Can anyone tell me more about Thoth

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 24 Apr 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

JulieG	24 Apr 2004
Hi - I'm Julie: the latest Newbie. Nice to be here. Bear with me if I ask lame questions that everyone else got past years ago - I'm still learning. I've dabbled in Tarot for years, but only to the degree that I would still consider myself a learner. I'm using Rider Waite at present: been my favourite deck for years and I don't seem comfy with others I've tried (Vampire, Nefertiti, Old English, Ancient Egyptian, Sacred Rose, Medieval Scapini to name a few). But I'd harboured a real desire for Thoth for ages - avoiding it only because I thought it too advanced for me. I wanted a deck that ultimately would give very deep readings and also go into the numerology/astorological etc elements of complex Tarot readings. Can anyone tell me their thoughts on a few points, which will help me know where to go from here? 1) Is Thoth, realistically, a deck someone realtively new to Tarot can grasp? 2) What Tarot related subjects should I study to get most use from readings with such a deck? (e.g. Numerology). Any books you can suggest? 3) Any suggestions for good books to accompany the deck? 4) Just how well a handle on Tarot do you need to be able to advance to Thoth? If you have thoughts on alternative decks you think would be worth considering, I'd love to hear from you. Thanks all. JULIE

closrapexa	24 Apr 2004
Well, I'm new to the Thoth myself, but ever since I decide I wanted it, I started studying it months beforehand, at least in theory. Now, the Thoth is a complex deck by any account, and a fascinating one. Now, whether a beginner is ready to tackle it, depends on several factors. How do you connect to the cards? How have you honed your intuition? If I sound a little uppity, thats not my intention. But ultimately, its all a question of what you are ready to put into it. Some people connect straight off to the imagery in the Thoth, I myself feel that I need a bit of "book learning" to understand the symbolism and the archtypes. All a question of your own preferences. However. if you feel that you want to study the symbolism, a book might be important. There are several good books relating to the deck, I just can't remember any of them now, but there are several threads that deal with them. I found the thread about the books, mine actually Here

ScarabFlight	25 Apr 2004
Hi there. I'm also new to tarot and I don't have any experience with the Thoth, but I do have some ideas for other decks. :) I just got the Golden Tarot and LOVE it. It's very readable and gorgeous to boot! If you are looking for a fun other type of deck you may want to check out the Faeries Oracle. It's a bit different but very interactive and it comes with a great book to help you to get into the cards. Very playful. Hope this helps. I look forward to seeing what you eventually get pulled to, good luck and enjoy the ride. :D

Niomi	25 Apr 2004
I've been very fascinated and awed by the Thoth deck, but because it is so complex I've been saving it for later. Also, by looking at samples at my new age store, the minors don't appear to be illustrated-- which is something I'm defiantly not comfortable with yet. In fact, its the main reason I immediately stopped using my first deck after I bought it. I first purchased the Egyptian Tarot by Lo Scarabeo, but replaced it with Ancient Egyptian by Clive Barret. I've found Ancient Egyptian much more readable and have become very close to it-- so much so that I usually consider it to be my first deck. I find out more about ancient egyptian life and symbols every time I read with it! Hehe, I know I've babbled on a bit. Hope you still manage to find this information useful. XD

Ani	25 Apr 2004
Hello Julie, I started with the Thoth deck a few years ago and it definately is a great deck but I have had to switch to other decks every once in a while. The book of Thoth is a really intense book on the subject but I would not recomend it for a beginner, but probably a good one to have if you are going to be serious about learning this deck. I think "Mirror of the Soul" is a good one for beginners, it easily describes the symbolism and has simple sugestions for the meanings. There is a few others out there I have not read yet. Numerology in Tarot is pretty basic, learn the energies of the 10 numbers, doesn't really require deep study. Qabalah is a good thing to study for understanding this deck, but I don't know of any good books on the subject, preferably one that relates qabalah with tarot. There is also a great study group of the Thoth deck on the forum, I am sure there will be someone who can answer any questions. Good Luck!

JulieG	25 Apr 2004
Thanks everyone! That's put my mind at rest, though I must admit I didn't know the pip cards weren't illustrated beyond the basics so I'm not sure how I'll manage with that. I'll probably hang back on the deck a little until I've really become fluent with the Rider Waite and learned more generally about the cards before I graduate to Thoth then. I'm expecting the cards to arrive on Tuesday (only just ordered them) and I'm sure I'll end up dabbling in them anyway - it'd be great if I did get that instant connection with them (I did with the Rider Waite but no other deck since). I'll let you know how I get on. Thanks for the other deck and book suggestions - I'll check those out.

