Old English Minors Revisited

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 17 Apr 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Shalott	17 Apr 2004
Hi, I did some research, online and with the books "Mirror in Parchment" and "Medieval Rural Life in the Luttrell Psalter" by Janet Backhouse, as well as utilizing research done by Mercenary30 in my old thread about this deck, and have come up with what I think is a pretty decent piece on the minors. I also borrowed heavily from "The Complete Idiots Guide to Tarot" and the LWB that comes with the deck. If there was a conflict between the two I went with the "Idiot's Guide." Haven't done the majors yet, and am not sure I will at least not right now, just because they aren't as obscure. If anyone would like this paper, thesis, booklet or whatever it could be called, PM me and I will gladly email it to you. :D Update: I'll just put this up here so it'll be easier to find, I got smart and uploaded it to the 'net: http://www.geocities.com/rmelizabeth01/OldEnglish.html?1082260547734

Lee	17 Apr 2004
Thanks for the offer, Shallot! You have a PM... -- Lee :)

Shalott	17 Apr 2004
Well it looks like the formatting got more messed up then I first realized. I'm going through and editing it now, if anyone would like me to resend it pls let me know, especially since, Fool-like, I already deleted all the messagesin the PM box! DOH! :/

Lee	17 Apr 2004
Just want to say, Shalott did a wonderful job with this. Anyone who has this deck would benefit greatly from reading it. -- Lee

lark	17 Apr 2004
Shalott if it's not to much trouble I would really love to have a copy. thank you :)

Shalott	17 Apr 2004
Thanks a heap for your kind words, Lee! 'Twas truly a labor of luv. :D

lark	17 Apr 2004
Wow Shalott that is wonderful! I'm going to print it out and keep it with my deck. If that's ok with you? Your love for the deck comes shinning through with every word. Thanks again.

Shalott	18 Apr 2004
Thanks everyone! I am very pleasantly surprised by the responses! Lark, yes, definitely, print save, anything you want! So I'm thinking DUH There might be an easier way of doing this, however since I've used so much from the "Complete Idiot's Guide to Tarot" I was a bit concerned about possible legal complications if I did this in any way other than P2P, but I'm not intending to make a dime off this, and fanfic gets uploaded (along with this disclaimer) so I've put in on Geocities. Since I've had to go back in and do some editing, I noticed I lost a bit on the 3 of Bunnies, er Batons, and other random sentences seemed to have disappeared, so here's the final edited version: http://www.geocities.com/rmelizabeth01/OldEnglish.html?1082260547734 :D

WolfyJames	18 Apr 2004
THANK YOU!!!

Shalott	18 Apr 2004
Soy-tanly!

Hedera	18 Apr 2004
Oooh, you just made me wanna get this deck......:D

lunakasha	18 Apr 2004
THANK YOU Shalott!!! This is GREAT.....now I can finally get some use out of these beautiful cards!!! :D You obviously put a lot of work into this...thanks again for sharing it with us! :D Luna

oceanpoetry	18 Apr 2004
this is wonderful! I have the deck - but haven't used it much lately - I can't wait to get it out again for a reading. Thanks so much for sharing this!

Aure	18 Apr 2004
Shalott, please send it to me as well!!! I PM'd you yesterday but I guess you deleted my message too... I don't have this deck yet but it is so pretty and it is on my list!!

Kissa	18 Apr 2004
Aure, go on the link Shalott gave on the previous page, it works great. Shalott ........ WOW!!!!!!!!! What a great job! I am saving it and plan to print it as soon as i get some black ink for this dear printer :D Thank you very much, Shalott. Thanks for doing the work and making it public the way you did. It is very generous of you. You must really love this deck for going thru so much trouble! Thumbs up! Now, guess what... i am going to do some archeological research in my closet to find this deck. It has this gentle and subtle atmosphere (nothing like the Middle Ages in the Golden Tarot), i love the colours and the details. The backs are the most beautiful backs i have ever seen in a deck IMHO, closely followed by the Tarot of Prague though. The dress of Temperance looks like batik and the Queen of Swords is gorgeous. Unfortunately, I have never used this deck for readings because the minors are so confusing well.. were so confusing! I think i will give it a shot after reading properly your Study. I thank you very very much!!! :* :* :* Kissa :D :D :D

Shalott	18 Apr 2004
Yes, I do love this deck - how excited I was, thanks to ppl in my old thread, to discover that there WAS a rhyme and reason...so I thought, if Maggie Kneen isn't going to do it, I might as well! Of course, I still wish she would, only she knows exactly why she choose certain images, a great many are accurate recreations straight from the Luttrell Psalter, the ones I found in these books are recreated in Coins, a lot of the harvesting scenes. I'm also happy she went light on the "babewyns." What were those ppl smoking when they drew those? LOL I love the backs, too, they looks so hand-drawn, like the pips. Something so quaint about that. I'm happy to help others get more out of this deck. Didn't want to hoard it all to myself! :)

Aure	19 Apr 2004
Shalott, thank you so much!!! :*:*:* I've been drawn to this deck ever since I first saw images of it in the web ánd I have actually once held the box in my hand in a book shop but didn't dare to buy it... I really like the art (and I also love Golden Tarot) but since I read here that it is hard to interpret since it falls between RWS, Marseilles and classic systems I hesitated in buying it. Well, now I have no reason for not buying it (unless having no money to invest in new decks and an irritated husband counts...)!

