My new deck - Fournier

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 06 Mar 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Jewel-ry	06 Mar 2004
Just want to say that my Fournier TdM has arrived. Its beautiful! The colouring excites me and the size of the cards is just perfect for my hands. It feels silky and I love the backs too! I'm off to 'play' now but I would love to hear opinions from anyone else with this deck. J :)

Le_Corsair	06 Mar 2004
The Fournier is a good deck. I like that each suit is color-coded, no other TdM that I know of does that. The artwork is good, and as you noted, the backs are handsome, and the cards themselves easy to handle because of their slightly smaller size. It's a very underrated deck, IMO. Bob :THERM

Imagemaker	06 Mar 2004
I'm waiting for mine to arrive--picking a Marseille rather at random just to understand what people are talking about here. Your description sounds wonderful!

Jewel-ry	08 Mar 2004
I have a question for all the Marseille boffs. Is this deck (Fournier) a true Marseille? If not why not? J :)

Lee	08 Mar 2004
I say a resounding Yes! It is a Marseille deck. The only thing that distinguishes it is the way it has been colored. Since every single edition of the Marseille, antique and modern, has variations in color, I don't see why this would disqualify it from Marseille-dom. -- Lee

Aure	08 Mar 2004
I'm considering the Fournier but can't find it anywhere... What's the ISBN and other details for it?

Le_Corsair	08 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Aure I'm considering the Fournier but can't find it anywhere... What's the ISBN and other details for it? I found it on the homepage at Alida, the seller in San Marino. Scroll down a little bit and you'll see it, it is in the blue box. It appears to be on sale! Bob :THERM

Jewel-ry	08 Mar 2004
Yes I got mine from Alida, it only took 4-5 days to arrive here and only cost me about £11 including the postage. Excellent service. I was really pleased because I was bidding for one on e-bay and thought I had it at £1, then someone came in and it went up to £8.50 (I had put top price of £8). When I looked on Alida it was actually cheaper to buy it brand new. You have to be so careful on e-bay. Always check the price elsewhere first. J :)

Chronata	08 Mar 2004
I love my Fournier. I have had other Marseilles decks in the past that I have given or traded away. The colors are rich, and the art is splended. It is actually one of my favorite reading decks for clients as well! (and apparently reasonably priced too!)

punchinella	08 Mar 2004
Yes, I'm waiting for one from Alida & very excited about it (thought it might have been in the mailbox today--boohoo :( ) Aure, when I first went looking for the deck I couldn't find it anywhere either because I was typing "Marseilles" rather than "Marseille" into the various search engines--just thought I'd contribute that :| Punch

punchinella	12 Mar 2004
Hey guys--my Fournier arrived today ( :D ) & it is lovely, but my magician in particular seems a bit blurry . . . the brown outline is much heavier than it is on other cards, & sort of wobbly, & his upper lip is so dark it looks a bit like a moustache (although I don't think it's meant to be). The Empress & Emperor are a bit affected too, though not quite as bad. But this could be normal . . . I don't know. Does the magician card in your decks look different too, or is this just a printing flaw??? Thanks for advising me-- Punch

Rusty Neon	12 Mar 2004
Hi Punchinella ... You beat me to it. I was going to post about the mustachioed Fournier Magician as well! In general, subject to the mustache anomoly, the Fournier closely follows the imagery of the Grimaud Tarot de Marseille. However, in the Grimaud deck (and in the 1760 Conver) the Magician is definitely without a mustache.

Diana	12 Mar 2004
Could it not be a false moustache? After all, this guy has a lot of tricks under his sleeves and probably has all sorts of disguises. Perhaps his other disguises are the next 21 cards.....

Jewel-ry	12 Mar 2004
Hi Punchinella, In my deck, the brown outline on the Magician is thicker and more wobbly, and he does appear to have a moustache. There is a shadow on that side of his face as well, which I think is made from his hat and I am wondering if in fact it's this shadow which gives an illusion of a moustache. I think the thick top brown line is his mouth. J :)

lark	12 Mar 2004
My card is very clear not blurry. I think he had a glass of chocolate milk for breakfast. See his empty red cup is still on the table.

lunakasha	12 Mar 2004
I have been tempted by the Fournier....and I have NEVER owned or read with a Marseilles deck! I love the coloring of the Fournier compared with some of the other Marseilles. So here is the big question: How difficult is it, honestly, to read with the Marseilles, when one is used to reading with RW-style decks??? Are there books anyone could recommend for a newbie like me? Thanks for your help....I really want to learn more about this mysterious tarot! :D :) Luna

Lee	12 Mar 2004
The way I've decided to do it is to simply use RWS meanings, i.e. bring to mind the RWS pictures, or else memorize some keywords for the RWS pictures and use those for the Marseille cards. This is the easiest way because you don't have to learn any new systems or meanings. As I've said in previous threads in different forums, I feel that this method is no more or less valid than any other. However, there are some people who feel that this approach would be wrong. You might want to check out some of the threads in Using Tarot and the History and Iconography forum, and then make up your own mind. -- Lee

Moongold	12 Mar 2004
I have had my Fournier for a few weeks now - Got at Trigoni in Italy, The service was fantastic. I have the Conver, simply purchased in Borders one night without much prior knowledge but I felt a little empty with it initially. During another discussion here a fe weeks ago I decided to get the Fournier and don't regret it. The colours are beautiful. Diana has a thread somewhere else here about the Reyne de Deniers and I took her out last night to look at her. Then I decided to take out all the other Queens and the whole scene came to life! They actually speak to each other and I have been searching all morning for something on the Queens. I think the Reyne de Deniers has a touch of Moorish or Latin blood. There is something different about her facial shape and colour. It may be the crown, sitting on a veil which obscures her hair. All the other Queens are blonde. And then I brought out the Kings. They are all blonde and they all have these odd hats, a bit like the hat on le Bateleur which is an infinity sign, and I started wondering about that. The Kings also have a slightly worn look about them as well, kind of care worn. And, why stop there? I brought out the Cavaliers and the Valets and then you have whole courts of chattering figures and Marseilles changes absolutely. I reached for my Conver but there was simply not enough room on the table. For a delightful moment I was transported in time to another space, partly between childhood memories and the present reality of my kitchen table; and faces from not-quite-history, in costumes bursting with colour and vitality, looking up at me. Another image that comes to mind is of a family photo album, but these characters, sitting on my kitchen table, have a little more life than the family album. What happened to our Marseilles study group? These Queens are demanding a voice now :) I came back to do a search for some material on the Queens when I saw this thread and stopped by. Can we do something concrete again soon? Moongold

lunakasha	12 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Lee The way I've decided to do it is to simply use RWS meanings, i.e. bring to mind the RWS pictures, or else memorize some keywords for the RWS pictures and use those for the Marseille cards. This is the easiest way because you don't have to learn any new systems or meanings. As I've said in previous threads in different forums, I feel that this method is no more or less valid than any other. However, there are some people who feel that this approach would be wrong. You might want to check out some of the threads in Using Tarot and the History and Iconography forum, and then make up your own mind. -- Lee Thanks Lee...I am open to any and all suggestions! I have already started looking in the Using Tarot and History forums...good information, but a lot to weed through if you don't really know *exactly* what you're looking for :eek: I like the idea of resuming a study group, Moongold...count me in! :D :) Luna

