Some Thoth Detective Work...

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 06 Mar 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Kiama	06 Mar 2004
Hi folks! I purchased this deck from Ebay a couple of days ago... It is a very old Thoth deck that has been in use since the 1970's. The box is white, with the OTO sign on it, but no printing date is given anywhere. It is actually a very sturdy box, alot sturdier than the modern ones we get, and you pull it open by tugging at the bottom, whereupon a golden box is pulled out, which contains the cards. The cards have the usual back, though no border on the back, and the cards, whilst having a border, have no pattern on that border: they're just plain border which look slightly blue/green. The card that comes with it states: "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" Aleister Crowley designed this Tarot as illustrations for the Book of Thoth. They were painted by Lady Frieda Harris, and are now issued as cards. To use them is to learn. To use them with the delicacy of great art is to embark on the path of initiation. Those interested in the qabalistic and astrological attributions of these cards are referred to Aleister Crowley's 777 and The Book of Thoth. Those interested in the Thelemic attributions are referred to Aleister Crowley's Liber Al vel Legis (The Book of the Law), especially chapter 1:57, where it is written: 'All these old letters of my book are aright; But Tzaddi is not the Star.' Love is the Law, Love Under Will Hymenaeus Alpha, Caliph Ordo Templi Orientis Box 2043 Dublin, CA 94566" I am eager to know what date this was printed, what edition it is... If anybody has any idea based on the 'clues' given here, please post! Thanks, Kiama

Phoenyx*	06 Mar 2004
Wow Kiama! That sounds so awesome. Maybe someone in the Thoth studygroup knows, I wish I did. :) My best guess is that it may have been printed at the same time as the first paperback edition of the first Weiser publication of the Book of Thoth in 1974. Editted to add: Weiser publications can be found here.

crystal cove	06 Mar 2004
You lucky girl! I have no clue regarding the edition. Just wanted to say that I'm sooooooo jealous! ;)

Strange2	06 Mar 2004
Kiama, The version of the Crowley Thoth deck you have sounds like the 1969 edition, published by Samuel Weiser. According to Kaplan's Encyclopedia of Tarot, vol. III, pg. 152: "In 1969, another edition of the Crowley deck was issued, but the quality did not achieve the potential of the cards. In 1977, a new full-color edition was issued jointly by U.S. Games Systems and Samuel Weiser" An acquaintance of mine has the 1969 deck, which she got in 1977. She has also seen the 1977 U.S. Games/Weiser deck, but this did not have the slipcase box. I have attached a scan of the 1969 box. Is this the version you have? What a great catch!

Rusty Neon	06 Mar 2004
[delete]

Kiama	06 Mar 2004
Strange2, yep, that looks like the edition I have! Thanks for posting the picture... I really wish boxes like that were still made... :( Thanks for all your help folks! *Kiama does excited dance* :D Kiama

Silverlotus	06 Mar 2004
I saw a similar copy at my (then) local used book store late last year. I didn't pick it up because I had just bought the small Thoth deck a few weeks earlier. Anyway, I would guess that it was published in the 1970s at some time. Just a guess, mostly because I remember reading something about it somewhere around the same time. I can't remember where, unfortunately.

Rusty Neon	04 Jan 2005
Kiama wrote: Hi folks! I purchased this deck from Ebay a couple of days ago... It is a very old Thoth deck that has been in use since the 1970's. The box is white, with the OTO sign on it, but no printing date is given anywhere. It is actually a very sturdy box, alot sturdier than the modern ones we get, and you pull it open by tugging at the bottom, whereupon a golden box is pulled out, which contains the cards. The cards have the usual back, though no border on the back, and the cards, whilst having a border, have no pattern on that border: they're just plain border which look slightly blue/green. The card that comes with it states: "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" Aleister Crowley designed this Tarot as illustrations for the Book of Thoth. They were painted by Lady Frieda Harris, and are now issued as cards. To use them is to learn. To use them with the delicacy of great art is to embark on the path of initiation. Those interested in the qabalistic and astrological attributions of these cards are referred to Aleister Crowley's 777 and The Book of Thoth. Those interested in the Thelemic attributions are referred to Aleister Crowley's Liber Al vel Legis (The Book of the Law), especially chapter 1:57, where it is written: 'All these old letters of my book are aright; But Tzaddi is not the Star.' Love is the Law, Love Under Will Hymenaeus Alpha, Caliph Ordo Templi Orientis Box 2043 Dublin, CA 94566" I am eager to know what date this was printed, what edition it is... If anybody has any idea based on the 'clues' given here, please post! Thanks, Kiama In today's mail, I received a deck that matches the data that Kiama gives in her post above, except that my deck has the oversize outer box (to fit the golden inner box) but is missing the golden inner box. My deck has the Dublin, CA card. On the last line of the Dublin, CA card, there is: "THOTH TAROT CARDS Printed in Hong Kong" I'm wondering whether this deck is the 1969 edition or whether it is the 1977 edition. On the side of the box, it reads: THOTH TAROT CARDS by Aleister Crowley Published by Llewelyn Publications, St. Paul, Minn. 55165, U.S.A. Printed in Hong Kong The cards are not coated. The images are in colour. The borders are generally bluish-greenish in colour, but tint varies from card to card. Some are white-bluish-greenish. The borders are plain, i.e., no pattern-design. The 8 of Cups is missing the "8" in the top border. Perhaps this is a defect unique to my deck? My deck doesn't have a LWB. Did the 1977/1969 decks come with a LWB? Thanks!