JulieG	25 Apr 2004
Thanks everyone! That's put my mind at rest, though I must admit I didn't know the pip cards weren't illustrated beyond the basics so I'm not sure how I'll manage with that. I'll probably hang back on the deck a little until I've really become fluent with the Rider Waite and learned more generally about the cards before I graduate to Thoth then. I'm expecting the cards to arrive on Tuesday (only just ordered them) and I'm sure I'll end up dabbling in them anyway - it'd be great if I did get that instant connection with them (I did with the Rider Waite but no other deck since). I'll let you know how I get on. Thanks for the other deck and book suggestions - I'll check those out.

CreativeFire	25 Apr 2004
Hi JulieG I am another one fairly new to the Thoth. I have been using Rider-Waite types for a while now and was just drawn to the Thoth and am just getting into studying it. You may find it interesting to study the Thoth cards along side your Rider-Waite as you will find some base similarities (even though some are very different in their images) in some of the cards and may help you a bit with the understanding - just an idea, as I have just started doing this while I am waiting for my Thoth book that I have ordered to come in "The Crowley Tarot Handbook" by Banzhaf. I was also a bit concerned when I first noticed that the minors where only what looked liked pips but once I started looking at them a bit closer I noticed that there are other symbols in the images - like the handles on the swords etc that also give you some clues. Good luck with your Thoth and hope you enjoy it as much as I am enjoying mine. :) CreativeFire

Alta	25 Apr 2004
Hi Julieg, I just started with the Thoth a few months ago. I have a couple of books, including The Book of Thoth. The art is startling and the majors are lovely and show very different sides to the archetypal meanings. The pips are sort of illustrated. Not like the Marseille pips which just have the odd flower, or the arrangement of the symbols to go by, but rather they do allow the meanings to come through. I like the deck and it rewards study. You do not need to understand the mysteries of Thelema or the like, though reading a book on the numerological associations helps. Lon Milo DuQuette's book "Understanding Aleiter Crowley's Thoth Tarot" helped me the most.

JulieG	25 Apr 2004
Hi all! You're all getting me so excited about the impending arrival of my first Thoth deck! Creativefire - what you say about the symbols is precisely what I was hoping for. Marion - got that book on order now from Amazon: thanks for recommending it. It's like Christmas! I'm that excited.

Ani	25 Apr 2004
I'm sure you will get hooked! I've learned alot about this deck by using them next to other decks to compare the energies, now when I am reading with the other decks I usually see images of the Thoth cards in my minds eye.

Emily	25 Apr 2004
Hi JulieG, Most of the books you can get on the Thoth are pretty good and will give you a good start to understanding the cards. In the Thoth study group some of these books are mentioned in more detail. The only Thoth book I'm not keen on is the Angeles Arrien one. The Thoth is a detailed and deep deck and I found that to be able to even start to understand this deck I had to really look at the images, close to study really. Even now its not a deck I can just pick up and do a reading with like I can with the Morgan Greer which is a Rider Waite clone. But the readings I have done with it have been intense. The images do speak to me - its just sometimes I don't understand what they are trying to say lol. :)

Little Baron	02 Oct 2004
I have had a couple of editions of the Thoth knocking about for a year or so, but I am only starting to connect with the deck now. The minor cards, for me, are very illustrated, in the sense that when I see a grouping of them, regardless of what is shown in the picture, the colours react with me and help me with the energies of the reading. I have journaled my own feelings about the cards but do look into the Banzhaf book for understanding of the symbols within the cards. This is a complex deck but I think that if you connect with it, there is no reason why it should not be okay for a beginner. My first deck was the Rohrig, which is Thoth based, so I never had the whole Rider Waite scenic minors as a starting base anyway. I am reading a book which relates the tarot cards to the paths of the Tree of Life in the Kabbalah at the moment. Having mentioned this, I would not recommed it right now as it is pretty heavy going and I am sure that I am goingt o have to start it all over again, as for the most, I havn't got a clue what the author is trying to tell me, hehe. Hope you enjoy your deck and best wishes Yaboot

Gardener	02 Oct 2004
Just a personal opinion, but I think the artwork of the deck is so amazing that you don't need to know kabbalah, numerology or astrology to get a lot out of the cards. The colors, the symbols, it's all very rich and rewarding - the more I stare into the cards, the more associations seem to surface. The place where I am learning the most about using the deck, at the moment, is the Daily Draw with Thoth in the Your Readings forum. I love picking up Crowley's own book and reading a card at a time. More than that is like doing jello shots. The Hajo Banzhaf really helps to clarify the symbolism, to find the underlying logic, but personally I like the illogical side of the deck more! Yaboot, which tarot/tree of life book are you reading? I tried the Isabel Kliegman but found it stiflingly dull. No new insights into the cards, no deep treatment of the tree. Rachel Pollack's book The Kabbalah Tree, on the other hand, is AMAZING!!!! Opinions?