punchinella	13 Mar 2004
Yeah, I'm feeling very much 'sucked-in' by Marseilles this past week & could use some help . . . I do so want to read with my beautiful Fournier & Spanish decks (Fournier Spanish--my 'old' Marseilles with the spanish titles--is even more beautiful than this 'new' Fournier Marseilles, IMO) . . . For example, I drew both 6 & 3 of swords last week in response to important questions, & did for the most part wind up falling back on RWS meanings. But I think there must be a bit more to the deck. The 'feeling' I get from it as a whole is a feeling of great authority. I think, perhaps, in larger spreads involving multiple cards, that numerological etc. correspondences might become more apparent. After unwrapping the Fournier yesterday, I asked the deck about itself & drew King of Wands. Then I asked about myself & drew (after shuffling really, really well) Queen of Wands. --I think the deck likes me! Moongold, I haven't studied the other court cards yet, but my impression of K/Q Wands was of a very young wispish-looking man & a much older woman (does her hair look grey to anybody else--lovely . . . but decidedly grey???) I thought this was a bit odd, considering the youthful aspect of her husband. I'm glad to hear that everyone's magician looks equally strange. This eases my mind considerably, thank you! Punch

Moongold	13 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by punchinella Moongold, I haven't studied the other court cards yet, but my impression of K/Q Wands was of a very young wispish-looking man & a much older woman (does her hair look grey to anybody else--lovely . . . but decidedly grey???) I thought this was a bit odd, considering the youthful aspect of her husband. Hi Punch ~ I am looking at them both now I would definitely say she is an ash-blonde. I don't think she looks older - just immensely powerful. Notice how they both have different batons? Le Roy's looks more like regal scepter perhaps and La Reyne's looks more like a club :D. He does look a bit of a dandy, doesn't he but maybe that is how men of his stature looked in those days. The other thought I just had was that the artist may not have been that good at drawing women. Moongold

punchinella	13 Mar 2004
Yes, I did notice the sceptre difference, particularly after I pulled my Spanish deck out too (*runs to get decks & double-check* --Uh-oh, everything else seems to be coming along as well, OH NO I too now have all my court cards spread across the table & I'm supposed to be in bed already . . . ) Anyway, yes, I did notice the sceptre difference because in my other Marseilles deck (Spanish) their sceptres look exactly the same (except of course that they're held in opposite directions . . . hmmmn, wonder what this might signify . . . ) The way the king holds his sceptre reminds me of a 'cello-player, except that he's using the wrong hand. You're right about the Queen's face looking very youthful, but her hair to me still looks distinctly grey. The effect is rather goddess-like (ethereal--the way the hair flows reminds me of the Primavera). In regards to the Queen of Deniers, yes I see what you mean. Her (one) eye is so large & beautiful isn't it. & her face is so expressive. Well--everyone's face is expressive in this deck! & all of the eyes are beautiful. I'm appreciating it more & more. It's earthy & warm, like a terra cotta pot or good cup of coffee.

Jewel-ry	13 Mar 2004
There is some interesting stuff to be found in the H & I forum. I found this the other night http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22562 read Kris Hadars reply to the question about the crown (its in one of Diana's post because she translated for him). I actually sat there with all my Kings around me (both Hadar and Fournier) and learnt so much from comparing the crowns and Kings in the light of their elements. I think that much of this type of info applies to all decks. Also in the study group there Rusty Neon posted a thread requesting someone to ask a question that we could all work on but no-one has replied yet. I do hope the study group doesn't fizzle out, I was enjoying it so much. J :)

Jewel-ry	13 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by punchinella Anyway, yes, I did notice the sceptre difference because in my other Marseilles deck (Spanish) their sceptres look exactly the same (except of course that they're held in opposite directions . . . hmmmn, wonder what this might signify . . . ) The way the king holds his sceptre reminds me of a 'cello-player, except that he's using the wrong hand. Oooh thats quite funny because I think the Queen of Batons looks like she is holding a violin!! Quote: I'm appreciating it more & more. It's earthy & warm, like a terra cotta pot or good cup of coffee. Great description! I think of Spain and terracotta too, I even bought a terracotta coloured tarot bag! J :)

punchinella	14 Mar 2004
Today my Fournier deck told me that it wanted some clothes. So we strolled over to the adjoining room (the room with all the fabric in it) to 'browse' . . . before I knew what was happening the deck had demanded--positively DEMANDED--to wear turquoise velour. Of the most hideous & disturbing variety . . . along the lines of sophisticated exercize clothing from the 1970s . . . 'Turquoise velour,' I said to the deck, 'is out of the question. You're a Marseilles after all; don't forget your dignity!' But the deck was not to be gainsaid. 'Turquoise velour or nothing at all' it told me, flatly. So I made the bag, & when I was finished asked the deck how it liked its strange new clothes. I drew Strength. 'Okay,' I thought to myself, 'I get it now. A trip to the gym is exactly what you had in mind all along' (joke . . . funny . . . ) P.

Moongold	14 Mar 2004
Well, turquoise velour is probably warm in your winter, although we would call it a colour here :D

Jewel-ry	14 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by punchinella deck had demanded--positively DEMANDED--to wear turquoise velour. Of the most hideous & disturbing variety . . . along the lines of sophisticated exercize clothing from the 1970s . . . 'Turquoise velour,' I said to the deck, 'is out of the question. You're a Marseilles after all; don't forget your dignity!' But the deck was not to be gainsaid. 'Turquoise velour or nothing at all' it told me, flatly. So I made the bag, & when I was finished asked the deck how it liked its strange new clothes. I drew Strength. 'Okay,' I thought to myself, 'I get it now. A trip to the gym is exactly what you had in mind all along' (joke . . . funny . . . ) P. Hi punchinella, Very funny! :D I can see that turquoise can be quite becoming to this deck! I havn't got it with me at the moment but one of the queens wears a turquoise dress, I think its the Queen of Pentacles. J :)

punchinella	14 Mar 2004
Actually, her hair is turquoise too come to think of it :D

Centaur	06 Apr 2004
Just wanted to add that I finally got my Fournier, and that I am pretty impressed by it. Now, if you had asked me a year ago if I would have ever considered purchasing a Marseille deck, then I would have laughed in your face. But I really like this version. It is:- Colourful Vibrant Tasty! I could eat it. Hehehe.