Cerulean	05 Jan 2005
I heard and read Lon Duquette's story of buying a Thoth deck about 30 years ago and his gold-box discovery of the Thoth was that it was a beautiful deck of images, but the only book he could find was a Crowley paperback imported from England that a friend bought for him. No little white book to help him. In 1978, U.S. Games published a box and booklet for the green-tinged, Belgium-printed Thoth deck and it was distributed in the U.S.A under the ISBN of 0-913866-15-6. That is the only early Thoth version that I have heard of with a booklet by James Wasserman. My booklet has the thin coated paper. The same booklet text on coated stock is distributed in subsequent U.S. Games versions --but this booklet is not the same as my "Tarot Hermit" booklet in my more recent color-improved blue-boxed AG Mueller printing My vintage 1978 Thoth is the U.S. Games version--I hope that my answer helps answer your question. By the way, the Ordo Templi Orientis card you described came with both my 1978 and subsequent blue-box deck (bought in 1999/2000). Also Lon Duquette's book "My Life with Spirits" and lectures seem to mention an amusing story of how he contacted an address provided with the deck (is this in your deck?) he bought and began his 'magical' career... Best wishes, Cerulean

Lillie	05 Jan 2005
To add my deck, for the purposes of comparison and information. Bought on Ebay at Christmas. White outer slipcase, with rose cross back design on back of box. Identical to box in scan picture by Strange2. On the side of box it says it was distributed by weiser and printed in USA. The box is great, I wish they still did boxes like that. So sturdy, so easy to use. (except the inner box falls out if I pick it up wrong!) Cards have no borders on backs, and plain borders on the front. There is no ISBN, no LWB, no OTO card. Some of the cards are very poorly printed. The 3 & 4 of swords look washed out and the 6 of Discs is even worse. However, this is not damage, but appears to be just poor printing. The seller thought they came from 74. The book that was with them definatley did. I don't know wether she knew or was just making an assumption. I asked, but she did not reply. I have been trying to get details of all Thoth editions together on the study group board. I thought it might be a good resource for anyone trying to identify a deck, or thinking of getting a particular edition. If anyone with a Thoth would like to add their edition to this list I would be very glad of your help. I believe that the first edition was by Llewellyn in 69, printed in Hong kong. And the Weiser edition like mine came a little later. Though I would like to know when exactly they published this 'slip case' edition. Was this 77? I thought the 77 edition had an ordinary (2 flap) box, an ISBN and a LWB, and green borders.

Asher	04 Feb 2005
I'm glad I remembered reading this thread a few weeks ago! I just found a copy of this edition at a local used book store. It has the white outer box, the gold inner box, and the OTO card from Dublin, CA. BUT, my Dublin card says "Printed in USA" and the sides of the box proclaim "Published by Llewellyn Publications". Other than this, my set is identical to that described by Rusty Neon: inconsistent coloration of borders, no "8" on the 8 of Cups, unlaminated, etc. Very interesting...and no date of publication anywhere. Anyone know why Llwellyn stopped publishing this deck and how it got over to USG?? Asher Edited to add: According to Kaplan's Encyclopedia (vol. 3): "In 1969, another edition of the Crowley deck was issued, but the quality did not achieve the potential of the cards. In 1977...a new, full-color edition was issued jointly by U.S. Games Systems and Samuel Weiser." This maybe the Llewellyn edition. My other editions of this deck, published by AG Muller are dated 1986. These are the 'blue box' Swiss printing and the sets with books by Gerd Ziegler (Tarot: Mirror of the Soul and Tarot: Mirror of Your Relationships)

Lillie	04 Feb 2005
Lucky you! what a good find! I have been looking into this subject. It seems to me that the 77 USG/Weiser editions were the green bordered cards. USG puplishe them in a normal, flap top, white OTO box from 77. Weiser seems tohave publishe the same deck in a green 2 of Discs box from around 78. There appear to be 3 versions of the 'gold box' thoth, all with minor differences on the cards and/or boxes. I have seen 2 go on ebay recently, fetching $71 and $61 each. (There was another one that went for £6, but this was cos there was no picture or proper discription. The buyer didn't know what they was buying till it fell through the door onto the dog.) So, depending on what you paid, you have a nice little investment there. We have been discussing this topic in the Thoth Study Group, in a thread called 'list of editions' (Great originality shown there by the person who named the thread.)

Asher	04 Feb 2005
Thank you Lillie, I'll check out the "editions" thread. I think I do have a nice investment -- it only cost me $9.95, and came with a paperback edition of the Book of Thoth, published by Lancer Books (out of NY). Asher

Rusty Neon	04 Feb 2005
For the benefit of future readers of this present thread, here's the link to the other thread mentioned by Lillie: "Thoth - List of Editions" thread http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=440548

The Some Thoth Detective Work... thread was originally posted on 06 Mar 2004 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.