 13--to start them questioning The Establishment. The dark nature of the deck would intrigue them with proper spookiness. There is an anti-technology emphasis that I think Tolkein would have approved.

Khatruman	29 Mar 2004
I am also one who felt disappointed in this deck, knowing how much of the potential is there. If there are any who really do want the LOTR tarot deck, I am selling it in the Tarot Trading section. I have only used it once or twice, and it is in like new condition. PS. I also have the LOTR Oracle, and am seriously considering selling that also. There is such a richness in Tolkien's writing, how come these decks just don't take advantage of it?

Alissa	29 Mar 2004
I think one of the essential problems when converting these works into a deck is the lack of feminine characters to utilize. The thread LOTR in the Mayor Arcana tackled the subject of LOTR and deck images, and the conflict was noticed back then. There are more female characters in your standard deck than there are female characters and plots to draw from in Tolkien's work. Still, I like my LOTR deck. Sure the artwork is crude. The game, if you've ever played it (and I have) is pretty goofy. But some of the cards are inspired. I am particularly fond of the 10 of wands as Sam bearing Frodo on his back up Mount Doom.

Khatruman	29 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Alissa I think one of the essential problems when converting these works into a deck is the lack of feminine characters to utilize. How true!! I have never noticed that. Tolkien wasn't overly concerned about fleshing out female characters. The two exceptions really are Galadriel and Eowyn. Even Arwen's character had to be more fully created in the movies than she was in the books. Most of that material Jackson garnered from the appendices and his own reworking of her more into the story. And it seems that tarot does rely on the feminine qualities quite a bit.

Alissa	29 Mar 2004
The LOTR deck uses Goldberry (Tom Bombadil's enchanted squeeze) and other even more obscure females such as Rosie (Sam's wife to be), Theodwyn, sister of Theoden, and even Belladonna Took in order to have at least a few more women characters to chose from. They were skimming the bottom of the bucket, without resorting to material outside the trilogy itself.

Dragons_Wing	29 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by contrascarpe96 Centaur - That is pretty much the reaction I thought I would get, hehe. I have over 20 decks in my collection and have fought this one for that very reason. Dan "As I grow older and hopefully wiser, I find that not as much bothers me as it used to. I generally freely admit when I like something even though (and probably despite) the concensus thinks differently. That being said, I cannot think of one deck in my collection embarrasses me. There are a couple of decks I own that I DON'T like that embarrass me, but that's not the same thing, lol. Dan" i happen to read these two posts back to back :)

Pagan X	29 Mar 2004
As is explained in the companion book to the LOTR deck, Tolkein didn't have much contact with women in his life at important developmental phases. His mother died when he was young. His brother and he were raised in a foster home by a Catholic priest. He fell in love with another ward of the home and waited several years to court and marry her. They remained married for life. His profession of history professor gave him mostly male colleagues; his friends in the Inklings were I think all men. Female characters in his works are either large than-life goddesses, or "main squeezes" and mommies. This "Goddess/charwoman" syndrome can be seen in the work of many male writers. I read Lord of the Rings as a teenager, already getting tired of the then all-male genre of science fiction. It did impact my enjoyment of it. As a Black friend of mine remarked once, "What it is is that we aren't even *missed*, as well as being invisible. that's what hurts."

MuffinTops	29 Mar 2004
Personally, I find this deck very concise. It gets straight to the heart of the matter with no "beating around the bush" or extra gobbledy goop.

punchinella	29 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Pagan X His profession of history professor gave him mostly male colleagues; his friends in the Inklings were I think all men. Well, Dorothy L. Sayers was an 'honorary' inkling, but she never achieved full status because as a woman she wasn't allowed in the pub (was it a pub? --at any rate, the establishment) where they regularly met. Punch

contrascarpe	29 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Dragons_Wing I happen to read these two posts back to back :) Hmm, not sure of the point here. My original question in the thread was whether or not the deck is good for a serious student of the tarot, not whether I should avoid purchasing it out of embarrassment. I just didn't want to waste my money on an inferior deck, which the concensus seems to believe it is. I also said somewhere that this deck will probably one day find itself in my collection. It usually takes alot to embarrass me and when something does embarrass me, it usually has something to with either my pants falling down or my body making an unfortunate sound. I'm pretty sure I didn't contradict myself but if I did, I apologize.

punchinella	29 Mar 2004
Huh now, wait a second . . . just why would you apologize??? --Oh, nevermind.

northsea	29 Mar 2004
The Ace of Coins (Celeborn seated on a throne) and King of Coins (Treebeard) should be switched since Treebeard is much more elemental. Likewise, the Four of Coins (White Tree) and Ten of Coins (Smaug guarding his treasure) should be switched. The White Tree is more symbolic of foundations, legacies, and family trees. :-) There's several other cards in need of a switch-a-roo. The Emperor, supposedly the half-elvin Elrond, doesn't even look vaguely elvin. And a Page riding horseback, and Knights on foot? To be fair, there are some nice cards like the 10 of Wands.

The Lord of the Rings - good for serious student? thread was originally posted on 15 Feb 2004 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.