Dark Inquisitor	06 Apr 2004
Congratulations Centaur ! It seems the world has gone Fournier mad. Here is a link to a reasonably priced seller in the US- http://www.areyougame.com/interact/item.asp?q=tarot&qmethod=0&itemno=UC172&sa=0 But- it says it's out of stock at the moment. I guess Fournier madness is more widespread than I thought.

lunakasha	06 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Tarotphelia Congratulations Centaur ! It seems the world has gone Fournier mad. Here is a link to a reasonably priced seller in the US- http://www.areyougame.com/interact/item.asp?q=tarot&qmethod=0&itemno=UC172&sa=0 But- it says it's out of stock at the moment. I guess Fournier madness is more widespread than I thought. Yes, Tarotphelia...I just got mine from them....maybe I even grabbed the last one!!! :P Sorry! Congratulations Centaur....your patience has FINALLY been rewarded!!! :D :) Luna

Diana	06 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Centaur [b] Now, if you had asked me a year ago if I would have ever considered purchasing a Marseille deck, then I would have laughed in your face. [b] Some people, when they grow older, become wiser. (Although it's not always the case.) How about next year you buy a Conver, or a Kris Hadar deck? The Fournier is probably tasty (I wouldn't know how much because I don't own one and probably never will), but tastes change also in time..... I must say that I am really happy to see so many people appreciating the Tarot of Marseille. There have been times in the past when things got pretty lonely. :) And then... along came Jewel-ry and Moonbow*..... and suddenly things shifted. Most exciting. :)

Summerdream	06 Apr 2004
I am anxiously awaiting my Fournier. It got sent in the mail yesterday. I got it from Ebay with a buy it now price of $9.95. It is being sent media mail, so the seller told me to expect 10 days from time of shipping. Momof3girls:)

Centaur	06 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana How about next year you buy a Conver, or a Kris Hadar deck? I'm not so sure about those. I tend towards vibrant, colourful decks. However, I might change my mind! For the moment, I am enjoying myself with the Fournier. I think I am going to have fun integrating my intuitive feelings re. the images, with my already existing knowledge of the Thoth and the Rider-Waite.

Jewel-ry	06 Apr 2004
I can vouch for the Hadar too!!! :D :D :D J :) P.S. I think I should be on commission!

Centaur	06 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Jewel-ry I think I should be on commission! You are a tarot-peddler. ;)

lunakasha	06 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Centaur For the moment, I am enjoying myself with the Fournier. I think I am going to have fun integrating my intuitive feelings re. the images, with my already existing knowledge of the Thoth and the Rider-Waite. I am doing the same right now, Centaur....trying to get a feel for the imagery on the cards...but I do find myself reverting back to the familiar RW meanings...how can you not??? :eek: Hopefully I will get away from doing that as I learn more about the Marseille and reading the pips! I must admit that I am enjoying these cards very much, and the challenge of learning something *completely different* is very exciting! :P :D Luna

Moongold	06 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Some people, when they grow older, become wiser. (Although it's not always the case.) How about next year you buy a Conver, or a Kris Hadar deck? The Fournier is probably tasty (I wouldn't know how much because I don't own one and probably never will), but tastes change also in time..... I must say that I am really happy to see so many people appreciating the Tarot of Marseille. There have been times in the past when things got pretty lonely. :) And then... along came Jewel-ry and Moonbow*..... and suddenly things shifted. Most exciting. :) Well, there were a few others interested quite some time before this. :) The Fournier is a vibrant, warm and robust deck, particularly the Majors. The different colours distinguish it from the other Marseilles and make the transfer from other types of tarot a little easier. That has been the case for me anyway. The Conver was actually the first Marseilles I purchased and it is a little difficult to respond to the sparseness of it initially, though historically I acknowledge it is of great interest. Last week I succumbed and ordered a Camoin and a Visconti and they are also very delicate and beautiful decks. I know the Visconti is not a Marseilles. However, the Fournier is like a close friend now. I keep it in my my handbag. Despite the vibrancy of the colours there is also delicacy about this deck. The cards are small and light and much more manageable for small hands. They are easy to shuffle and the back is also quite attractive. It looks like a kind of web design, a delicate pavement, and one turns over the cards to be delighted with strong, lovely colours. It is the kind of Tarot deck that you could take out and use on the tram without getting strange looks, I think. Despite its comparative newness to me, it still has echoes of ancient familarity. As Moonbow* said in a PM, I hope we can develop some sort of camaraderie in this new exploration.

Diana	06 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold Well, there were a few others interested quite some time before this. :) Moongold: Most definitely! :) That's how the Historical Forum grew so much. But it was when Jewel-ry and Moonbow* joined that something happened. It was as if we went from first to second gear.

Moongold	06 Apr 2004
Yes, it is nice to learn in such lovely company, and I hope we develop in both numbers and enjoyment of the learning. :)

Moongold	06 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by lunakasha I am doing the same right now, Centaur....trying to get a feel for the imagery on the cards...but I do find myself reverting back to the familiar RW meanings...how can you not??? :eek: Hopefully I will get away from doing that as I learn more about the Marseille and reading the pips! I must admit that I am enjoying these cards very much, and the challenge of learning something *completely different* is very exciting! :P :D Luna You have raised a really good point. I interpreted the Le Mat as about to walk off a cliff the other day, a very clear RWS association. It didn’t really matter that much in the context of the card interpretation which was about faith, grace and similar things. All I know in Tarot was learned from the RWS and it is almost subconscious now. I am doing quite a lot of reading about Marseilles symbolism and have decided to make a personal study of each Marseilles major to get a new sense of the cards for myself. Archetypes are universal though, and there must be some mutual associations in both types of tarot. I want to have some fun too, lunakasha, so I decided last night not to give myself a hard time about this. I have made some quite funny major bloopers already and I am sure there will be more. Last night I was thinking about reading intuitively from the Marseilles. Intuition is immediate insight and some of this has to come from prior learning, which, in turn, comes from a whole lot of sources including our prior knowledge of Tarot and other symbolism. In a personal and unique way this can only add to freshness in the reading. So I think at present. :)

lunakasha	06 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold I want to have some fun too, lunakasha, so I decided last night not to give myself a hard time about this. I have made some quite funny major bloopers already and I am sure there will be more. Last night I was thinking about reading intuitively from the Marseilles. Intuition is immediate insight and some of this has to come from prior learning, which, in turn, comes from a whole lot of sources including our prior knowledge of Tarot and other symbolism. In a personal and unique way this can only add to freshness in the reading. So I think at present. :) Thank you (((Moongold))) for your words of encouragement, and for reminding me to trust myself a little bit more and not worry about making mistakes....this is how we learn most of the time!!! I am REALLY enjoying this deck, even more than I ever thought possible. I think it is BECAUSE of the fact that I need to work a little harder with them...that makes me appreciate them that much more....if that makes sense??? :eek: Thanks again....glad to be in your company as I continue on my journey with the lovely Fournier Marseille.... :D Luna

Aure	06 Apr 2004
I can't read this thread because I get so jealous of you.... :( I would SOOOOO much love to get my hands on a Fournier deck!!! Especially the miniature kind I saw on one site. Too bad for me, it seems to be sold out in all the bigger stores and the only store I could get it from here claims it is sold out...

Aure	06 Apr 2004
Look at this: http://www.playingcardsales.co.uk/cards/moreimages/12542_8_mini_marseille.jpg AAAWWWW!!!!!!!!!! And I can't order it... It's a long story! Has to do with me not having a credit card yet and payment methods being way too complicated and stuff. If I could only get this deck, I'd be happy forever... I know, I know, you've heard it before, but...