Mesara	02 Oct 2004
I agree with Gardener about how the intensity of the artwork of this deck compensates for a lack of understanding of kabbalah or numerology, etc. While it's always nice to have a reference book of some kind (the ones mentioned by Creativefire and Marion are both great) to further your understanding of the symbols and such, I don't think you should feel that you have to kill yourself with intense study before you pick up this deck. Yes, it's a bit advanced for beginners, but by no means off limits. A little bit of study, mixed in with your own daily meditations and journaling of the cards, and you will feel comfortable with this deck in no time! Like I and others have already mentioned, the artwork is so stunning and symbolic in it's own right that you will be able to pick up on meanings just fine.

Little Baron	02 Oct 2004
Heres a link to the book. Completely agree with everyone when they say that there is enough in the deck, without having to study a lot of the other stuff on top, or to begin with. http://www.discountnewagebooks.com/browseproducts/Aquarian-Qabalah--The.html Yaboot

mj07	04 Oct 2004
I have a couple little comments to add! First off, as a relative newbie, I was afraid to delve into the Thoth for a number of months. I kept putting it off and putting it off, until I came across this site http://hrih.hypermart.net/divinations/tarot/openings/ that is basically replicating info from the "Mirror to the Soul" book, if I'm not mistaken! The beauty of the cards really stood out for me when put on a black background, and I loved the interpretations so much, I just HAD to finally go out and get the deck! Since then, it's become my primary reading deck, even though at times I'm not sure I agree with Crowley's take on a card (especially the 7 of discs as "failure"). There's really just so much to learn from it, and the pips are FAR from unillustrated! Good luck!

SongDeva	06 Oct 2004
The Thoth was my very first deck. It didn't resonate with me, but then I wasn't looking for something to study. I was called to work with a deck that evoked information through it's art, and the Thoth wasn't it for me. However, it was a good start (even so) and now I'm more interested in it again.

sarahbellum	06 Oct 2004
I'd have to second SongDeva. I just never quite took to the Thoth. In fact I get much deeper readings from a couple of other decks. That's the amazing thing about Tarot. What speaks incredibly clearly to one person barely mumbles to another. I am one of the people who have trouble separating the designer/planner of a deck from the deck itself--whenever I pick up the Thoth I can't help thinking about Crowley, and I find that interferes with readings. Same problem with Osho.

lawguy51	06 Oct 2004
Ah, the Thoth. Almost two years now and we're still in love. You can talk yourself into thinking the Thoth is a tough deck but think of it this way. I went to law school. Some might consider that a tough 3 years. On the first day I knew nothing. On the second I knew a little bit more than the first. By the third year...I still knew nothing but that doesn't help my point ;) . The Thoth is the gift that keeps on giving. Someone above said you don't need to 'know' it to use it and I agree. Someone else commented that the pips aren't illustrated and others have commented on that but I would ask anyone who doubts that the pips aren't illustrated and don't tell a story to pull out the 8 of cups or the 7 of disks and tell me you don't see a story there. And I don't think anyone has mentioned the court cards (apologies if I missed it). They are the reason I stuck with the Thoth. It has the best court cards of any deck I've ever seen imho. Beginners...begin. The Thoth is like going to University. If you're up for it, you're going to get a lot out of it. Lawguy51

Alta	07 Oct 2004
I agree with lawguy. The court cards are now the ones I think about, even when using another deck. To me the minors are richly illustrated, especially when compared to the Marseille, or some decks which just have the appropriate number of symbols, nothing else. The deck can be off-putting, and I will not say that it speaks in a totally clear voice for me, but I am learning.

Alrisha	10 Oct 2004
I've been studying Thoth for 3 months using this book titled "Understanding Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot" by Lon Milo DuQuette. The book gives you brief background information about Crowley, numerology, kabbalah and astrology. There's of course description on each card including quotes from the Book of Thoth. I highly recommend this book. Hope this helps. =D

The Can anyone tell me more about Thoth thread was originally posted on 24 Apr 2004 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.