Jaelle	19 Apr 2004
wow!! now i love that deck even more! Thank you Shalott! :)

mercenary30	19 Apr 2004
You just saved me a tarot project!! It was on my list to do something very similar. I knew there had to be more meaning behind those "cute little pictures" on the minors. :D

Shalott	20 Apr 2004
Thanks, everyone! Mercenary, or anyone, if you have anything to add or any suggestions on making it more thorough, pls feel free to put in you 2 pents...or 2 of coins :D Aure: actually, the majors look more Marseilley, when you really look at them...except that Strength his still 8, but like the Sun, the Lovers, even the Fool is "aimed" the same way as Marseilles. And the sybolism isn't the esoteric Golden Dawn type stuff. I have a really good (how ironic) LWB that came with the Marseilles deck that I have (and is collecting large amounts of dust!). If I do write something for the majors I'll have to incorporate some of that. It's really a shame that Ms Kneen didn't write a book for this, the obscurity of her source material has obviously made this deck seem too daunting to a lot of us, heck it sat on my shelf for years with me wishing I "got" it. Well, I am glad it's helped y'all, the research helped me "get" it too at long last!

Xarokys	20 Apr 2004
Thanks for sharing this, Shalott. It looks like a lot of work and research went into it. The Old English wasn't a deck that spoke to me, but I think this will help me to understand it a little better. I'm going to print it out and go play with my Old English.

Aure	21 Apr 2004
Now I'm hoping someone would do a similar study on Tarot of Marseilles system. :) It would really be useful!

Shalott	21 Apr 2004
Aure ITA...Ahem...Diana? ;)

WolfyJames	23 Apr 2004
I have already thanked you for your hard work, you've made me understand this lovely deck better. I would like to add a few stuff to some cards though here, and you could tell me if you like it or not. I've noticed that the Two of Swords and the Four of swords are very similar, two opposant camps. Except that in the Two, there is no one, perharps they are in their tents, giving an impression of tension, each on their side, while on the Four, people are present, the card shows harmony and rest for a limited moment. As for the Seven of Swords, the knight cannot attack the dragon up front and directly, he will have to use his wits and come up with a cunning plan. As for the Nine of Swords, he is alone, no one is there to witness him burning, he is alone in his misery. As for the Four of Cups, I've seen this card sometimes as overflowing, having too much of something, causing boredom and ingratitude. The little boy has two pipes, and tries to play them both as once. Obviously, it can't be done, and he's not happy in this situation, and he's unsatisfied of his two pipes, even though many boys would love to have one pipe. He's being ungrateful with what he has. As for the Seven of Coins, it can mean frustration, when you have done a long work, and that it's not over yet, and that you feel like it's never ending, and that you start paying too much attention to details, and during that time, you stop working at what is needed to be done. And if you stop working on what is needed to be done (and focusing on details), then terrible things can happen, especially that the person is getting close to the end of the work and to enjoy the achievement from it. Which is exactly what is happening on this card. The woman has worked hard, she's on her way to (the market? barn?), and she decides to stop on her way there to count each grape to see how many there is (or how far she is, how much work she has done). During that time, the ravens are eating some grapes, and if the woman keeps not looking, her entire work could vanish.

Shalott	23 Apr 2004
Thanks for the input, WolfyJames. I see room to add much of what you said. As for the 7 of Coins, I disagree but I see your point. But that's your intution, so it won't necessarily have to mesh with mine. As for the 7 of Swords, that's kind of what I was getting at...I noticed I lost some sentences and what is one the site I'd hoped I'd gotten it all back but it's possible I didn't. The rest of ITA, I did kind of rush through this. The ideas you give here add a little more thoroughness. Sometime this weekend I may be able to add to it. Thanks!

fairyhedgehog	23 Apr 2004
I really like this deck, but I've struggled with the Cups as I couldn't see any link between the pictures and the meanings. So a particular thank you for your research on this - it really helps. I've saved your article for future reference.

WolfyJames	23 Apr 2004
For the Seven of Coins, I had my Enchanted Tarot in mind. The card's meaning is similar to Thoth. Fear, frustration, hesitation, which brings to a possible failure.

Shalott	24 Apr 2004
OOoo...I was trying to keep it as close to RWS as poss. I'm not remotely familiar with Thoth, but I do have Zerner-Farber high on my wish list...so this is good to know! But the crows are rather ominous, I can definitely see where you're coming from.

Shalott	24 Apr 2004
WolfyJames, I'm adding some of your additions as I type. By the time you return here, it should be done. :D

Aure	26 Apr 2004
Shalott, guess what your thread and study has done to me? It has made me consider getting the Old English... :) I'm thinking the deck would be good step from RWS to Marseilles... I am going to study the marseilles system, but it will take time and I don't want to totally abandon the RWS system...

Shalott	27 Apr 2004
Cool Aure! Ya know, the Majors are more like Marseilles, the minors RWS...odd indeed...since my first deck was...some sort of Marseilles clone, majors only, I feel much more comfy with these...Pixie's minor's are just...ingenious though. I wish she would've said, "Bleep you, Arth, I'm drawing these to match Marseilles meanings!" Going thru the Pictorial Key I just wanna smack the guy. Enough with the what it DOESN'T mean, tell me what it DOES mean!!! LOL

The Old English Minors Revisited thread was originally posted on 17 Apr 2004 in the Tarot Decks board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Decks, or read more archived threads.