Moongold	06 Apr 2004
Aure ~ My sympathies. I succumbed and got a credit card in the end. Can you not get a local supplier to order it for you? Or perhaps write direct to this company and ask if you could pay via bank cheque or something. Ah....but you've probably considered all these things :) Now, if you really want the deck, you'll find a way :) Many blessings - Moongold

lark	06 Apr 2004
Aure~ Jewelry has one up for trade in the trading forum.

punchinella	07 Apr 2004
Aure, join the no-credit-card-deck-buying-hell club . . . you're in good company (& we do support each other . . . ) I just went through this with the Kris Hadar deck (eventually WolfyJames bought it for me :) *aaaah*) I started a thread called "buying tarots without a credit card" in the chat section of the forum . . . a lot of people gave me wonderful advice on how to go about doing it, if you have access to those pages & would like to read their ideas :) My sympathies are with you-- Punch

Aure	07 Apr 2004
You are all so kind!! :) :) I have pm'd Jewelry. :) Not having a credit card really sucks!! I'm actually considering of getting one. The only problem is that my bank is now letting us buy online but the store has to use either Mastercard Secure Code or Verified by Visa standard for it to be secure enought for them. For some strange reason Amazon didn't want to give VbV a try even though they offered it to them for free!! I hope these two systems become more popular in the future, so far several banks all over the world have agreed to be part of it. Now the shops please....

Diana	07 Apr 2004
I went to the local bookshop to buy a Fournier to see what all you guys are raving about. My son was with me. (He knows all about Marseille decks, as you can imagine! :D ) We were allowed to look at the cards before buying them. We both gasped, looked at each other in amazement and walked out again. We will use the money instead to go to the cinema. Anyone for a Kris Hadar deck? Or a plain simple easy to read Grimaud? If you have any problems getting hold of one, please PM me and I will help you. (But if you are happy with your Fournier, then I am happy for you. :) ).

Le_Corsair	07 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana I went to the local bookshop to buy a Fournier to see what all you guys are raving about. My son was with me. (He knows all about Marseille decks, as you can imagine! :D ) We were allowed to look at the cards before buying them. We both gasped, looked at each other in amazement and walked out again. We will use the money instead to go to the cinema. (But if you are happy with your Fournier, then I am happy for you. :) ). Diana, what exactly do you and your son object to in the Fournier? Did you get to look at an opened deck, or just the box? Is this a visceral thing, or a genuine artistic dislike for the deck? I'm curious. Bob :THERM

crystal cove	07 Apr 2004
I like the colors in the Fournier, but for some reason, I just never use it. Just like my Camoin. It's my Hadar that I almost exclusively reach for these days. I'm awaiting a Heron anyday now. Should be interesting.

Lee	07 Apr 2004
I can understand someone having difficulties with the colors of a Marseille deck if one subscribes to a specific color theory, which would thus require specific colors. I can also understand it if one prefers a deck to look like it would have when such decks were originally created, in which case one would probably be better off with an historical reproduction deck rather than a modern one. But if these factors aren't an issue, then, for goodness sake, what is the problem with people preferring one set of colors over another? What's the big deal? -- Lee

Diana	07 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Lee But if these factors aren't an issue, then, for goodness sake, what is the problem with people preferring one set of colors over another? What's the big deal? Exactly! That is why I personally am happy for those who have fallen head over heels with their Fournier. :) Bob: I will reply to your question probably by PM. I have received information that some people are getting upset by my expressing my opinion on this deck. I think that for the moment, a little bit of auto-censorship will be in order. At least until such time that the more sensitive souls have got used to my ideas. Or choose to ignore them. :)

Dark Inquisitor	07 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana I have received information that some people are getting upset by my expressing my opinion on this deck. I think that for the moment, a little bit of auto-censorship will be in order. At least until such time that the more sensitive souls have got used to my ideas. Or choose to ignore them. :) I think you should express whatever opinions you have, but also that that others should be able to respond honestly to them. It's only a deck of cards , after all. If you are going to express your opinions, others should not simply have to get used to them and ignore them.

Diana	07 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Tarotphelia I think you should express whatever opinions you have, but also that that other should be able to respond honestly to them. It's only a deck of cards , after all. Tarotphelia: It's nice to see you around again... with a new avatar as well. To discuss Tarot honestly and with the courage of one's convictions is one of the reasons I joined Aeclectic. Even if it means ruffling feathers and having my own feathers ruffled. This is not a knitting forum (although I suspect that even knitters argue about the best way to make a sweater.) I am honestly glad that people are buying the Fournier - because I have been fighting for the Marseille for nearly two years now on these boards, and it is good to see that there is an interest. However.....

Centaur	07 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana To discuss Tarot honestly and with the courage of one's convictions is one of the reasons I joined Aeclectic. Even if it means ruffling feathers and having my own feathers ruffled. Quote: Originally posted by Diana I have received information that some people are getting upset by my expressing my opinion on this deck. I think that for the moment, a little bit of auto-censorship will be in order. I think that these two statements contradict each other. On the one hand you state that one should discuss tarot honestly and with zest, even if it means 'ruffling feathers', but on the other hand, the latter comment implies that when one starts 'ruffling feathers', then one should censor oneself. With regards to the Fournier, I feel that it is a most attractive rendition of the Marseilles. For me, it has brought alive images which I have previously found to be dry, and lifeless. I for one would be very interested in hearing why you have such distaste for it.

Diana	07 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Centaur I think that these two statements contradict each other. On the one hand you state that one should discuss tarot honestly and with zest, even if it means 'ruffling feathers', but on the other hand, the latter comment implies that when one starts 'ruffling feathers', then one should censor oneself. Yes, you're right. I posted too quickly. I was just pissed off at the fact that someone had actually PMd me to tell me to shut up. (They said it in more polite manner though, but the message was the same). But if I had waited a day before posting, I wouldn't have been pissed off anymore. I just reacted too quickly. I've got over my little tantrum now. :) I can definitely see the attraction in the Fournier, and I understand why people like it. Don't get me wrong. I can also see the attraction in the following text, but I don't see what it adds to the original text, and in fact, the changes to me take away its natural and original beauty: JULIET: Hey Romeo, Romeo! Why are you Romeo? Just deny your father and refuse your name But if you don’t feel like doing that, just promise that you love me And I’ll give up being a Capulet. ROMEO: Should I go away, or should I speak up? JULIET: You know, it’s only your name that I don’t like. You are you, not really a Montague. What’s a Montague anyway? It’s not a hand, or a foot, Or an arm, or a face, or any other part of a human body. Just call yourself something else! What’s a name anyway? If we called a rose something else, it would still smell the same. So Romeo, even if he wasn’t called Romeo, Would keep that delightful perfection that belongs to him even if he had another name. Romeo, get rid of your name and take me in the place of that name which doesn’t really belong to you.

lunakasha	07 Apr 2004
Thanks for the clarification, Diana..... However, in reading your "alternative" version of Romeo and Juliet, I cannot help wondering if you are somehow implying that the Fournier deck is like an inferior, "dumbed-down" version of the other Marseille decks....which I am sure many people would disagree with. I think that we should all just agree to disagree on this point....knowing that we all have different tastes in the various styles/versions of the Marseille, yet share a common interest in the Marseille itself--its history, structure and beauty. :) Luna

Lee	07 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana I was just pissed off at the fact that someone had actually PMd me to tell me to shut up. It wasn't me, by the way. :) Actually, I think Diana's position is a perfectly reasonable one to have (although it's not my position). However, the Grimaud and Hadar decks are modern versions which could be seen as capriciously modifying or altering (to varying degrees) the first Marseille decks. In this respect, I don't see much of a difference between the Grimaud, Hadar, Camoin, and Fournier decks. They're all modern versions. I would think someone who held these views would be happier with an historical reproduction deck. -- Lee

Le_Corsair	07 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Yes, you're right. I posted too quickly. I was just pissed off at the fact that someone had actually PMd me to tell me to shut up. (They said it in more polite manner though, but the message was the same). 'Twasn't me, either. I'm sorry that it happened to you. Diana, I've read both your postings and your PM, and I have to wonder: if the master cardmakers of the period in which the Marseilles was first printed were to be given the option of using modern printing and art techniques, do you really think that they would be content to stick with their woodcuts and stencils? Give them more credit than that. I think that they might nitpick the Fournier, but then again, they might just find it quite charming. I'm fairly certain there'd be a certain snobbery about the deck being produced in Spain, however. :D All my love, Bob :THERM

Lee	07 Apr 2004
To clarify my earlier post, I think Diana's personal opinions about the Fournier are reasonable, but not her suggestions that a deck that is not right for her shouldn't be right for anyone else either. -- Lee

Centaur	07 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Le_Corsair Diana, I've read both your postings and your PM, and I have to wonder: if the master cardmakers of the period in which the Marseilles was first printed were to be given the option of using modern printing and art techniques, do you really think that they would be content to stick with their woodcuts and stencils? If they had access to a PC and Photoshop, who knows what they might have come up with. ;)

punchinella	07 Apr 2004
I for one found the Shakespeare rewrite both eloquent & funny. In spite of the fact that I continue to love my Fournier :|

Diana	08 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by lunakasha However, in reading your "alternative" version of Romeo and Juliet, I cannot help wondering if you are somehow implying that the Fournier deck is like an inferior, "dumbed-down" version of the other Marseille decks....which I am sure many people would disagree with. lunakasha: When I rewrote the Romeo and Juliet version, I was not trying to dumb it down! In fact, I am quite proud of my version. I am sure a lot of people would prefer to read Shakespeare in modern tongue. My version is not vulgar, nor crude. It's the way people talk these days. It is inferior only because I wrote it in about three minutes, and if I had taken twenty or more minutes, I probably could have done a finer job... Other people: How many times must I repeat that I am happy that people are at last recognising the Tarot of Marseilles on Aeclectic!!! Happy? No. That is a dumbed-down version of what I want to say. I am overjoyed!!! And if it is the Fournier that brings you to realise that this tradition of the Tarot of Marseille is not outdated and just to be consigned to History, oh my god, I am the first to rejoice. There is nothing more actual than the Tarot of Marseille. The strange COLOURINGS on the Fournier deck bother me a lot. And most definitely NOT because of artistic purposes. I have always been the first one to proclaim loudly (too loudly in some people's views) that Tarot is NOT JUST PRETTY PICTURES!!!! All the oohing and aahing everytime a new Tarot deck comes out with pretty pictures on it drives me round the bend. Major Tom's Tarot of Marseille... I find most interesting indeed, and take an active part in helping him design it, so it's not the woodcuts or whether one uses photoshop or whatever to design it. I don't care about the method used. One thing that I ask from a Tarot of Marseille is that it doesn't ADD unnecessary details like that stupid egg that Camoin and Jodorowsky put in their deck. (And of course, that it doesn't remove important details either.) However, in any Tarot of Marseille there are always cards that I find should have this tiny detail or that tiny detail changed.... a perfect Tarot of Marseille one would probably only find if one could do a regression of a few days into the 12th or 13th Century and actually go and live with the guys who designed the whole thing. (Yes, I did say 12th or 13th Century :eek: ) But the colours are what seem to attract most of you to the Fournier. From what I saw from some of the cards.... they not only remove much simplicity, but detract greatly from the message that the Tarot of Marseille tries to convey. (The Etoile card that I saw yesterday comes to mind. Is it night? Twilight? Dawn? No, the Etoile in the Marseille shines in the daytime. If one starts changing details like that, then one may as well make a new Tarot deck BASED on the Marseille, like so many people have done with the Rider-Waite deck. But people must realise that they are using a deck BASED on the Marseille. As long as you realise what you're using, that's OKAY. But it would be a pity to let oneself be duped.) Now, you do not have to go along with my ideas. For gods sake, you are adults. And those who are offended with my opinions, should come to realise that I am not attacking them, but only defending my ideal of the Tarot of Marseille. If you take my opinions personally, then there is absolutely no debate possible with you. Enjoy your studies with the Fournier, enjoy its vibrant colours. :) I doubt I will be able to contribute much to your group but of course, if the threads land up in the Historical Forum, I will read them with pleasure as co-moderator. :) I remember that jmd has said on a few occasions that he likes the Fournier so he will probably enjoy your threads as well.

Moongold	08 Apr 2004
Diana ~ Most people here respect your knowledge of the Marseilles and also your very obvious love for it. I have admired some beautiful readings you have done with the Marseiles and it would be good to see more. You have given more detail about the things you don't like about the Fournier just now than in any of your other posts, instead of simply implying this deck is possibly not the most beautiful or the true blue (an Australian saying - pardon the pun). I think we have a lot to learn from you and from each other, and I hope you do still contribute to this learning. Moongold

Diana	08 Apr 2004
Well, I have my character and my way of saying things. I'm not going to change just because some people don't like me. I don't defend the Tarot of Marseille to be liked. If my aim in life was to be popular on the Aeclectic Tarot Forums, I would be oohing and aahing the far too many numerous and ridiculous Rider Waite clones. And if I was always lovey-ducky and gooey and if I spent my time patting people on the heads, firstly I would not be Diana, and secondly, no-one would sit up and pay attention. One of the reasons (I say ONE of the reasons) that people started paying attention to the Marseille was because I've been a bloody pain in the ass about it. The Tarot of Marseille is my passion and passionate people are not always easy to handle. At least my more passionate posts make people react. If I were a Thoth lover, I would be defending it as well from being desacralised. If I were a Rider Waite lover, I would defend it in exactly the same manner. We can make a parallel with art here... If someone makes a copy of Van Gogh's Sunflowers and paints them pink because they find that pretty. This doesn't mean that their picture is not pretty and not worthy of putting up in one's living room to admire. But it's no longer his painting. So in my view, the Fournier is a good clone. Not a bad clone. A good clone. And now I am done. (edited for spelling mistakes only)

Le_Corsair	08 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Major Tom's Tarot of Marseille... I find most interesting indeed, and take an active part in helping him design it, so it's not the woodcuts or whether one uses photoshop or whatever to design it. I don't care about the method used. One thing that I ask from a Tarot of Marseille is that it doesn't ADD unnecessary details like that stupid egg that Camoin and Jodorowsky put in their deck. (And of course, that it doesn't remove important details either.) Now, you do not have to go along with my ideas. For gods sake, you are adults. And those who are offended with my opinions, should come to realise that I am not attacking them, but only defending my ideal of the Tarot of Marseille. If you take my opinions personally, then there is absolutely no debate possible with you. I take it then, Diana, that you'd be really unhappy with Major Tom if he were to include a Happy Squirrel card in his Tarot of Marseille? :joke: Bob :THERM

Diana	08 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Le_Corsair I take it then, Diana, that you'd be really unhappy with Major Tom if he were to include a Happy Squirrel card in his Tarot of Marseille? :joke: Bob :THERM You know Bob, I think that would be just WONDERFUL!!!! A 23rd card.... you know what 23 would represent in the Tarot, don't you?

Lee	08 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana [...] At least until such time that the more sensitive souls have got used to my ideas. Or choose to ignore them. :) Quote: Originally posted by Diana Well, I have my character and my way of saying things. I'm not going to change just because some people don't like me. [...] And if I was always lovey-ducky and gooey and if I spent my time patting people on the heads, firstly I would not be Diana, and secondly, no-one would sit up and pay attention. [...] At least my more passionate posts make people react. Diana, does this mean I am allowed to passionately react to your posts, or are we still being told that if we disagree with your posts, we must ignore them and get used to them? -- Lee

lunakasha	08 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana And if I was always lovey-ducky and gooey and if I spent my time patting people on the heads, firstly I would not be Diana, and secondly, no-one would sit up and pay attention. One of the reasons (I say ONE of the reasons) that people started paying attention to the Marseille was because I've been a bloody pain in the ass about it. The Tarot of Marseille is my passion and passionate people are not always easy to handle. At least my more passionate posts make people react. Yes, Diana....and this is the reason that I hope you will continue posting here, passionately....your way of expressing your opinions might be difficult to hear sometimes, but it definitely does wake people up! I may not always agree with your opinions, but that does not mean that I don't want to hear them...reading your posts as well as those of jmd, Lee and Rusty made me take a serious look at the Marseille for the first time...thank you for that. We can make a parallel with art here... If someone makes a copy of Van Gogh's Sunflowers and paints them pink because they find that pretty. This doesn't mean that their picture is not pretty and not worthy of putting up in one's living room to admire. But it's no longer his painting. So in my view, the Fournier is a good clone. Not a bad clone. A good clone. And now I am done. Thanks Diana....NOW I understand what you are objecting to with the Fournier! If the fundamentals of the Marseille as you know it have been altered significantly, I can see how that might be unacceptable to you. As someone much less familiar with how the Marseille is "supposed" to look....the changes in the Fournier are not a problem for me. Thanks for clarifying this for me....and I seriously hope that you do not hold back from posting on the Marseille...keeping things interesting! How boring would life be if we all agreed on everything all the time??? :) Luna

Lee	08 Apr 2004
By the way, I disagree with the notion that there is some Platonic, "pure" Marseille deck which depends upon drabness in order to convey its meaning. -- Lee

Diana	08 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Lee Diana, does this mean I am allowed to passionately react to your posts, or are we still being told that if we disagree with your posts, we must ignore them and get used to them? -- Lee Lee, is this a rhetorical question? Are you actually asking my permission to respond to my posts? :confused: I already mentioned in a previous post that I posted that thing about ignoring and getting used to my posts because I was pissed off by a member telling me in a PM to stop speaking my mind. And I had explained that it was a reaction which I would not have had if I had waited a day before posting instead of getting all het up about some silly PM. And I had even said I had got over my tantrum. Perhaps you missed that post? Yes, I am human!!! I do get angry sometimes. Wow!! Who would have believed it?? You are welcome Lee to respond to my posts as you wish. In fact, your last passionate posts which led you (and also Rusty Neon) to call me a Fundamentalist really brought some wonderful positive results in my life and I thank you from the bottom of my heart. :) :) :) (I had even seriously contemplated changing my title from Seeker of Truth, to Tarot Fundamentalist - but I decided that for me the two are so close that it wouldn't make much difference.)

Lee	08 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana [...] In fact, your last passionate posts which led you (and also Rusty Neon) to call me a Fundamentalist really brought some wonderful positive results in my life and I thank you from the bottom of my heart. :) :) :) You are quite welcome! :) Along these lines, I'd just like to say that in my studies of astrology, I'm learning that interactions with people which are difficult and challenging are also the ones which provide the most potential for growth, so, frustrating as these exchanges can be sometimes, I echo Moongold's sentiment that we all continue to post our opinions. I would also like to thank you, Diana, for posting your exact reasons for disliking the Fournier. I was interested to read them, and I think a lot of friction could be avoided, when someone doesn't like something, if they could simply say so, and say the reasons why, rather than give disapproving hints and innuendoes, which I think is ultimately much more destructive than simply stating the negative opinion outright. -- Lee

mj07	08 Apr 2004
Okay, I'm totally new to the Marseilles and know little of Tarot history, but I'm confused. Is there supposedly a perfect "holy grail of tarot" out there? And if so, what does that mean, that all the tarot decks that followed it are inferior? Just confused, hope I'm not causing trouble... :D

Centaur	08 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by mj07 Okay, I'm totally new to the Marseilles and know little of Tarot history, but I'm confused. Is there supposedly a perfect "holy grail of tarot" out there? And if so, what does that mean, that all the tarot decks that followed it are inferior? In my opinion, there is no perfect holy grail of tarot. The most important thing is that you feel comfortable with the deck you are using, whether it be a Marseille, a Thoth, or an RW. :) Also, in my opinion, the age of a deck does not necessarily infuse that deck with great wisdom and knowledge. For instance, I would rather use the Quest Tarot than use a dry version of the Marseille dating back a hundred or so years. Ofcourse, now I have my Fournier, I am very happy with it, and I look forward to using it in my readings. I think it is very much a personal thing... it is all to do with whatever approach you most prefer.

Diana	08 Apr 2004
mj07: Yes, and this Holy Grail of Tarot is what the lovers of the Marseille are trying to find. I suppose, in the end, we will find it where the other Holy Grails are to be found. Until then, we will seek like all Knights seek. When I read your post, I am reminded of something that a scientist said recently (I work at the World Headquarters of an international Scientific organisation). He was speaking about the number pi, and I didn't understand all the technical stuff, but he made a mention of the Bible. The Old Testament. He spoke of the discoveries (which have been known for a long time, but which have been now also tested and proved with the help of computers) that the Old Testament in Hebrew showed a hidden structure. It is called "The Bible Code" and it interests also the scientific community, not only the religious community. And if only one letter is replaced or left out, the whole structure is broken. The odds of this happening are too great for it to be just a coincidence. This structure has allowed for the Old Testament (in Hebrew) to remain intact from personal interpretations and changes throughout the centuries. Well, those of us who believe that the Tarot is not only a Language, but also a hidden Code, are looking for a similar structure. And we sometimes get to touch the hem of it and it is damn AWESOME!!!!!!! (I think the Thoth deck and the Rider Waite deck also have a code - but related to the Golden Dawn, and Crowley's to his peculiar form of magic. Changing it removes the structure.)

Lee	08 Apr 2004
I agree with Centaur. If there is a "Holy Grail" of Tarot, hard evidence for it has not surfaced, which means we are free to believe or disbelieve in such a Holy Grail as we see fit. The fact that such a Holy Grail hasn't been found is very convenient, because it means we can, if we choose to, believe in one which just so happens to conform to our own preferences and prejudices. -- Lee

mj07	08 Apr 2004
cool, Diana! so now I wonder, is there something that predates even the Marseilles? or maybe I just need a good Tarot history book!

Diana	08 Apr 2004
You could start by reading the Corpus Hermeticum, for instance. (I'm not saying the Tarot is a resume of this book! That would be too easy!!!) And books on the Middle Ages. Even novels. It is only by tiny little glimpses that we sense the wonder of it. But I tell you, the day you get your first glimpse, your heart will soar like a bird's. :)

Centaur	08 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Lee The fact that such a Holy Grail hasn't been found is very convenient, because it means we can choose to believe in one which just so happens to conform to our own preferences and prejudices. I agree. I think that one's preference should be that... a preference. When I refer to myself as 'connecting' to a deck, I refer to the ease with which I can establish links, associations, and intuitive-pathways with the imagery. It is these very factors which impact upon my whole tarot-experience and make it enjoyable. Yes, I use the RW and Thoth systems of interpretation and symbolism, but I also rely heavily on first impressions, and intuitive flashes spurned by the images I see on the cards. For me, this works. Therefore for me, I guess you could say that this is my personal 'Holy-Grail'. May I also add that I do not like the term 'Holy-Grail', but nevertheless it serves it's purpose here in explaining what I am talking about. ;) In my opinion one's view of what is the 'Holy-Grail' of tarot is a purely a subjective experience. If a certain system of approach works for you, then you should use it. Everybody is different, and I do not see the point in arguing about what deck is better, because it is what the person does with that deck, and how he or she relates to that deck, which makes it a valuable tool.

Dark Inquisitor	08 Apr 2004
Diana, you have stated in a previous post that you have been "fighting for the Marseilles." Which makes me curious to know : What exactly are you fighting for? Whom are you fighting with?

Diana	08 Apr 2004
Tarotphelia: Wonderful question. Would you like to start up a new thread about it? Because we're already getting so off-topic here and that would really be more a thread about "Diana" than anything to do with the Fournier. :) Perhaps in the Chat forum? I don't think it would be suitable for a Tarot forum because it is really more about me than Tarot, right? You are still a subscriber, aren't you?

Dark Inquisitor	08 Apr 2004
No, I am not a subscriber- and since it is about the Marseilles it would seem to be better suited to a tarot than a chat forum. I am sure other people who have read your posts and are not subscribers would be interested to know what your thoughts are. And you should start the thread, since it is about your thoughts.

Diana	08 Apr 2004
Will the moderator please split this thread and put these posts about my personal little struggle where they think it suitable? (I think I am not important enough in the Tarot world to have a whole thread about me in Talking Tarot, and it would be more suitable in the Chat forum because this has nothing to do with Tarot but only about me. But I'll accept the moderator's decision.) "What am I fighting for?" The Tarot of Marseille! - lol - "Whom am I fighting?" It’s not a question of whom. I am not fighting any human being. I fight against ignorance. I have all my life. When I was younger, I would fight against apartheid, which was another form of ignorance. Some people would laugh and say “What an idealist!!! She fights against racism!!! Ha! Ha! Ha!” And even worse, those who actually supported apartheid and the ignorance from which it stemmed, would try and trample me (and my brothers and sisters in the struggle) and even try and ruin my reputation as an activist. (It was easy for them – as I was South African, rumours could be spread that I was a spy!!!!!.) They lost in the end. That's all. It's as simple as that.

Lee	08 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana It’s not a question of whom . I am not fighting any human being. I fight against ignorance. I have all my life. I understand, Diana, that you are not fighting any human being. But your statement, "I fight against ignorance," still begs the question: Does this mean that if we disagree with you, we are ignorant? Or are we just "duped"? -- Lee

Diana	08 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Lee Does this mean that if we disagree with you, we are ignorant? Or are we just "duped"? -- Lee No to both questions.

Centaur	08 Apr 2004
I do not think that this thread should be split. These issues where raised in the context of the Fournier, and thus I feel that they should be explored on this thread. Diana expressed her opinion on the Fournier, certain issues arose, and it would be interesting to see where the discussion leads. If we all requested that a thread be split every time we were asked to justify our stance on a specific deck, then the Chat section would be one very over-populated thread indeed.

Dark Inquisitor	08 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana I am not important enough in the Tarot world to have a whole thread about me in Talking Tarot, and it would be more suitable in the Chat forum because this has nothing to do with Tarot but only about me. But I'll accept the moderator's decision.) "What am I fighting for?" The Tarot of Marseille! - lol - "Whom am I fighting?" It’s not a question of whom . I am not fighting any human being. I fight against ignorance. I have all my life. I was not asking about your personal struggles, but only your fight for the Marseille and what exactly that is all about. Whom are you fighting is more of a general question, and not anyone in particular. To say you are fighting for the Marseille might imply that you are defending it against something or someone who is against it , rather than FOR it as you are.

Diana	08 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Tarotphelia I To say you are fighting for the Marseille might imply that you are defending it against something or someone who is against it , rather than FOR it as you are. Oh well, then it's a good thing this little misunderstanding has been cleared up. :) It just shows how important words are and how they can be interpreted according to who reads them and how the words have been used. Language is a complicated thing.

WolfyJames	08 Apr 2004
I remember when I was reading the threads (I still do) in History & Iconographie Forum, I wanted to know more about Tarot de Marseille (still do), and I didn't have any Tarot de Marseille under my hands to really follow what was going on. Actually I did, I used an hideous tarot de Marseille that came with a set of books I bought, the crude type, that looked like these old Tarot de Marseille decks here. It was identical in style and in color to these ancient decks, it could have passed as a cousin easily. Problem was that the deck was not a real Marseille deck, it never followed the Tarot de Marseille rules. Every card was wrong. So I was very angry, felt cheated, not only I hated that deck for being hideous (even JMD agrees that this deck is not pretty, look in the Trading Forum), but I couldn't even use it for study (which gave me a second reason to burn it). So I read carefully the History & Iconographie Forum for tips for which deck I should buy, or should I say, which decks follow the rules and deserve to be called a Tarot de Marseille. I checked the tarot decks one by one and I liked the Tarot Classic, by US Games, but JMD wrote that this deck was not a real Tarot de Marseille (even if it's always put along with other Marseille decks), so I didn't put it in my wishlist. I saw the Fournier and loved the colors, Fournier was on the JMD list of real Tarot de Marseille decks, so I picked this one instead of the others (that I saw and didn't like). What I'm trying to say, in my long post, is that I was looking for a real Tarot de marseille that follows the Marseille's rules at the letter, and at the same time I was looking for a deck that would please me. The Fournier is that deck. I now can appreciate the Tarot de Marseille and study it. The Fournier, being a real tarot de Marseille, and following the Marseille's rules, I really don't understand how you say, Diana, that you won't be able to understand our discussions about the Fournier. There won't be special threads based on the Fournier (maybe a few, like with other decks), we will be discussing about the Tarot de Marseille, like everyone else here who has a real tarot de Marseilles that follows the Marseille's rules. The colors might be different, but the rest is the same. If my memory serves me right, it's based on the Conver.

Diana	08 Apr 2004
Ah WolfyJames!!! You're going to persuade me now to buy a Fournier! :laugh: Who knows, I may even become an adept thanks to you! Stranger things have happened in the world.

lark	08 Apr 2004
I really think you should buy one Diana. Then you could compare it to your favorite decks and tell us what is different and the same. Even if you don't like the colors it might have other merits that you are over looking. I have a Fournier to, it is my only Marseille deck. I like Wolfy spent many hours trying to find one that was true to the "rules' as Wolfy says, yet that appealed to me. I think what makes me sad about this thread is that I took the time and trouble to do all of this and now my choice is seen as not a good one. I think that is what's bothering most of the people who have discovered the beauty of the Fournier lately. We want our choice to be seen with as much respect as any other Marseille deck used by others.

Lee	08 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by lark I think that is what's bothering most of the people who have discovered the beauty of the Fournier lately. We want our choice to be seen with as much respect as any other Marseille deck used by others. Lark, I completely agree with you, and this is exactly the reason I get so frustrated. I think it's a shame that people end up feeling bad because their choice of decks is judged to be not good enough by someone. I think really, the only thing to do is to just know that whatever decks we pick to work with or just enjoy, there will always be someone who gets offended by our choice and becomes cranky. Some people are just like that. You in no way need to feel that your choices are inferior to anyone else's. I'm not a Marseille novice, by the way. I bought my first one (a Grimaud) about 25 years ago, and have been reading about and experimenting with them ever since. As of now I have about six versions. The first time I saw the Fournier was in one of Kaplan's Encyclopedias, and I immediately wanted it, but it took me years to find it. When I did, I was delighted. I usually use the Hadar, but I'm still very fond of the Fournier. -- Lee

Diana	08 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by lark I think what makes me sad about this thread is that I took the time and trouble to do all of this and now my choice is seen as not a good one. Lark: Trust your own intuitions. So many people like this deck. So just take my views with a pinch of salt. Don't forget that jmd, who knows plenty about the Marseille, likes this deck. I'm just one person. You haven't seen me yet in action when it comes to the Camoin!!! My friends have heard me "live" - some agree with me, others don't - but I'm waiting till his book comes out first. Maybe he will explain things that I do not twig on to. I'm just a Seeker of Truth. I'm not the Holder of Truth. But I seek with a vengeance. Just accept that I'm like this when it comes to the Marseille. What you don't like - chuck away, or persuade me otherwise. What you like, I offer gladly. And I will buy a Fournier. But it will have to wait till May, when I get my salary.

lark	08 Apr 2004
Well that should be interesting. I'll have to remember to batten down the hatches. Quote: And I will buy a Fournier. But it will have to wait till May, when I get my salary. I'm very glad to hear that. I always use my intuition.....that is what I'm passionate about.

lunakasha	08 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana And I will buy a Fournier. But it will have to wait till May, when I get my salary. I think that you might be pleasantly surprised by these cards, Diana...at the very least you will be able to compare and contrast them with the other Marseille decks and form your opinion based on more than just the coloration. Who knows??? You might even find that you enjoy some of the differences once you get to know the cards and work with them for awhile! :) I remember once you had posted that you felt many people did not give the Marseille a chance because they saw the cards as "ugly"....you suggested that people should not judge a book by its cover. Well, maybe it is the same with judging the Fournier for its cover because it is too colorful or "pretty"? Personally, I was one of those people...I bought the Fournier because the colors were very appealing to me, unlike other Marseille decks I had considered. But now that I have begun to study and appreciate the Marseille, it is interesting that the other, so-called "ugly" decks are becoming much more beautiful to me!!! I am now very glad that I took your advice and took a closer look at these cards...there is so much beauty within them! :) Luna

Lee	08 Apr 2004
One thing I like about this deck is that there are Roman numerals on the pip cards, so you can tell whether they're upright or reversed. -- Lee

Moongold	08 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by lunakasha Personally, I was one of those people...I bought the Fournier because the colors were very appealing to me, unlike other Marseille decks I had considered. But now that I have begun to study and appreciate the Marseille, it is interesting that the other, so-called "ugly" decks are becoming much more beautiful to me!!! I am now very glad that I took your advice and took a closer look at these cards...there is so much beauty within them! I feel the same. As I said in another post, my first Marseilles was the Conver but it was difficult to engage with, leading me to the Fournier. Last week I ordered a Camoin and yesterday a Hadar. I've also ordered a Visconti (not Marseilles but earlier I think). This is because the Marseilles became appealing and interesting through the energy and vitality of the Fournier. Now I have overdone it and feel a little guilty. I haven't seen the other decks yet or held them in my hands but I'm looking forward to their arrival. The Fournier really speaks to me, however, as the Tarot of Prague does. Metaphorically at least, they both evoke quite strong, flowing thoughts and images. The colours of the Fournier appeal so strongly. I like their strength because I have trouble seeing colours sometimes. Their joyful vitality makes me feel as if I am on holidays. :)

punchinella	08 Apr 2004
Moongold, I hope you love your new Hadar when it comes as much as I love mine (it's beautiful--more beautiful even than Fournier, imo . . . ) & to everybody: this has become such a wonderful thread! I'm enjoying it immensely, thank you (I like a good argument, personally) . . . I particularly enjoyed the 'Holy Grail' discussion. This is a very exciting idea . . . all the more exciting to me because I know that due to a lack of hard evidence, the choice to believe & pursue it is indeed a choice. Why limit oneself to empirical thinking . . . skepticism can be so dull (this is my personal opinion only, of course). To pursue something passionately even in the face empirical 'silence' is glorious . . . Diana is glorious . . . (well, she might disagree about the empirical silence I suppose; newbie that I am I really have no idea . . . ) I am reminded of a term that I learned a couple of weeks ago in the History & Iconography forum: Ur-tarot. This was described as the most original impulse, the true spirit of tarot (the argument being that many people have independently come to view Marseilles decks as most closely adhering to/representing this spirit . . . ) This idea is like porcupine quills under the skin. I am reminded of Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco. --I suppose I should reread it before saying so though (ah well, too late :D ) Anyway, thanks for a great thread :D :D :D Punchinella

Darla	25 Apr 2004
I just ordered the Fournier from Alida too (as well as the LS Secret Tarot) and I'm sooo curious about it! All this talk made me wanting to have a Marseille deck too, Jewel-ry gave me a very insightful reading with the Fournier and now, as you all know, it is on sale at Alida. So it all came together and now I'm awaiting my first Marseille deck! :) I'm curious how I will manage to read the pips. I learned to read with the Sacred Circle, whose pips aren't exactly Marseille style but not RW either. So maybe I have a bit of knowledge I can rely on. I have a question though. I couldn't find out for sure when the Tarot de Marseille was originally published (regardless of the Fournier colouring). 1760??? And when did the Fournier edition came out?

Jewel-ry	25 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Darla I have a question though. I couldn't find out for sure when the Tarot de Marseille was originally published (regardless of the Fournier colouring). 1760??? And when did the Fournier edition came out? You probably need to ask this on the H&I forum, I am sure someone will know the answer. J :)

Emily	25 Apr 2004
I hadn't really paid much attention to the Fournier then saw some scans of it. I usually go for the Soprafino decks and not the TdM but the Fournier is very pretty, it reminds me very much of the Soprafino decks. I like the bold colours and the way the deck has been re-drawn, but the Majors do still have the feel of the TdM. I traded for mine with Centaur and was very pleased with it. I don't usually feel comfortable with the Marseille style but I do like this deck and am able to use it. I think the expressions on the Courts and Majors are lovely. :)

The My new deck - Fournier thread was originally posted on 06 Mar 2004 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.